Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Re: Composing basics

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "J.Smith" <jsmith9624@...>
wrote:
>
>
J. Smith

Tried 15 EDO for real for the first time today after
your suggestion regarding Scala. (I have practiced
where the notes/chords are for a long time indeed.
Still practicing.)

What is OK is the fifths at 720 cents. They seem just fine.
I was concerned about that. I wonder if I would regard
fifths at 740 as just fine too. That disturbs me a little,
but is currently irrelavent.

Composing basics:

I think learning the basics is the place to start.

"Enter by form. Exit from form."

Just downloaded Sibelius Scorch. I wasn't pleased about it
crashing my system. It is ammusing now that it's working.

Someone suggested:

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory22.htm

-Stephen

> "Any tone can succeed any other tone, any tone can sound
simultaneously
> with any other tone or tones, and any group of tones can be
followed by
> any other group of tones, just as any degree of tension or nuance
can
> occur in any medium under any kind of stress or duration.
>
> Successful projection will depend upon the contextual and formal
> conditions that prevail, and upon the skill and soul of the
composer."
> -- Vincent Persichetti, "20th-Century Harmony"
>
>
>
>
>
> "Everything in the Universe is permitted....but not everything
> permitted, is edifying." -- unknown
>

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>
wrote:
>

Chris

> > Someone suggested:
> >
> > http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory22.htm
>
> It would be good to keep in mind that, as someone else already said
> this is applicable to DWEM (Dead White European Music).
>
> Not only that, but a lot of these "rules" were invented long after
the
> actual music was written. It's not really how the composer was
> thinking.

++If these guys centuries past were so smart they didn't
need rules, why didn't they think of rock and pop and
all the rest? They must have had rules at a subconscious
level. They couldn't break them to create something new.

>
> Current popular music uses a bastardized version of this system.

+++++If you come across at site decribing this version someday
I'll check it out. Listening to Neoprog now. I don't think
it uses the old style rules.

I make really nice music at times. I have my moments.
Just don't know what I just did.

>
> Nevertheless, go with it, and best of luck! :)
>
> -chris
>
-Stephen

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> ++If these guys centuries past were so smart they didn't
> need rules, why didn't they think of rock and pop and
> all the rest? They must have had rules at a subconscious
> level. They couldn't break them to create something new.

I never said they didn't need rules! Only that they aren't the same
ones that we use today to describe their music. :) And they were
constantly breaking from them, ehich is why they did create things
that were new.

For instance, you'll see lots of roman numerals and stuff on that web
page you mentioned. They were developed to describe things like Bach
Chorales... however, Bach wouldn't have understood them, as the system
was invented (I think) in the 19th-century by Ravel.

As for why they "didn't think" of pop and rock, that's simple: to
them, it would have sounded like crap. Music can only make sense
inside of a historical-cultural context.

By the way, the sooner you stop calling them "rules" and start calling
them "guidelines," the better off you'll be. :)

> > Current popular music uses a bastardized version of this system.
>
>
> +++++If you come across at site decribing this version someday
> I'll check it out. Listening to Neoprog now. I don't think
> it uses the old style rules.

If you don't listen to experimental or (some kinds of) world music,
then everything you know is based almost entirely on the old rules.
Even neoprog, I promise. :-D (I'm a RIO fan myself...) The only
major exception I know of is rhythms and "blue" notes that crept in
from Africa on the slave ships.

To summarize:

Pop music theory == (DWEM_music - counterpoint) + modality + african_music*.1

My little pet peeve is that, since most people have never heard
anything that's not based on this formula, they assume that nothing
else could ever exist. Hence the need for non-meantone tunings, etc.

-chris

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

>
Chris

> As for why they "didn't think" of pop and rock, that's simple: to
> them, it would have sounded like crap. Music can only make sense
> inside of a historical-cultural context.

+++++++++ I don't know. I mean Bach and all the rest
played rock, etc. on their keyboards at least
once, then rejected the all these genres?
But I guess you're saying they never tried
to write music that was very different. Just
slightly so. Very different music is noise,
from what you've said. (Got to wonder how
a audience would have reacted to the very
best modern music with modern instruments,
back in Bach's time.)

>
> By the way, the sooner you stop calling them "rules" and start
calling
> them "guidelines," the better off you'll be. :)

+++++++ Sorry, rules doesn't seem right to me either.
Guidelines is almost a synonym, but I think I understand
your take on the word. Perhaps a word that implies
probablities. "Likelihoods" . Don't
think that's going to catch on though.
>
>
> > > Current popular music uses a bastardized version of this
system.
> >
> >
> > +++++If you come across at site decribing this version someday
> > I'll check it out. Listening to Neoprog now. I don't think
> > it uses the old style rules.
>
> If you don't listen to experimental or (some kinds of) world music,
> then everything you know is based almost entirely on the old rules.
> Even neoprog, I promise.

++++ Well that is unexpected.

Thanks,

Stephen

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>
wrote:

Chris

>
> > Very different music is noise,
> > from what you've said.
>
> That's the idea. It takes a lot of work listening to a new kind of
> music in order to begin to understand what's going on. A lot of
> people even call prog-rock "noise," for example.

+++++ Has a full orchestra ever played prog-rock in our time?

++++++++++++++++++ Did the composers of Bach's time know about
beat? I mean, nothing then had a beat did it?
I'm curious about this if you have a 'yes'
or 'no' answer about it, that's fine.

>
> > +++++++ Sorry, rules doesn't seem right to me either.
> > Guidelines is almost a synonym, but I think I
understand
> > your take on the word. Perhaps a word that implies
> > probablities. "Likelihoods" . Don't
> > think that's going to catch on though.
>
> How about suggestions? :)

++++++++++ All I meant was, that if a melody line was
the one here in the first full measure:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7441/greensleeves8hu.png

(Click on 'Expand to regular size')

The first full measure has the chord of A minor.

The melody is c d e f e

There is a low likelihood that the chord of F# major
would be used here. This is all I meant. This is what
you mean by guidelines, right, stuff like that?

>
> -chris

-Stephen

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> +++++ Has a full orchestra ever played prog-rock in our time?

I'm not sure about the relevance of the question ;) But the answer
depends on your definiton of prog: I know of orchestral recordings of
Yes and Pink Floyd, for example.

>
> ++++++++++++++++++ Did the composers of Bach's time know about
> beat? I mean, nothing then had a beat did it?
> I'm curious about this if you have a 'yes'
> or 'no' answer about it, that's fine.

Baroque music has lots of rhythm.

The kind of rhythms that exist in rock, blues, latin, etc. are newer
to Western music because they're derived from other areas of the
globe.

> There is a low likelihood that the chord of F# major
> would be used here. This is all I meant. This is what
> you mean by guidelines, right, stuff like that?

Basically... except that by that definition, a strange chord would be
defined as a freak accident (like flipping a coin to heads 100 times
in a row). But in music, defying a "guideline" isn't a matter of
probability, but a purposeful statement with a definite intention for
a deliberate effect. Make sense?

(I think this is still true for stochastic music as well, because the
probabilities *are* the guidelines.)

(Disregard the last sentence if you're not familiar)

;)

Chris

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>
wrote:
Chris

>
> > +++++ Has a full orchestra ever played prog-rock in our time?
>
> I'm not sure about the relevance of the question ;) But the answer
> depends on your definiton of prog: I know of orchestral
recordings of
> Yes and Pink Floyd, for example.

+++++++++ Thanks Chris. No relevance really. I just assume
that orchestras aren't hip enough in general.
I've never been to a orchestra though. When I think
about a full orchestra, I'm just inclined to think
of old music and operas. (Maybe some Christmas
music at the end of the year on TV.)

Also was wondering if rock could exist 100's
of years ago. It could have to some extent even
though moderen instruments didn't exist then. Of course
the 'sound' wouldn't be the same.

(Did ancient Eqyptians surf? hee hee)

>
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++ Did the composers of Bach's time know about
> > beat? I mean, nothing then had a beat did
it?
> > I'm curious about this if you have a 'yes'
> > or 'no' answer about it, that's fine.
>
> Baroque music has lots of rhythm.
>
> The kind of rhythms that exist in rock, blues, latin, etc. are
newer
> to Western music because they're derived from other areas of the
> globe.
>
+++++++++++ OK. I don't remember hearing a beat in old
music. Rhythm and beat are synonyms, right?

> > There is a low likelihood that the chord of F# major
> > would be used here. This is all I meant. This is what
> > you mean by guidelines, right, stuff like that?
>
> Basically... except that by that definition, a strange chord would
be
> defined as a freak accident (like flipping a coin to heads 100
times
> in a row). But in music, defying a "guideline" isn't a matter of
> probability, but a purposeful statement with a definite intention
for
> a deliberate effect. Make sense?

+++++++++ Yes if one knows what one is doing. If a melody line
in a given measure has certain notes, the chord that is in
effect then (for lack of better phrasing) will likely
be one of X number. The top 50% of the chords that
be. It is unlikley that it will be in the bottom 50%.
F# major in my example.
If I can maintance some motavation for this theory
stuff, I think I should learn the most likely
possibilities first.
>
> (I think this is still true for stochastic music as well, because
the
> probabilities *are* the guidelines.)
>
> (Disregard the last sentence if you're not familiar)
>
> ;)
>
> Chris
>
-Stephen

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
Kraig

I don't get out much, so to speak. If you or anyone here
says they play such and such now, I'll just go with that.

Maybe they play stuff like:

Bless The Child by Nightwish

That would be something to hear, minus the lyrics, which
I sure won't quote this time round. As bad as they get.

-Stephen

> i suggest you go to one with a fair amount of newer music.
> and i think your assumptions might be put to rest.
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> >
> > I've never been to a orchestra though. When I think
> > about a full orchestra, I'm just inclined to think
> > of old music and operas. (Maybe some Christmas
> > music at the end of the year on TV.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

wel then GET OUT
you only live once too young to close so many doors

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> > wrote:
> > Kraig
>
> I don't get out much, so to speak. If you or anyone here
> says they play such and such now, I'll just go with that.
>
> Maybe they play stuff like:
>
> Bless The Child by Nightwish
>
> That would be something to hear, minus the lyrics, which
> I sure won't quote this time round. As bad as they get.
>
> -Stephen
> >
> >> i suggest you go to one with a fair amount of newer music.
>> and i think your assumptions might be put to rest.
>>
>> stephenszpak wrote:
>> >>> I've never been to a orchestra though. When I think
>>> about a full orchestra, I'm just inclined to think
>>> of old music and operas. (Maybe some Christmas
>>> music at the end of the year on TV.)
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >> -- >> Kraig Grady
>> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>> The Wandering Medicine Show
>> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Hey Stephen -

{you wrote...}
>Excuse me??????????????
>
>I have to draw the line somewhere. I'd consider it totally evil to write lying lyrics about the women in your life.

What in the world are you reacting to? Kraig wrote:

>> wel then GET OUT
>> you only live once
>> too young to close so many doors

All he was saying was that you should open up to all the experiences that are out there in the world - you were wondering about things about the orchestra, and making assumptions that are decades and decades old without having even been to an orchestra concert. And Kraig just wanted you to broaden your horizons! I'm sure - I *know* - he didn't mean anything nasty about this!

Best,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>
wrote:
>
> Hey Stephen -
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Excuse me??????????????
> >
> >I have to draw the line somewhere. I'd consider it totally evil
to write lying lyrics about the women in your life.
>
> What in the world are you reacting to? Kraig wrote:
>
> >> wel then GET OUT
> >> you only live once
> >> too young to close so many doors
>
> All he was saying was that you should open up to all the
experiences that are out there in the world - you were wondering
about things about the orchestra, and making assumptions that are
decades and decades old without having even been to an orchestra
concert. And Kraig just wanted you to broaden your horizons! I'm
sure - I *know* - he didn't mean anything nasty about this!
>
> Best,
> Jon
>
Jon

++++++++++++++++ I was told to leave. This is what I'm
reacting to. I feel some lyrics should
never have been written.

Heck *I* posted that link
about Mad TV and their skit. Not totally
wholesome stuff.

-Stephen

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i wasn't tell you to leave , you said you don't get out much, i was just encouraging you to do so
i am very sorry you took it that way
stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> > wrote:
> >> Hey Stephen -
>>
>> {you wrote...}
>> >>> Excuse me??????????????
>>>
>>> I have to draw the line somewhere. I'd consider it totally evil >>> > to write lying lyrics about the women in your life. > >> What in the world are you reacting to? Kraig wrote:
>>
>> >>>> wel then GET OUT
>>>> you only live once >>>> too young to close so many doors
>>>> >> All he was saying was that you should open up to all the >> > experiences that are out there in the world - you were wondering > about things about the orchestra, and making assumptions that are > decades and decades old without having even been to an orchestra > concert. And Kraig just wanted you to broaden your horizons! I'm > sure - I *know* - he didn't mean anything nasty about this!
> >> Best,
>> Jon
>>
>> > Jon
> > ++++++++++++++++ I was told to leave. This is what I'm
> reacting to. I feel some lyrics should
> never have been written. >
> Heck *I* posted that link
> about Mad TV and their skit. Not totally
> wholesome stuff.
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
Kraig

Really sorry. It never occured to me you meant it that way.

Sorry,

-Stephen

_________________________________________________________

> i wasn't tell you to leave , you said you don't get out much, i
was just
> encouraging you to do so
> i am very sorry you took it that way
> stephenszpak wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hey Stephen -
> >>
> >> {you wrote...}
> >>
> >>> Excuse me??????????????
> >>>
> >>> I have to draw the line somewhere. I'd consider it totally
evil
> >>>
> > to write lying lyrics about the women in your life.
> >
> >> What in the world are you reacting to? Kraig wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>> wel then GET OUT
> >>>> you only live once
> >>>> too young to close so many doors
> >>>>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> +++++++++ Thanks Chris. No relevance really. I just assume
> that orchestras aren't hip enough in general.
> I've never been to a orchestra though. When I think
> about a full orchestra, I'm just inclined to think
> of old music and operas. (Maybe some Christmas
> music at the end of the year on TV.)

As if "old music" the likes of Beethoven's symphonies was a bad
thing!

Secondly, it sound to me like you've never heard any Bartok,
Stravinsky, or any such music. I actually envy you. If you were with
me last Saturday at the Chicago Symphony, they did "The Rite of
Spring", and you would have had your mind blown utterly. Talk about
BALLS!!! Talk about the invention of rock! This music still is way
hipper than any rock music you could throw at me. Light years
beyond, and full of great intense rhythm. Rhythm that could move you
to jump around energetically, body music, but way more intelligent,
sophisticated, and emotionally deep than *any* rock ever was.

Most rock music is utter garbage, a least common denominator music.

The exceptions (generally prog rock like Yes, King Crimson, Gentle
Giant, some Floyd, some Beatles) prove the rule.

Nothing nowadays anyway seems any good. It had a peak in the 70s and
died hard in the 80's.

I confess a fondness for some U2 however, especially their latest
stuff, which is no longer I and IV chords exclusively.

-Aaron.

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Aaron

I often listen to some classical music on the way home
from work. I want to destress, and usually I can depend
on the station I listen to to present me with uninspired
music.

Maybe it is me or maybe it is their selection. It is late
at night, maybe the fast and powerful stuff is for the
day-walkers.

I try to be open to music of certain genres. If you
know of some free classical music that you recommend,
even if it's only a clip, post the link if time permits.

-Stephen

> As if "old music" the likes of Beethoven's symphonies was a bad
> thing!
>
> Secondly, it sound to me like you've never heard any Bartok,
> Stravinsky, or any such music. I actually envy you.

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 6/14/06, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:
> Most rock music is utter garbage, a least common denominator music.
>
> The exceptions (generally prog rock like Yes, King Crimson, Gentle
> Giant, some Floyd, some Beatles) prove the rule.
>
> Nothing nowadays anyway seems any good. It had a peak in the 70s and
> died hard in the 80's.
>
> I confess a fondness for some U2 however, especially their latest
> stuff, which is no longer I and IV chords exclusively.
>
> -Aaron.

And I had always thought of U2 as common denominator rock.

I don't think most rock is utter garbage, not at all. It's simple,
yes, but so is a lot of great music. I'm listening to Neutral Milk
Hotel right now, they're one of those bands that can really grab ahold
of your heart, in a really immediate way that so little music manages
to do. Mind Gangsters, a term coined by Warren Ellis, is a good way to
describe it. Joe Meek did it with "Telstar" in the 60's, the Eels did
it with "Electro Shock Blues" in the 90's, and the Mountain Goats did
it not more than a few years ago with "Tallahassee". All of them rock
bands, more or less.

Songs like "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea" don't come along every day,
true, but they're more likely to be rock songs when they do. Don't get
me wrong, though, I love a lot of not-rock music, but generally I find
that I have to bring myself to the music, wheras rock music has a way
of bringing itself to me, grabbing ahold of me and making my brain go
exactly where they want it to go.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 6/14/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> Also was wondering if rock could exist 100's
> of years ago. It could have to some extent even
> though moderen instruments didn't exist then. Of course
> the 'sound' wouldn't be the same.

Ever heard of a band called "Apocalyptica"? They perform Metallica
covers on cellos. So it is possible. Not a good idea, but possible.

> +++++++++++ OK. I don't remember hearing a beat in old
> music. Rhythm and beat are synonyms, right?

Well, sort of. If you listen to the first Prelude from the WTC, it has
a very steady pulse. In other works (say... Musical Offering Ricercar
a 6) the beat is less obvious because there isn't a rhythm section to
articulate every downbeat, as we're familiar with. There's still a
very clear meter, though, and that doesn't go away until the arhythmic
and ametric leanings of modern music.

>
> > > There is a low likelihood that the chord of F# major
> > > would be used here. This is all I meant. This is what
> > > you mean by guidelines, right, stuff like that?
> >
> > Basically... except that by that definition, a strange chord would
> be
> > defined as a freak accident (like flipping a coin to heads 100
> times
> > in a row). But in music, defying a "guideline" isn't a matter of
> > probability, but a purposeful statement with a definite intention
> for
> > a deliberate effect. Make sense?
>
> +++++++++ Yes if one knows what one is doing. If a melody line
> in a given measure has certain notes, the chord that is in
> effect then (for lack of better phrasing) will likely
> be one of X number. The top 50% of the chords that
> be. It is unlikley that it will be in the bottom 50%.
> F# major in my example.
> If I can maintance some motavation for this theory
> stuff, I think I should learn the most likely
> possibilities first.

That's a gross oversimplification, see. If I have a melody line that
goes "a c c e g c" then for a really consonant minor sound I'd put it
in a minor. But if I want a more dramatic effect, I might have the
underlying chord be C Major, or even d# diminished depending on the
sound I want. d#dim with that note line would sound very dissonant and
might have the effect of destroying the tonal sense of the piece for a
moment, I'd use that as a transitional point to take off in a
completely different direction.

I find that theory is fun to play with, but when I'm writing music I
go more by how something sounds than what its theoretical importance
is.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "J.Smith" <jsmith9624@...>
wrote:
>
>
> "Any tone can succeed any other tone, any tone can sound
simultaneously
> with any other tone or tones, and any group of tones can be
followed by
> any other group of tones, just as any degree of tension or nuance
can
> occur in any medium under any kind of stress or duration.
>
> Successful projection will depend upon the contextual and formal
> conditions that prevail, and upon the skill and soul of the
composer."
> -- Vincent Persichetti, "20th-Century Harmony"
>
>
>
>
>
> "Everything in the Universe is permitted....but not everything
> permitted, is edifying." -- unknown
>

My freshman theory teacher studied with Persichetti. I know nothing
about him though.
What is a tone then?
When it's all said and done, music is finally dependent on
psychology. I think it's even going too far to divide a composition
into "this tone" followed by "that tone". What constitutes a unit in
the listener's mind depends on context, and the Law of Pragnanz- that
incoming stimuli will be organized into the best possible figure.
What is "best" changes as information is added. It's a combination
of simplicity and familiarity.
Familiarity in the sense that what is perceived as most simple
depends on the vocabulary the subject already has. An example:
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/hello.jpg
Wouldn't look the same if the word weren't part of your vocabulary.

🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson"
<aaron@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> > +++++++++ Thanks Chris. No relevance really. I just assume
> > that orchestras aren't hip enough in general.
> > I've never been to a orchestra though. When I think
> > about a full orchestra, I'm just inclined to think
> > of old music and operas. (Maybe some Christmas
> > music at the end of the year on TV.)
>
> As if "old music" the likes of Beethoven's symphonies was a bad
> thing!
>
> Secondly, it sound to me like you've never heard any Bartok,
> Stravinsky, or any such music. I actually envy you. If you were
with
> me last Saturday at the Chicago Symphony, they did "The Rite of
> Spring", and you would have had your mind blown utterly. Talk about
> BALLS!!! Talk about the invention of rock! This music still is way
> hipper than any rock music you could throw at me. Light years
> beyond, and full of great intense rhythm. Rhythm that could move
you
> to jump around energetically, body music, but way more intelligent,
> sophisticated, and emotionally deep than *any* rock ever was.
>
> Most rock music is utter garbage, a least common denominator music.
>
> The exceptions (generally prog rock like Yes, King Crimson, Gentle
> Giant, some Floyd, some Beatles) prove the rule.
>
> Nothing nowadays anyway seems any good. It had a peak in the 70s
and
> died hard in the 80's.
>
> I confess a fondness for some U2 however, especially their latest
> stuff, which is no longer I and IV chords exclusively.
>
> -Aaron.
>

Lol, while reading this my first thought was "come on, what
about 'Owner of a Lonely Heart'", but I see you mentioned Yes. Frank
Zappa was the greatest, though, receiving commission offers from all
sorts of orchestras. He was a monster.

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

TRISTAN

>
> On 6/14/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > Also was wondering if rock could exist 100's
> > of years ago. It could have to some extent even
> > though moderen instruments didn't exist then. Of
course
> > the 'sound' wouldn't be the same.
>
> Ever heard of a band called "Apocalyptica"? They perform Metallica
> covers on cellos. So it is possible. Not a good idea, but possible.
>
++++++++++++++ No I haven't. I'm going to have to start
writing these groups down. I have recently
started "serious" listening, if that is the
word for it, at Pandora. I hardly listened to
rock/pop at all for about 15 years or more.
I missed a lot of songs.

> > +++++++++++ OK. I don't remember hearing a beat in old
> > music. Rhythm and beat are synonyms, right?
>
> Well, sort of. If you listen to the first Prelude from the WTC, it
has
> a very steady pulse. In other works (say... Musical Offering
Ricercar
> a 6) the beat is less obvious because there isn't a rhythm section
to
> articulate every downbeat, as we're familiar with. There's still a
> very clear meter, though, and that doesn't go away until the
arhythmic
> and ametric leanings of modern music.

++++++++++ Sorry. I don't know what you are talking about.
I think I should start by listening to:

"the first Prelude from the WTC"

If this was just mentioned I just missed it.
Is a link available?

>
> >
> > > > There is a low likelihood that the chord of F# major
> > > > would be used here. This is all I meant. This is what
> > > > you mean by guidelines, right, stuff like that?
> > >
> > > Basically... except that by that definition, a strange chord
would
> > be
> > > defined as a freak accident (like flipping a coin to heads 100
> > times
> > > in a row). But in music, defying a "guideline" isn't a matter
of
> > > probability, but a purposeful statement with a definite
intention
> > for
> > > a deliberate effect. Make sense?
> >
> > +++++++++ Yes if one knows what one is doing. If a melody line
> > in a given measure has certain notes, the chord that
is in
> > effect then (for lack of better phrasing) will likely
> > be one of X number. The top 50% of the chords that
> > be. It is unlikley that it will be in the bottom 50%.
> > F# major in my example.
> > If I can maintance some motavation for this theory
> > stuff, I think I should learn the most likely
> > possibilities first.
>
> That's a gross oversimplification, see. If I have a melody line
that
> goes "a c c e g c" then for a really consonant minor sound I'd put
it
> in a minor. But if I want a more dramatic effect, I might have the
> underlying chord be C Major, or even d# diminished depending on the
> sound I want. d#dim with that note line would sound very dissonant
and
> might have the effect of destroying the tonal sense of the piece
for a
> moment, I'd use that as a transitional point to take off in a
> completely different direction.
>
> I find that theory is fun to play with, but when I'm writing music
I
> go more by how something sounds than what its theoretical
importance
> is.

++++++ Thanks. Someone is helping me off-list with theory.
I think I should learn the simple common stuff first.
If I even get that far. I see your point though. You
want to make something uncommon, regardless of theory.

Nice reply,

-Stephen

>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

TRISTAN

> On 6/14/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > Also was wondering if rock could exist 100's
> > of years ago. It could have to some extent even
> > though moderen instruments didn't exist then. Of
course
> > the 'sound' wouldn't be the same.
>
> Ever heard of a band called "Apocalyptica"? They perform Metallica
> covers on cellos. So it is possible. Not a good idea, but possible.

++++++++++ Have you heard this group:

http://www.theplanets.org.uk/video.cfm

http://www.theplanets.org.uk/downloads/rodrigo.mov

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 6/21/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> ++++++++++ Have you heard this group:
>
> http://www.theplanets.org.uk/video.cfm
>
> http://www.theplanets.org.uk/downloads/rodrigo.mov
>
> -Stephen

I hadn't heard of them, but the sample you linked isn't really my
thing. Too slick and dance-ish for my tastes.

>> Well, sort of. If you listen to the first Prelude from the WTC, it
has
>> a very steady pulse. In other works (say... Musical Offering
Ricercar
>> a 6) the beat is less obvious because there isn't a rhythm section
to
>> articulate every downbeat, as we're familiar with. There's still a
>> very clear meter, though, and that doesn't go away until the
arhythmic
>> and ametric leanings of modern music.
>>
>++++++++++ Sorry. I don't know what you are talking about.
> I think I should start by listening to:
>
> "the first Prelude from the WTC"
>
> If this was just mentioned I just missed it.
> Is a link available?

Sorry. Das wohltemperirte Clavier (Well Tempered Clavier, WTC) is one
of the most famous pieces of piano music ever written, so I just
assumed you would know about it. My mistake. I suggested it as an
example of something with a beat.

You can hear examples (with analyses) of the fugues at
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc.html

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 6/21/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > ++++++++++ Have you heard this group:
> >
> > http://www.theplanets.org.uk/video.cfm
> >
> > http://www.theplanets.org.uk/downloads/rodrigo.mov
> >
> > -Stephen
>
> I hadn't heard of them, but the sample you linked isn't really my
> thing. Too slick and dance-ish for my tastes.

+++++++++++ TRISTAN

I thought you'd love it. Maybe they have other stuff that
you might like. (manybe not, All I know of what they do
is at that link)

>
> >> Well, sort of. If you listen to the first Prelude from the WTC,
it
> has
> >> a very steady pulse...
> >++++++++++ Sorry. I don't know what you are talking about.

> > > Sorry. Das wohltemperirte Clavier (Well Tempered
Clavier, WTC) is one
> of the most famous pieces of piano music ever written, so I just
> assumed you would know about it. My mistake. I suggested it as an
> example of something with a beat.
>
> You can hear examples (with analyses) of the fugues at
> http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc.html

++++++++++++++ Ok. I remember hearing that term,
"Well Tempered Clavier". I never heard the
term WTC. (google gave me World Trade Center,
and some song, this didn't seem to be right)

-Stephen

>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>