Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning rhythm hemiolas

I believe its "pass the god-damned butter" and it gives 4:3

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:31 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: rhythm hemiolas
>
>
>> There are also lots of phrases for hemiolas. for
>> 3-in-the-space-of-2, there's good old "Pass the butter",
>> or "one cigarette".
>
>Phrases never helped me growing up -- my trumpet teacher
>would always use them. Pass the butter doesn't even sound
>like 3:2 to me now. One cigarette kinda does.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
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🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

well, tap 4:3 with two hands, and then chant the phrase along with it:
you'll see.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 3:35 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: rhythm hemiolas
>
>
>> I believe its "pass the god-damned butter" and it gives 4:3
>
>How the hell does that give 4:3?
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
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🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Pass the butter doesn't even sound
> like 3:2 to me now. One cigarette kinda does.

Dante already corrected Chris as to "butter" being the phrase that
belongs to 4:3. For 3:2 I always heard "not very hard". Sing it once
or twice for a student and they've got it.

There is a very lo-tech way to sketch out even the most difficult of
hemiolas/polyrhythms, but I can't write at length at the moment. I'll
try and type up a description later...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Afmmjr@...

Carl, listen to the first cycle of the Ives "Univese Symphony" for an aural education in polyrhythms." Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: Dante Rosati <dante@...>
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:59:12 -0400
Subject: RE: [metatuning] Re: rhythm hemiolas

I believe its "pass the god-damned butter" and it gives 4:3

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

I did that, and it isn't even close to working. There's too
much emphasis on damned and the 2nd syllable of butter. I mean,
I could come up with a lot of rhythms that sound like "pass the
god-damned butter" as good as this one. It's a terrible
instructional tool in my opinion. Rhythm cards, on the other
hand, are great.

-Carl

> well, tap 4:3 with two hands, and then chant the phrase along
> with it: you'll see.
>
> > > I believe its "pass the god-damned butter" and it gives 4:3
> >
> > How the hell does that give 4:3?

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> > Pass the butter doesn't even sound
> > like 3:2 to me now. One cigarette kinda does.
>
> Dante already corrected Chris as to "butter" being the phrase that
> belongs to 4:3.

That's a different phase (with the god-damned).

> For 3:2 I always heard "not very hard". Sing it once
> or twice for a student and they've got it.

Yes. 4:3 and 5:2 are also very easy.

> There is a very lo-tech way to sketch out even the most difficult of
> hemiolas/polyrhythms, but I can't write at length at the moment. I'll
> try and type up a description later...

What could be more low-tech than the multiplication already
described?

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> Carl, listen to the first cycle of the Ives "Univese Symphony"
> for an aural education in polyrhythms." Johnny

I can play all 5-limit polyrhythms in either hand without
thinking about it. The music of Henry Cowell, Nancarrow, and
others, are more instructive, I think, than the Universe
symphony as I've heard it.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> > Carl, listen to the first cycle of the Ives "Univese Symphony"
> > for an aural education in polyrhythms." Johnny
>
> I can play all 5-limit polyrhythms in either hand without
> thinking about it. The music of Henry Cowell, Nancarrow, and
> others, are more instructive, I think, than the Universe
> symphony as I've heard it.

I mean, right-left and left-right. I haven't practiced one-handed
polyrhythms as much, but I probably should.

-Carl

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

carl-

you cant use the phrase to learn a correct 4:3 rhythm, but once you learn
how to chant it with the correct "lilt" so that it matches the polyrhythm,
then it can be used as a mnemonic device to recall it later. Its like using
"every good boy does fine" to remember the notes on the lines of the treble
clef, nothing more mystical than that.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 2:15 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: rhythm hemiolas
>
>
>I did that, and it isn't even close to working. There's too
>much emphasis on damned and the 2nd syllable of butter. I mean,
>I could come up with a lot of rhythms that sound like "pass the
>god-damned butter" as good as this one. It's a terrible
>instructional tool in my opinion. Rhythm cards, on the other
>hand, are great.
>
>-Carl
>
>> well, tap 4:3 with two hands, and then chant the phrase along
>> with it: you'll see.
>>
>> > > I believe its "pass the god-damned butter" and it gives 4:3
>> >
>> > How the hell does that give 4:3?
>
>
>
>
>
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🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> I did that, and it isn't even close to working. There's too
> much emphasis on damned and the 2nd syllable of butter. I mean,
> I could come up with a lot of rhythms that sound like "pass the
> god-damned butter" as good as this one. It's a terrible
> instructional tool in my opinion.

We're all wired differently. I've used it with percussion students for
years and years, and it works like a charm. And it is a good entry
into the world of 2, 3, and 4-way independence.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Afmmjr@...

Carl,

Cycle one of Universe pitch, all within a 16 second unit, polyrhythms of
1 (low bell) against 2 (bass drum) against 3 (low gong) against 4 (second bass drum) against 5 (timpani), before delving into greater complexity. It is an education to feel the "just" relationships in rhythm. Start the CD right after the opening Earth fragment.

all best, Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <clumma@...>
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:21:06 -0000
Subject: [metatuning] Re: rhythm hemiolas

I mean, right-left and left-right. I haven't practiced one-handed
polyrhythms as much, but I probably should.

-Carl

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗pgreenhaw@...

Schillinger has a book entitled Encyclopedia of Rhythms that is rather
useful in realizing polyrhythms. His method is quite simple -- he finds
the least common denominators of both elements -- an example: 7:5......
construct a phrase in the meter of, let's say, 35/16 -- give the right
hand the "7s" (which will articulate a beat every 5 sixteenth-notes) and
the left hand the "5s" (which articulate every 7 sixteenth-notes) -- once
you've notated it as such, it is easy see the composite rhythm.....

Schillinger uses this technique to realize all sorts of different
combinations

___________________________________________
Paul Greenhaw
Music Specialist II
The New York Public Library for the Performing Arts
40 Lincoln Center Plaza
New York, NY 10023
(212) 870-1892
__________________________________________

"Carl Lumma" <clumma@...>
Sent by: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
04/21/2006 02:21 AM
Please respond to
metatuning@yahoogroups.com

To
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Subject
[metatuning] Re: rhythm hemiolas

I mean, right-left and left-right. I haven't practiced one-handed
polyrhythms as much, but I probably should.

-Carl

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🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> > I did that, and it isn't even close to working. There's too
> > much emphasis on damned and the 2nd syllable of butter. I mean,
> > I could come up with a lot of rhythms that sound like "pass the
> > god-damned butter" as good as this one. It's a terrible
> > instructional tool in my opinion.
>
> We're all wired differently. I've used it with percussion students
> for years and years, and it works like a charm. And it is a good
> entry into the world of 2, 3, and 4-way independence.

Q: Do you *play* the polyrhythm in question for your student,
or at least say the phrase with the correct 'lilt'? Or do you
think just seeing it on a webpage would give our friend Stephen
what he needs to play the rhythm?

-C.

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> Cycle one of Universe pitch, all within a 16 second unit,
> polyrhythms of 1 (low bell) against 2 (bass drum) against
> 3 (low gong) against 4 (second bass drum) against 5 (timpani),
> before delving into greater complexity. It is an education
> to feel the "just" relationships in rhythm. Start the CD
> right after the opening Earth fragment.

That does sound cool. I'll pop it in.

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Q: Do you *play* the polyrhythm in question for your student,
> or at least say the phrase with the correct 'lilt'?

Yes, and yes. It is as Dante said: these are mnemonic devices to give
and extraordinarily fast way of remembering how a rhythm flows
correctly. Always frustrating when a student leaves the lesson and
comes back the next week, somehow mis-remembering how something was
supposed to go, and practicing/playing it wrong all week. With these
devices it never happens.

> Or do you
> think just seeing it on a webpage would give our friend Stephen
> what he needs to play the rhythm?

Nope, I think it has to be heard in context. Otherwise you line up
with the old joke about counting 7/8 meter
"one-two-three-four-five-six-se-ven" and having come out square 4/4. I
didn't happen to propose using these on the list, merely commenting
for some corrections. I say this also since Stephen doesn't have a
very deep background in reading/rhythm; sometimes when someone has
basic pulse and metrical division experience, you *can* explain things
in print and expect a fair degree of comprehension. But rhythm, like
pitch, is difficult to deal with in just _describing_ it. Don't you think?

I may have missed it: did you have a link for the rhythm cards you
mentioned?

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> It's in this message
> /metatuning/topicId_10717.html#10723

Thanks for the link, sorry I didn't snag it the first time. As we're
on the topic of riddim, Steve Schick (world-class percussionist and
local colleague of mine) has a great new book coming out:

http://tinyurl.com/nmuvo

Steve is really one of the most amazing musicians and minds I've been
lucky to meet and work with. To get a taste of his thinking, there is
a transcripted video interview with Frank Oteri on NewMusicBox:

http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=2437

If you want to skip the vids, here's a link to the text:

http://www.newmusicbox.org/60/interview_schick.pdf

I only wish I could have prepared thoughts as cogent and fluid as
Steve can get on-the-fly! :)

Thanks for the link again, looks like some other cool stuff on that site.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Chris, Stephen, and Jon,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Bailey <chris@...> wrote:
>
>
> There are also lots of phrases for hemiolas. for
> 3-in-the-space-of-2, there's good old "Pass the butter",
> or "one cigarette".

Yes! These describe exactly the two different ways of
counting a hemiola rhythm which i wrote about:

> [me, monz]
> You can then combine both rhythms into one in either of
> two different ways, using either method of counting:

"one cigarette":

> basing count on G-clef:
>
> | | | |
> count 1 2 & 3

"pass the butter":

> basing count on F-clef:
>
> 1 a 2 &
> | | | |

-monz

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, pgreenhaw@... wrote:
>
> Schillinger has a book entitled Encyclopedia of Rhythms
> that is rather useful in realizing polyrhythms. His method
> is quite simple -- he finds the least common denominators
> of both elements -- an example: 7:5...... construct a phrase
> in the meter of, let's say, 35/16 -- give the right hand
> the "7s" (which will articulate a beat every 5 sixteenth-notes)
> and the left hand the "5s" (which articulate every 7
> sixteenth-notes) -- once you've notated it as such, it is
> easy see the composite rhythm.....
>
> Schillinger uses this technique to realize all sorts of
> different combinations

This technique, in fact, is exactly the basis of the music
composed by Bill Wesley. I'm certain that he knows nothing
of Schillinger, and developed it independently.

Bill even has a nice notational system for it, which puts
time on the vertical axis. We will eventually include his
notation as one of those available in Tonescape.

-monz

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> >
> > Or do you think just seeing it on a webpage would give
> > our friend Stephen what he needs to play the rhythm?
>
> Nope, I think it has to be heard in context. Otherwise you
> line up with the old joke about counting 7/8 meter
> "one-two-three-four-five-six-se-ven" and having come out
> square 4/4.

Hmm ... that just made me realize for the first time that,
in English, all of the numbers from 1 to 10 except 7 have
only one syllable. I wonder why 7 has two? And i wonder if
it has something to do with the fact that it was such an
important number in antiquity.

-monz

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Jon,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> > It's in this message
> > /metatuning/topicId_10717.html#10723
>
> Thanks for the link, sorry I didn't snag it the first time. As
> we're on the topic of riddim, Steve Schick (world-class
> percussionist and local colleague of mine) has a great new
> book coming out:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nmuvo
>
> Steve is really one of the most amazing musicians and minds
> I've been lucky to meet and work with.

I've never had the good fortune to work with Steve, but i've
seen him perform and i can certainly agree that he is amazing!
His arrangement of Varese's _Ionisation_ for a smaller group
(was it 6 percussionists?) was really something to see.

-monz

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

>
>
> Hmm ... that just made me realize for the first time that,
> in English, all of the numbers from 1 to 10 except 7 have
> only one syllable. I wonder why 7 has two? And i wonder if
> it has something to do with the fact that it was such an
> important number in antiquity.
>
>
> -monz
>
++++++ When I do my ear training I assign each note a number
from 1 to 12. (I make up stuff as I go along. I'm sure
there is a generally accepted way to do the things I
try to do.) C note is 'one' , and so on.

seven sounds like se (short 'e' sound)
and eleven sounds like la (short 'a' sound)
and twevle sounds like twa (short 'a' sound)

So if I used this is counting I could still
have a single syllable. Though I just realized this
now.

God rested on the 7th day. At least in English
it has two syllables. Some things are lost in translation.
I'll bet that many of the Psalms are rhyming songs. But
that can't ryhme in English.

-Stephen

🔗kylegann1955 <kgann@...>

I've used "pass the god-damned butter" for 4:3 for decades. For 5:4 I always used:

SHE'S PREGnant, DON'T know WHAT to DO

but in England I learned an alternate version:

DON'T FUCKing TOUCH my PINT aGAIN.

I just wrote a four-hand piano piece based on 5:4 titled "Don't Touch My Pint."

Cheers,

Kyle

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@...> wrote:
>
> well, tap 4:3 with two hands, and then chant the phrase along with it:
> you'll see.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
> >Behalf Of Carl Lumma
> >Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 3:35 PM
> >To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [metatuning] Re: rhythm hemiolas
> >
> >
> >> I believe its "pass the god-damned butter" and it gives 4:3
> >
> >How the hell does that give 4:3?
> >
> >-Carl
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> >To post to the list, send to
> >metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> +++++ Jon (or anyone)

Even if I understood how to do this specfic thing (by counting
or however):

4/4 time

2 quarter notes in the F clef,
3 quarter notes in G clef as a triplet

What do I do for the rest of the measure? What happens if
I have a eighth with a dot then a sixteenth?

If I counted for the first problem I could not use the
same count for the second, correct? (Unless I counted to
12 and then to 24, and finally to 36 for the eighth-dot-
sixteenth part. 12 counts per quarter note seems to be
able to deal with anything I see lately.)

Apparently no ones likes my idea of using software to record
what one plays *extremely* slowly, and playing it back at a
normal speed over and over(until one gets it into one's head).

I'm mildly curious about this so don't put excessive amounts
of time into any replies for now. Thanks.

If this has already been answered I must have missed it.
Reviewing previous posts today if I can.

-Stephen

🔗threesixesinarow <music.conx@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > There are also lots of phrases for hemiolas. for
> > 3-in-the-space-of-2, there's good old "Pass the butter",
> > or "one cigarette".
>
> Phrases never helped me growing up --

Where I used to live and walked around a lot it was easy working out
different combinations against my footsteps. Someone told me this was
kind of like eurythmics, and also thread cutting takes a similar
feeling and concentration.

Clark

> my trumpet teacher
> would always use them. Pass the butter doesn't even sound
> like 3:2 to me now. One cigarette kinda does.
>
> -Carl
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "threesixesinarow"
<music.conx@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> >
> > > There are also lots of phrases for hemiolas. for
> > > 3-in-the-space-of-2, there's good old "Pass the butter",
> > > or "one cigarette".
> >
> > Phrases never helped me growing up --
>
> Where I used to live and walked around a lot it was easy working
out
> different combinations against my footsteps. Someone told me this
was
> kind of like eurythmics,

This is the only eurythmics I know :)

http://www.eurythmics.com/graphics/downloads/desktops/e_life800x600.j
pg

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas--
Everybody's looking for something.

> >
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Must be this though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurhythmics

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Kyle,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@...> wrote:
>
> I've used "pass the god-damned butter" for 4:3 for decades.
> For 5:4 I always used:
>
> SHE'S PREGnant, DON'T know WHAT to DO
>
> but in England I learned an alternate version:
>
> DON'T FUCKing TOUCH my PINT aGAIN.
>
> I just wrote a four-hand piano piece based on 5:4 titled
> "Don't Touch My Pint."

Wow, i never knew figuring out these complicated rhythms
could be so much fun! I've always just used the method of
finding the "lowest-common-denominator" pulse and counting
it out.

BTW -- i also gave a presentation at the Ben Johnston
Symposium in Claremont last week, and got to hear your
wonderful presentation-by-phone. Too bad you missed mine
-- you would have liked it: excerpts from Ben's 4th, 5th,
and 8th Quartets, in Tonescape, with the lattices on the
overhead projector.

-monz

🔗kylegann1955 <kgann@...>

Hi Monz,

I am very sorry I missed the whole thing, and especially your presentation. (Damn! I've
never heard that 8th Quartet!) It turned out my father died, not unexpectedly, a few days
before the symposium, and I just wasn't fated to be there. I'm happy if the phone
presentation sounded OK - I was pretty worried about it coming out all right, under the
circumstances.

Kyle

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:

> Wow, i never knew figuring out these complicated rhythms
> could be so much fun! I've always just used the method of
> finding the "lowest-common-denominator" pulse and counting
> it out.
>
> BTW -- i also gave a presentation at the Ben Johnston
> Symposium in Claremont last week, and got to hear your
> wonderful presentation-by-phone. Too bad you missed mine
> -- you would have liked it: excerpts from Ben's 4th, 5th,
> and 8th Quartets, in Tonescape, with the lattices on the
> overhead projector.
>
>
>
> -monz
>

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Monz,
>
> I am very sorry I missed the whole thing, and especially
> your presentation. (Damn! I've never heard that 8th Quartet!)
> It turned out my father died, not unexpectedly, a few days
> before the symposium, and I just wasn't fated to be there.
> I'm happy if the phone presentation sounded OK - I was
> pretty worried about it coming out all right, under the
> circumstances.
>
> Kyle

My condolences to you and your family.

Gene Ward Smith made some ogg files of my Tonescape realization
of the 8th Quartet excerpt -- i posted my favorite one here:

/metatuning/files/monz/johnston_fluid.ogg

This is the entire first section from the 2nd movement.
It's otonal ... the middle section is utonal, then there's
a varied recap of this one.

Since this post does in fact concern tuning, i'm posting
a copy of it to the main tuning list -- any responses should
be sent there.

-monz

rhythm hemiolas

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