microtonal notation software - recommendations wanted

What do people recommend for notation software? Here are my requirements:

- capable of making user-defined tabulature (which I want to use for pieces performed using a MIDI controller)
- capable of handling various microtonal notation schemes (since I don't know yet which one(s) I'll use)
- runs on Windows XP (I have both Cygwin and Mingw, so I can still use a halfway sane environment)
- free (preferably) or cheap
- a decent UI is a plus, but editing text is fine too

Will lilypond do the trick? Do I have to bite the bullet and consider Finale (not my first choice due to expense and one of the worst UI designs I've ever seen)?

I already have and love Noteworthy (which is great for writing in 12-note schemes and generating MIDI files that I can then retune with Scala) but it doesn't do tab or non-standard accidentals.

Thanks all.

- Dave

Hi Dave,

Well you could use the approach I use for my pieces here.

http://tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/tunes.htm

The idea is that you use NWC to write a playing score
for a retuned keyboard - the keyboard can be tuned to any tuning
you like not necessarily 12-t.

A keyboard player uusing a suutably retuned keyboard just
reads it like a 12-t score using their familiar
hand / eye coordination - but because the
keyboard is retuned, then they play microtonal
pitches. I call it a scordatura keyboard.

Then if you play the score through a suitably
retuned synth or keyboard, or relay the notes through
e.g. my Fractal Tune Smithy to your soundcard or synth,
you can hear your composition when you click the
play button in the microtonal tuning just as you
normally do in 12-t.

It is no good for singers or other instrumentalists
to read. So a proper microtonal notation software
should let one make both- a scordatura score for
keyboard players, and microtonal scores with
accidentals for other instrumentalists who need
the accidentals in order to pitch the notes.

But the score with accidentals will just
be a nuisance probably for the keyboard player
as they will need to learn new fingerings
all over again - and need to learn different
fingerings depending on how their keyboard is
retuned - while the scordatura score
requires no new learning at all - any keyboard
player can pick up a scordatura score and
play it right away on a suitably retuned
keyboard.

Ideally one would only need to write the one
score and at a press of a button convert it into
a scordatura one or an instrumentalists one.
But at present there isnt' any such software
available that I know of. Maybe one just
needs to write both types of score.

Anyway if you want to be able to get the notes onto
paper quickly and easily, this scordatura
score method is one easy method to use,
and it also means the composer can easily
and quickly play their own piece on
keyboard to try it out and can render
it easily to midi with all the resources
of the notation software as far as inserting
dynamics, repeats etc.

Robert

Thanks, Robert, these are good points. I'm actually already using NWC to make MIDI files from notation, which I then retune using Scala. But I haven't been concerned yet with producing a score. Of course, you approach will work, so long as the instrument accommodates tuning.

But these concerns can wait. What I'd like to do in the short term is to create tabulature scores for the real-time Csound pieces I'm working on (with Art Hunkins), in which the user plays a set of knobs or sliders on a MIDI controller. Since all I want or need to indicate is a series of events (e.g., controller number, controller position, start time, and duration), tabulature seems ideal. It looks as if lilypond has that capability, so I'm going to look into that.

- Dave

>Hi Dave,
>
>Well you could use the approach I use for my pieces here.
>
>http://tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/tunes.htm
>
>The idea is that you use NWC to write a playing score
>for a retuned keyboard - the keyboard can be tuned to any tuning
>you like not necessarily 12-t. >
>A keyboard player uusing a suutably retuned keyboard just
>reads it like a 12-t score using their familiar
>hand / eye coordination - but because the
>keyboard is retuned, then they play microtonal
>pitches. I call it a scordatura keyboard.
>
>Then if you play the score through a suitably
>retuned synth or keyboard, or relay the notes through
>e.g. my Fractal Tune Smithy to your soundcard or synth,
>you can hear your composition when you click the
>play button in the microtonal tuning just as you
>normally do in 12-t.
>
>It is no good for singers or other instrumentalists
>to read. So a proper microtonal notation software
>should let one make both- a scordatura score for
>keyboard players, and microtonal scores with
>accidentals for other instrumentalists who need
>the accidentals in order to pitch the notes.
>
>But the score with accidentals will just
>be a nuisance probably for the keyboard player
>as they will need to learn new fingerings
>all over again - and need to learn different
>fingerings depending on how their keyboard is
>retuned - while the scordatura score
>requires no new learning at all - any keyboard
>player can pick up a scordatura score and
>play it right away on a suitably retuned
>keyboard.
>
>Ideally one would only need to write the one
>score and at a press of a button convert it into
>a scordatura one or an instrumentalists one.
>But at present there isnt' any such software
>available that I know of. Maybe one just
>needs to write both types of score.
>
>Anyway if you want to be able to get the notes onto
>paper quickly and easily, this scordatura
>score method is one easy method to use,
>and it also means the composer can easily
>and quickly play their own piece on
>keyboard to try it out and can render
>it easily to midi with all the resources
>of the notation software as far as inserting
>dynamics, repeats etc.
>
>Robert
> >

Hi David,

Okay great, and glad you've found what you are looking for for the tablature scores.

Robert

I have test-driven a number of programs (Finale, Sibelius, Score, Music Studio, Mozart, Igor, Turandot, Lime, Lilypond) for microtone-specific features.

If you need a purely graphic score (no playback), Music Studio, Finale, Score, Sibelius, Turandot, and Lime are useful (roughly in that order). Lilypond is attractive, but, in my opinion, it is not yet ready for publication-quality microtonal work.

If you need microtonal playback directly from your score, Finale is the better choice at the moment (there being no "best" choice at the moment) and Lime is the only alternative. Finale offers microtonal midi playback via either individual pitchbends (which may or may not have graphics attached) or through the non-standard key signature facility with some external, full-keyboard tuning. The non-standard facility appears to be counter-intuitive for many users, but it's great for any notation scheme with regular interval spellings (i.e. each accidental has a fixed value in terms of scale steps). I rather like the user-defined tuning table in Lime, but it is limited to tunings with seven nominals (the "white keys") and four accidentals (i.e. a maximum of 35 pitches per score) and Lime is not yet -- in my opinion -- the full-feature program that Finale is, with some serious restrictions. But not everyone is a notation-wonk, examining their scores microscopically or demanding Henle-level editions. If you have been satisfied with Noteworthy's output, then I strongly recommend trying out Lime. You can try it out for free and the purchase price is modest.
(There are a lot of complaints about Finale's interface. I see the matter somewhat differently and find that Finale's variety of interfaces -- simple entry, speedy entry, midi file transfer, and command-line entry -- far outweighs the complaints about any single note-entry method, and no other program at the moment supports such a range of input methods. The menus are profligate, but that's just the price of having so many features. The one single feature of Finale, however, that I can't live without is the ability to shift between Page and Scroll views. The multiple page view used in Sibelius is -- to me -- a weak compromise, and, with my aesthetic, it is too inflexible to consider as a serious composing environment. My biggest complaint about Finale is that there are some third-party plug-ins, especially TGTools, that are almost essential and ought to be fully packaged with Finale, given the price.)

The developers of Turandot (who have just survived a major legal challenge by one of the bigger companies), promise an individual pitch-bend based microtonal playback. If this allows for defining pitch bends for the nominals as well, then this is especially promising, but if not, it will at least allow for all the multiples-of-twelve tunings. In any case, Turandot is reasonably priced and has an interesting interface.

If someone ever develops a Lime-like plug-in for either Finale or Sibelius with more than seven nominal and four accidentals, then we'll really have something useful.

Daniel Wolf

Dave Seidel wrote:

> What do people recommend for notation software? Here are my requirements:
>
> - capable of making user-defined tabulature (which I want to use for
> pieces performed using a MIDI controller)
> - capable of handling various microtonal notation schemes (since I don't
> know yet which one(s) I'll use)
> - runs on Windows XP (I have both Cygwin and Mingw, so I can still use a
> halfway sane environment)
> - free (preferably) or cheap
> - a decent UI is a plus, but editing text is fine too
>
> Will lilypond do the trick? Do I have to bite the bullet and consider
> Finale (not my first choice due to expense and one of the worst UI
> designs I've ever seen)?
>
> I already have and love Noteworthy (which is great for writing in
> 12-note schemes and generating MIDI files that I can then retune with
> Scala) but it doesn't do tab or non-standard accidentals.
>
> Thanks all.
>
> - Dave

Heya Daniel, thanks for the recap

>If you need microtonal playback directly from your score, Finale is the
>better choice at the moment (there being no "best" choice at the moment)
>and Lime is the only alternative.

Do you know the whereabouts of any LIME screenshots? I've tried to
install the thing several times over the years, and what I wind up
with does not match up with what people say it can do. I didn't even
know it could play back scores.

Also, I believe there are one or two ways to attach pitchbends to
notes in Sibelius. Maybe JP can fill us in on the latest there...

-Carl

Lime has a very different screen appearance from its print out -- perhaps that's your difficulty. Almost all of the programs w/playback will allow you to attach pitch bends, but only Lime comes with the tuning table and only Finale has the non-standard key signature. David Cottle, who was on the tuning list for a while and is a part of the Lime team, might be able to help you.

Sibelius probably gives the best out-of-the box print out and most users appear to be very happy with it. But it's just not tweakable enough in details for me, the input method is restrictive and it lacks a scroll view (I like to have the possibility of viewing the score as a continuous line rather than immediately and only in page-sized chuncks).

DJW

Carl Lumma wrote:

> Heya Daniel, thanks for the recap
>
> >If you need microtonal playback directly from your score, Finale is the
> >better choice at the moment (there being no "best" choice at the moment)
> >and Lime is the only alternative.
>
> Do you know the whereabouts of any LIME screenshots? I've tried to
> install the thing several times over the years, and what I wind up
> with does not match up with what people say it can do. I didn't even
> know it could play back scores.
>
> Also, I believe there are one or two ways to attach pitchbends to
> notes in Sibelius. Maybe JP can fill us in on the latest there...
>
> -Carl
>

>Lime has a very different screen appearance from its print out --
>perhaps that's your difficulty. Almost all of the programs w/playback
>will allow you to attach pitch bends, but only Lime comes with the
>tuning table and only Finale has the non-standard key signature. David
>Cottle, who was on the tuning list for a while and is a part of the Lime
>team, might be able to help you.
>
>Sibelius probably gives the best out-of-the box print out and most users
>appear to be very happy with it.

Not me; I hate it. It tries to do everything for you, and if you
don't like the way it does it, good luck trying to figure out how
to do it differently. The docs are miserable -- it once took me
hours to figure out how to insert a tempo.

>But it's just not tweakable enough in details for me,

Supposedly one can tweak it to kingdom come by creating a house
style, or whatever. Haven't tried it, myself.

>the input method is restrictive and it lacks a scroll
>view (I like to have the possibility of viewing the score as a
>continuous line rather than immediately and only in page-sized chuncks).

Yes, Encore does this and it's a nice feature (I suppose I'm
the only one on the planet still using Encore).

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Yes, Encore does this and it's a nice feature (I suppose I'm the only one >on the planet still using Encore).

No. It is the only Win 3.1 app I still have to keep running on my wife's computer. Periodically changes itself somehow and responds that it isn't properly installed. Maddening to keep babying it, but it is what she likes to use, and I don't see any reason to ask her to change... though I've tried! :)

Cheers,
Jon

>>Yes, Encore does this and it's a nice feature (I suppose I'm the only
>>one on the planet still using Encore).
>
>No. It is the only Win 3.1 app I still have to keep running on my wife's
>computer. Periodically changes itself somehow and responds that it isn't
>properly installed. Maddening to keep babying it, but it is what she likes
>to use, and I don't see any reason to ask her to change... though I've
>tried! :)

Are you aware that Gvox is keeping it quasi-current?

http://gvox.com/

-Carl

Speaking of archaic -- I have recently had quite a bit of fun running Clarence Barlow's Autobusk program, an Atari ST application, on WinXP via STEEM, an ST emulator. This also allows me to run Formula (the Anderson/Kuivila Forth Music Language) as well as a (rather elementary) notation program I wrote myself back in the late 80s. Unfortunately, the notation program I used most on the ST (Masterscore) requires a cartridge and poor PC just doesn't have a cartridge port...

In any case, Autobusk and STEEM are well worth trying out, and both are freeware
(at:
http://www.musikwissenschaft.uni-mainz.de/Autobusk/
and
http://steem.atari.st/ ). I had a brilliant couple of days visiting with Clarence last week in Bratislava; his music is great and his take on matters musical is _always_ interesting.

DJW

> >>Yes, Encore does this and it's a nice feature (I suppose I'm the only
> >>one on the planet still using Encore).
> >
> >No. It is the only Win 3.1 app I still have to keep running on my wife's
> >computer. Periodically changes itself somehow and responds that it isn't
> >properly installed. Maddening to keep babying it, but it is what she > likes
> >to use, and I don't see any reason to ask her to change... though I've
> >tried! :)
>

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Are you aware that Gvox is keeping it quasi-current?
>
>http://gvox.com/

Nope. You may have made me a happier spouse (certainly a much happier in-house default tech support husband...)

Thanks!
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_8125.html#8143

> Heya Daniel, thanks for the recap
>
> >If you need microtonal playback directly from your score, Finale
is the
> >better choice at the moment (there being no "best" choice at the
moment)
> >and Lime is the only alternative.
>
> Do you know the whereabouts of any LIME screenshots? I've tried to
> install the thing several times over the years, and what I wind up
> with does not match up with what people say it can do. I didn't
even
> know it could play back scores.
>
> Also, I believe there are one or two ways to attach pitchbends to
> notes in Sibelius. Maybe JP can fill us in on the latest there...
>
> -Carl

***Whoops... sorry, Carl, missed this on the "first time around..."

I did quite a bit of work both using and exploring Sibelius pitch
bends, but have decided to give up on them. They just are not
accurate enough for "serious" microtonality. They seem to vary a
lot... (although it's my impressions that pitch bends, *in general*
do this... and it's been confirmed by listening to several items
posted on these tuning lists over the years...)

I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning
table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll"
notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in
Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)

JP

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

>
>
> ***Whoops... sorry, Carl, missed this on the "first time around..."
>
> I did quite a bit of work both using and exploring Sibelius pitch
> bends, but have decided to give up on them. They just are not
> accurate enough for "serious" microtonality. They seem to vary a
> lot... (although it's my impressions that pitch bends, *in general*
> do this... and it's been confirmed by listening to several items
> posted on these tuning lists over the years...)
>
> I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning
> table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll"
> notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in
> Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
>
> JP

If I were in your position -- with my notation software only producing a useable graphic -- then I would probably switch to Graphire Music Studio. It is an all-graphic program, with a better interface for pure graphic work and much more flexibility (e.g. you can do Crumb-style circular scores and the like). But again, not everyone is an engraving wonk, and not everyone needs her/his editions to look like Henle.

Daniel Wolf

Greetings,

I checked for Graphire Music Press and the domain has expired. Does anyone
know if they are still operational?

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

Death is the last great defence of Life against tyrants. For eventually
all tyrants die. -- Gordon Rumson

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

>I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll" >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
>
That's exactly what I did for the last piece I scored. Also the first
"traditionally" notated work I've done in many years.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

This thread begs the question, who is the notation for? If its for a
real world performer, than by all means use a traditional tool like
Sibelius and well written instructions about how to recreate the
tuning. That's been my tactic on my series of 19ET pieces recently.
If its for tuning specialists or for publication in a theoretical
journal, etc. where clarity of note spelling is important than use a
specialized system, possibly one of the Finale addons?

jeff
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> >I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning
> >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll"
> >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in
> >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
> >
> That's exactly what I did for the last piece I scored. Also the first
> "traditionally" notated work I've done in many years.
>
>
> --
> * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com/db

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_8125.html#8172

wrote:
> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ***Whoops... sorry, Carl, missed this on the "first time
around..."
> >
> > I did quite a bit of work both using and exploring Sibelius pitch
> > bends, but have decided to give up on them. They just are not
> > accurate enough for "serious" microtonality. They seem to vary a
> > lot... (although it's my impressions that pitch bends, *in
general*
> > do this... and it's been confirmed by listening to several items
> > posted on these tuning lists over the years...)
> >
> > I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning
> > table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll"
> > notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in
> > Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
> >
> > JP
>
>
> If I were in your position -- with my notation software only
producing a
> useable graphic -- then I would probably switch to Graphire Music
> Studio. It is an all-graphic program, with a better interface for
pure
> graphic work and much more flexibility (e.g. you can do Crumb-style
> circular scores and the like). But again, not everyone is an
engraving
> wonk, and not everyone needs her/his editions to look like Henle.
>
> Daniel Wolf

***Thanks, Daniel, for the suggestion.... I always liked the Henle
editions although their company "logo" looks a bit suspiciously like
a ... what....! :)

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_8125.html#8176

Hi Jeff!

Right... makes sense to me. I'm more than happy with Sibelius,
especially now that it sounds so nice with the included softsynth.
That's the first time I used that "Native" instrument...

best,

Joe

P.S. Pianist *still* hasn't looked at your piece... travelling in
Europe, but I'll keep on it...

>
> This thread begs the question, who is the notation for? If its for
a
> real world performer, than by all means use a traditional tool like
> Sibelius and well written instructions about how to recreate the
> tuning. That's been my tactic on my series of 19ET pieces
recently.
> If its for tuning specialists or for publication in a theoretical
> journal, etc. where clarity of note spelling is important than use a
> specialized system, possibly one of the Finale addons?
>
> jeff
> http://jeffharrington.org - new music
> http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
> http://beepsnort.org - new music blog
>
>
> > Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> >
> > >I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use
tuning
> > >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano
roll"
> > >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation
in
> > >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
> > >
> > That's exactly what I did for the last piece I scored. Also the
first
> > "traditionally" notated work I've done in many years.
> >
> >
> > --
> > * David Beardsley
> > * microtonal guitar
> > * http://biink.com/db

As the originator of the thread, my interest in conventional notation with microtonal accidentals is mostly abstract for now. I'm working both on stuff written directly in Csound, some of it for live performance using knobs/sliders on a MIDI controller, and other stuff written using conventional notation with Noteworthy, saved as MIDI, and then retuned with Scala. My immediate notational interest is to develop a form of tabulature suitable for my pieces that use a MIDI controller, but since I was broaching the subject, I thought it would be good to hear people's thoughts on microtonal notation software in general. So far, I haven't found a good solution for making non-guitar-oriented tabulature, but I'm still looking. I thought Lilypond might be suitable, but after looking at the docs, I'm not so sure it would work unless I'm willing to hack Scheme -- not completely out of the question, but not very realistic either at this point in time.

- Dave

[blog] http://superluminal.com/dave/weblog
[music] http://mysterybear.net

>This thread begs the question, who is the notation for? If its for a
>real world performer, than by all means use a traditional tool like
>Sibelius and well written instructions about how to recreate the
>tuning. That's been my tactic on my series of 19ET pieces recently. >If its for tuning specialists or for publication in a theoretical
>journal, etc. where clarity of note spelling is important than use a
>specialized system, possibly one of the Finale addons? >
>jeff
> >

>I did quite a bit of work both using and exploring Sibelius pitch
>bends, but have decided to give up on them. They just are not
>accurate enough for "serious" microtonality. They seem to vary a
>lot... (although it's my impressions that pitch bends, *in general*
>do this... and it's been confirmed by listening to several items
>posted on these tuning lists over the years...)

There's more accuracy in pitch bend than most synths are capable
of producing. The problem lies elsewhere. Can you describe the
symptoms?

>I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning
>table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll"
>notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in
>Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)

Can you outline this process? You compose at the keyboard in
blackjack, capturing the MIDI to a sequencer... you then manipulate
it in the sequencer with the piano roll tools... then you export
the MIDI into Sibelius where it's turned into Wilson/Sims/Saggital
notation (which doesn't play back correctly)... is that right?

-Carl

Well, at this rate, the score to DeltaBandResonator should be
available. I'm on page 20 now of 34 pages. Should be done in 2
weeks. Maybe not fully proofed, but ready to be examined by a
potential performer. Something to think about. I think its a much
better piece than BlueStrider... I was trying to get another 19ET
piece done this weekend, but the scoring was going fast. These big
pieces are a major pain in the ass!

http://harrington.lunarpages.com/mp3/Jeff-Harrington-DeltaBandResonator_for_Piano.mp3

jeff
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
<jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...> wrote:
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_8125.html#8176
>
> Hi Jeff!
>
> Right... makes sense to me. I'm more than happy with Sibelius,
> especially now that it sounds so nice with the included softsynth.
> That's the first time I used that "Native" instrument...
>
> best,
>
> Joe
>
> P.S. Pianist *still* hasn't looked at your piece... travelling in
> Europe, but I'll keep on it...
>
>
> >
> > This thread begs the question, who is the notation for? If its for
> a
> > real world performer, than by all means use a traditional tool like
> > Sibelius and well written instructions about how to recreate the
> > tuning. That's been my tactic on my series of 19ET pieces
> recently.
> > If its for tuning specialists or for publication in a theoretical
> > journal, etc. where clarity of note spelling is important than use a
> > specialized system, possibly one of the Finale addons?
> >
> > jeff
> > http://jeffharrington.org - new music
> > http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
> > http://beepsnort.org - new music blog
> >
> >
> > > Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> > >
> > > >I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use
> tuning
> > > >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano
> roll"
> > > >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation
> in
> > > >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
> > > >
> > > That's exactly what I did for the last piece I scored. Also the
> first
> > > "traditionally" notated work I've done in many years.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > * David Beardsley
> > > * microtonal guitar
> > > * http://biink.com/db

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_8125.html#8181

> >I did quite a bit of work both using and exploring Sibelius pitch
> >bends, but have decided to give up on them. They just are not
> >accurate enough for "serious" microtonality. They seem to vary a
> >lot... (although it's my impressions that pitch bends, *in
general*
> >do this... and it's been confirmed by listening to several items
> >posted on these tuning lists over the years...)
>
> There's more accuracy in pitch bend than most synths are capable
> of producing. The problem lies elsewhere. Can you describe the
> symptoms?
>

***Hi Carl,

Well, the symptoms are that each time the notes are played they seem
to be bent slightly differently, unless it's my imagination. Also,
sometimes a pitch bend can throw off the entire tuning of Sibelius,
and one has to stop the playback and select a note further on to get
on track.

I'm sure this is mostly a problem endemic to Sibelius...

> >I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning
> >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll"
> >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in
> >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
>
> Can you outline this process? You compose at the keyboard in
> blackjack, capturing the MIDI to a sequencer...

***Yes

you then manipulate
> it in the sequencer with the piano roll tools...

***No, not really...

then you export
> the MIDI into Sibelius where it's turned into Wilson/Sims/Saggital
> notation (which doesn't play back correctly)... is that right?
>

***Heh... it's much more "manual" than that... I actually look at
each note on the piano roll and they correspond to keys on my
keyboard. I have little stickers on the keyboard which indicate
the "correct" accidental in Blackjack.

So, I write that note down on the music paper. It's not automated at
all, regrettably... :(

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...> wrote:

***Hi Jeff,

Well... maybe it's a better piece, but _Blue Strider_ is a known
Harrington "classic..."

Besides, Josh Pierce, the pianist, has the score to that, and I don't
want him to get confused... :)

Although, he hasn't looked at it, anyway... :)

Hoping it works out! (If not, we'll find somebody else, unless you
have a performer "at the ready...")

JP

>
> Well, at this rate, the score to DeltaBandResonator should be
> available. I'm on page 20 now of 34 pages. Should be done in 2
> weeks. Maybe not fully proofed, but ready to be examined by a
> potential performer. Something to think about. I think its a much
> better piece than BlueStrider... I was trying to get another 19ET
> piece done this weekend, but the scoring was going fast. These big
> pieces are a major pain in the ass!
>
> http://harrington.lunarpages.com/mp3/Jeff-Harrington-
DeltaBandResonator_for_Piano.mp3
>
> jeff
> http://jeffharrington.org - new music
> http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
> http://beepsnort.org - new music blog
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
> <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...>
wrote:
> >
> > /makemicromusic/topicId_8125.html#8176
> >
> > Hi Jeff!
> >
> > Right... makes sense to me. I'm more than happy with Sibelius,
> > especially now that it sounds so nice with the included
softsynth.
> > That's the first time I used that "Native" instrument...
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > P.S. Pianist *still* hasn't looked at your piece... travelling in
> > Europe, but I'll keep on it...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This thread begs the question, who is the notation for? If its
for
> > a
> > > real world performer, than by all means use a traditional tool
like
> > > Sibelius and well written instructions about how to recreate the
> > > tuning. That's been my tactic on my series of 19ET pieces
> > recently.
> > > If its for tuning specialists or for publication in a
theoretical
> > > journal, etc. where clarity of note spelling is important than
use a
> > > specialized system, possibly one of the Finale addons?
> > >
> > > jeff
> > > http://jeffharrington.org - new music
> > > http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
> > > http://beepsnort.org - new music blog
> > >
> > >
> > > > Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use
> > tuning
> > > > >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano
> > roll"
> > > > >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal
notation
> > in
> > > > >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
> > > > >
> > > > That's exactly what I did for the last piece I scored. Also
the
> > first
> > > > "traditionally" notated work I've done in many years.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > * David Beardsley
> > > > * microtonal guitar
> > > > * http://biink.com/db

>> >I did quite a bit of work both using and exploring Sibelius pitch
>> >bends, but have decided to give up on them. They just are not
>> >accurate enough for "serious" microtonality. They seem to vary a
>> >lot... (although it's my impressions that pitch bends, *in
>> >general* do this... and it's been confirmed by listening to
>> >several items posted on these tuning lists over the years...)
>>
>> There's more accuracy in pitch bend than most synths are capable
>> of producing. The problem lies elsewhere. Can you describe the
>> symptoms?
>
>***Hi Carl,
>
>Well, the symptoms are that each time the notes are played they seem
>to be bent slightly differently, unless it's my imagination. Also,
>sometimes a pitch bend can throw off the entire tuning of Sibelius,
>and one has to stop the playback and select a note further on to get
>on track.
>
>I'm sure this is mostly a problem endemic to Sibelius...

Sounds like it.

What method are you using to enter the pitch bends?

And what ever became of Peter Walton's plugin?

>> >I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use tuning
>> >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano roll"
>> >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation in
>> >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
>>
>> Can you outline this process? You compose at the keyboard in
>> blackjack, capturing the MIDI to a sequencer...
>
>***Yes
>
>> you then manipulate
>> it in the sequencer with the piano roll tools...
>
>***No, not really...

You mean you're able to enter it in its final form from the keyboard?

>> then you export
>> the MIDI into Sibelius where it's turned into Wilson/Sims/Saggital
>> notation (which doesn't play back correctly)... is that right?
>
>***Heh... it's much more "manual" than that... I actually look at
>each note on the piano roll and they correspond to keys on my
>keyboard. I have little stickers on the keyboard which indicate
>the "correct" accidental in Blackjack.
>
>So, I write that note down on the music paper. It's not automated at
>all, regrettably... :(

Oh. :(

-Carl

Gordon Rumson wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I checked for Graphire Music Press and the domain has expired. Does > anyone
> know if they are still operational?
>

This is news to me. I have asked around a bit and no one seems to know what is going on at Graphire. If they've gone out of business, perhaps someone else can take over the product, which is a fine one.

Daniel Wolf

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_8125.html#8185

>> >I'm sure this is mostly a problem endemic to Sibelius...
>
> Sounds like it.
>
> What method are you using to enter the pitch bends?

***I was typing them in as text.
>
> And what ever became of Peter Walton's plugin?
>

***It exists, but it was never particularly useful for my purposes...

> >> >I use Sibelius now strictly as an *engraving* tool, and use
tuning
> >> >table synths for the microtonal composing. Then the "piano
roll"
> >> >notation gets "translated" into the correct microtonal notation
in
> >> >Sibelius (generally "Blackjack" of late...)
> >>
> >> Can you outline this process? You compose at the keyboard in
> >> blackjack, capturing the MIDI to a sequencer...
> >
> >***Yes
> >
> >> you then manipulate
> >> it in the sequencer with the piano roll tools...
> >
> >***No, not really...
>
> You mean you're able to enter it in its final form from the
keyboard?
>
> >> then you export
> >> the MIDI into Sibelius where it's turned into
Wilson/Sims/Saggital
> >> notation (which doesn't play back correctly)... is that right?
> >
> >***Heh... it's much more "manual" than that... I actually look at
> >each note on the piano roll and they correspond to keys on my
> >keyboard. I have little stickers on the keyboard which indicate
> >the "correct" accidental in Blackjack.
> >
> >So, I write that note down on the music paper. It's not automated
at
> >all, regrettably... :(
>
> Oh. :(
>

***I really had no problem working that way. It almost reminded me
of the old "real composing..." :)

JP

I haven't tried this product out yet, but it is very reasonably priced, does microtonal accidentals & playback, does xml, and has a vocal playback facility, the likes of which defeat my supply of adjectives:

http://myriad-online.com/en/products/harmony.htm

I'll give it an evaluation run soon and report back; it'd be useful if some others try it out, too.

Daniel Wolf

http://myriad-online.com/en/products/harmony.htm

I have explored Harmony Assistant a bit over the past three days; this is a fast review by the person quite possibly least qualified to write a review, so bear with me! This is a complete music production program based on notation, and comes at just the time when Finale and Sibelius, the big elephants in the engraving software world, are increasingly adding production devices to their packages so it is interesting to see and hear how a program apparently coming from the other perspective performs in comparison.

Although many of the individual components are familiar, it has a very different feel from any other music software I know. On the surface, this is because it is more oriented towards popular musics than the software I usually use, and has the native MusicXML and digital sound environment so directly available that the more familiar midi facilities rapidly slip into the background. But I think that the main difference is that the program really structures everything in a new, internally consistant way; it's like a music production suite written by Bourbaki... the ample help window messages even remind me of Bourbaki's warning hand signals!

I stopped programming back when Hector was a pup, but the program seems to invite 3rd party scripting, the developer's manual can be downloaded right away, and the scripting in Lua seems to lend the whole program much of its particular taste. The price of the package at 70 USD or EUR (save big, buy in dollars!) and the attitude of the developers places it on that narrow edge between shareware and bigbidnisware. There is an active polling site for user development requests and the programmers don't appear to have the peavish impatience that Finale and Sibelius staff famously share. If four or five members of the tuning community got active on the polling, perhaps we could have some additional microtuning bells and whistles very fast.

As an engraving tool, it has very nice out of the box output, but is not yet ready for prime time. It promises access to all of the font sets, but not -- to my great frustration -- allowing one to split up the notation characters aong several fonts. But, the action here for me would be to make my scores in Finale and then export the MusicXML to Harmony Assistant to get a more polished digital product or vice versa. The native microtonal facilities are two fold: one involves note-attached pitch bends directly to digital output, so no worries about midi channel limtations; the other involves the creation of "rules" -- in one case, you can assign specific microtunings to specific notes (the built-in scripts for Turkish and Quartertone accidental are neat), in another case, one can define tunings based on relationships to a fundamental. Included in the package are an example of the former with 19tet, and examples of the latter for barbershop quartet in 7-limit JI and other vocal ensembles in MT and 5-limit JI arrangements. It appears that one is limited to 21 tones (7 nominals +14 accidentals) for a given microtuning rule, but one is not limited to using a single rule within a composition. Again, my immediate frustration is not being able to break up the music font. The rules can include neat descriptive handles -- for example "fundamental" or "seventh partial" or the cent value or any other description.

At present, the program seems to stop at one cent tuning accuracy. I can't imagine that this needs to be the limit, so I have already voted for that improvement on the polling page.

I have the feeling that Harmony Assistant is a strong suggestion of what a complete music production system is going to look like in five- or six-years time. I just don't know if it is the real thing, with real development in front of it, or just a promising cul de sac.

I also got the Virtual Singer add-on. It's quite impressive, and with tweaking even more so, but I'm not yet sure form an aesthetic point of view what exactly I'm going to do with it -- mock-ups of choral music or maybe cartoon soundtracks...

Daniel Wolf

Thanks for the thorough review Daniel. I'm going to check it out
given your comments.

jeff
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://harrington.lunarpages.com/mp3 - free albums
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog