Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning actiual statements by iran president

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

Excerpts:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
But let's take a closer look at what Iran's President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad said. It is a merit of the 'New York Times' that they
placed the complete speech at our disposal. Here's an excerpt from
the publication dated 2005-10-30:

"They say it is not possible to have a world without the United
States and Zionism. But you know that this is a possible goal...

------------------------------------------------------------------

As a precaution we will examine a different translation of the
speech - a version prepared by the Middle East Media Research
Institute (MEMRI), located in Washington:

"They [ask]: 'Is it possible for us to witness a world without
America and Zionism?' But you had best know that this slogan and
this goal are attainable, and surely can be achieved.
--------------------------------------------------------------

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

This is NOT the original link:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html

-Stephen

Excerpts below:

====================================================================

In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes
made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute with
the West.

Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust...

SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust
occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on the
extermination of the Jews...

Ahmadinejad: ...And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then you
should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research
this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? Of
course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.

SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"

Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually
convinced of it.

SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about the
Holocaust?

Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One group
of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say the
Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who
represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned
for the most part...

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

While i am sure the holocaust happened i too am uncomfortable to make it a crime to disagree.
If it happened then any disagreement can be dispelled by proof and evidence.

It is unscientific to be forced to take the word of others by force.
this way, having them underground, they I believe grow more cause they aren't stated in an arena where they would be easily dispelled with.

if it was against the law to state that the world was flat, while i might not think it was so, but would assume that maybe it isn't as they say it is.
stephenszpak wrote:
> This is NOT the original link:
>
> http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
>
> -Stephen
>
> Excerpts below:
>
> ====================================================================
>
> In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad > discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes > made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute with > the West.
>
>
> Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust...
>
> SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust > occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on the > extermination of the Jews...
>
> Ahmadinejad: ...And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then you > should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research > this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? Of > course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
>
> SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"
>
> Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually > convinced of it.
>
> SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about the > Holocaust?
>
> Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One group > of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say the > Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who > represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned > for the most part...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Afmmjr@...

Maybe it is more like yelling "fire!" in a movie theater. Holocaust denial is used for puposes of legitimizing anti-semitism. Sort of like a jury member believing something beyond a shadow of a doubt. Once there is doubt, all hell breaks loose.

Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: kraiggrady@...
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: actual statements by iran president

While i am sure the holocaust happened i too am uncomfortable to make it
a crime to disagree.
If it happened then any disagreement can be dispelled by proof and
evidence.

It is unscientific to be forced to take the word of others by force.

this way, having them underground, they I believe grow more cause they
aren't stated in an arena where they would be easily dispelled with.

if it was against the law to state that the world was flat, while i
might not think it was so, but would assume that maybe it isn't as they
say it is.

stephenszpak wrote:
> This is NOT the original link:
>
> http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
>
> -Stephen
>
> Excerpts below:
>
> ====================================================================
>
> In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
> discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes
> made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute with
> the West.
>
>
> Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust...
>
> SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust
> occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on the
> extermination of the Jews...
>
> Ahmadinejad: ...And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then you
> should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research
> this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? Of
> course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
>
> SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"
>
> Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually
> convinced of it.
>
> SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about the
> Holocaust?
>
> Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One group
> of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say the
> Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who
> represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned
> for the most part...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

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🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

agreed so bring out in the open and dismiss there stupid claims!

Afmmjr@... wrote:
> Maybe it is more like yelling "fire!" in a movie theater. Holocaust denial is used for puposes of legitimizing anti-semitism. Sort of like a jury member believing something beyond a shadow of a doubt. Once there is doubt, all hell breaks loose.
> > Johnny > > > -----Original Message-----
> From: kraiggrady@...
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 6:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: actual statements by iran president
>
>
> While i am sure the holocaust happened i too am uncomfortable to make it > a crime to disagree.
> If it happened then any disagreement can be dispelled by proof and > evidence.
>
> It is unscientific to be forced to take the word of others by force.
>
>
> this way, having them underground, they I believe grow more cause they > aren't stated in an arena where they would be easily dispelled with.
>
> if it was against the law to state that the world was flat, while i > might not think it was so, but would assume that maybe it isn't as they > say it is.
>
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> >> This is NOT the original link:
>>
>> http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
>>
>> -Stephen
>>
>> Excerpts below:
>>
>> ====================================================================
>>
>> In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad >> discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes >> made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute with >> the West.
>>
>>
>> Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust...
>>
>> SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust >> occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on the >> extermination of the Jews...
>>
>> Ahmadinejad: ...And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then you >> should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research >> this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? Of >> course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
>>
>> SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"
>>
>> Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually >> convinced of it.
>>
>> SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about the >> Holocaust?
>>
>> Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One group >> of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say the >> Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who >> represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned >> for the most part...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>> To post to the list, send to
>> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
(Please clarify "stupid claims".)

--------------------------------------------------------

> agreed so bring out in the open and dismiss there stupid claims!
>
> Afmmjr@... wrote:
> > Maybe it is more like yelling "fire!" in a movie theater.
Holocaust denial is used for puposes of legitimizing anti-semitism.
Sort of like a jury member believing something beyond a shadow of a
doubt. Once there is doubt, all hell breaks loose.
> >
> > Johnny
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kraiggrady@...
> > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 6:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: actual statements by iran president
> >
> >
> > While i am sure the holocaust happened i too am uncomfortable to
make it
> > a crime to disagree.
> > If it happened then any disagreement can be dispelled by proof
and
> > evidence.
> >
> > It is unscientific to be forced to take the word of others by
force.
> >
> >
> > this way, having them underground, they I believe grow more
cause they
> > aren't stated in an arena where they would be easily dispelled
with.
> >
> > if it was against the law to state that the world was flat,
while i
> > might not think it was so, but would assume that maybe it isn't
as they
> > say it is.
> >
> >
> > stephenszpak wrote:
> >
> >> This is NOT the original link:
> >>
> >>
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
> >>
> >> -Stephen
> >>
> >> Excerpts below:
> >>
> >>
====================================================================
> >>
> >> In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad
> >> discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel,
mistakes
> >> made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute
with
> >> the West.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust...
> >>
> >> SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust
> >> occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on
the
> >> extermination of the Jews...
> >>
> >> Ahmadinejad: ...And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then
you
> >> should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research
> >> this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? Of
> >> course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
> >>
> >> SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a
myth?"
> >>
> >> Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am
actually
> >> convinced of it.
> >>
> >> SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about
the
> >> Holocaust?
> >>
> >> Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One
group
> >> of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say
the
> >> Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who
> >> represent the opposite position and have therefore been
imprisoned
> >> for the most part...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >>
> >> To post to the list, send to
> >> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> You don't have to be a member to post.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

it is obvious what i mean by stupid claims . don't imply things i obviously have not said, nor support.

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> > wrote:
> > (Please clarify "stupid claims".)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> >> agreed so bring out in the open and dismiss there stupid claims!
>>
>> Afmmjr@... wrote:
>> >>> Maybe it is more like yelling "fire!" in a movie theater. >>> > Holocaust denial is used for puposes of legitimizing anti-semitism. > Sort of like a jury member believing something beyond a shadow of a > doubt. Once there is doubt, all hell breaks loose.
> >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: kraiggrady@...
>>> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 6:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: actual statements by iran president
>>>
>>>
>>> While i am sure the holocaust happened i too am uncomfortable to >>> > make it > >>> a crime to disagree.
>>> If it happened then any disagreement can be dispelled by proof >>> > and > >>> evidence.
>>>
>>> It is unscientific to be forced to take the word of others by >>> > force.
> >>> this way, having them underground, they I believe grow more >>> > cause they > >>> aren't stated in an arena where they would be easily dispelled >>> > with.
> >>> if it was against the law to state that the world was flat, >>> > while i > >>> might not think it was so, but would assume that maybe it isn't >>> > as they > >>> say it is.
>>>
>>>
>>> stephenszpak wrote:
>>> >>> >>>> This is NOT the original link:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
> >>>> -Stephen
>>>>
>>>> Excerpts below:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > ====================================================================
> >>>> In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud >>>> > Ahmadinejad > >>>> discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, >>>> > mistakes > >>>> made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute >>>> > with > >>>> the West.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust...
>>>>
>>>> SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust >>>> occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on >>>> > the > >>>> extermination of the Jews...
>>>>
>>>> Ahmadinejad: ...And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then >>>> > you > >>>> should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research >>>> this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? Of >>>> course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
>>>>
>>>> SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a >>>> > myth?"
> >>>> Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am >>>> > actually > >>>> convinced of it.
>>>>
>>>> SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about >>>> > the > >>>> Holocaust?
>>>>
>>>> Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One >>>> > group > >>>> of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say >>>> > the > >>>> Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who >>>> represent the opposite position and have therefore been >>>> > imprisoned > >>>> for the most part...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>>> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>>>
>>>> To post to the list, send to
>>>> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>> You don't have to be a member to post.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Kraig Grady
>> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>> The Wandering Medicine Show
>> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

OK, I'm going to jump in here...

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> it is obvious what i mean by stupid claims . don't imply things i
> obviously have not said, nor support.
>
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > (Please clarify "stupid claims".)

Kraig is referring to the stupid claims that the Holocaust did not
happen. If you read the entire thread, you will see it leading up to a
discussion of bringing claims like this in the open and debunking them.

All of this would be SO, SO MUCH EASIER if people had the
consideration and took the time to trim replies. Much of this thread
is nearly unreadable, with the sections quoting from others being
completely unclear. Stephen, I have to single you out, as in many of
your replies it is difficult or impossible to tell what are your
statements and what are other people's. There isn't any hope for a
discussion in this kind of forum if people don't want to make their
messages clear.

Best,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
Kraig

I must assume you meant that Ahmadinejad's claims are stupid.
(This was clearer after I hit the SEND button.)
Specifically, he does not believe or disbelieve that the
Holocaust occured.

/metatuning/topicId_11114.html#11121

All the documentation of that time is insufficient for
Ahmadinejad to accept that millions of Jews were murdered.
(As far as "so bring out in the open" , there isn't anything
hidden.)

Yet he believes and prays for the return of someone dead
for over 1000 years.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1519153/posts

http://analysis.threatswatch.org/2005/11/

(back in a few days)

-Stephen

> it is obvious what i mean by stupid claims . don't imply things i
> obviously have not said, nor support.
>
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > (Please clarify "stupid claims".)
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >> agreed so bring out in the open and dismiss there stupid claims!
> >>
> >> Afmmjr@ wrote:
> >>
> >>> Maybe it is more like yelling "fire!" in a movie theater...
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

April 2006

The president of Iran again lashed out at Israel on Friday and said
it was "heading toward annihilation," just days after Tehran raised
fears about its nuclear activities by saying it successfully
enriched uranium for the first time.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called Israel a "permanent threat" to
the Middle East...

"Like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation,"
Ahmadinejad said at the opening of a conference in support of the
Palestinians. "The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will
be eliminated by one storm."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-04-14-iran-israel_x.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------

Jan 2005 (last year)

Iranian president-elect Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Monday the
Lebanon's Hizbullah is a "symbol of pure thought of Islam" in
Lebanon and at the forefront of the Islamic world.

Ahmadinejad made the remark in a meeting with leader of the Shiite
movement Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, who is currently in Tehran on an
official visit.

"Success, victories and progress of this popular and faithful force
in political, cultural, social and military domains of Lebanon are
results of purity and reliance on God's will...

http://www.albawaba.com/en/news/187110

----------------------------------------------------------------

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Entire post below is from Stephen >>>>>>>

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-
A3CE0E9957EA.htm

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:

Oct 2005

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world
oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a
conference in Tehran...

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said
Ahmadinejad,...

"Anyone who signs a treaty which recognises the entity of Israel
means he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world," Ahmadinejad
said.

It dates backs hundreds of years. Sometimes Islam has advanced.
Sometimes nobody was winning. Unfortunately over the past 300 years,
the world of Islam has been in retreat," he lamented.
"One hundred years ago the last trench of Islam fell, when the
oppressors went towards the creation the Zionist regime. It is using
it as a fort to spread its aims in the heart of the Islamic world."

Comments and quotes from My Struggle below:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/kampf.htm

Mein Kampf also provides an explanation for the military conquests
later attempted by Hitler and the Germans. Hitler states that since
the Aryans are the master race, they are entitled simply by that
fact to acquire more land for themselves. This Lebensraum, or living
space, will be acquired by force...

/metatuning/topicId_11105.html#11108

**********************

But it is the Jews, Hitler says, who are engaged in a conspiracy to
keep this master race from assuming its rightful position as rulers
of the world, by tainting its racial and cultural purity and even
inventing forms of government in which the Aryan comes to believe in
equality and fails to recognize his racial superiority.

"The mightiest counterpart to the Aryan is represented by the Jew."

====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================

http://www.megaessays.com/viewpaper/79087.html

"...today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
fighting for the work of the Lord" [Mein Kampf p. 60]

🔗monz <monz@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
>
> > http://www.megaessays.com/viewpaper/79087.html
> >
> > "...today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
of
> > the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
> > fighting for the work of the Lord" [Mein Kampf p. 60]
>
>
> Unfortunately, there are all too many nut-cases who say
> "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
> the Almighty Creator".
>
> One of them is pretending to be the leader of the USA right now.
>
>
> -monz

POST ABOVE IS FROM MONZ >>>>

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>

Monz

Hitler was one. Ahmadinejad is another. I've been thinking lately
why it is so hard for people to believe that Ahmadinejad really
wants to destroy Israel AND the United States of America.
I've come to understand that it is indeed
a faith-based concept. They just don't *believe* Ahmadinejad.

I have posted quotes by him, but they are regarded as rhetoric.

3000 rockets sent into Israel. Still not evidence of anything.

Hezbollah attacks that have killed Americans over the years.
Never killed anyone I knew.

(By the way Monz, there are some people that do God's will.)

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

==============================================================

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> On 8/19/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > (By the way Monz, there are some people that do God's will.)
> >
> > -Stephen

==============================================================

POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> But how do you know which one? I can claim just as vehemently that
> person A is doing God's Will and B is not, while you claim that B
is
> doing God's Will and A is not. The problem is that neither of us
has
> superior moral authority. A preacher may have authority over his
> congregation, but outside of that congregation he does not. There
are
> even people who believe Fred Phelps is doing God's Will. What
> specifically makes you better informed than them? Or me?
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
==============================================================

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

TRISTAN

(I'm going to assume your questions are not rhetorical.)

This goes back to here:

/metatuning/topicId_11114.html#11142

Hitler said in My Struggle, from another translation:

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt

And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the
will
of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am
defending the handiwork of the Lord.

Sometimes it is easier to understand God's will, other times
it is harder. Hitler believed it was God's will to kill every
Jew on earth. He killed about 6,000,000. Others during Hitler's
time in power believed it was NOT God's will.

(By the way, Hilter didn't just go after the Jews. He went
after other groups as well.)

Ahmadinejad wants nukes to destroy the Jewish state. The
destruction of the Jewish state is not God's will.

Do you agree with my thoughts here?

As for your comments here:

"What specifically makes you better informed than them? Or me?"

I guess all this goes back to, 'Does Israel have a right to
exist? Is it a real country?' How can anyone know these things?

I suppose one has to go back to the beginning. Many truths can
only be known by divine revelation. Just knowing you have a soul
is a good example.

***********
Also, any preacher that believes along these lines:

"A preacher may have authority over his
congregation"

needs counselling.

***********

P.S. I try not to come off "vehemently". Guess I'm failing.

P.S. I did read your post about that unfortunate incident.
Post more on that if you wish.

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 8/26/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> I guess all this goes back to, 'Does Israel have a right to
> exist? Is it a real country?' How can anyone know these things?

Well, it seems pretty clear that if Israel wants to be accepted as a
country, it had better start acting like one. I certainly feel for the
people living there, but if the government can't act like a
responsible world citizen then maybe they need to step down and let
someone competent do the job. And yes, if pressed, I will admit that I
feel exactly the same way about America.

I'm not talking about invading West Bank, kidnapping Palestinians,
whatever. Everyone does that. It's those little excursions just across
the Lebanese border that reek of provocation.

> I suppose one has to go back to the beginning. Many truths can
> only be known by divine revelation. Just knowing you have a soul
> is a good example.

Or that under certain circumstances you must marry many women, or that
under no circumstances may you marry any women, or that homosexuals
don't have souls, or that they do, or that the Jews need
exterminating, or that they don't.
Divine Revelation is a fickle beast.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

or that the Jews need
> exterminating, or that they don't.
> Divine Revelation is a fickle beast.
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
===============================================================

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

TRISTAN

If you believe that it doesn't matter if the Jewish race is
exterminated, this is a belief.

If you believe that it is good for the Jewish race to be
exterminated, this is a belief.

If you believe that the Jews should be protected from
extermination, this is a belief.

The truth is not fickle.

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> On 8/26/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > The truth is not fickle.
>
> I never said that the Truth was fickle. The problem is, all of
these
> contradicting things have been claimed to be Truth, revealed by
God,
> etcetera. To say that my divine revelation is real and yours is a
> delusion is arrogant and deadly.
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

TRISTAN

Example of a man who believed his divine revelation was
real enough to risk his life.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/world/main1449498.shtml

Italy granted asylum Wednesday to Abdul Rahman, an Afghan man who
faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity,
and Premier Silvio Berlusconi said the man arrived in Italy earlier
in the day.

"I say that we are very glad to be able to welcome someone who
has been so courageous," Berlusconi told Associated Press Television
News.

-Stephen

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

he didn't do anything Mussolini wouldn't have done

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane" > <rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
>
> POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> >> On 8/26/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>>
>> >>> The truth is not fickle.
>>> >> I never said that the Truth was fickle. The problem is, all of >> > these
> >> contradicting things have been claimed to be Truth, revealed by >> > God,
> >> etcetera. To say that my divine revelation is real and yours is a
>> delusion is arrogant and deadly.
>>
>> --TRISTAN
>> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>> >
> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> TRISTAN
>
> Example of a man who believed his divine revelation was
> real enough to risk his life. >
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/world/main1449498.shtml
>
> Italy granted asylum Wednesday to Abdul Rahman, an Afghan man who > faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity, > and Premier Silvio Berlusconi said the man arrived in Italy earlier > in the day. >
> "I say that we are very glad to be able to welcome someone who > has been so courageous," Berlusconi told Associated Press Television > News. >
> -Stephen
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 8/26/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > These are some of Ahmadinejad's beliefs:
> >
> > "They [ask]: 'Is it possible for us to witness a world without
> > America and Zionism?' But you had best know that this slogan and
> > this goal are attainable, and surely can be achieved.
>
> I would love to see a world without Zionism, without Nationalism of
> any kind. I don't think Ahmadinejad's *methods* are something I
could
> ever condone, and that is why I refuse to associate with him.
>
> --TRISTAN
> The Four Principles of Anarchism:
> 1) Reason
> 2) Mutual Aid
> 3) Voluntary Association
> 4)Consensus
>
POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

TRISTAN

If I'm understanding you, you want a end to all countries.
No Israel. No America. A world state.
*************
/metatuning/topicId_11153.html#11153

MUSTAPHA MOND

Resident World Controller of Western Europe. He presides over one of
the ten zones of the World State, the global government set up after
the cataclysmic Nine Years' War and great Economic Collapse.

He defends...lack of personal freedom in
the World State as a price worth paying for achieving social
stability. Stability is the highest social virtue because it leads
to lasting happiness.
*************

We live in a world that has real evil. The evil beliefs of
Iran's leaders and Hezbollah's leaders must be meet with
opposing beliefs. This scares many people. They believe it
results in war (ie. instability). If Muslims wanted to go to
their mosques worldwide, and do their thing, and that was it,
the world wouldn't be in this war. We live in the time we
were put in. We must not respond to evil with fear or
indifference. Else evil gets stronger.

Why does history repeat itself (the rise of Hitler for
example)? Human nature doesn't change. If the countries
of Europe attacked Hitler before we got powerful there
would have been millions killed. But they waited. World
War 2 resulted in ten's of millions killed instead.

-Stephen

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

I've been reading the al jazeera magazine responses by mostly Muslims from around the world. There are a few in a minority (even an Israeli, or 2) that have differeing points of view.

Really, it reminds me of the Brooklyn street mentality, of which I have had plenty of experience. Here I am speaking of concrete jungle one-upmanship, a sort of "I dare you to cross this line!" and heaping non-stop verbal abuse in what are called "rank out sessions."

This is really too bad. How can music survive these conditions? What kind of life survives the venom that is now flowing throughout the internet? Should we call Ghostbusters?

Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: stephen_szpak@...
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:25 AM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: actual statements by iran president

TRISTAN

If I'm understanding you, you want a end to all countries.
No Israel. No America. A world state.
*************
/metatuning/topicId_11153.html#11153

MUSTAPHA MOND

Resident World Controller of Western Europe. He presides over one of
the ten zones of the World State, the global government set up after
the cataclysmic Nine Years' War and great Economic Collapse.

-Stephen

________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 8/27/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
> <rozencrantz@...> wrote:
> > I would love to see a world without Zionism, without Nationalism of
> > any kind.
> TRISTAN
>
> If I'm understanding you, you want a end to all countries.
> No Israel. No America. A world state.

You have so completely misunderstood me that I begin to wonder if you
actually want to understand me. I really don't want to sound
condescending, because I'm serious when I say that it's your choice.

Regardless: Nationalism is not the presence of a nation, it is the
belief that the nation is an end in itself, and the most important of
political entities. The idea that Jewish people need their own country
just because they're Jewish seems patently absurd to me, especially
when they place it in such a volatile area, and go further to
deliberately provoke their neighbors, it reeks of persecution complex.

> MUSTAPHA MOND
>
> Resident World Controller of Western Europe. He presides over one of
> the ten zones of the World State, the global government set up after
> the cataclysmic Nine Years' War and great Economic Collapse.
>
> He defends...lack of personal freedom in
> the World State as a price worth paying for achieving social
> stability. Stability is the highest social virtue because it leads
> to lasting happiness.

Aldus Huxley was writing a dystopia. That's no reason to believe that
a world state would ever really turn out that way. I'm not saying a
World State is needed, or even desireable, only that it does not
immediately preclude personal liberty.

--TRISTAN
The Four Principles of Anarchism:
1) Reason
2) Mutual Aid
3) Voluntary Association
4)Consensus

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>

TRISTAN

(Since I know no one here, and no one here knows me, we are
all left with some confusion.)

I guess you think it is absurd that the French have a emotional
attachment to their country. The Japanese to their island.
The Egyptians to the Nile.
*****************

"Anti-Zionism" is intrinsically antisemitic: it's saying that,
unlike all other peoples on the planet, the Jews have no right to a
national state.

Zionism is the national liberation struggle of the Jewish people -
no more, no less.

In the 1930s, the antisemites used to yell: "Jews go to Palestine",
now they cry: "Jews out of Palestine". - Go figure.

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002134.php
=================================================================

OLD POSTS BELOW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> On 8/27/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
> > <rozencrantz@> wrote:
> > > I would love to see a world without Zionism, without
Nationalism of
> > > any kind.
> > TRISTAN
> >
> > If I'm understanding you, you want a end to all countries.
> > No Israel. No America. A world state.
>
> You have so completely misunderstood me that I begin to wonder if
you
> actually want to understand me. I really don't want to sound
> condescending, because I'm serious when I say that it's your
choice.
>
> Regardless: Nationalism is not the presence of a nation, it is the
> belief that the nation is an end in itself, and the most important
of
> political entities. The idea that Jewish people need their own
country
> just because they're Jewish seems patently absurd to me, especially
> when they place it in such a volatile area, and go further to
> deliberately provoke their neighbors, it reeks of persecution
complex.
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
Regardless: Nationalism is not the presence of a nation, it is the
> belief that the nation is an end in itself, and the most important of
> political entities. The idea that Jewish people need their own
country
> just because they're Jewish seems patently absurd to me, especially
> when they place it in such a volatile area...

POST ABOVE FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>

POST BELOW FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>

Alaska has been suggested as a place the Jews could go, twice.

----------------------------------------------------------

"If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe,
the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel," Ahmadinejad said.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/

----------------------------------------------------------

The competition was on: who'll suggest a more remote and less
hospitable exile in which to dump those whom the British Foreign
Office labeled "unwanted Jews." The motivation wasn't much more
beneficent than Hitler's initial choice of Madagascar.

Mussolini was the one who changed direction northwards. Instead of
exposing Berlin's urbane Jews to the rigors of the tropics, he opined
that the Siberian Arctic might be a preferable hardship.
Coincidentally
or not, Washington soon thereafter launched plans to deposit Jews
in Siberia's adjacent neighbor, Alaska - then an American territory.

http://www.jr.co.il/articles/north-to-alaska.txt

http://www.akhistorycourse.org/articles/article.php?artID=214

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 8/27/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> Alaska has been suggested as a place the Jews could go, twice.

It's a beautiful state, nice weather a lot of the time, natural
splendor like you can't imagine, the works. And a damn sight more
fertile than a desert choked with uranium shells and surrounded by
actively hostile neighbours.

> "If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe,
> the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel," Ahmadinejad said.

An excellent idea, but hard to do right, look at the Rez. Some might
say we already gave them New York, but that's not really the same.

> The competition was on: who'll suggest a more remote and less
> hospitable exile in which to dump those whom the British Foreign
> Office labeled "unwanted Jews." The motivation wasn't much more
> beneficent than Hitler's initial choice of Madagascar.

I never said it had to be remote. Parts of New York already have a
very strong Jewish nationality, and there was talk in the 30's of
establishing a Jewish state in Manchuria, then part of Japan, who did
little short of handing the entire "race" an engraved invitation,
complete with a visa to anyone who asked for it (and thousands of them
did.)

--TRISTAN
The Four Principles of Anarchism:
1) Reason
2) Mutual Aid
3) Voluntary Association
4) Consensus

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 8/27/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> I guess you think it is absurd that the French have a emotional
> attachment to their country. The Japanese to their island.
> The Egyptians to the Nile.

That's not exactly a valid comparison. Is it absurd to have an
attachment to the place you grew up, the hills where you learned to
camp, the woods where you learned to climb trees? Not at all.

Is it absurd to think that you have more right to be somewhere, that
you have a right to forcibly eject people from their homes because
several millenia (!) ago someone lived there, who genetically is no
more closely related to you than he is to the people you're kicking
out? I whole-heartedly believe the answer is YES.

> "Anti-Zionism" is intrinsically antisemitic: it's saying that,
> unlike all other peoples on the planet, the Jews have no right to a
> national state.

All other peoples? You mean like the Federated States of Presbyteria?
Or how about Blackistan? The Republic of Bayou Cajuns? More seriously,
where is Aynu-topia? Why don't the Kurds have a national state? or the
Sunnis, or the Shiites? How about the Tuvans and Altai in central
Russia, the Shona in Zimbabwe, the !Kung San in South Africa, the 55
Tribes of China, or the hundreds of tribes that have to share Papua
New Guinea?

There is no unalienable right to a national state. I live in America,
but ethnically I'm Welsh, Lithuanian, Iroquois, French, Presbyterian,
British, Jewish, and probably more. I speak English, watch Japanese
movies, and read Chinese books. I listen to German music and eat
Vietnamese food. I worship a Coptic god. Every human comes from a
unique background formed from the interactions with thousands of other
people and cultural textures. Does that mean that everyone deserves
their own country?

In fact, I would argue that the very idea of a Nation is a difficult
and dangerous one. The fact is that every human on this planet is
struggling to do serve their basic human needs in whatever way they
have at hand. Banding together is a good way to serve these needs
better, but what criteria should we use to form these bands? I work to
improve, as best I can, the lives of musicians, people I love, and
Tibetan orphans. I am served by my parents, teachers, musicians, the
people I love, and members of the World Entrepreneur Organization. Why
would I ever think to limit myself to people who claim to be related
to one person?

--TRISTAN
The Four Principles of Anarchism:
1) Reason
2) Mutual Aid
3) Voluntary Association
4) Consensus

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

TRISTAN WROTE:

"Is it absurd to think that you have more right to be somewhere,
that you have a right to forcibly eject people from their homes..."

This is how America was founded. The Indians (native Americans now)
were pushed out of where they lived and put in reservations.
1000's killed as well.
This happened long before you were born and you had nothing to do
with it, yet you live here and take advantage of any and all areas
of the country. Not just east of the Mississippi where the Iroquois
were but west as well. You live in one nation with your purchasing
money and tax money going where ever it goes every day.
Knowing all this you have not renounced your American
citizenship in protest. (or have you?)

TRISTAN WROTE:

"In fact, I would argue that the very idea of a Nation is a difficult
and dangerous one."

Castro agrees. There will always be opposition to the creation of
a new country. Look at Cuba. What would happen if a significant
percentage (or even 1 person) said "Hey lets form a new country
on the Eastern half of Cuba. Let Castro have Havana and the
Western half. We want freedom." Well Castro would kill them all
before breakfast without giving it a second thought.

Why do I bring up Cuba? It is a excellent example of a single
world. It shows what can happen if a single evil man (Castro) or a
single evil idea ("The only religion that will exist anywhere will
be Islam.") is permitted to dominate the earth.

Re-post of excerpt from A Brave New World:

"But God's the reason for everything noble and fine and heroic. If
you had a God..."

"My dear young friend," said Mustapha Mond, "civilization has
absolutely no need of nobility or heroism. These things are symptoms
of political inefficiency. In a properly organized society like
ours, nobody has any opportunities for being noble or heroic.
Conditions have got to be thoroughly unstable before the occasion
can arise. Where there are wars, where there are divided
allegiances, where there are temptations to be resisted, objects of
love to be fought for or defendedthere, obviously, nobility and
heroism have some sense. But there aren't any wars nowadays.

POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> On 8/27/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> > I guess you think it is absurd that the French have a emotional
> > attachment to their country. The Japanese to their island.
> > The Egyptians to the Nile.
>
> That's not exactly a valid comparison. Is it absurd to have an
> attachment to the place you grew up, the hills where you learned to
> camp, the woods where you learned to climb trees? Not at all.
>
> Is it absurd to think that you have more right to be somewhere,
that
> you have a right to forcibly eject people from their homes because
> several millenia (!) ago someone lived there, who genetically is no
> more closely related to you than he is to the people you're kicking
> out? I whole-heartedly believe the answer is YES.
>
> > "Anti-Zionism" is intrinsically antisemitic: it's saying that,
> > unlike all other peoples on the planet, the Jews have no right
to a
> > national state.
>
> All other peoples? You mean like the Federated States of
Presbyteria?
> Or how about Blackistan? The Republic of Bayou Cajuns? More
seriously,
> where is Aynu-topia? Why don't the Kurds have a national state? or
the
> Sunnis, or the Shiites? How about the Tuvans and Altai in central
> Russia, the Shona in Zimbabwe, the !Kung San in South Africa, the
55
> Tribes of China, or the hundreds of tribes that have to share Papua
> New Guinea?
>
> There is no unalienable right to a national state. I live in
America,
> but ethnically I'm Welsh, Lithuanian, Iroquois, French,
Presbyterian,
> British, Jewish, and probably more. I speak English, watch Japanese
> movies, and read Chinese books. I listen to German music and eat
> Vietnamese food. I worship a Coptic god. Every human comes from a
> unique background formed from the interactions with thousands of
other
> people and cultural textures. Does that mean that everyone deserves
> their own country?
>
> In fact, I would argue that the very idea of a Nation is a
difficult
> and dangerous one. The fact is that every human on this planet is
> struggling to do serve their basic human needs in whatever way they
> have at hand. Banding together is a good way to serve these needs
> better, but what criteria should we use to form these bands? I
work to
> improve, as best I can, the lives of musicians, people I love, and
> Tibetan orphans. I am served by my parents, teachers, musicians,
the
> people I love, and members of the World Entrepreneur Organization.
Why
> would I ever think to limit myself to people who claim to be
related
> to one person?
>
> --TRISTAN
> The Four Principles of Anarchism:
> 1) Reason
> 2) Mutual Aid
> 3) Voluntary Association
> 4) Consensus
>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 8/30/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
> <rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>> "Is it absurd to think that you have more right to be somewhere,
>> that you have a right to forcibly eject people from their homes..."
>
> This is how America was founded.

The irony isn't lost on me.

> The Indians (native Americans now)
> were pushed out of where they lived and put in reservations.
> 1000's killed as well.

Billions.

> Knowing all this you have not renounced your American
> citizenship in protest. (or have you?)

I fully intend to. I'm still young and living on a borrowed income,
but when (if) I have to pay taxes, I fully intend to refuse/flee the
country. We need more people like Ehren Watada, who can commit civil
disobedience, challenge the laws in court. Even if you don't agree
with his cause, I think his methods are noble, and he didn't have to
blow himself up, trespass, or kowtow to big-business, which is always
a plus.

> TRISTAN WROTE:
>
> "In fact, I would argue that the very idea of a Nation is a difficult
> and dangerous one."
>
> Castro agrees.

And Hitler was a vegetarian. So? I might point out, incidentally, that
Castro, despite his many shortcomings, is infinitely preferable to
Batista

> Why do I bring up Cuba? It is a excellent example of a single
> world. It shows what can happen if a single evil man (Castro) or a
> single evil idea ("The only religion that will exist anywhere will
> be Islam.") is permitted to dominate the earth.

And that should be prevented. How about the evil idea that getting
more than you need at any expense is the highest and noblest cause
(capitalism)? Or the idea that your benefit is always my loss
(competition)? Or the idea that governments should not be accountable
to the people they serve? Or the idea that people can't think for
themselves? Or the idea that by having ancestors from a certain area
makes you illiterate and lazy?

> Re-post of excerpt from A Brave New World:

I don't see what this has to do with anything, except that it drives
home the idea that rulers are uniformly despicable, a-la Douglas
Adams. (Anyone who deliberately seeks out power is not qualified to
wield it)

--TRISTAN
The Four Principles of Anarchism:
1) Reason
2) Mutual Aid
3) Voluntary Association
4)Consensus

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Iran To Host Holocaust Conference

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/03/world/main1962978.shtml?
CMP=ILC-SearchStories
------------------------------------------------------------------

Germany Condemns Proposed Iranian Holocaust Conference

The Iranian government's announcement that it plans to hold a
conference on the Holocaust with notorious deniers as guests has
caused outrage in Germany.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1860064,00.html

------------------------------------------------------------------

December 14, 2005 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speaks:

"Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of
Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets
This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the
United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can
establish their country."

(Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/ahmadinejad_words
.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------

"He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls
the present, controls the past." -- George Orwell
------------------------------------------------------------------

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

and what bothers you about part of Europe being given to the jews.
I propose switzerland who made the most money off their goods, property and wealth , that if really added up what was owed the jews would be equivalent to the whole country.

my only objection is thatit is too late

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" > <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> >> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Iran To Host Holocaust Conference >
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/03/world/main1962978.shtml?
> CMP=ILC-SearchStories
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Germany Condemns Proposed Iranian Holocaust Conference >
> The Iranian government's announcement that it plans to hold a > conference on the Holocaust with notorious deniers as guests has > caused outrage in Germany. >
>
>
> http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1860064,00.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> December 14, 2005 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speaks:
>
> >
> "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of > Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets > ï¿½ This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the > United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can > establish their country."
>
> (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)
>
>
>
>
> http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/ahmadinejad_words
> .htm
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls > the present, controls the past." -- George Orwell
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Kraig

The Jews are on their ancestral homeland. I hope that America
would support them *there*.

What many in Amercia and elsewhere don't realize is that it IS
about the Jews. That is, the Jews are the first. The poem
"First they came..." is what I'm refering to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

I don't know if the quote below is about Hitler or not, but
it reminds me of what is going on these days with Ahmadinejad,
and his desire to destroy Israel. Anti-semitism.

Don't rejoice in his defeat, you men. Although the world stood up
and stopped the Bastard, the Bitch that bore him is in heat again.

(Bertolt Brecht)

back another day,

-Stephen
===================================================================
POST BELOW IS FROM KRAIG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> and what bothers you about part of Europe being given to the jews.
> I propose switzerland who made the most money off their goods,
property
> and wealth , that if really added up what was owed the jews would
be
> equivalent to the whole country.
>
> my only objection is thatit is too late
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> > <stephen_szpak@> wrote:
> >
> >> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> > Iran To Host Holocaust Conference
> >
> >
> >
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/03/world/main1962978.shtml?
> > CMP=ILC-SearchStories
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > Germany Condemns Proposed Iranian Holocaust Conference
> >
> > The Iranian government's announcement that it plans to hold a
> > conference on the Holocaust with notorious deniers as guests has
> > caused outrage in Germany.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1860064,00.html
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > December 14, 2005 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speaks:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of
> > Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the
prophets
> > This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe,
the
> > United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews
can
> > establish their country."
> >
> > (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/ahmadinejad_words
> > .htm
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > "He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who
controls
> > the present, controls the past." -- George Orwell
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Afmmjr@...

I'm sure Kraig understands that power trumps entitlements when it comes to homelands. We are certainly not going to turn back the clock in the New World, and the same is true in Israel.

All other arguments pale in realpolitik. There isn't a country on the planet that doesn't recognize this reality. Only a religion can ignore this reality. Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: stephen_szpak@...
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 9:49 PM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: actual statements by iran president

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Kraig

The Jews are on their ancestral homeland. I hope that America
would support them *there*.

What many in Amercia and elsewhere don't realize is that it IS
about the Jews. That is, the Jews are the first. The poem
"First they came..." is what I'm refering to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

I don't know if the quote below is about Hitler or not, but
it reminds me of what is going on these days with Ahmadinejad,
and his desire to destroy Israel. Anti-semitism.

Don't rejoice in his defeat, you men. Although the world stood up
and stopped the Bastard, the Bitch that bore him is in heat again.

(Bertolt Brecht)

back another day,

-Stephen
===================================================================
POST BELOW IS FROM KRAIG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> and what bothers you about part of Europe being given to the jews.
> I propose switzerland who made the most money off their goods,
property
> and wealth , that if really added up what was owed the jews would
be
> equivalent to the whole country.
>
> my only objection is thatit is too late
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> > <stephen_szpak@> wrote:
> >
> >> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
---
> > Iran To Host Holocaust Conference
> >
> >
> >
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/03/world/main1962978.shtml?
> > CMP=ILC-SearchStories
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > Germany Condemns Proposed Iranian Holocaust Conference
> >
> > The Iranian government's announcement that it plans to hold a
> > conference on the Holocaust with notorious deniers as guests has
> > caused outrage in Germany.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1860064,00.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > December 14, 2005 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speaks:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of
> > Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the
prophets
> > … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe,
the
> > United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews
can
> > establish their country."
> >
> > (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/ahmadinejad_words
> > .htm
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > "He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who
controls
> > the present, controls the past." -- George Orwell
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>

TRISTAN

So you want this area to be given to the Spokanes as a separate
country:

The Spokane Indians are of the Interior Salish group which has
inhabited northeastern Washington, northern Idaho, and western
Montana for centuries.

http://www.wellpinit.wednet.edu/sal-cos/cos_ch01.php

What about the:

The Apache, Blackfeet,Cherokee, Navajo, and Sioux?

So if you could make it so in an instant, each of these tribes
would get their own homeland, ie. country? You would want a end
of the United State of America?

An end of democracy too I assume. How could any of the dozens
of native American tribes maintain politcal power in a given
'country'
with a 'one man one vote' concept, since they are minorities
in all parts of the lower 48?

-Stephen

> >

POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Right. Just like America supports the Spokanes on their ancestral
homeland.
>
> --TRISTAN
> The Four Principles of Anarchism:
> 1) Reason
> 2) Mutual Aid
> 3) Voluntary Association
> 4)Consensus
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Johnny

I think I understand Kriag as well.

These are quotes from Ahmadinejad:

If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces
in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the
Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe.

Also:

A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel.

http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/ahmadinejad_words
.htm

The belief shared by millions of Arabs, is that Israel should
move or they will be destroyed. Neither is going to happen.

-Stephen

POST BELOW IS FROM JOHNNY >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> I'm sure Kraig understands that power trumps entitlements when it
comes to homelands. We are certainly not going to turn back the
clock in the New World, and the same is true in Israel.
>
> All other arguments pale in realpolitik. There isn't a country on
the planet that doesn't recognize this reality. Only a religion can
ignore this reality. Johnny
>
>
> >
===================================================================
> POST BELOW IS FROM KRAIG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> >
> > and what bothers you about part of Europe being given to the
jews.
> > I propose switzerland who made the most money off their goods,
> property
> > and wealth , that if really added up what was owed the jews
would
> be
> > equivalent to the whole country.
> >
> > my only objection is thatit is too late
> >
> > stephenszpak wrote:
> > > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> > > <stephen_szpak@> wrote:
> > >
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Make up your mind you are completely hypocritical. either a land is a people land or not

stephenszpak wrote:
> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> TRISTAN
>
> So you want this area to be given to the Spokanes as a separate
> country:
>
> The Spokane Indians are of the Interior Salish group which has > inhabited northeastern Washington, northern Idaho, and western > Montana for centuries. >
> http://www.wellpinit.wednet.edu/sal-cos/cos_ch01.php
>
> What about the:
>
> The Apache, Blackfeet,Cherokee, Navajo, and Sioux?
>
> So if you could make it so in an instant, each of these tribes
> would get their own homeland, ie. country? You would want a end
> of the United State of America? >
> An end of democracy too I assume. How could any of the dozens
> of native American tribes maintain politcal power in a given > 'country'
> with a 'one man one vote' concept, since they are minorities > in all parts of the lower 48?
>
> -Stephen
>
>
> >
> POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> >> Right. Just like America supports the Spokanes on their ancestral >> > homeland.
> >> --TRISTAN
>> The Four Principles of Anarchism:
>> 1) Reason
>> 2) Mutual Aid
>> 3) Voluntary Association
>> 4)Consensus
>>
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> mailto:metatuning-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Afmmjr@...

"The Apache, Blackfeet,Cherokee, Navajo, and Sioux?"

The Apache and Navaho came from NW Canada, and before that were related to the Ket of Siberia.
The Sioux (Dakota, Lakota) come from the NE and may have some European blood. The Cherokee have claimed they were one of the lost tribes of Israel, as I recall.

So, who is indigenous? Maybe only the Blackfeet.

Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: kraiggrady@...
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: actual statements by iran president

Make up your mind you are completely hypocritical. either a land is a
people land or not

stephenszpak wrote:
> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN >>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> TRISTAN
>
> So you want this area to be given to the Spokanes as a separate
> country:
>
> The Spokane Indians are of the Interior Salish group which has
> inhabited northeastern Washington, northern Idaho, and western
> Montana for centuries.
>
> http://www.wellpinit.wednet.edu/sal-cos/cos_ch01.php
>
> What about the:
>
> The Apache, Blackfeet,Cherokee, Navajo, and Sioux?
>
> So if you could make it so in an instant, each of these tribes
> would get their own homeland, ie. country? You would want a end
> of the United State of America?
>
> An end of democracy too I assume. How could any of the dozens
> of native American tribes maintain politcal power in a given
> 'country'
> with a 'one man one vote' concept, since they are minorities
> in all parts of the lower 48?
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
> POST BELOW IS FROM TRISTAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>> Right. Just like America supports the Spokanes on their ancestral
>>
> homeland.
>
>> --TRISTAN
>> The Four Principles of Anarchism:
>> 1) Reason
>> 2) Mutual Aid
>> 3) Voluntary Association
>> 4)Consensus
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> mailto:metatuning-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

You just completely lost me.

On 9/9/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> TRISTAN
>
> So you want this area to be given to the Spokanes as a separate
> country:

You completely missed the sarcasm. I just want you to recognize that
ancestral homeland isn't some god-given right. To support the Jews in
occupying their ancestral homeland, but not support the American
tribes in occupying their ancestral homeland (often hundreds of miles
from the modern-day reservations) is hypocritical, nothing more.

>
> What about the:
>
> The Apache, Blackfeet,Cherokee, Navajo, and Sioux?

It wasn't important which nation I picked. I just grabbed that one
because it's nearby. The essential point remains the same, that
supporting Israel because it's their ancestral homeland, when there
are many nations who you clearly do not support having an independent
country on their ancestral homeland, is hypocritical.

> So if you could make it so in an instant, each of these tribes
> would get their own homeland, ie. country?

No. I'm against nationalism, remember?

> You would want a end
> of the United State of America?

That would be nice, but for different reasons.

> An end of democracy too I assume.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. the United States of
America is not a democracy. It's a federal republic that makes a
direct connection between wealth and power. We have a two-party
system, and both parties support the interests of big business, so
voting doesn't actually have that much of an effect, and the two
parties use slight differences (abortion, gay marriage, etc) to
distract people from their essential similarities, so they can say "at
least it isn't a one-party system" when functionally it is.

I would love to see the rise of more honest-to-god secular
democracies, determined not by nation but by location, and dedicated
to serving the interests of all of its citizens.

--TRISTAN

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Tristan, Stephen, Kraig, and Johnny,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

> > What about the:
> >
> > The Apache, Blackfeet,Cherokee, Navajo, and Sioux?
>
> It wasn't important which nation I picked. I just grabbed
> that one because it's nearby. The essential point remains
> the same, that supporting Israel because it's their
> ancestral homeland, when there are many nations who you
> clearly do not support having an independent country
> on their ancestral homeland, is hypocritical.
>
> > So if you could make it so in an instant, each of these tribes
> > would get their own homeland, ie. country?
>
> No. I'm against nationalism, remember?

If you do support the concept of an independent country
on the basis of ancestral homeland, then the logical result
is that the whole planet needs to be a single country
called "Africa".

... which actually would probably be a great idea!

i bet it would be a major positive move in the direction
of the change of consciousness that the people on this
planet need in order for us to stop the nonsense and survive.

> > You would want a end
> > of the United State of America?
>
> That would be nice, but for different reasons.
>
> > An end of democracy too I assume.
>
> Now you're just putting words in my mouth. the United States
> of America is not a democracy. It's a federal republic that
> makes a direct connection between wealth and power. We have
> a two-party system, and both parties support the interests
> of big business, so voting doesn't actually have that much
> of an effect, and the two parties use slight differences
> (abortion, gay marriage, etc) to distract people from their
> essential similarities, so they can say "at least it isn't
> a one-party system" when functionally it is.

Wow, that's the clearest and most concise summary of what's
wrong with the American political system that i've ever seen.
Good job.

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

From Stephen>

Monz (and others)

I'm changing the subject line here since this is not about
the nutcase Ahmadinejad anymore. I plan to post more on him shortly.
Others can as well.

Now that the Subject has changed, this will probably be the
end of the discussion (unless Margo re-enters) since we all
have our own views on the world.

>
>
From Monz>

> If you do support the concept of an independent country
> on the basis of ancestral homeland, then the logical result
> is that the whole planet needs to be a single country
> called "Africa".
>
> ... which actually would probably be a great idea!

From Stephen>

If you're the last person on Earth, and don't believe in
a higher being, there is no point in having a name is there?
Therefore this "country" would not have a name. Even calling the
country "Us" would imply there is a "Them".

But how could there be one counrty? If you don't care too much
its gets easy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"But God's the reason for everything noble and fine and heroic. If
you had a God..."

/metatuning/topicId_11153.html#11153
-------------------------------------------------------------------

But we live in *this* world with its real and difficult problems.
The most fanatical Muslims want Islam to be the only religion on
Earth. They want an end to the Jews as well. They can't be talked
out of their "beliefs" on this, no more than a Sox fan can be
talked into becoming a Yankees fan.

How we respond to this is one measure of a man/woman.

As we quickly approach the 5th anniversary of the September 11th
attacks we see our nation divided. Many believe we are in a real
war, while many believe we are in a metaphorical war, like the war
on cancer. Still others believe that if we stop fighting, they will
stop.

Unfortunately this reminds me of this quote:

You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

(Leon Trotsky)

-Stephen

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Stephen,

I've renamed the subject again, so that it has something
to do with what i'm really posting about, which is ...

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> From Monz>
>
> > If you do support the concept of an independent country
> > on the basis of ancestral homeland, then the logical result
> > is that the whole planet needs to be a single country
> > called "Africa".
> >
> > ... which actually would probably be a great idea!
>
> From Stephen>
>
> If you're the last person on Earth, and don't believe in
> a higher being, there is no point in having a name is there?
> Therefore this "country" would not have a name. Even
> calling the country "Us" would imply there is a "Them".

Decades before my Tonalsoft partner Chris and i created
our software company, we came up with a proposal to form
a USA political party called the "Earth Party", the chief
platform of which was to rename the USA "Earth" and to
invite other countries to join in, with the plan that
eventually the whole planet would be one country called
"Earth".

I came up with a great flag, which resembles that of Japan
but has a blue disk (instead of red) on a black background
(instead of white).

Neither of us has ever spoken about this to anyone except
a small handful of friends, but there it is -- now the idea
is out there in cyberspace.

> But how could there be one counrty? If you don't care too
> much its gets easy.

As i've said here before, i'm firmly convinced that, unless
humans are able to colonize Mars first, the only way we will
be able to survive as a species is to recognize that the
whole planet has to be mono-national.

In some ways this has already been recognized by the
powers-that-be, chiefly in the form of the United Nations.
But the internet and the increasing pace of technological
innovation will see to it that we either A) make it happen
or B) destroy ourselves. The way i see, our future ultimately
comes down to that simple choice.

Assuming that we don't go for option B) ...

If it does happen that humans are able to colonize Mars
before the one-nation Earth is a reality, then we're going
to have the same stupid nationalistic bullshit happening
across both planets.

It might happen anyway, even if the Mars colonization occurs
*after* the one-nation Earth, simply because Mars is so far
away that a separate identity is going to feel natural.
But hopefully by that point we will have realized the errors
of our previous ways and will work hard to stop from
repeating them.

-monz

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

I m a citizen of the earth-Diogenes (from the time of Alexander)

monz wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>
>
> I've renamed the subject again, so that it has something
> to do with what i'm really posting about, which is ...
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
> wrote:
>
> >> From Monz>
>>
>> >>> If you do support the concept of an independent country
>>> on the basis of ancestral homeland, then the logical result
>>> is that the whole planet needs to be a single country
>>> called "Africa".
>>>
>>> ... which actually would probably be a great idea!
>>> >> From Stephen>
>>
>> If you're the last person on Earth, and don't believe in
>> a higher being, there is no point in having a name is there?
>> Therefore this "country" would not have a name. Even
>> calling the country "Us" would imply there is a "Them".
>> >
>
>
> Decades before my Tonalsoft partner Chris and i created
> our software company, we came up with a proposal to form
> a USA political party called the "Earth Party", the chief
> platform of which was to rename the USA "Earth" and to
> invite other countries to join in, with the plan that
> eventually the whole planet would be one country called
> "Earth".
>
> I came up with a great flag, which resembles that of Japan
> but has a blue disk (instead of red) on a black background > (instead of white).
>
> Neither of us has ever spoken about this to anyone except
> a small handful of friends, but there it is -- now the idea
> is out there in cyberspace.
>
> > >> But how could there be one counrty? If you don't care too
>> much its gets easy.
>> >
>
> As i've said here before, i'm firmly convinced that, unless
> humans are able to colonize Mars first, the only way we will
> be able to survive as a species is to recognize that the
> whole planet has to be mono-national.
>
> In some ways this has already been recognized by the
> powers-that-be, chiefly in the form of the United Nations.
> But the internet and the increasing pace of technological
> innovation will see to it that we either A) make it happen
> or B) destroy ourselves. The way i see, our future ultimately
> comes down to that simple choice.
>
> Assuming that we don't go for option B) ...
>
> If it does happen that humans are able to colonize Mars
> before the one-nation Earth is a reality, then we're going
> to have the same stupid nationalistic bullshit happening
> across both planets. >
> It might happen anyway, even if the Mars colonization occurs
> *after* the one-nation Earth, simply because Mars is so far
> away that a separate identity is going to feel natural.
> But hopefully by that point we will have realized the errors
> of our previous ways and will work hard to stop from
> repeating them.
>
>
> -monz
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 9/10/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

Well, realistically it would probably degenerate to civil war in an
attosecond, but it's a nice idea.

> From Stephen>
>
> If you're the last person on Earth, and don't believe in
> a higher being, there is no point in having a name is there?
> Therefore this "country" would not have a name. Even calling the
> country "Us" would imply there is a "Them".

There are certainly a lot of not-humans on this planet, so having a
human nation isn't all that far fetched.

> "But God's the reason for everything noble and fine and heroic. If
> you had a God..."

You've posted this quote several times, and I still don't fully
understand what you mean by it. I have a god, but it certanily is not
the source of any noble or heroic things I might do. (unless you count
"human decency" as a member of my pantheon, and I don't. I consider
it, instead, a more fundamental need that requires no God to be
spurned forward.)

The fact is, you don't need a fictional world state to have very
powerful people with very skewed priorities. In fact, I can easily
imagine a world in which a single country among thousands could
develop a huge militairy and export its culture to every corner of the
world, by force of militairy or force of economics, and that country,
let us suppose, could be ruled by a man who has priorities that line
up with a very slim minority of the world's population, but he takes
it upon himself to impose these priorities upon the world through the
force of his economic and militairy superpower which he has far more
power over than any one person should have.

That doesn't seem nearly as far-fetched.

> But we live in *this* world with its real and difficult problems.
> The most fanatical Muslims want Islam to be the only religion on
> Earth. They want an end to the Jews as well. They can't be talked
> out of their "beliefs" on this, no more than a Sox fan can be
> talked into becoming a Yankees fan.

And there are certainly more effective ways to deal with it than the
ones we've tried. It's the fact that the world community has been
trying the same thing time and again with the same end results that is
most frustrating.

> As we quickly approach the 5th anniversary of the September 11th
> attacks we see our nation divided. Many believe we are in a real
> war, while many believe we are in a metaphorical war, like the war
> on cancer. Still others believe that if we stop fighting, they will
> stop.

We are in a real war, the war in Iraq. We are in a metaphorical war, a
war agains fascism. Both of these wars have done more to promote the
enemy's agenda than ours.

Regardless, to just throw up our hands and stop would be inviting a
different kind of disaster.

> Unfortunately this reminds me of this quote:
>
> You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.
>
> (Leon Trotsky)

In this case, we need to focus on pragmatism. Is (war x) serving to
suppress or incite fascism? What can we do to decrease the spread of
fascism?

Unfortunately, I have no idea. But I can tell you (and damn near
anyone can tell you) that what we've been doing so far hasn't exactly
been working, and we need to try something else.

--TRISTAN

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗kevin ryan <bentivi_cdo@...>

I joined the tuning list and making microtonal music
and then joined this one, but so far there hasn't been
any tuning talk, just politics - is this usual?
I tried to swear off any politalk, but...
be wary of any politics that seeks to unite the world
under a single flag. no matter how idealistic or
peacably intentioned, such projects tend to end in
bloodshed and catastrophe. (roman empire, crusades,
british imperialism, communism, nazism, u.s.
imperialism, to name a few)
on the other hand the globe flag is cute and would
probably encourage people to think less
nationalistically.
reminded me of graffiti I saw on a train once:
"all flags look black in the dark"

--- Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>
wrote:

> On 9/10/06, monz <monz@...> wrote:
>
> > Decades before my Tonalsoft partner Chris and i
> created
> > our software company, we came up with a proposal
> to form
> > a USA political party called the "Earth Party",
> the chief
> > platform of which was to rename the USA "Earth"
> and to
> > invite other countries to join in, with the plan
> that
> > eventually the whole planet would be one country
> called
> > "Earth".
>
> I may well print up cards just so I can say I'm a
> card carrying
> member. Are we running anyone in '08?
>
> --TRISTAN
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

this is the list where all the tuning people talk about anything but tuning, or a place to resolve flames on the other list it is useful though

kevin ryan wrote:
> I joined the tuning list and making microtonal music
> and then joined this one, but so far there hasn't been
> any tuning talk, just politics - is this usual? > I tried to swear off any politalk, but... > be wary of any politics that seeks to unite the world
> under a single flag. no matter how idealistic or
> peacably intentioned, such projects tend to end in
> bloodshed and catastrophe. (roman empire, crusades,
> british imperialism, communism, nazism, u.s.
> imperialism, to name a few)
> on the other hand the globe flag is cute and would
> probably encourage people to think less
> nationalistically.
> reminded me of graffiti I saw on a train once:
> "all flags look black in the dark"
> >
>
> --- Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>
> wrote:
>
> >> On 9/10/06, monz <monz@...> wrote:
>>
>> >>> Decades before my Tonalsoft partner Chris and i
>>> >> created
>> >>> our software company, we came up with a proposal
>>> >> to form
>> >>> a USA political party called the "Earth Party",
>>> >> the chief
>> >>> platform of which was to rename the USA "Earth"
>>> >> and to
>> >>> invite other countries to join in, with the plan
>>> >> that
>> >>> eventually the whole planet would be one country
>>> >> called
>> >>> "Earth".
>>> >> I may well print up cards just so I can say I'm a
>> card carrying
>> member. Are we running anyone in '08?
>>
>> --TRISTAN
>>
>> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com >
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Tristan,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 9/10/06, monz <monz@...> wrote:
>
> > Decades before my Tonalsoft partner Chris and i created
> > our software company, we came up with a proposal to form
> > a USA political party called the "Earth Party", the chief
> > platform of which was to rename the USA "Earth" and to
> > invite other countries to join in, with the plan that
> > eventually the whole planet would be one country called
> > "Earth".
>
> I may well print up cards just so I can say I'm a
> card carrying member.

That would be cool! I want some, please.

I guess maybe the time is right to actually try to float
such a far-fetched idea. (we thought it up around 1983 or so)

> Are we running anyone in '08?

You want to volunteer? ;-)

I wish i would do it myself, but my heart is just so
not into being in politics at that level. But this is
the kind of thing that is more likely to succeed if it
starts on a down-low level anyway, i think. So at least
now the idea is out there and a few people will start to
latch on.

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 9/10/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > From Monz>
> >
> > > If you do support the concept of an independent country
> > > on the basis of ancestral homeland, then the logical result
> > > is that the whole planet needs to be a single country
> > > called "Africa".
> > >
> > > ... which actually would probably be a great idea!
>
From TRISTAN>

> Well, realistically it would probably degenerate to civil war in an
> attosecond, but it's a nice idea.
>
> > From Stephen>
> >
> > If you're the last person on Earth, and don't believe in
> > a higher being, there is no point in having a name is there?
> > Therefore this "country" would not have a name. Even calling
the
> > country "Us" would imply there is a "Them".

From TRISTAN>
>
> There are certainly a lot of not-humans on this planet, so having a
> human nation isn't all that far fetched.

From Stephen>

I've got to ask. Who are these non-humans and how are they
going to know they are "Them"?

From Stephen>
>
> > "But God's the reason for everything noble and fine and heroic.
If
> > you had a God..."

From TRISTAN>
>
> You've posted this quote several times, and I still don't fully
> understand what you mean by it. I have a god, but it certanily is
not
> the source of any noble or heroic things I might do. (unless you
count
> "human decency" as a member of my pantheon, and I don't. I consider
> it, instead, a more fundamental need that requires no God to be
> spurned forward.)
>

From Stephen>

------------------------------------------------------------

An ancient proverb declared that there were more gods in Athens than
men, and wherever the Apostle looked, in niches and on pedestals, in
temples and on street corners, were gods and demigods. Busts of
Hermes were on every corner and statues and altars were in the
courtyard of every home.

Among this forest of deities Paul discovered one altar dedicated to
the "unknown god." There are many examples of similar inscriptions
in the Greco-Roman world. The idea, of course, was that these altars
to the "unknown gods" ensured that no deity was omitted from worship.

The King James Version of the New Testament calls this place Mars'
Hill, while most other translations call it the Areopagus. Greeks
called their god of war "Ares," while he was called "Mars" by the
Romans.

http://www.padfield.com/2000/unknown.html

-------------------------------------------------------------
22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of (AT)
Athens, I observe that you are very (AU)religious in all respects.
23"For while I was passing through and examining the (AV)objects of
your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN
UNKNOWN GOD ' Therefore what (AW)you worship in ignorance, this I
proclaim to you.

24"(AX)The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is
(AY)Lord of heaven and earth, does not (AZ)dwell in temples made
with hands;

25nor is He served by human hands, (BA)as though He needed
anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and
all things;

26and (BB)He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on
all the face of the earth, having (BC)determined their appointed
times and the boundaries of their habitation,

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and
find Him, (BD)though He is not far from each one of us;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=17&version=49

----------------------------------------------------------------

P.S.

Also TRISTAN, it is Monz that believes we should have a single
country on Earth. (I'm not sure if you confused Monz's posts with
mine or not.)

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 9/13/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> From TRISTAN>
> >
> > There are certainly a lot of not-humans on this planet, so having a
> > human nation isn't all that far fetched.
>
> From Stephen>
>
> I've got to ask. Who are these non-humans and how are they
> going to know they are "Them"?

Do they need to know? AIDS does not need to even be alive for the
whole of humanity to rally against it. Cancer isn't even a thing, but
still we take up arms against it.

> From Stephen>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> An ancient proverb declared that there were more gods in Athens than
> men, and wherever the Apostle looked, in niches and on pedestals, in
> temples and on street corners, were gods and demigods. Busts of
> Hermes were on every corner and statues and altars were in the
> courtyard of every home.
> ...

I still don't see how any of this is relevant.

--TRISTAN

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> Also TRISTAN, it is Monz that believes we should have a single
> country on Earth. (I'm not sure if you confused Monz's posts
> with mine or not.)

No, Stephen, you're misquoting me. I believe that we *will*
have a single country on Earth, if humanity doesn't destroy
itself first.

Whether we should or shouldn't is irrelevant -- we are not
going to survive as a species unless we *do* integrate into
one unified nation.

I wrote about this here before ... with the new improved
Yahoo search engine you should be able to find it. Humanity
is now far into the process of each human life engaging in
a symbiotic relationship with all other human lives, similar
to the way that one-celled organisms billions of years ago
learned how to cooperate to form larger multi-celled organisms.

If you believe literally what the beginning of the Book of
Genesis says (which *you*, Stephen, might, so that's why i
mention it), then you probably won't be able to see this
from my point of view.

But if you do accept what i'm saying, then you can see that
it's only a matter of time before we finally either realize
that we must surrender our individual freedoms for the sake
of the planetary whole, or destroy ourselves trying to
preserve them.

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
>> > FROM STEPHEN>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > An ancient proverb declared that there were more gods in Athens
than
> > men, and wherever the Apostle looked, in niches and on
pedestals, in
> > temples and on street corners, were gods and demigods. Busts of
> > Hermes were on every corner and statues and altars were in the
> > courtyard of every home.
> > ...

FROM TRISTAN>
>
> I still don't see how any of this is relevant.
>

FROM STEPHEN>

You mentioned "my pantheon" in #11219.

FROM STEPHEN>

The scripture
where Paul says:

"I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN
UNKNOWN GOD ' " was a statement by me that you don't
know about the true God.

FROM TRISTAN>

I have a god, but it certanily is not
the source of any noble or heroic things I might do. (unless you
count
"human decency" as a member of my pantheon, and I don't. I consider
it, instead, a more fundamental need that requires no God to be
spurned forward.)

FROM STEPHEN>

I believe it would be better for you to search for the true
God. The one that can heal the blind and stop the sun's motion
across the sky (Joshua chapter 10).

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:

FROM STEPHEN>
>
> > Also TRISTAN, it is Monz that believes we should have a single
> > country on Earth. (I'm not sure if you confused Monz's posts
> > with mine or not.)
>
FROM MONZ>

> No, Stephen, you're misquoting me. I believe that we *will*
> have a single country on Earth, if humanity doesn't destroy
> itself first.
>
> Whether we should or shouldn't is irrelevant -- we are not
> going to survive as a species unless we *do* integrate into
> one unified nation.
>
> I wrote about this here before ... with the new improved
> Yahoo search engine you should be able to find it. Humanity
> is now far into the process of each human life engaging in
> a symbiotic relationship with all other human lives, similar
> to the way that one-celled organisms billions of years ago
> learned how to cooperate to form larger multi-celled organisms.
>
> If you believe literally what the beginning of the Book of
> Genesis says (which *you*, Stephen, might, so that's why i
> mention it), then you probably won't be able to see this
> from my point of view.

>
> But if you do accept what i'm saying, then you can see that
> it's only a matter of time before we finally either realize
> that we must surrender our individual freedoms for the sake
> of the planetary whole, or destroy ourselves trying to
> preserve them.
>
>
>
> -monz
==============================================================
NEW POST BELOW NEW POST BELOW NEW POST BELOW >>>>>

FROM STEPHEN to Monz

You said:

"we must surrender our individual freedoms for the sake
of the planetary whole, or destroy ourselves trying to
preserve them."

AND

"No, Stephen, you're misquoting me. I believe that we *will*
have a single country on Earth, if humanity doesn't destroy
itself first."

"Whether we should or shouldn't is irrelevant -- we are not
going to survive as a species unless we *do* integrate into
one unified nation."

Monz, why not *believe* something different? Why not fight for
an America that remains free, even if it's just with words,
regardless of the odds? Why not say to yourself:

"Wouldn't it
be great if American high school kids a hundred years from
now could read in their history books how the fanatics of
Islam were killed and how they lost." If you start saying this
to yourself you might start believing it.

If you think the odds against this are 100,000,000,000 to 1,
I can easily prove the odds of your existence are far far
greater than that. Yet you came into being and continue to exist.

When America first came into being it was hard then too:

By perseverance and fortitude we have the prospect of a glorious
issue; by cowardice and submission, the sad choice of a variety of
evils a ravaged country a depopulated city habitations without
safety, and slavery without hope...

From The Crisis by Thomas Paine December 23, 1776

http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/crisis/singlehtml.htm

-Stephen

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> "I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN
> UNKNOWN GOD ' " was a statement by me that you don't
> know about the true God.

So now you're saying I worship a false god? On what grounds? How do
you know that your god is the true god and mine is a false god?

I know the answer, that was a rhetorical question: You know that your
God is the true god in EXACTLY the same way that the hijackers knew
that their God was the true god.

> FROM TRISTAN>
>
> I have a god, but it certanily is not
> the source of any noble or heroic things I might do. (unless you
> count
> "human decency" as a member of my pantheon, and I don't. I consider
> it, instead, a more fundamental need that requires no God to be
> spurned forward.)
>
> FROM STEPHEN>
>
> I believe it would be better for you to search for the true
> God. The one that can heal the blind and stop the sun's motion
> across the sky (Joshua chapter 10).
>
> -Stephen

I don't know about stopping the sun in the sky, but it's Jesus that
heals the blind, the god that Joshua talks about is the one who made
people blind in the first place, drowned nearly every creature in the
world because they behaved exactly the way God designed them to
behave, and gave us people like Fred Phelps. The God of Joshua, and of
the whole Old Testament is a petty, jealous, and vindictive God. The
God of the New Testament is a noble, compassionate, and loving God.

Which one would you rather serve?

--TRISTAN

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
> <rozencrantz@...> wrote:
> >
> > On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> >
> > > "I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN
> > > UNKNOWN GOD ' " was a statement by me that you don't
> > > know about the true God.
> >
> > So now you're saying I worship a false god? On what grounds? How do
> > you know that your god is the true god and mine is a false god?
> >
> > I know the answer, that was a rhetorical question: You know that
> your
> > God is the true god in EXACTLY the same way that the hijackers knew
> > that their God was the true god.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> FROM STEPHEN>NEW>
>
> Well, I guess I should expect to be compared to the mass
> murderers of 9-11 at this forum.

I've been compared to Hitler enough times that it no longer means
anything. And I could have compared you to him just as easily. Who I
picked is irrelevant, my point stands: To believe that you are more
justified in your beliefs when you have the same amount of evidence
(none) is dangerous and toxic.

--TRISTAN

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

To believe that you are more
> justified in your beliefs when you have the same amount of evidence
> (none) is dangerous and toxic.
>
> --TRISTAN
>
FROM STEPHEN>

My beliefs aren't based on evidence. They can not be.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen. (Hebrews chapter 11)

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh
to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them
that diligently seek him. (also Hebrews chapter 11)
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bartleby.com/108/58/11.html#S13

I was going to add more, but I don't think we are going
to get anywhere. If you feel something can be accomplished
here, you can reply.

Also, if I could include a pop-culture reference:

Well, gosh! I think a "Hello" or a "Nice to see you" might be a
little more welcome. It's the end of humanity, Faith, not the end of
courtesy.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer#Touched

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> To believe that you are more
> > justified in your beliefs when you have the same amount of evidence
> > (none) is dangerous and toxic.
> >
> > --TRISTAN
> >
> FROM STEPHEN>
>
> My beliefs aren't based on evidence. They can not be.

That's exactly what I mean. But you will never convince me that your
God is truer than mine that way. So when you say that I do not know
the true God, you are making an assertion that cannot be backed up,
cannot even be argued for or against. It's a meaningless assertion
until you can give it some kind of meaning.

All of this stems from my assertion that God was not needed for Human
Decency, and I do have evidence for that: I have one friend who is an
Athiest and a very decent, moral human being. Therfore, there is one
counterexample to the statement "Human Decency requires God" so the
satement is proven false.

The problem with arguments like that is that it may seem totally
airtight to me but full of holes and completely arrogant to you.
Please tell me if this is the case, I assure you I honestly don't
know.

--TRISTAN

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

the dalia lama when i saw him speak the other pointed out the basis of ethics should be the collective experience of all mankind, hence secular.
religion is 'above ' ethics' that is why god can tell abraham to kill his son.

thou shall not kill unless it is me or under my direction
how pathetiic
Rozencrantz the Sane wrote:
> On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> >> To believe that you are more
>> >>> justified in your beliefs when you have the same amount of evidence
>>> (none) is dangerous and toxic.
>>>
>>> --TRISTAN
>>>
>>> >> FROM STEPHEN>
>>
>> My beliefs aren't based on evidence. They can not be.
>> >
> That's exactly what I mean. But you will never convince me that your
> God is truer than mine that way. So when you say that I do not know
> the true God, you are making an assertion that cannot be backed up,
> cannot even be argued for or against. It's a meaningless assertion
> until you can give it some kind of meaning.
>
> All of this stems from my assertion that God was not needed for Human
> Decency, and I do have evidence for that: I have one friend who is an
> Athiest and a very decent, moral human being. Therfore, there is one
> counterexample to the statement "Human Decency requires God" so the
> satement is proven false.
>
> The problem with arguments like that is that it may seem totally
> airtight to me but full of holes and completely arrogant to you.
> Please tell me if this is the case, I assure you I honestly don't
> know.
>
> --TRISTAN
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:

FROM KRAIG>
>
> the dalia lama when i saw him speak the other pointed out the
basis of
> ethics should be the collective experience of all mankind, hence
secular.
> religion is 'above ' ethics' that is why god can tell abraham to
kill
> his son.
>
> thou shall not kill unless it is me or under my direction
> how pathetiic
>
>
> FROM STEPHEN>

1Now it came about after these things, that (A)God tested
Abraham, and said to him, "(B)Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

2He said, "Take now (C)your son, your only son, whom you love,
Isaac, and go to the land of (D)Moriah, and offer him there as a (E)
burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

9Then they came to (H)the place of which God had told him; and
Abraham built (I)the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound
his son Isaac and (J)laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.

10Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his
son.

11But (K)the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and
said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

12He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do
nothing to him; for now (L)I know that you fear God, since you have
not withheld (M)your son, your only son, from Me."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=22&version=49

As for God...He sent his *only* son, and didn't spare him.

But why?

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal
life.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&version=49

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> > To believe that you are more
> > > justified in your beliefs when you have the same amount of
evidence
> > > (none) is dangerous and toxic.
> > >
> > > --TRISTAN
> > >
> > FROM STEPHEN>
> >
> > My beliefs aren't based on evidence. They can not be.

FROM TRISTAN>
>
> That's exactly what I mean. But you will never convince me that
your
> God is truer than mine that way. So when you say that I do not know
> the true God, you are making an assertion that cannot be backed up,
> cannot even be argued for or against. It's a meaningless assertion
> until you can give it some kind of meaning.
>
> All of this stems from my assertion that God was not needed for
Human
> Decency, and I do have evidence for that: I have one friend who is
an
> Athiest and a very decent, moral human being. Therfore, there is
one
> counterexample to the statement "Human Decency requires God" so the
> satement is proven false.
>
> The problem with arguments like that is that it may seem totally
> airtight to me but full of holes and completely arrogant to you.
> Please tell me if this is the case, I assure you I honestly don't
> know.
>
> --TRISTAN
>
FROM STEPHEN>

TRISTAN

It is best to think about where you want to be for eternity.

It not about a balance, where good deeds are on one side and evil
on the other. (Some believe that if they do more good than bad
they go to heaven.) One sin is one too many to permit you entrance
into heaven.

There is also no way to make up for a sin. No amount of good
deeds matter. Christianity is not one of the 'works religions'.
You can't earn salvation, from endless torment.

From Isaiah:

All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=53&version=49

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> TRISTAN
>
> It is best to think about where you want to be for eternity.

At an open jam?

> It not about a balance, where good deeds are on one side and evil
> on the other. (Some believe that if they do more good than bad
> they go to heaven.) One sin is one too many to permit you entrance
> into heaven.

Once again you've ignored me completely. I'm not talking about sin (I
reject the very notion), I'm not even talking about the Bible anymore.
I'm talking about human decency, because you implied in the Huxley
quote that God was necessary for people to behave decently towards
each other. I provided a counterexample under the belief that a single
counterexample refutes a statement of necessity.

What I said about the Bible stands, you have not even disputed it:
That no one can demonstrate that their God is more right than another.
You can prove that one God is friendlier than another, more palatable,
more consistent with the way the world behaves (See "the problem of
evil") but you cannot prove that your God is right: in power, capable
of meting out rewards and punishments, the creator of the universe,
etc.

--TRISTAN
Dreaming of Eden is a Comic With No Pictures
http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Stephen,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> You said:
>
> "we must surrender our individual freedoms for the sake
> of the planetary whole, or destroy ourselves trying to
> preserve them."
>
>
> AND
>
> "No, Stephen, you're misquoting me. I believe that we *will*
> have a single country on Earth, if humanity doesn't destroy
> itself first."
>
> "Whether we should or shouldn't is irrelevant -- we are not
> going to survive as a species unless we *do* integrate into
> one unified nation."
>
>
> Monz, why not *believe* something different? Why not fight for
> an America that remains free, even if it's just with words,
> regardless of the odds? Why not say to yourself:

It seems that you're still not understanding me.

This is not a matter of belief, as in something that must
be taken on faith. It's a consequence of my looking at
science, religion, history, and current events for
several decades with a very critical eye, and trying to
really see the "big picture".

I simply see the unification of all humanity as inevitable
... unless we insist on resisting it and in the process
kill ourselves off.

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 9/16/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> > TRISTAN
> >
> > It is best to think about where you want to be for eternity.
>
> At an open jam?
>
> > It not about a balance, where good deeds are on one side and
evil
> > on the other. (Some believe that if they do more good than bad
> > they go to heaven.) One sin is one too many to permit you
entrance
> > into heaven.
>
> Once again you've ignored me completely. I'm not talking about sin
(I
> reject the very notion), I'm not even talking about the Bible
anymore.
> I'm talking about human decency, because you implied in the Huxley
> quote that God was necessary for people to behave decently towards
> each other. I provided a counterexample under the belief that a
single
> counterexample refutes a statement of necessity.
>
> What I said about the Bible stands, you have not even disputed it:
> That no one can demonstrate that their God is more right than
another.
> You can prove that one God is friendlier than another, more
palatable,
> more consistent with the way the world behaves (See "the problem of
> evil") but you cannot prove that your God is right: in power,
capable
> of meting out rewards and punishments, the creator of the universe,
> etc.
>
> --TRISTAN
> >

FROM STEPHEN>

TRISTAN

I wanted to move past that argument. You know the one that goes:

"I'm not a Christian and yet I live a decent life. If there is a
heaven I have just as much a right to be there as Joe Christian
across the street." I realize now you weren't even
thinking about going in this direction.

Did you think I could prove to you that God exists?
Did you think I could prove to you that you have a soul?

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen,
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
>
> > You said:
> >
> > "we must surrender our individual freedoms for the sake
> > of the planetary whole, or destroy ourselves trying to
> > preserve them."
> >
> >
> > AND
> >
> > "No, Stephen, you're misquoting me. I believe that we *will*
> > have a single country on Earth, if humanity doesn't destroy
> > itself first."
> >
> > "Whether we should or shouldn't is irrelevant -- we are not
> > going to survive as a species unless we *do* integrate into
> > one unified nation."
> >
> >
> > Monz, why not *believe* something different? Why not fight for
> > an America that remains free, even if it's just with words,
> > regardless of the odds? Why not say to yourself:
>
>
> It seems that you're still not understanding me.
>
> This is not a matter of belief, as in something that must
> be taken on faith. It's a consequence of my looking at
> science, religion, history, and current events for
> several decades with a very critical eye, and trying to
> really see the "big picture".
>
> I simply see the unification of all humanity as inevitable
> ... unless we insist on resisting it and in the process
> kill ourselves off.
>
>
> -monz
>
FROM STEPHEN>

Monz
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without
bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and
not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to
fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of
survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when
there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to
live as slaves."

-- Winston Churchill
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I've come across many quotes recently on war. Let's hope someday,
if it be necessary, I actually have the courage of my convictions.

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Stephen,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@> wrote:

> >
> > I simply see the unification of all humanity as inevitable
> > ... unless we insist on resisting it and in the process
> > kill ourselves off.
> >
> >
> > -monz
> >
> FROM STEPHEN>
>
> Monz
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> "If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win
> without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will
> be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when
> you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only
> a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case:
> you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory,
> because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
>
> -- Winston Churchill
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> I've come across many quotes recently on war. Let's hope
> someday, if it be necessary, I actually have the courage of
> my convictions.

I really do wish that you would answer me with more dialog
in your own words that with quotes from the Bible or other
famous people.

Anyway, that said, now i have a quote for you ... you may
not be willing to accept it, since it is founded upon
acceptance of the theory of evolution -- but it gets my
point across perfectly:

from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis

>> Symbiosis and evolution
>>
>> The biologist Lynn Margulis, famous for the work on
>> endosymbiosis, contends that symbiosis is a major driving
>> force behind evolution. She considers Darwin's notion of
>> evolution, driven by competition, as incomplete, and
>> claims evolution is strongly based on co-operation,
>> interaction, and mutual dependence among organisms.
>> According to Margulis and Sagan (1986), "Life did not
>> take over the globe by combat, but by networking." As
>> in humans, organisms that cooperate with others of their
>> own or different species often outcompete those that don't.

Another author who has written terrific stuff about this
is Gregory Bateson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Bateson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steps_to_an_Ecology_of_Mind

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen,
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > I simply see the unification of all humanity as inevitable
> > > ... unless we insist on resisting it and in the process
> > > kill ourselves off.
> > >
> > >
> > > -monz
> > >
> > FROM STEPHEN>
> >
> > Monz
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > "If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win
> > without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will
> > be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when
> > you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only
> > a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case:
> > you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory,
> > because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
> >
> > -- Winston Churchill
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > I've come across many quotes recently on war. Let's hope
> > someday, if it be necessary, I actually have the courage of
> > my convictions.
>
>
> I really do wish that you would answer me with more dialog
> in your own words that with quotes from the Bible or other
> famous people.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN> NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW

Monz

I figured that we were pretty much ending this line of thought.
Therefore I didn't think we needed more dialog. Since I usually
misunderstand people here, now is my chance once again.

If you have no time or desire, or think we are all set on
the subject, please feel totally free to skip what is below.
No problem.

I'm going to assume you need clarification of Churhchill's
remarks.

What is below is from #11236

===============================================================
===============================================================
===============================================================

FROM STEPHEN to Monz

You said:

"we must surrender our individual freedoms for the sake
of the planetary whole, or destroy ourselves trying to
preserve them."

AND

"No, Stephen, you're misquoting me. I believe that we *will*
have a single country on Earth, if humanity doesn't destroy
itself first."

"Whether we should or shouldn't is irrelevant -- we are not
going to survive as a species unless we *do* integrate into
one unified nation."

Monz, why not *believe* something different? Why not fight for
an America that remains free, even if it's just with words,
regardless of the odds? Why not say to yourself:

If you think the odds against this are 100,000,000,000 to 1,
I can easily prove the odds of your existence are far far
greater than that. Yet you came into being and continue to exist.
===============================================================
===============================================================
===============================================================

I spoke of odds
and you spoke
of certainty. Something that WILL happen. Odds that are
infinitely in favor of a given event.

Quote from Monz:

I believe that we *will*
have a single country on Earth...

Churchill spoke of odds as well. That is why I quoted him.
He even spoke of fighting when it is impossible to win.
Regardless of my courage level, I believe it is better to fight
against extremist Islam EVEN IF there is no possibility of
winning. There are things more important than my life. May
I go with that when/if I have to.

From Churchill (below)

There may even be a worse case:
you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory,
because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

-- Winston Churchill

As far as me quoting others...if someone can express my thoughts
better (and often more eloguently) I see no point in using my
own words.

I'll check out evolution stuff later,

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 9/20/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I've come across many quotes recently on war. Let's hope
> someday,
> > > if it be necessary, I actually have the courage of my
> convictions.
> > >
> > > -Stephen
> >
> > How about this one?
> > "Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than
> > Christianity has made them good."
> > -- HL Mencken
> >
> > --TRISTAN
> >
> POST BELOW IS FROM STEPHEN>
>
> I don't know anything about this guy. Since he is against
> voting I'll bet he'd make a good dictator.
>
> -Stephen

He isn't against voting any more than he's against Christianity. He's
just pointing out that it isn't a cure-all. Some of the most vicious
and repressive dictators in history were democratically elected. Part
of the problem is that there is often nobody to vote for; I mentioned
earlier that just because there are two parties doesn't mean they're
different. Another problem is that politicians are liars.

--TRISTAN
Dreaming of Eden is a Comic with no Pictures
http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stephen,
>
>
> --- > > >
> > > I simply see the unification of all humanity as inevitable
> > > ... unless we insist on resisting it and in the process
> > > kill ourselves off.
> > >
> > >
> > > -monz
> > >
> > FROM STEPHEN>
> >
> > Monz
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> >
> Anyway, that said, now i have a quote for you ... you may
> not be willing to accept it, since it is founded upon
> acceptance of the theory of evolution -- but it gets my
> point across perfectly:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis
>
>>
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Bateson
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steps_to_an_Ecology_of_Mind
>
>
> -monz
>
FROM STEPHEN>

Monz

(Briefly scanned your stuff.)

I know you are an atheist, so I assumed you also believe you
have no soul. I was thinking about that today. I mean, if you
believe that your death is the total end of you, I can't imagine
why you would have any concern over the human species in
the future.

-Stephen

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Stephen,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> I know you are an atheist, so I assumed you also believe you
> have no soul. I was thinking about that today. I mean, if you
> believe that your death is the total end of you, I can't imagine
> why you would have any concern over the human species in
> the future.

Whoa! You've gone *way* overboard!

First of all, how do you "know" i am an atheist?!
I have *never* once said that, and in fact, i do
believe in God in some form, but not in the
paternalistic Christian form. I believe literally
that God is Love.

Secondly, i do not believe that i have no soul.
I plead total agnosticism on that one, as well as
on what happens to a person's consciousness after death.
I don't know the answer, and it will remain a mystery
to me until the moment i die, and i'm OK with that.
It's not necessary for me to believe in something that
i don't know about just to have something to believe in.
I'm fine with not knowing ... i like surprises anyway.
For me it's part of the adventure that makes life fun
... so i guess i'm looking forward to death being fun too.

Thirdly, it's totally incorrect for you to infer, based
on my belief that we will have to unify the whole species
for our continued survival, that i have no concern for
the future of the human species. Quite the contrary.
It is precisely my concern for our future existence that
has led me to think deeply about this and to realize that
we will not be able to continue to exist if we insist on
maintaining our "individual freedom". Unification of our
species is simply the path that the evolution of the planet
is taking, and for us to resist it is analagous to each of
us becoming a harmful germ which the planetary system will
have to eradicate.

I hope this helps you understand my position better.

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
FROM MONZ>

> Hi Stephen,

I believe literally
that God is Love.

FROM STEPHEN> In case you didn't know, this is a scripture.
I thought you might want to know where it came
from. (of course you probably knew already)

We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for
us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and
God abides in him.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&version=49

FROM MONZ>
>
> >
> Secondly, i do not believe that i have no soul.
> I plead total agnosticism on that one, as well as
> on what happens to a person's consciousness after death.
> I don't know the answer, and it will remain a mystery
> to me until the moment i die, and i'm OK with that.
> It's not necessary for me to believe in something that
> i don't know about just to have something to believe in.
> I'm fine with not knowing ... i like surprises anyway.
> For me it's part of the adventure that makes life fun
> ... so i guess i'm looking forward to death being fun too.
>
>
> -monz
>
FROM STEPHEN>

I'm just a man so I don't have the ability to impart
revelation knowledge. God has the ability. Reading the Gospel
of John is one place to start.

It is hard to read on-line, but Chapter 1 is here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=49

One thing you might also try is this. Find a quiet place where you
can't be interrupted and talk to Jesus. Ask Him to prove to
you beyond any doubt that He is alive.

-Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Stephen,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>

> "There is no neutral ground in the universe; every square inch,
> every split second, is claimed by God and counter-claimed by Satan"
>
> C.S. Lewis

Well, that points out one of the main differences between
my perspective and yours: i do not see the universe in such
black/white, either/or, yes/no, good/evil dualistic terms,
generally speaking.

My view is much more wholistic, with those opposing positions
at ends of a continuum filled with lots of "gray area".

Actually, most of the time when i think about this stuff,
my conculsion is not even that of a continuum, but rather
of a circle ... sort of like the way the so-called "neo-con"
philosophy that's taken over the power positions in American
government is actually quite radical. You go so far in one
direction that you end up meeting the position which lies
at the other end.

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
FROM STEPHEN>

> >
> > "There is no neutral ground in the universe; every square inch,
> > every split second, is claimed by God and counter-claimed by
Satan"
> >
> > C.S. Lewis
>
>
FROM MONZ>

> Well, that points out one of the main differences between
> my perspective and yours: i do not see the universe in such
> black/white, either/or, yes/no, good/evil dualistic terms,
> generally speaking.
>
> My view is much more wholistic, with those opposing positions
> at ends of a continuum filled with lots of "gray area".

FROM STEPHEN>

Quote from Monz:

Hi Monz

One of the 2 things I asked you to do is:

"Find a quiet place where you
can't be interrupted and talk to Jesus. Ask Him to prove to
you beyond any doubt that He is alive."

This takes only a short time and costs nothing. Perhaps you
can ask yourself why you haven't done this (if you have not).

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead,
how do some among you say that there (W)is no resurrection of the
dead?

13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has
been raised;

14and (X)if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain,
your faith also is vain.

15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because
we testified against God that He (Y)raised [a]Christ, whom He did
not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;

17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; (Z)
you are still in your sins.

18Then those also who (AA)have fallen asleep in Christ have
perished.

19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are (AB)of all
men most to be pitied.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&version=49

-Stephen

🔗Afmmjr@...

Stephen, for some of us, the very idea of talking to ourselves, even under the guise of talking to "Jesus," is embarrassing at best.

As a certain non-believer, I have come up with some mathematical models to better explain this perspective.

ET = Atheism (irreligious) = polymicrotonality
WT = Religion(s)

Johnny, wishing everyone well in this fast-changing world, sadly replete with insensivitivty to others

p.s. is empathy a gene as I once heard?

-----Original Message-----
From: stephen_szpak@...
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 10:49 AM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: What am I worth?