Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning Music of the distant future

Maybe I'm a pessimist but I don't think much (if anything)
we compose will be remembered 600 years from now. I wonder
if there will even be recordings or scores of it.

Will popular music just cycle? We are already beginning to
reach the first 'in living memory' point. (I'm refering to
people born in 1940 or earlier.) These people can remember
the start of rock, for example.

No one living in the distant future is going to search
the distant past for what used to be popular music,
even if it is recorded. Millions of songs by then (assuming
the world continues on without cataclysm).

Also:

I mean how many beats are there? How may genres that are totally
different? A very short list regarding subject matter,
love, cars, and a few more.

I posted about this before (probably at MMM). I seemed to
remember getting responses along the lines of:

Music will go on forever. Music will always change because
it always has changed. Diversity will always be a part of music.

We wish for these things...

-Stephen

Barenaked Ladies Lyrics - Its All Been Done

And if I put my fingers here, and if I say
"I love you, dear"
And if I play the same three chords,
Will you just yawn and say

It's all been done
It's all been done
It's all been done before

Alone and bored on a 30th century night.

-Stephen

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

600 years from now people will still be astonished by recordings of Jimi
Hendrix, especially live like "Machine Gun".

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of stephenszpak
>Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 12:38 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Music of the distant future
>
>
>
> Maybe I'm a pessimist but I don't think much (if anything)
> we compose will be remembered 600 years from now. I wonder
> if there will even be recordings or scores of it.
>
> Will popular music just cycle? We are already beginning to
> reach the first 'in living memory' point. (I'm refering to
> people born in 1940 or earlier.) These people can remember
> the start of rock, for example.
>
> No one living in the distant future is going to search
> the distant past for what used to be popular music,
> even if it is recorded. Millions of songs by then (assuming
> the world continues on without cataclysm).
>
> Also:
>
> I mean how many beats are there? How may genres that are totally
> different? A very short list regarding subject matter,
> love, cars, and a few more.
>
> I posted about this before (probably at MMM). I seemed to
> remember getting responses along the lines of:
>
> Music will go on forever. Music will always change because
> it always has changed. Diversity will always be a part of music.
>
> We wish for these things...
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
> Barenaked Ladies Lyrics - Its All Been Done
>
> And if I put my fingers here, and if I say
>"I love you, dear"
>And if I play the same three chords,
>Will you just yawn and say
>
>It's all been done
>It's all been done
>It's all been done before
>
>Alone and bored on a 30th century night.
>
>-Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
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🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
Dante

Perhaps a better way of expressing it would be:

"Is anyone going to be searching back >500 years for
rock songs?"

I'm not talking about searching for the very best
drummers, guitarists, etc. right now, just typical
rock , Van Halen, whatever. Maybe they will listen to
the top 3 for the past 500 or 600 years let's say.
(Assuming they even exist then of course, on some server.)
Alot will just be regarded as another file in the library.
Like >99.9%. Who would have the time to search so much,
or just listen to 100,000 or more rock songs.

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Since we live in the here and now, I suggest anyone
here that doesn't know about Pandora would try it.
(I have no affiliation with them.)

http://www.pandora.com/

Internet radio that you can tune.

***********************************************************

http://www.pandora.com/mgp.shtml

The Music Genome Project

On January 6, 2000 a group of musicians and music-loving
technologists came together with the idea of creating the most
comprehensive analysis of music ever.

Together we set out to capture the essence of music at the most
fundamental level. We ended up assembling literally hundreds of
musical attributes or "genes" into a very large Music Genome. Taken
together these genes capture the unique and magical musical identity
of a song - everything from melody, harmony and rhythm, to
instrumentation, orchestration, arrangement, lyrics, and of course
the rich world of singing and vocal harmony. It's not about what a
band looks like, or what genre they supposedly belong to, or about
who buys their records - it's about what each individual song sounds
like.

Over the past 5 years, we've carefully listened to the songs of over
10,000 different artists - ranging from popular to obscure - and
analyzed the musical qualities of each song one attribute at a time.
This work continues each and every day as we endeavor to include all
the great new stuff coming out of studios, clubs and garages around
the world.

It has been quite an adventure, you could say a little crazy - but
now that we've created this extraordinary collection of music
analysis, we think we can help be your guide as you explore your
favorite parts of the music universe.

We hope you enjoy the journey.

Tim Westergren
Founder
The Music Genome Project

****************************************************************

-Stephen

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

One has only to hear a large body of his performances.
even in the same night by a 2nd set, he has already varied it from the last performance

monz wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
> wrote:
> >> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@> wrote:
>> >>> 600 years from now people will still be astonished by
>>> recordings of Jimi Hendrix, especially live like "Machine Gun".
>>> >> Maybe. You have to assume there will be 4 or 5 "Jimi"'s >> by then. The one the young will hear first will be the >> one currently on the stage. Also the only one that can
>> be seen and heard in the flesh.
>> >
>
> There will never be another Jimi.
>
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:

Well, the subject line(Music of the distant future) keeps
coming up anyway.

Hasn't music gone the way of science (as I posted a number
of weeks ago). Pure science has ended and applied science
in just building on what is already known.
**********************************************************
The Periodic Table of Elements was discovered just once.

The octave has been divided up:

http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/Octave.html

All the notes have been discovered.

**********************************************************

Haven't all the possible timbres been created? When was
the last time a group created a sound that was different?
I mean like when the first guy decades ago electrified
a guitar. That sound never existed before, ever. Now
haven't all the sounds that can exist been catagorized?
If I create a 'new' sound on a synth won't it fit into
some category of some sort? String, horn, organ etc.

***********************************************************

There will always be more melodies. I understand that.

Aren't all the basics done?Period. I have listed 2 examples
above. I'm sure there are more.

I know there isn't much
interest in finding the end of music. If anyone wants to
comment on what has AND has not been done in the field of
music I think it would be interesting. I'm hoping
for what might be called 'absolutes'. Like the division
of the octave above.

-Stephen

In The Year 2525 by Zager and Evans (excerpt)

Now it's been ten thousand years,
man has cried a billion tears,
for what he never knew,
now man's reign is through,

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Stephen,

> Haven't all the possible timbres been created? When was
> the last time a group created a sound that was different?

...and all the rest. Look, you've brought this kind of thing up on a
number of occasions, but it is looking increasingly like the situation
is that you, yourself, haven't been exposed to all the things in music
that you seem to think haven't existed. To even ponder if it has all
been done, and you haven't even been to a symphony concert (by your
own admission), and probably have not heard even a thumbnail of the
music that has been done in the last 100 years, in that realm, as well
as chamber music, ethnic musics from around the world, contemporary
classical music, and the myriad of popular forms.

The fact that you haven't even begun to scratch the surface of all the
music that is going on does not mean that nothing new or different, or
- most importantly - of value has occured. It just means you haven't
heard it, imagined it, or both.

I don't say this in a mean-spirited way, and I hope you can understand
that. But for those of us that not only find lots and lots of
compelling music to listen to, with so much being currently produced
as well, it is falling on deaf ears. If Kyle Gann thought there was
nothing new, would he still be composing regularly? If you only wanted
to examine some of the potent works from the last 50 or so years from
just the realm of contemporary classical music, you might do well to
read some of the archives at Kyle's blog, PostClassic. He is a great
writer, a lovely composer, and passionate champion of the music of our
time:

http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/

Cheers,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
Jon

I should have quit when I was behind.

New songs are being sung and played all the time.
This has nothing to do with what I'm refering to.

Some things can't be re-discovered or improved upon.
All the possible notes have been found. This has *not*
always been the case, but is a recent discovery.

If I hear 100 profoundly moving songs tonight it
won't expand the limits of music. They are set.
I'm just wondering what they are.

Maybe I'll figure them out as time passes. No need to
respond unless you really want. This matter seems
important. Only to me obviously.

Take care,

-Stephen

> Stephen,
>
> > Haven't all the possible timbres been created? When was
> > the last time a group created a sound that was different?
>
> ...and all the rest. Look, you've brought this kind of thing up on
a
> number of occasions...

🔗threesixesinarow <music.conx@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
>
> Hasn't music gone the way of science (as I posted a number
> of weeks ago). Pure science has ended and applied science
> in just building on what is already known.
> **********************************************************
> The Periodic Table of Elements was discovered just once.
>
> The octave has been divided up:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/Octave.html
>
> All the notes have been discovered.
>
> **********************************************************
>
> Haven't all the possible timbres been created? When was
> the last time a group created a sound that was different?
> I mean like when the first guy decades ago electrified
> a guitar. That sound never existed before, ever. Now
> haven't all the sounds that can exist been catagorized?
> If I create a 'new' sound on a synth won't it fit into
> some category of some sort? String, horn, organ etc.
>
> ***********************************************************

All of the plastics there are are named (or if you prefer, wood
species, metals and alloys, dyes and pigments, fibers and filaments)
but sometimes people are forgetful or inattentive, and somehow people
keep inventing new ones.

http://www.matweb.com/

🔗J.Smith <jsmith9624@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> All the notes have been discovered.

> Haven't all the possible timbres been created? When was
> the last time a group created a sound that was different?
> I mean like when the first guy decades ago electrified
> a guitar. That sound never existed before, ever. Now
> haven't all the sounds that can exist been catagorized?

> Aren't all the basics done?Period.

> I'm hoping for what might be called 'absolutes'. Like the division
> of the octave above.

My goodness, Stephen -- sounds like someone has been beating his head
against the 4/4 walls of "pop" music too long. Confusion and
disorientation have set in. I sympathize.

Using industry-produced, mass-marketed, homogenized and for-profit "pop"
music as a reference point from which to judge all other musics past and
future, seems a tad.....absolute, IMO. I make a concentrated effort to
avoid the stuff like the poison it is....which ain't easy, since it
blares -- loudly and constantly -- from every corner of consumer
society.

Try going to your local library (a public institution specializing in
the accumulation of human arts, sciences and literature...and stored on
various hard-copy media) and finding the "Music" section, Stephen. You
will find an astonishing array of beautiful music to enjoy, all for
free. Just stay away from the "pop" section at all costs.

And yes...much of it will use the same pitches and timbres that have
already been "categorized". Rather like human language -- always the
same letters, words and sentences used over and over again. But still
adequate to expressing the most sublime (or depraved, if you wish) of
human thought and emotions.

"Absolutes are the brushes with which we paint ourselves into
unescapable corners." -- Ah Chu, fictitious Oriental Master of Wisdom

🔗J.Smith <jsmith9624@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> Some things can't be re-discovered or improved upon.
> All the possible notes have been found. This has *not*
> always been the case, but is a recent discovery.

> If I hear 100 profoundly moving songs tonight it
> won't expand the limits of music. They are set.
> I'm just wondering what they are.

I'm curious, Stephen -- how can you state that the "limits of music" are
set and cannot be expanded, and then wonder what those limits are?

But I think I understand. Yes, there ARE certain limits within which
most music is constrained -- the extremes of human audibility, the
finite variations of timbre, the number of discrete pitches that can be
distinguished within a given a mount of time, the possible number of
pitch combinations, etc. These are limits of human physiology and
psychology. There are limits to ALL human artistic endeavor, not just
music. Yet it doesn't seem to deter the very human desire to push those
constraints a bit.

All human art must work within human physiological/psychological
limitations. Certain tendencies and patterns will always emerge because
they originate in human nature itself. They appeal to us. Gosh, we just
plain like 'em. The musical (and artistic) universe may be finite, but
it is also unbounded.

"Artists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your
limitations!" -- Ah Chu, fictitious oriental Pinko Artist

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "threesixesinarow"
<music.conx@...> wrote:

threesixesinarow and J. Smith

> >
> > Haven't all the possible timbres been created? When was
> > the last time a group created a sound that was different?
> >
> > ***********************************************************
>
> All of the plastics there are are named (or if you prefer, wood
> species, metals and alloys, dyes and pigments, fibers and
filaments)
> but sometimes people are forgetful or inattentive, and somehow
people
> keep inventing new ones.
>
> http://www.matweb.com/
>
+++++++++++ I know that my modest electronic keyboard perhaps
doesn't have every timbre on it. I would think that
a Kurzweil instrument would.

So you have the piano's in group 1. The violins
and similars in group 2. Horns in 3, etc. Most
musicians, and even music listeners today can hear
a 'new' timbre and immediately place it into a
category or some sort. I can't say I know of all
the categories right off the top of my head, but
I would think this there is some finite limit here.

Combining the piano with the flute, is just their
combination. Nothing is new.

If a key is struck on a synth piano and it sustains
for a minute (as other music is played by others)
we know this could not happen on a real piano. Yet
this is not new really.

I don't know how to describe this... But if we
hear a synthetic sound on a keyboard, electronic,
so to speak. We know if can be altered an infinite
number of ways, yet we could still recognize the
timbre as something electronic. Something outside
of nature.

There are the human boundaries too. If we hear
15 or 20 beats per second, they are no longer
heard as beats, but as a tone.

Humans hear at about the range of 20 to 20,000 Hz
(unless something binarul (sp.) is being done.

The JND limits the number of notes we can hear.
(J. Smith mentioned this.)

The greater the number of notes in a division of
the octave the harder it is for a single individual
to play. When I play in 24 it is *absolutely*
impossible to physically do the same things I can
in 12. Some major triads take both hands to play.

Generally speaking, if you're a man you can't sing
and sound like a woman, and the other way round.

OK so there is more too, more than likely, but so
what's the point?

Someone (forgot who) mentioned a while back when
I spoke of genres, that he didn't believe they
even existed. I do.

Barbershop and Boston and polkas are very different
to me and many others. I can instantly recognize
the difference when I hear them.

There are some here: (no I haven't read my own link
yet, busy,)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_genres

If we know *EXACTLY* what we can and can't do
maybe we could find/make a new genre. Maybe a few.

Maybe, like the types of movies out there:

science fiction
horror
comedy
science fiction/horror
romantic comedy

We have come to the end, or extremely close,
to the end of genres in music. If it's true it's
true. Nothing to be sad about.

Thanks for the responses,

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:

Gene

Thanks. Are you talking about the Perfect 5,
Major 3rd and all the other 12 EDO ratios?
Thought it was recent. My ignorance is showing.

(forgot what positive real numbers are)

-Stephen

>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
>
> > Some things can't be re-discovered or improved upon.
> > All the possible notes have been found. This has *not*
> > always been the case, but is a recent discovery.
>
> The positive real numbers are a very old discovery.
>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
> <genewardsmith@> wrote:
>
> Gene
>
> Thanks. Are you talking about the Perfect 5,
> Major 3rd and all the other 12 EDO ratios?
> Thought it was recent. My ignorance is showing.

My point was that these ratios have been understandable for a long
time. The ancient Greeks would have had no trouble defining what they
are, or what it means for a number to be between 1 and 2, because they
looked at the thing geometrically. They didn't have the "number line",
but they had its equivalent. Hence, in one sense to say that any new
intervals have been concocted is wrong.

In another sense, however, it is correct, and the field for new
compositions in tunings which have never been tried is wide open. I do
a lot of that, and just scratch the surface. Shaahin has been posting
away like mad putting up links to music in a wild profusion of tuning
systems lately. It's all out there, untouched and waiting to be tried.

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
> My point was that these ratios have been understandable for a long
> time. The ancient Greeks would have had no trouble defining what
they
> are, or what it means for a number to be between 1 and 2, because
they
> looked at the thing geometrically. They didn't have the "number
line",
> but they had its equivalent. Hence, in one sense to say that any
new
> intervals have been concocted is wrong.

Gene

+++++ They didn't have the whole Kyle Gann division of the
ocatave, did they? (or did they)

>
> In another sense, however, it is correct, and the field for new
> compositions in tunings which have never been tried is wide open.
I do
> a lot of that, and just scratch the surface. Shaahin has been
posting
> away like mad putting up links to music in a wild profusion of
tuning
> systems lately. It's all out there, untouched and waiting to be
tried.
>
+++++++++ I'm open to new genres. At least the ones that
sound like music.

Do you think that if someone came up with a new genre
that was created in 19 or 24, lets say, that it could
be brought into 12 EDO? I realize the notes can't, but
the sounds of the individuals instrments could, and the
beat could.

Tunings aside...do you think that there are a few
genres left to be created? I mean totally different.
(like Barbershop is vastly different from the music
that Boston made in the 70's). I know I'm a amatuer,
but I just see variations on theme. Different styles
of Rock, different styles and/or cominations of what
we now have.

Time permitting, I will check out Shaahin.

Does anyone anywhere keep a *on-going* list on-line
of the various genres. I think I found one last year.
Misplaced the address.

Thanks for responding,

-Stephen

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> +++++ They didn't have the whole Kyle Gann division of the
> ocatave, did they? (or did they)

They understood the numbers on it. Of course, Kyle's table is his
table; the Huygens-Fokker table is their table, Monz's list of 5-limit
intervals is Tonalsoft's table, and my list of 7-limit intervals is my
table. And so forth. Nothing to stop you from making your own table.

> Do you think that if someone came up with a new genre
> that was created in 19 or 24, lets say, that it could
> be brought into 12 EDO?

How successfully that could be done depends very much on the nature of
the music.

> Tunings aside...do you think that there are a few
> genres left to be created? I mean totally different.

I don't even know what genre I write in.

🔗monz <monz@...>

(i realize that this thread belongs on metatuning, but
the recent responses are pushing it back into tuning-list
territory ... i've altered the subject line, and if
any responses to this post should be posted to tuning.
i'm sending a copy of this to tuning.)

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@...m, "Gene Ward Smith"
> <genewardsmith@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > My point was that these ratios have been understandable for
> > a long time. The ancient Greeks would have had no trouble
> > defining what they are, or what it means for a number to
> > be between 1 and 2, because they looked at the thing
> > geometrically. They didn't have the "number line",
> > but they had its equivalent. Hence, in one sense to say
> > that any new intervals have been concocted is wrong.
>
>
> Gene
>
>
> +++++ They didn't have the whole Kyle Gann division of the
> ocatave, did they? (or did they)

There is no provable way for us to know what tuning was
used in the few extant examples of actual ancient Greek music.
All we can go on is the writings of the theorists which
have survived.

In brief, i can say that the ratios of their JI systems
included prime-factors 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 19, 23, and 31:

* all the rational theorists used 3;

* Eratosthenes, Didymus, and Ptolemy used 5;

* Archytas and Ptolemy used 7;

* Erastosthenes used 13 and 19;

* Ptolemy used 11 and 23;

* Didymus used 31.

The intervals of Aristoxenos and his followers were
measured as acoustically linear "parts" of a tone, and
most likely indicated something resembling 144-edo.

see these Encyclopedia entries:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/p/ptolemy.aspx
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/d/diatonic-genus.aspx
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/c/chromatic-genus.aspx
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/e/enharmonic-genus.aspx
http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/aristoxenus/318tet.htm

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Gene

>
> > Tunings aside...do you think that there are a few
> > genres left to be created? I mean totally different.
>
> I don't even know what genre I write in.
>
+++++++++++++ Thanks for responding.

Does your music follow Chris's simple equation?

_____________________________________________________________________

If you don't listen to experimental or (some kinds of) world music,
then everything you know is based almost entirely on the old rules.
Even neoprog, I promise. :-D (I'm a RIO fan myself...) The only
major exception I know of is rhythms and "blue" notes that crept in
from Africa on the slave ships.

To summarize:

Pop music theory == (DWEM_music - counterpoint) + modality +
african_music*.1

My little pet peeve is that, since most people have never heard
anything that's not based on this formula, they assume that nothing
else could ever exist. Hence the need for non-meantone tunings, etc.

-chris
___________________________________________________________________

/makemicromusic/topicId_13623.html#13626?l=1

-Stephen

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

the beat of pop music comes from the native americans.
even dixieland music develop its beat not from african sources but from 'indians. they were the ones drumming in the parks in new orleans that the wind players started to play against

stephenszpak wrote:
> Gene
>
> >>> Tunings aside...do you think that there are a few
>>> genres left to be created? I mean totally different.
>>> >> I don't even know what genre I write in.
>>
>> > +++++++++++++ Thanks for responding.
>
> Does your music follow Chris's simple equation?
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> If you don't listen to experimental or (some kinds of) world music,
> then everything you know is based almost entirely on the old rules.
> Even neoprog, I promise. :-D (I'm a RIO fan myself...) The only
> major exception I know of is rhythms and "blue" notes that crept in
> from Africa on the slave ships.
>
> To summarize:
>
> Pop music theory == (DWEM_music - counterpoint) + modality + > african_music*.1
>
> My little pet peeve is that, since most people have never heard
> anything that's not based on this formula, they assume that nothing
> else could ever exist. Hence the need for non-meantone tunings, etc.
>
> -chris
> ___________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_13623.html#13626?l=1
>
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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>
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>
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>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

Kraig (or anyone)

This is the list. Is it THE list? Valid?

Genres at Wikipedia:

Classical music
Gospel
Jazz
Latin American
The Blues
Rhythm and blues
Rock

Pop - Pop music is an important genre of popular music
distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music [1].
The term indicates specific stylistic traits but the genre also
includes artists working in many styles (rock, hip hop, rhythm and
blues (R&B), and country), and it is reasonable to say that "pop
music" is a flexible category. It may also be referred to as soft
rock or pop/rock.

Country music

Electronic music
Electronic dance music
Electronica

Melodic music
Ska, Reggae, Dub, and related forms
Punk rock
Hip hop / Rap / Rapcore
Contemporary African music
Grime

_____________________

This subject can become complex:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Genealogy_cuban_music.png

-Stephen

>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@> wrote:
> >
> Thanks Kraig.
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
> > the beat of pop music comes from the native americans.
> > even dixieland music develop its beat not from african sources
but
> from
> > 'indians. they were the ones drumming in the parks in new
orleans
> that
> > the wind players started to play against
> >
> >
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

to name something is not the same as the thing itself.
there are many individual art and musicmakers who do things that fit into no category.
.
or by describing them as such taint what they do which clouds our perception more than enlighten it
stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" > <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> Kraig (or anyone)
>
> This is the list. Is it THE list? Valid?
>
> Genres at Wikipedia:
>
> Classical music
> Gospel
> Jazz
> Latin American
> The Blues
> Rhythm and blues
> Rock
>
> Pop - Pop music is an important genre of popular music > distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music [1]. > The term indicates specific stylistic traits but the genre also > includes artists working in many styles (rock, hip hop, rhythm and > blues (R&B), and country), and it is reasonable to say that "pop > music" is a flexible category. It may also be referred to as soft > rock or pop/rock.
>
> Country music
>
> Electronic music
> Electronic dance music
> Electronica
>
> Melodic music
> Ska, Reggae, Dub, and related forms
> Punk rock
> Hip hop / Rap / Rapcore
> Contemporary African music
> Grime
>
> _____________________
>
> This subject can become complex:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Genealogy_cuban_music.png
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@> wrote:
>> >> Thanks Kraig.
>>
>> -Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> the beat of pop music comes from the native americans.
>>> even dixieland music develop its beat not from african sources >>> > but > >> from >> >>> 'indians. they were the ones drumming in the parks in new >>> > orleans > >> that >> >>> the wind players started to play against
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
> Kraig

Exactly. If someone has created new music, they have
created a new genre. At first I assmue the genre is their
name. Like, 'the music of Joe Shmo' .

If what a particalur artist does,
becomes widely accepted, they
may have lost the "Only I make music like this" category,
be we would have won something new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_genre

Moreover, the use of genre labels may actually drive the development
of new music (especially in a commercial context) insofar as it
helps cultivate the interest and participation of a target audience
in the early and middle stages of a musical trend.

(I'm interested in new music. But I must say that I must
love it.)

-Stephen

> to name something is not the same as the thing itself.
> there are many individual art and musicmakers who do things that
fit
> into no category.
> .
> or by describing them as such taint what they do which clouds our
> perception more than enlighten it
>
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> > <stephen_szpak@> wrote:
> >
> > Kraig (or anyone)
> >
> > This is the list. Is it THE list? Valid?
> >
> > Genres at Wikipedia:
> >
> > Classical music
> > Gospel
> > Jazz
> > Latin American
> > The Blues
> > Rhythm and blues
> > Rock
> >
> > Pop - Pop music is an important genre of popular music
> > distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music
[1].
> > The term indicates specific stylistic traits but the genre also
> > includes artists working in many styles (rock, hip hop, rhythm
and
> > blues (R&B), and country), and it is reasonable to say that "pop
> > music" is a flexible category. It may also be referred to as
soft
> > rock or pop/rock.
> >
> > Country music
> >
> > Electronic music
> > Electronic dance music
> > Electronica
> >
> > Melodic music
> > Ska, Reggae, Dub, and related forms
> > Punk rock
> > Hip hop / Rap / Rapcore
> > Contemporary African music
> > Grime
> >
> > _____________________
> >
> > This subject can become complex:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Genealogy_cuban_music.png
> >
> > -Stephen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@>
wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Kraig.
> >>
> >> -Stephen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> the beat of pop music comes from the native americans.
> >>> even dixieland music develop its beat not from african
sources
> >>>
> > but
> >
> >> from
> >>
> >>> 'indians. they were the ones drumming in the parks in new
> >>>
> > orleans
> >
> >> that
> >>
> >>> the wind players started to play against
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
> If someone has created new music, they have
> created a new genre.

That doesn't make any sense Stephen. There are plenty of musicians
that have created very singular bodies of work - not just one piece of
music, mind you - that don't define a "genre". More power to them, I say!

I can't see why you seem so obsessed with categorizing things, but you
are welcome to do so. But you need to also realize that many artists
completely abhor being pigeon-holed, which is what genres do. To each
their own.

> Moreover, the use of genre labels may actually drive the development
> of new music (especially in a commercial context) insofar as it
> helps cultivate the interest and participation of a target audience
> in the early and middle stages of a musical trend.

...at the same time developing an industry to not only make money off
of the musicians, but groom many, many other acts that are mere
clones, trying desparately to find more acts on their label to make
money off of. Fortunately, we're seeing the last days of these media
giants, and maybe music will evolve in a more natural manner, as it
used to.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@> wrote:
> > "Seeing Is Forgetting The Name Of The Thing One Sees".
>
> ++++ If we can't recognize what we see, what was it?

Why does not recognizing something mean we can't understand it??? Why
do things always have to either have a backward reference, or
implicitly start a new formulation/genre??? It is the implication of
not naming, not categorizing, not bend/fold/mutilate the object, but
merely (and profoundly) observe it, experience it, come to understand
it, that seems of paramount importance in my life.

The absolutely most important, impactful, meaningful art forms I've
come across came all by themselves, without my knowing that they
belonged to any other grouping. In fact, I've often wished some of my
favorite inspirational art (music/visual/etc) had many things _like_
them, and they don't!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>>
> ...at the same time developing an industry to not only make money off
> of the musicians, but groom many, many other acts that are mere
> clones, trying desparately to find more acts on their label to make
> money off of. Fortunately, we're seeing the last days of these media
> giants, and maybe music will evolve in a more natural manner, as it
> used to.
>
_________________________________________________________________
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side.

http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_music.html

> Cheers,
> Jon
>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@> wrote:
> > > "Seeing Is Forgetting The Name Of The Thing One Sees".
> >
> > ++++ If we can't recognize what we see, what was it?
>
> Why does not recognizing something mean we can't understand it???
Why
> do things always have to either have a backward reference, or
> implicitly start a new formulation/genre??? It is the implication
of
> not naming, not categorizing, not bend/fold/mutilate the object,
but
> merely (and profoundly) observe it, experience it, come to
understand
> it, that seems of paramount importance in my life.
>
> The absolutely most important, impactful, meaningful art forms I've
> come across came all by themselves, without my knowing that they
> belonged to any other grouping. In fact, I've often wished some of
my
> favorite inspirational art (music/visual/etc) had many things
_like_
> them, and they don't!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
Jon

+++++++ Just trying understand what can still be done in music.
Categorizing is part of this process in my opinion.
It is merely learning. We characterize the chords we
play as major and minor. The same with the actual
sounds used: piano, wind instrument, stringed instrument
and the others.

Without learning there is
mystery. Mystery sounds like a good thing, but it is
just ignorance.

I'm thinking about the music that was made from 1950
until 2000 and looking ahead from 2000 to 2050. I
just can't see how the creation of genres can continue
at the same pace. Maybe I should say, I don't know what's
left to do. I guess I'm thinking of 12 EDO music that
the general population (North America) would pay money
for.

Anyway, that's it Jon.

P.S It takes about 45 to 60 minutes for my posts to come up.

P.S. Heading out until the weekend.

-Stephen