Re: [MMM] Re: OT, religion--let's go to metatuning?

On Thursday 22 June 2006 11:54 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> we can pick on religion but Nietzsche inspired as much human suffering
> as any religion.
> Look how the Nazis co opted him. the argument that they didn't
> understand them, well this is what the christian state also.

Unfortunately, what I find troubling about alot of religion is that it *is*
well understood. For instance, the Bible was successfully used during the
Civil War in defense of slavery, because there is not one word of
condemnation of it in either testament.

Look at all the outright condoning of genocide in the OT---'Dog' says to the
Isrealites: "Go, take the land that I have given you, slaughter every man,
woman, and child, etc."

> and let us look at all those great "scientific " experiments in the camps.

Evil is evil. Yes, scientists can be evil.

> atheism has not inspired much at all.

I have found it and/or agnosticism both liberating and inspiring, personally.

A great many great minds throughout history have felt likewise.

But--point taken. The same could be said for Christianity.

My point is that it is possible, and I believe Christians to be an example, to
be inspired by an idea that is ultimately harmful and/or enslaving to
humanity, and to our continued survival on Earth.

It has been shown that the most violent societies on the planet today are
coincidentally the most religious and fundamentalist. Coincidence?

> and not all christians are alike either
> i would hate to put jerry farewell and thomas merton in the same category

I don't much about Merton, honestly.

> i am greatly opposed to missionaires though

Me too.

-Aaron.

I quite agree with what you say here and have found the religions of not much use to act as a reasonable catalog of even my own experience.
the question of tolerance is important and i would hate to force others out of here for this reason.
On the other hand it is hard to figure out what is the right balance of tolerance toward intolerant inclined religious attitudes.

On the other hand i still find much feelings of hurt of being refused by one label because of the religious beliefs on my website.
Likewise the attitude of certain of the Boston school toward JI as a form of mysticism , i also find in keeping with this areas history of witch hunting.

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> On Thursday 22 June 2006 11:54 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> >> we can pick on religion but Nietzsche inspired as much human suffering
>> as any religion.
>> Look how the Nazis co opted him. the argument that they didn't
>> understand them, well this is what the christian state also.
>> >
> Unfortunately, what I find troubling about alot of religion is that it *is* > well understood. For instance, the Bible was successfully used during the > Civil War in defense of slavery, because there is not one word of > condemnation of it in either testament.
>
> Look at all the outright condoning of genocide in the OT---'Dog' says to the > Isrealites: "Go, take the land that I have given you, slaughter every man, > woman, and child, etc."
>
> >> and let us look at all those great "scientific " experiments in the camps.
>> >
> Evil is evil. Yes, scientists can be evil.
>
> >> atheism has not inspired much at all.
>> >
> I have found it and/or agnosticism both liberating and inspiring, personally.
>
> A great many great minds throughout history have felt likewise.
>
> But--point taken. The same could be said for Christianity.
>
> My point is that it is possible, and I believe Christians to be an example, to > be inspired by an idea that is ultimately harmful and/or enslaving to > humanity, and to our continued survival on Earth.
>
> It has been shown that the most violent societies on the planet today are > coincidentally the most religious and fundamentalist. Coincidence?
>
> >> and not all christians are alike either
>> i would hate to put jerry farewell and thomas merton in the same category
>> >
> I don't much about Merton, honestly.
>
> >> i am greatly opposed to missionaires though
>> >
> Me too.
>
> -Aaron.
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
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>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

the greatest tragedy is when intelligent, well meaning people throw out the
baby with the bathwater when they quite rightly reject the distortions of
organized religions. The "baby" that sometimes gets thrown out too is
spiritual reality: the reality of intrinsic awareness, and energy in all its
forms as its natural expression creating all the patterns we experience as
both ourselves and the world.

Organized religions are largely fear-based creations, perhaps originally
based on the insights of an awakened founder, but quickly ossified by small
minded beaurocrats into self-perpetuating power structures (as Neitzsche
points out). Each of us is a hologram embracing all, so there is no need for
mediation, only perhaps advice from well-gone ones in how to abide in our
original nature.

Well said Dante, and I whole-heartedly agree. Spiritual realities
and truths are meant to be realized personally and individually --
the very antithesis of organized religion's conformist group-think
approach to the Universe.

Spirituality requires that we grow ever more aware of others as well
as ourselves, in everyday struggles to discover the meaning of all
Existence and our proper place within it. Organized religion demands
that we abdicate our growth and yield this spiritual responsibility
to those with "greater" spiritual knowledge and authority.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@...> wrote:
>
> the greatest tragedy is when intelligent, well meaning people
throw out the
> baby with the bathwater when they quite rightly reject the
distortions of
> organized religions. The "baby" that sometimes gets thrown out too
is
> spiritual reality: the reality of intrinsic awareness, and energy
in all its
> forms as its natural expression creating all the patterns we
experience as
> both ourselves and the world.
>
> Organized religions are largely fear-based creations, perhaps
originally
> based on the insights of an awakened founder, but quickly ossified
by small
> minded beaurocrats into self-perpetuating power structures (as
Neitzsche
> points out). Each of us is a hologram embracing all, so there is
no need for
> mediation, only perhaps advice from well-gone ones in how to abide
in our
> original nature.
>

A lot of good thoughts here, Aaron, Kraig, Dante, and
J.L.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>
wrote:
>

Aaron (and anyone)

> Unfortunately, what I find troubling about alot of religion is
that it *is*
> well understood. For instance, the Bible was successfully used
during the
> Civil War in defense of slavery, because there is not one word of
> condemnation of it in either testament.

+++++++ "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty...

++ It's not my fault the founding fathers didn't believe
their own words.

>
> It has been shown that the most violent societies on the planet
today are
> coincidentally the most religious and fundamentalist. Coincidence?

+++++++ North Korea too?

i am greatly opposed to missionaires though

++++++ The most general definition of 'missionary' ,
would probably be anyone that proclaims the
gospel in any place. It seems you are opposed
to freedom of religion.

==================================================================

/makemicromusic/topicId_11549.html#13743?l=1

"...as well as hatred of the natural and of the body, anti-
scientific thinking,
xenophobia, homophobia, agressive wars of ideological bent which have
negative global consequences for economics and peace, keeping the
Southern
U.S. and a good chunk of the North in the Dark Ages...I could go on
and on,
but you get the point."

+++++++++ Don't have any problems with science. Wouldn't want to
be responsible for single-handedly bringing back the
Dark Ages.

"To quote Nietzsche:

"In Christianity, neither morality nor religion come into contact
with reality
at any point."

"What a
theologian feels to be true must be false..."

+++++++++++ John Chapter 15 verse 13 (spoken by Jesus):

"Greater love has no one than this, that one
lay down his life for his friends.

>
> -Aaron.
>

-Stephen

some of the founding fathers did, but they inherited much that was already in place

stephenszpak wrote:
>
>
> +++++++ "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are > created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain > unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty...
>
> ++ It's not my fault the founding fathers didn't believe
> their own words.
>
>
>
>
> >> It has been shown that the most violent societies on the planet >> > today are > >> coincidentally the most religious and fundamentalist. Coincidence?
>> >
> +++++++ North Korea too?
>
>
> i am greatly opposed to missionaires though
>
>
> ++++++ The most general definition of 'missionary' ,
> would probably be anyone that proclaims the
> gospel in any place. It seems you are opposed > to freedom of religion. >
>
>
> ==================================================================
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_11549.html#13743?l=1
>
> "...as well as hatred of the natural and of the body, anti-
> scientific thinking,
> xenophobia, homophobia, agressive wars of ideological bent which have
> negative global consequences for economics and peace, keeping the > Southern
> U.S. and a good chunk of the North in the Dark Ages...I could go on > and on,
> but you get the point."
>
> +++++++++ Don't have any problems with science. Wouldn't want to
> be responsible for single-handedly bringing back the > Dark Ages.
>
> "To quote Nietzsche:
>
> "In Christianity, neither morality nor religion come into contact > with reality
> at any point."
>
> "What a
> theologian feels to be true must be false..."
>
> +++++++++++ John Chapter 15 verse 13 (spoken by Jesus):
>
> "Greater love has no one than this, that one > lay down his life for his friends.
>
> >
>
>
> >> -Aaron.
>>
>> >
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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>
> To post to the list, send to
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>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:

Kraig

What a excellent time to have stopped, what would later
become, I'm pretty sure, the most deadly American
conflict. That is, as a percentage of the American population.

Regarding an entire race (Negros) as sub-human, goes against
scripture as well.

Revelation Chapter 5:

...for you were slain, and did purchase for God with Your
blood men (people) from every tribe and tongue and people
and nation.

If the Negros in the U.S. at that time were regarded as equal
to the whites, I can't see how they would have ever have been
accepted as slaves. (Whites weren't slaves, after all.)

If some whites actually believed in their hearts that the Black race
was sub-human, this is no different. This would be sin too.

I am reminded of this when it comes to much of what has been
discussed lately:

Acts Chapter 28 verse 22: (words addressed to Paul)

"But we desire to hear from you what you think; for concerning
this sect, it is known to us that it is spoken against everywhere."

I can't say that everything is a misunderstanding. I do believe
though, that some have a incorrect view of Christianity.

-Stephen

>
> some of the founding fathers did, but they inherited much that was
> already in place
>

the problems was there were many POV when the country started, much controlled by the land owners who were not going to let lose of their slaves.
one has only to look at the french revolution, which was responsible by many of these same people exporting their terrorism to France
let face , the people are still slaves and are becoming more so every day.
the world is run by small group of individuals which control everything.
monopolies are more than they have ever been , merely more disguised.

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> > wrote:
>
> Kraig
>
> What a excellent time to have stopped, what would later > become, I'm pretty sure, the most deadly American
> conflict. That is, as a percentage of the American population.
>
> Regarding an entire race (Negros) as sub-human, goes against
> scripture as well. >
> Revelation Chapter 5:
>
> ...for you were slain, and did purchase for God with Your
> blood men (people) from every tribe and tongue and people
> and nation.
>
> If the Negros in the U.S. at that time were regarded as equal
> to the whites, I can't see how they would have ever have been
> accepted as slaves. (Whites weren't slaves, after all.)
>
> If some whites actually believed in their hearts that the Black race
> was sub-human, this is no different. This would be sin too.
>
> I am reminded of this when it comes to much of what has been
> discussed lately:
>
> Acts Chapter 28 verse 22: (words addressed to Paul)
>
> "But we desire to hear from you what you think; for concerning
> this sect, it is known to us that it is spoken against everywhere."
>
> I can't say that everything is a misunderstanding. I do believe
> though, that some have a incorrect view of Christianity. >
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> some of the founding fathers did, but they inherited much that was >> already in place
>>
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
Kraig

> the problems was there were many POV when the country started,
much
> controlled by the land owners who were not going to let lose of
their
> slaves.

++++++ I know. Each slave was worth X number of dollars.

the people are still slaves and are becoming more so every day.
> the world is run by small group of individuals which control
everything.
> monopolies are more than they have ever been , merely more
disguised.

++++++ I can't see how African-Americans (if this is the term
you use) are worse off now than in the 1950's.

-Stephen

everybody is way worse off than they were in the 50's
one persons income could easily support a family

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> > wrote:
> > Kraig
>
> >
> >> the problems was there were many POV when the country started, >> > much > >> controlled by the land owners who were not going to let lose of >> > their > >> slaves.
>> >
> ++++++ I know. Each slave was worth X number of dollars.
> > the people are still slaves and are becoming more so every day.
> >> the world is run by small group of individuals which control >> > everything.
> >> monopolies are more than they have ever been , merely more >> > disguised.
>
> ++++++ I can't see how African-Americans (if this is the term
> you use) are worse off now than in the 1950's.
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> If the Negros in the U.S. at that time were regarded as equal
> to the whites, I can't see how they would have ever have been
> accepted as slaves. (Whites weren't slaves, after all.)

Actually, some times they were.