Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Bach

Strass
Thus spoke Zarathrusa also has an (almost) 12 tone theme
But yes Bach liked Chromatics.

I think we can thank Johnny Reinhard for being one of the those who first exposed the confusion between well and equal temperment while at Columbia i seem to remember.
Neil Haverstick wrote:

> I was reading an old (1985) Keyboard mag, which was a tribute to Bach, >and Rosalyn Tureck mentioned that the B minor fugue from Book 1 of the Well >Tempered Clavier was a 12 tone row (Schoenberg had mentioned it to her when >she was studying with him)...well, it sure enough does use all 12 tones (it >does repeat a couple in the row before finishing), which means that Bach >beat Sberg to it by a couple hundred years. So, I wonder how Bach came >across it, how deliberate it was, and if he used the 12 tone technique >elsewhere?
> Also, it's interesting to me that so many people over the years have >confused well temperament with equal temperament, and assumed Bach used 12 >eq in the well temp clavier, I guess the subject of tuning became of lesser >importance over the years, and that's why I'm glad for the folks on these >lists...best to all...HH
>microstick.net
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗monz <monz@...>

🔗Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>

I've been listening to a lot of Bach, as well as reading some stuff about him, and it made me think...Rosalyn Tureck and many others remark on how Bach often dedicated his musical works to God, and that he was a very spiritually oriented man, with a strong Lutheran faith. This being so, I started wondering if a person who performed Bach's music, but didn't have the same sort of spiritual beliefs, could achieve the same sort of emotional depth and power that a person who DID share those same values, when they played Bach's music. And it's interesting, if one looks at a lot of cultures around the world, from Indian to Arabic to Chinese to ancient Greece, that music was always associated with deeper metaphysical meanings, and Universal correspondences. Most cultures felt sound was the very foundation of the whole Universal structure, so naturally, music could be a very powerful force in the physical world. Music certainly wasn't meant to be only entertainment, and often was seen as a path to God/the Creator, however one chooses to say it.
I feel that today, unfortunately, music is being misused in many ways, and the deeper meanings have been largely forgotten. I happen to agree that music is the foundation of the Universe (string theory is correct), and if more people would concentrate on those deeper meanings through their music (or any art), I truly believe musicians could become a powerful force for good across the planet...I'm hoping to be one who helps to make that happen, cause we sure need it right about now...HHH
microstick.net

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

I would say that certain people either have or develop a way to perform music that touches upon these these , or draws energy from a similar place .
But even in the category of 'religious music" , the intent and practice can be quite varied.
In the west , i would say we are quite comfortable to 'devotional' music and while we have a 'market' of 'healing music, there are cultures that are far more developed than our own, as far as invoking spirits, guides, protection, etc. Some has been developed to induce trance, but even these trance states can vary in intent.
What i hear though in what you have here is that music in itself has it own religious status independent of the other practices it has historically been attached to. I would wholly agree and consider my self a practitioner of just such a practice.
Mircea Eliade mentioned that much of western art has achieved little beyond being the secularization of sacred objects.
It seems there are those of us who see the possibility of spiritization of the secular activities

Neil Haverstick wrote:

> I've been listening to a lot of Bach, as well as reading some stuff about >him, and it made me think...Rosalyn Tureck and many others remark on how >Bach often dedicated his musical works to God, and that he was a very >spiritually oriented man, with a strong Lutheran faith. This being so, I >started wondering if a person who performed Bach's music, but didn't have >the same sort of spiritual beliefs, could achieve the same sort of emotional >depth and power that a person who DID share those same values, when they >played Bach's music. And it's interesting, if one looks at a lot of cultures >around the world, from Indian to Arabic to Chinese to ancient Greece, that >music was always associated with deeper metaphysical meanings, and Universal >correspondences. Most cultures felt sound was the very foundation of the >whole Universal structure, so naturally, music could be a very powerful >force in the physical world. Music certainly wasn't meant to be only >entertainment, and often was seen as a path to God/the Creator, however one >chooses to say it.
> I feel that today, unfortunately, music is being misused in many ways, >and the deeper meanings have been largely forgotten. I happen to agree that >music is the foundation of the Universe (string theory is correct), and if >more people would concentrate on those deeper meanings through their music >(or any art), I truly believe musicians could become a powerful force for >good across the planet...I'm hoping to be one who helps to make that happen, >cause we sure need it right about now...HHH
>microstick.net
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Afmmjr@...

Neil wrote:
I've been listening to a lot of Bach, as well as reading some stuff about
him, and it made me think...Rosalyn Tureck and many others remark on how
Bach often dedicated his musical works to God, and that he was a very
spiritually oriented man, with a strong Lutheran faith. This being so, I
started wondering if a person who performed Bach's music, but didn't have
the same sort of spiritual beliefs, could achieve the same sort of emotional
depth and power that a person who DID share those same values, when they
played Bach's music.
I love 'ya, guy, but you are barking up the wrong tree. Bach wrote for every
kind of religious organization, inlcuding Catholic and Pietist. Have you
forgotten that non-Christ believer Irving Berlin wrote "White Christmas"?

But more to the point, why shouldn't a non-religous person then argue in
contradistinction that religous people are adled by a non-existent reality. The
80 percent Christian majority has just produced the farce of the anti-Christmas
war, which was very harmful to children who believed this true.

Still more to the point, Ives was a religious composer, but last I looked
there were no believers around to finish his Universe Symphony.

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
I've been a Christian for many years but I have had only a few
special experiences praising God in a congregation of Christians.
These experiences were indeed special, and impossible to reproduce
regardless of what music were to be played.

As for: "there are
cultures that are far more developed than our own, as far as
invoking spirits"

Nothing new here. There is real money and counterfeit. The
counterfeit exists to deceive you. Both seem the same but all
the counterfeits are worthless.

Saw something on PBS (Greene?) about string theory. Interesting.

"I happen to agree that
> >music is the foundation of the Universe (string theory is
correct)"

String theory states that there are multiple dimensions. I
agree, heaven and hell are two.

(if this is pushed to meta let me know)

Stephen Szpak

> I would say that certain people either have or develop a way to
perform
> music that touches upon these these , or draws energy from a
similar place .
> But even in the category of 'religious music" , the intent and
practice
> can be quite varied.
> In the west , i would say we are quite comfortable
to 'devotional'
> music and while we have a 'market' of 'healing music, there are
> cultures that are far more developed than our own, as far as
invoking
> spirits, guides, protection, etc. Some has been developed to
induce
> trance, but even these trance states can vary in intent.
> What i hear though in what you have here is that music in
itself has
> it own religious status independent of the other practices it has
> historically been attached to. I would wholly agree and consider
my self
> a practitioner of just such a practice.
> Mircea Eliade mentioned that much of western art has achieved
little
> beyond being the secularization of sacred objects.
> It seems there are those of us who see the possibility of
spiritization
> of the secular activities
>
>
> Neil Haverstick wrote:
>
> > I've been listening to a lot of Bach, as well as reading some
stuff about
> >him, and it made me think...Rosalyn Tureck and many others remark
on how
> >Bach often dedicated his musical works to God, and that he was a
very
> >spiritually oriented man, with a strong Lutheran faith. This
being so, I
> >started wondering if a person who performed Bach's music, but
didn't have
> >the same sort of spiritual beliefs, could achieve the same sort
of emotional
> >depth and power that a person who DID share those same values,
when they
> >played Bach's music. And it's interesting, if one looks at a lot
of cultures
> >around the world, from Indian to Arabic to Chinese to ancient
Greece, that
> >music was always associated with deeper metaphysical meanings,
and Universal
> >correspondences. Most cultures felt sound was the very foundation
of the
> >whole Universal structure, so naturally, music could be a very
powerful
> >force in the physical world. Music certainly wasn't meant to be
only
> >entertainment, and often was seen as a path to God/the Creator,
however one
> >chooses to say it.
> > I feel that today, unfortunately, music is being misused in
many ways,
> >and the deeper meanings have been largely forgotten. I happen to
agree that
> >music is the foundation of the Universe (string theory is
correct), and if
> >more people would concentrate on those deeper meanings through
their music
> >(or any art), I truly believe musicians could become a powerful
force for
> >good across the planet...I'm hoping to be one who helps to make
that happen,
> >cause we sure need it right about now...HHH
> >microstick.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

80 percent Christian majority?
Derived from counting how many people use the words "Jesus Christ"?
Exposing children to beliefs other than what their parents tell them
is not harmful. Luckily there are always children around to notice
things previous generations didn't. Otherwise we'd all be
illiterate cavemen.

In regard to Bach, spiritual beliefs don't create passion, it's the
other way around. Chances are, too, that the dedication came after
the composition, and passion for music (and fascination with it) was
obviously just as strong a motivator for Bach during the actual
composition.

-Chuckk

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> Neil wrote:
> I've been listening to a lot of Bach, as well as reading some
stuff about
> him, and it made me think...Rosalyn Tureck and many others remark
on how
> Bach often dedicated his musical works to God, and that he was a
very
> spiritually oriented man, with a strong Lutheran faith. This being
so, I
> started wondering if a person who performed Bach's music, but
didn't have
> the same sort of spiritual beliefs, could achieve the same sort of
emotional
> depth and power that a person who DID share those same values,
when they
> played Bach's music.
> I love 'ya, guy, but you are barking up the wrong tree. Bach
wrote for every
> kind of religious organization, inlcuding Catholic and Pietist.
Have you
> forgotten that non-Christ believer Irving Berlin wrote "White
Christmas"?
>
> But more to the point, why shouldn't a non-religous person then
argue in
> contradistinction that religous people are adled by a non-existent
reality. The
> 80 percent Christian majority has just produced the farce of the
anti-Christmas
> war, which was very harmful to children who believed this true.
>
> Still more to the point, Ives was a religious composer, but last I
looked
> there were no believers around to finish his Universe Symphony.
>
> Johnny
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick"
<microstick@m...> wrote:

Neil

... Music certainly wasn't meant to be only
> entertainment, and often was seen as a path to God/the Creator,
however one
> chooses to say it...I feel that today, unfortunately, music is
being misused in many ways,
> and the deeper meanings have been largely forgotten...I truly
believe musicians could become a powerful force for
> good across the planet...I'm hoping to be one who helps to make
that happen...

+++++++++++++Feel free to continue here if you wish. Hope I
wasn't too offense in my previous statements.

Was thinking about the words WITH the music, and how the words
of a song can... well we can continue if you wish.

My Best,

Stephen Szpak

__________________________________________________________________

>
> I've been listening to a lot of Bach, as well as reading some
stuff about
> him, and it made me think...Rosalyn Tureck and many others remark
on how
> Bach often dedicated his musical works to God, and that he was a
very
> spiritually oriented man, with a strong Lutheran faith. This being
so, I
> started wondering if a person who performed Bach's music, but
didn't have
> the same sort of spiritual beliefs, could achieve the same sort of
emotional
> depth and power that a person who DID share those same values,
when they
> played Bach's music.

🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chuckk Hubbard"
> <BadMuthaHubbard@h...> wrote:
>
>
> Chuckk
>
> "...spiritual beliefs don't create passion"
>
> Is this comment about Bach alone or the human race?
>
> Stephen Szpak

Oops, just found this. It applies to a little of both. Religious
beliefs alone didn't make Bach the composer he was, in fact I would
go so far as to say they had nothing to do with his skill. And as
regards the human race, spiritual beliefs are most often not the
cause but the rationalization of the cause. Or projection.

>
>
> >
> > 80 percent Christian majority?
> > Derived from counting how many people use the words "Jesus
Christ"?
> > Exposing children to beliefs other than what their parents tell
> them
> > is not harmful. Luckily there are always children around to
> notice
> > things previous generations didn't. Otherwise we'd all be
> > illiterate cavemen.
> >
> >
> > In regard to Bach, spiritual beliefs don't create passion, it's
> the
> > other way around. Chances are, too, that the dedication came
> after
> > the composition, and passion for music (and fascination with it)
> was
> > obviously just as strong a motivator for Bach during the actual
> > composition.
> >
> > -Chuckk
> >
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Just thought I'd balance out some of the crap Stephen's been
posting here for months on end. Why is one side of the coin
OK and the other taboo?

I'm getting a bit tired of respecting Christianity. Since
when are all ideas worthy of respect?

-Carl

At 01:16 AM 6/22/2006, you wrote:
>Can I just suggest that both previous posts by Carl and Stephen were a
>bit out of line.
>
>There are many things I could respond to in both posts, but I won't
>because it's OT.
>
>Suffice it to say, ranking religious beliefs in terms of "advanceness"
>and relegating some beliefs to a primitive past is quite similar to
>people who call 12et the "modern, advanced" tuning, dismissing any
>possible relevance of "archaic, primitive" tunings like JI. In either
>case, it's *not cool.*
>
>I don't get angry about these things and I'm not going to start a
>flame war, but I think it would be beneficial to maintain a respectful
>agnosticism and to refrain from recommending that Christian musicians
>should "upgrade" to more advanced ways of thinking. Christian faith
>continues to motivate the creation of art today.
>
>I recommend the following link, which I discovered through Mamoru
>Fujieda, a *microtonal* composer...
>
>http://www.iamny.org/
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Chris

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

On Thursday 22 June 2006 3:16 am, c.m.bryan wrote:
> Christian faith
> continues to motivate the creation of art today.

...as well as hatred of the natural and of the body, anti-scientific thinking,
xenophobia, homophobia, agressive wars of ideological bent which have
negative global consequences for economics and peace, keeping the Southern
U.S. and a good chunk of the North in the Dark Ages...I could go on and on,
but you get the point.

I wish I could say that only Fundamentalists behave this way, but alas, I see
it everyday in all but the most liberal denominations.

I have to agree with Carl or with anyone else who would say that Bach was a
musical genius in spite of, not because of, his faith. Although I can admit
that it certainly inspired him (at least at one point in his life--all his
late works are remarkably abstract and free of Christian theology, save sign
'Solo Dei Gloria' on the manuscripts)

To quote Nietzsche:

"In Christianity, neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality
at any point. Nothing but imaginary causes ['God', 'soul', 'ego', 'spirit',
'free will'-or 'unfree will']: nothing but imaginary effects ['sin',
'redemption', 'grace', 'punishment', 'forgiveness of sins']. A traffic
between imaginary beings ['God', 'spirits', 'souls']; and imaginary natural
science [anthropocentric; complete lack of concept of natural causes]; and
imaginary psychology [nothing but self-misunderstandings, interpretations of
pleasant or unpleasant general feelings, for example the condition of nervus
sympathicus, with the aid of the sign-language of religio-moral
idiosyncrasy-'repentance', 'sting of conscience', 'temptation by the Devil',
'the proximity of God']; an imaginary teleology ['the kingdom of God', 'the
Last Judgment', 'eternal life'].

This purely fictitious world is distinguished from the world of dreams, very
much to its disadvantage, by the fact that the latter mirrors actuality,
while the former falsifies, disvalues and denies actuality. Once the concept
'nature' had been devised as the concept antithetical to 'God', 'natural' had
to be the word for 'reprehensible'-this entire fictional world has its roots
in hatred of the natural [actuality!], it is the expression of a profound
discontent with the actual . . . But that explains everything. Who alone has
reason to lie himself out of actuality? He who suffers from it."

or:

"I make war on this theologian instinct: I have found traces of it everywhere.
Whoever has theologian blood in his veins has a wrong and dishonest attitude
towards all things from the very first. The pathos that develops out of this
is called faith: closing one's eyes with respect to oneself for good and all
so as not to suffer from the sight of incurable falsity. Out of this
erroneous perspective on all things one makes a morality, a virtue, a
holiness for oneself, one unites the good conscience with seeing falsely-one
demands that no other perspective shall be accorded any value after one has
rendered one's own sacrosanct with the names 'God', 'redemption', 'eternity'.
I have dug out the theologian instinct everywhere: it is the most widespread,
peculiarly subterranean form of falsity that exists on earth. What a
theologian feels to be true must be false: this provides almost a criterion
of truth. It is his deepest instinct of self-preservation which forbids any
part of reality whatever to be held in esteem or even spoken of . . ."

-Aaron.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗yahya_melb <yahya@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> not to place religion in this category, but fiction has always
inspired
> great art, in fact more so than science or philosophy.
> art is completely free of what is true or not

Plato said the same thing, as a condemnation.
Freud has inspired endless artists and works.
So have ideas like quantum physics and relativity, albeit in pretty
inaccurate ways.

Projection is one of the ideas Freud gave us that has been pretty
well accepted- more than some of his ideas- and I'd say it's one
thing artists and theists must both excel at: supposing one's own
impulses and responses to be coming from someone/something else.

My original point was that Bach's crediting works to god doesn't mean
he wouldn't have written them otherwise. Just like David Berkowitz
saying the barking dogs told him to kill doesn't mean he wouldn't
have killed if the dogs hadn't been barking.

-Chuckk

>
> c.m.bryan wrote:
> > Christian faith
> > continues to motivate the creation of art today.
> >
> > I recommend the following link, which I discovered through Mamoru
> > Fujieda, a *microtonal* composer...
> >
> > http://www.iamny.org/
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

obviously artist have been inspired by just about everything.
i am not sure that Bach would have written those works without this belief.

Jung pointed out that god is something that exist in the Psyche a priori and that to deny it is to suppress those aspects of it.
Suppression has never been a great inspiration.
Such things create visions beyond the horizon of mundane existence that who place in art cannot be ignored

it might be added that there there are those such as Pascal who dealt with the difference between inner and outer forms of a supreme something with
'I believe in god, but i do not know what god is'

anything i say that comes into conflict with Plato i take as an achievement.
his fascism and it subsequent infection of Philosophy is well illustrated in
" The Open Society and it Enemies' by Karl Popper

If the dogs hadn't have barked it might not have happened, just as if if certain poets had not met certain weapon, they might not have written certain poetry

Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> > wrote:
> >> not to place religion in this category, but fiction has always >> > inspired > >> great art, in fact more so than science or philosophy.
>> art is completely free of what is true or not
>> >
> Plato said the same thing, as a condemnation.
> Freud has inspired endless artists and works.
> So have ideas like quantum physics and relativity, albeit in pretty > inaccurate ways.
>
> Projection is one of the ideas Freud gave us that has been pretty > well accepted- more than some of his ideas- and I'd say it's one > thing artists and theists must both excel at: supposing one's own > impulses and responses to be coming from someone/something else.
>
> My original point was that Bach's crediting works to god doesn't mean > he wouldn't have written them otherwise. Just like David Berkowitz > saying the barking dogs told him to kill doesn't mean he wouldn't > have killed if the dogs hadn't been barking.
>
>
> -Chuckk
>
>
> >> c.m.bryan wrote:
>> >>> Christian faith
>>> continues to motivate the creation of art today.
>>>
>>> I recommend the following link, which I discovered through Mamoru
>>> Fujieda, a *microtonal* composer...
>>>
>>> http://www.iamny.org/
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> >>> >> -- >> Kraig Grady
>> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>> The Wandering Medicine Show
>> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

I was saying that you said the same thing as Plato, that art is not
truth. I realize you meant it in a liberating way, which is also how
I see it. John Hollander made a big deal out of saying nothing is
poetry that is literally true. I shy from absolutes, but I kind of
agree with this.

I take a different viewpoint with suppression and god-instinct. I say
the only reason god might exist as part of the psyche is to attribute
certain desires to another source than oneself. When people blow up
buses or train stations in the name of god, that is a rationalization.
The religious beliefs they would cite are obviously false beliefs,
and as such would not appeal to people who didn't want to do those
things. People with the same god, in other societies, might totally
eschew violence. Self-sacrifice has been around for centuries, often
accompanying desperation. On the other hand, people attribute their
own altruistic urges to god as well, but really they wouldn't do good
things, they wouldn't believe god wanted them to do good things, if
they didn't themselves want to.
In Jungian terms, one could say god is a complex.

I think suppressing feelings or impulses has always been a great
source of inspiration for artists. I believe even Jung suggested
this, that creativity arises from avoidance. Much of the work of the
Dadaists, Franz Kafka, Poe, R. Crumb, and David Lynch, just to name a
few, centers around this.

-Chuckk

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> obviously artist have been inspired by just about everything.
> i am not sure that Bach would have written those works without this
belief.
>
> Jung pointed out that god is something that exist in the Psyche a
> priori and that to deny it is to suppress those aspects of it.
> Suppression has never been a great inspiration.
> Such things create visions beyond the horizon of mundane existence that
> who place in art cannot be ignored
>
> it might be added that there there are those such as Pascal who dealt
> with the difference between inner and outer forms of a supreme
something
> with
> 'I believe in god, but i do not know what god is'
>
> anything i say that comes into conflict with Plato i take as an
> achievement.
> his fascism and it subsequent infection of Philosophy is well
> illustrated in
> " The Open Society and it Enemies' by Karl Popper
>
> If the dogs hadn't have barked it might not have happened, just as if
> if certain poets had not met certain weapon, they might not have
written
> certain poetry
>
> Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> not to place religion in this category, but fiction has always
> >>
> > inspired
> >
> >> great art, in fact more so than science or philosophy.
> >> art is completely free of what is true or not
> >>
> >
> > Plato said the same thing, as a condemnation.
> > Freud has inspired endless artists and works.
> > So have ideas like quantum physics and relativity, albeit in pretty
> > inaccurate ways.
> >
> > Projection is one of the ideas Freud gave us that has been pretty
> > well accepted- more than some of his ideas- and I'd say it's one
> > thing artists and theists must both excel at: supposing one's own
> > impulses and responses to be coming from someone/something else.
> >
> > My original point was that Bach's crediting works to god doesn't mean
> > he wouldn't have written them otherwise. Just like David Berkowitz
> > saying the barking dogs told him to kill doesn't mean he wouldn't
> > have killed if the dogs hadn't been barking.
> >
> >
> > -Chuckk
> >
> >
> >
> >> c.m.bryan wrote:
> >>
> >>> Christian faith
> >>> continues to motivate the creation of art today.
> >>>
> >>> I recommend the following link, which I discovered through Mamoru
> >>> Fujieda, a *microtonal* composer...
> >>>
> >>> http://www.iamny.org/
> >>>
> >>> Respectfully,
> >>>
> >>> Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Kraig Grady
> >> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> >> The Wandering Medicine Show
> >> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chuckk Hubbard"
<BadMuthaHubbard@...> wrote:

In Jungian terms, one could say god is a complex.
___________________________________________________________

"What is truth?" Pilate (John Chapter 18)

You could ask God if He is real. There are some that have
beliefs so strong they can't even do that.

-Stephen

> I take a different viewpoint with suppression and god-instinct. I
say
> the only reason god might exist as part of the psyche is to
attribute
> certain desires to another source than oneself. When people blow
up
> buses or train stations in the name of god, that is a
rationalization.
> The religious beliefs they would cite are obviously false beliefs,
> and as such would not appeal to people who didn't want to do those
> things. People with the same god, in other societies, might
totally
> eschew violence. Self-sacrifice has been around for centuries,
often
> accompanying desperation. On the other hand, people attribute
their
> own altruistic urges to god as well, but really they wouldn't do
good
> things, they wouldn't believe god wanted them to do good things, if
> they didn't themselves want to.
> In Jungian terms, one could say god is a complex.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Jung would definitely question identifying god with apart of one self as leading to nothing but ego inflation. which i did need to be corrected on
he would say that it is impossible to suppress anything, that the collective unconscious is more powerful than anything the ego can place in it way.
If fact the more one tries , the more horrid the form in which it comes out.
I disagree that these artist had anything to do with promoting suppression, kinda like whipping ones self.
If anything they strive to liberate us from societies suppression.
Breton is quite articulate on this subject

Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
> I was saying that you said the same thing as Plato, that art is not
> truth. I realize you meant it in a liberating way, which is also how
> I see it. John Hollander made a big deal out of saying nothing is
> poetry that is literally true. I shy from absolutes, but I kind of
> agree with this.
>
> I take a different viewpoint with suppression and god-instinct. I say
> the only reason god might exist as part of the psyche is to attribute
> certain desires to another source than oneself. When people blow up
> buses or train stations in the name of god, that is a rationalization.
> The religious beliefs they would cite are obviously false beliefs,
> and as such would not appeal to people who didn't want to do those
> things. People with the same god, in other societies, might totally
> eschew violence. Self-sacrifice has been around for centuries, often
> accompanying desperation. On the other hand, people attribute their
> own altruistic urges to god as well, but really they wouldn't do good
> things, they wouldn't believe god wanted them to do good things, if
> they didn't themselves want to.
> In Jungian terms, one could say god is a complex.
>
> I think suppressing feelings or impulses has always been a great
> source of inspiration for artists. I believe even Jung suggested
> this, that creativity arises from avoidance. Much of the work of the
> Dadaists, Franz Kafka, Poe, R. Crumb, and David Lynch, just to name a
> few, centers around this.
>
> -Chuckk
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >> obviously artist have been inspired by just about everything.
>> i am not sure that Bach would have written those works without this
>> > belief.
> >> Jung pointed out that god is something that exist in the Psyche a >> priori and that to deny it is to suppress those aspects of it.
>> Suppression has never been a great inspiration.
>> Such things create visions beyond the horizon of mundane existence that >> who place in art cannot be ignored
>>
>> it might be added that there there are those such as Pascal who dealt >> with the difference between inner and outer forms of a supreme
>> > something > >> with
>> 'I believe in god, but i do not know what god is'
>>
>> anything i say that comes into conflict with Plato i take as an >> achievement.
>> his fascism and it subsequent infection of Philosophy is well >> illustrated in
>> " The Open Society and it Enemies' by Karl Popper
>>
>> If the dogs hadn't have barked it might not have happened, just as if >> if certain poets had not met certain weapon, they might not have
>> > written > >> certain poetry
>>
>> Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
>> >>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>> not to place religion in this category, but fiction has always >>>> >>>> >>> inspired >>> >>> >>>> great art, in fact more so than science or philosophy.
>>>> art is completely free of what is true or not
>>>> >>>> >>> Plato said the same thing, as a condemnation.
>>> Freud has inspired endless artists and works.
>>> So have ideas like quantum physics and relativity, albeit in pretty >>> inaccurate ways.
>>>
>>> Projection is one of the ideas Freud gave us that has been pretty >>> well accepted- more than some of his ideas- and I'd say it's one >>> thing artists and theists must both excel at: supposing one's own >>> impulses and responses to be coming from someone/something else.
>>>
>>> My original point was that Bach's crediting works to god doesn't mean >>> he wouldn't have written them otherwise. Just like David Berkowitz >>> saying the barking dogs told him to kill doesn't mean he wouldn't >>> have killed if the dogs hadn't been barking.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Chuckk
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >>>> c.m.bryan wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>>>> Christian faith
>>>>> continues to motivate the creation of art today.
>>>>>
>>>>> I recommend the following link, which I discovered through Mamoru
>>>>> Fujieda, a *microtonal* composer...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.iamny.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kraig Grady
>>>> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>>> The Wandering Medicine Show
>>>> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >> -- >> Kraig Grady
>> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>> The Wandering Medicine Show
>> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

I think you're right, Jung would say that the feelings will emerge
one way or another. I don't think that's necessarily always true
though. People are capable of repressing feelings for their entire
lives, if the punishment or helplessness early in life was strong
enough.

The Dadaists, it's true, were more interested in liberation; their
art was born of suppression, but did not perpetuate it. Kafka, on
the other hand, was seriously repressed, probably all his life, and
his works really do dwell on failure and disappointment. His short
parable "Before the Law" presents a man who has a chance for justice
and wastes his life not pursuing it. Poe, too, when he asks the
raven to leave him and it replies "nevermore." That's not liberation.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> Jung would definitely question identifying god with apart of one
self as
> leading to nothing but ego inflation. which i did need to be
corrected on
> he would say that it is impossible to suppress anything, that the
> collective unconscious is more powerful than anything the ego can
place
> in it way.
> If fact the more one tries , the more horrid the form in which it
comes
> out.
> I disagree that these artist had anything to do with promoting
> suppression, kinda like whipping ones self.
> If anything they strive to liberate us from societies suppression.
> Breton is quite articulate on this subject
>
>
> Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
> > I was saying that you said the same thing as Plato, that art is
not
> > truth. I realize you meant it in a liberating way, which is also
how
> > I see it. John Hollander made a big deal out of saying nothing is
> > poetry that is literally true. I shy from absolutes, but I kind
of
> > agree with this.
> >
> > I take a different viewpoint with suppression and god-instinct.
I say
> > the only reason god might exist as part of the psyche is to
attribute
> > certain desires to another source than oneself. When people blow
up
> > buses or train stations in the name of god, that is a
rationalization.
> > The religious beliefs they would cite are obviously false
beliefs,
> > and as such would not appeal to people who didn't want to do those
> > things. People with the same god, in other societies, might
totally
> > eschew violence. Self-sacrifice has been around for centuries,
often
> > accompanying desperation. On the other hand, people attribute
their
> > own altruistic urges to god as well, but really they wouldn't do
good
> > things, they wouldn't believe god wanted them to do good things,
if
> > they didn't themselves want to.
> > In Jungian terms, one could say god is a complex.
> >
> > I think suppressing feelings or impulses has always been a great
> > source of inspiration for artists. I believe even Jung suggested
> > this, that creativity arises from avoidance. Much of the work of
the
> > Dadaists, Franz Kafka, Poe, R. Crumb, and David Lynch, just to
name a
> > few, centers around this.
> >
> > -Chuckk
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@>
wrote:
> >
> >> obviously artist have been inspired by just about everything.
> >> i am not sure that Bach would have written those works without
this
> >>
> > belief.
> >
> >> Jung pointed out that god is something that exist in the Psyche
a
> >> priori and that to deny it is to suppress those aspects of it.
> >> Suppression has never been a great inspiration.
> >> Such things create visions beyond the horizon of mundane
existence that
> >> who place in art cannot be ignored
> >>
> >> it might be added that there there are those such as Pascal who
dealt
> >> with the difference between inner and outer forms of a supreme
> >>
> > something
> >
> >> with
> >> 'I believe in god, but i do not know what god is'
> >>
> >> anything i say that comes into conflict with Plato i take as an
> >> achievement.
> >> his fascism and it subsequent infection of Philosophy is well
> >> illustrated in
> >> " The Open Society and it Enemies' by Karl Popper
> >>
> >> If the dogs hadn't have barked it might not have happened, just
as if
> >> if certain poets had not met certain weapon, they might not have
> >>
> > written
> >
> >> certain poetry
> >>
> >> Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
> >>
> >>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
<kraiggrady@>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> not to place religion in this category, but fiction has always
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> inspired
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> great art, in fact more so than science or philosophy.
> >>>> art is completely free of what is true or not
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Plato said the same thing, as a condemnation.
> >>> Freud has inspired endless artists and works.
> >>> So have ideas like quantum physics and relativity, albeit in
pretty
> >>> inaccurate ways.
> >>>
> >>> Projection is one of the ideas Freud gave us that has been
pretty
> >>> well accepted- more than some of his ideas- and I'd say it's
one
> >>> thing artists and theists must both excel at: supposing one's
own
> >>> impulses and responses to be coming from someone/something else.
> >>>
> >>> My original point was that Bach's crediting works to god
doesn't mean
> >>> he wouldn't have written them otherwise. Just like David
Berkowitz
> >>> saying the barking dogs told him to kill doesn't mean he
wouldn't
> >>> have killed if the dogs hadn't been barking.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Chuckk
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> c.m.bryan wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Christian faith
> >>>>> continues to motivate the creation of art today.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I recommend the following link, which I discovered through
Mamoru
> >>>>> Fujieda, a *microtonal* composer...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.iamny.org/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Respectfully,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Kraig Grady
> >>>> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
<http://anaphoria.com/>
> >>>> The Wandering Medicine Show
> >>>> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Kraig Grady
> >> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
<http://anaphoria.com/>
> >> The Wandering Medicine Show
> >> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

Neil, with the all respect I would disagree here, Bach didn't work with variation principle too often, with few exceptions (Goldberg variations...). There are much bigger masters of variation principle in music history than Bach. His working style is not based on developing motifs and themes, and changing their shape or intervallic structure. It's more simple, more static than dynamic. Usually in his counterpoint works he used only one theme and yes, did bigger polyphonic works from it, but it's not done by "developing", I would be careful concerning use of this term here with counterpoint. Motifs are just combined in time as they are, not developed. Of course he used intervallic inversion and retrograde of the motif, also transpositions and modal changes (mainly major to minor of opposite), and even shortening or atomization of motif, that's all. No developing work in the sense of later music styles (roughly said Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven started with this).
Feeling of eternity, yes, thanks to the limiting the music to monothematic like in many Bach's works... I would say his music is more static then later styles. More abstract than programmatic. More meditation than storytelling. Which is truth for Baroque music generally.

Daniel Forro

On Mar 13, 2011, at 2:49 AM, Neil Haverstick wrote:

>
> BTW...the reason I love Bach's music so much is that I believe > he was the greatest master of the variation that has yet existed. > He could develop the simplest motifs into the most astonishing > fugues, time after time. And, since variation, in all it's infinity > of guises, is the basis of the Universal structure, Bach's music > taps into this infinity more often than most other composers of > Western music. In fact, I often get a feeling of eternity when > hearing Bach...rather than his music being dated, in any sense, I > believe his art was/is timeless, and will be as profound 30,000 > years from now...best...Hstick
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>