more on abstraction

I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of
only "ideas".

At some point, you have to decide, what instrument am I writing for?
And I mean "instrument" in the widest sense. . . (so it might be
defined as "any timbre/voice that can sustain, but has breathing
issues, can change dynamics gradually over time", etc.)

In any case, it's certainly possible to constrain one's self in
these terms, and then still be quite abstract in the musical
conception . .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...> wrote:
> I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of
> only "ideas".
>
> At some point, you have to decide, what instrument am I writing for?

Bach did not do this in the Art of the Fugue, so it is possible not
to. Explcitly allowing for the possibility of more than one kind of
emsemble is also possible and has been done.

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...> wrote:
> > I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of
> > only "ideas".
> >
> > At some point, you have to decide, what instrument am I writing for?
>
> Bach did not do this in the Art of the Fugue, so it is possible not
> to. Explcitly allowing for the possibility of more than one kind of
> emsemble is also possible and has been done.
>
Just to be picayune... I believe that there is a consensus among musicologists that _The Art of the Fugue_ was written for the organ, but that actually supports your point if in a more subtle way, in that the individual organist is responsible for the registration, and that registration will necessarily vary from instrument to instrument (along with absolute pitch height and temperament -- not unlike _Karawitan_). The more explicitly flexible consort instrumentations in early dance prints (Attaignant, Gervaise, Praetorius etc.) are perhaps even better examples. And then may I also add the extensive alternatives suggested by Ives in his music for theatre orchestra. It's a rich tradition, and I hope that it continues to thrive.

DJW

>>>I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music,
>>>of only "ideas".
>>>
>>>At some point, you have to decide, what instrument am I writing for?
>>
>>Bach did not do this in the Art of the Fugue, so it is possible not
>>to. Explcitly allowing for the possibility of more than one kind of
>>emsemble is also possible and has been done.
>
>Just to be picayune... I believe that there is a consensus among
>musicologists that _The Art of the Fugue_ was written for the organ,

And the Musical Offering? Clearly here the failure to specify
instrumentation was deliberate.

>but that actually supports your point if in a more subtle way, in
>that the individual organist is responsible for the registration,
>and that registration will necessarily vary from instrument to
>instrument ...

In Bach's day instrumentation was much more flexible than even this
suggests. Organ and harpsichord music freely intermixed, as did
harpsichord and lute music, as did instrumental music and keyboard
music. The Toccata and Fugue in Dmin originated as a string
piece, probably. Bach moved thematic material around his opus
rather freely. And in his late works I think we see an even more
substantial move toward abstract, 'pure music'.

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:

> >>>I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music,
> >>>of only "ideas".
> >>>
> >>>At some point, you have to decide, what instrument am I writing for?
> >>
> >>Bach did not do this in the Art of the Fugue, so it is possible not
> >>to. Explcitly allowing for the possibility of more than one kind of
> >>emsemble is also possible and has been done.
> >
> >Just to be picayune... I believe that there is a consensus among
> >musicologists that _The Art of the Fugue_ was written for the organ,
>
> And the Musical Offering? Clearly here the failure to specify
> instrumentation was deliberate.
>
In the musical offering, the unspecified works are for solo keyboard. There are some real problems in making these pieces fit string or wind ensembles. For strings, for example, the Art of the Fugue would require an instrument with a tenor-violin range, which is unlikely, and the chromatic possibilities of modern valved brass were hardly available to Bach. (As a sometime cornetto player, I like to read through these pieces, and wish that he had had the cornetto in mind, but the cornetto was already in retirement by the time Bach wrote the late speculative pieces, and Bach's explicit use of the cornetto was limited to some early cantata writing). > >but that actually supports your point if in a more subtle way, in
> >that the individual organist is responsible for the registration,
> >and that registration will necessarily vary from instrument to
> >instrument ...
>
> In Bach's day instrumentation was much more flexible than even this
> suggests. Organ and harpsichord music freely intermixed, as did
> harpsichord and lute music, as did instrumental music and keyboard
> music. The Toccata and Fugue in Dmin originated as a string
> piece, probably. Bach moved thematic material around his opus
> rather freely. And in his late works I think we see an even more
> substantial move toward abstract, 'pure music'.
>
> -Carl

I think that there was probably less intermixing than we are now used to. The presence of the harpsichord, even as continuo instrument, in the church has to carry a huge question mark, and the use of the organ for secular music-making is likewise circumscribed. The private and pedagogical function of the clavichord is yet another distinction. It is also useful to consider that although all three instruments share a common keyboard design, they each represent distinct lines of evolution and each have distinctive techniques that are neccesarily echoed in the repertoire. I'd bet that for any given work of Bach, it would be fairly easy to identify an instrument for which that work was most likely composed, or, that failing, an instrument for whcih that work was very unlikely to have been composed. Bach arrangements all require significant adjustments, of key, tessitura, contour, etc. and all show explicitly his mastery of idiomatic instrumental techniques. I've been playing the Brueggen transcriptions of the cello suites for recorder since '77 or so, and as much as I enjoy playing and listening to them, and admire Brueggen's restrained editing, I always have the nagging feeling that the pieces are not quite recorder pieces. The recorder has some great solo repertoire -- including Van Eyck and Telemann -- but the Bach cello suites, to my ears, are not yet among them...

DJW

My favorite recording hand down of the musical offering is an ensemble of predominantly strings.
karl muchinger ( sorry about spelling, but now erin is in love with this too, and she has the disk)

Daniel Wolf wrote:

>
>>
>> >>
>In the musical offering, the unspecified works are for solo keyboard. >There are some real problems in making these pieces fit string or wind >ensembles. >
> >
>
>
>
> >

I have a large number of occasional/experimental pieces in various tunings and temperaments that I would like to put on line. I am not interested in producing finished sound files of these, but, in the spirit of the open score much discussed today, would like to make them available in their "raw midi" format, allowing the individual user to tweak the performance as they see fit on their own axes. Most of these use mappings to a full keyboard tuning so are playable through either a synthesizer with a full keyboard tuning or a program like InTun or, I believe, MIDI Relay. Are such programs ubiquitous enough that midi files would find some listenership? Should I include the needed .scl and .tun files? Or is this such a terrible idea that I should drag it back into the cave in which I found it? And what about Naomi?

DJW

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...> wrote:

> I have a large number of occasional/experimental pieces in various
> tunings and temperaments that I would like to put on line. I am not
> interested in producing finished sound files of these, but, in the
> spirit of the open score much discussed today, would like to make them
> available in their "raw midi" format, allowing the individual user to
> tweak the performance as they see fit on their own axes. Most of these
> use mappings to a full keyboard tuning so are playable through
either a
> synthesizer with a full keyboard tuning or a program like InTun or, I
> believe, MIDI Relay. Are such programs ubiquitous enough that midi
> files would find some listenership? Should I include the needed .scl
> and .tun files? Or is this such a terrible idea that I should drag it
> back into the cave in which I found it? And what about Naomi?

I think it is a wonderful idea, but you will need to inlcude tun or
(preferably) scl files. Are all of your scales octave repeating?

"ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@...> wrote:

> I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of
> only "ideas".

How do you not?

well first we need to define what we mean by 'abstract' and 'ideas'

RTaylor wrote:

>"ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@...> wrote:
>
> >
>>I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of >>only "ideas".
>> >>
>
>How do you not?
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:

Abstract... abstracted {simplified, expressive, maybe distorted, etc} representation of reality, idea, concept... I like number six below but I think it's a bit too restrictive. ...Somehow changed to either make things more understandable {as in an abstract of a thesis}, clarified, more intense ...an attempt to get at the idea of or express an idea with a particular "thing" rather than a photographic representation.

From dictionary.com:

"""
ab·stract Audio pronunciation of "abstract" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-strkt, bstrkt)
adj.

1. Considered apart from concrete existence: an abstract concept.
2. Not applied or practical; theoretical. See Synonyms at theoretical.
3. Difficult to understand; abstruse: abstract philosophical problems.
4. Thought of or stated without reference to a specific instance: abstract words like truth and justice.
5. Impersonal, as in attitude or views.
6. Having an intellectual and affective artistic content that depends solely on intrinsic form rather than on narrative content or pictorial representation: abstract painting and sculpture.

"""

6 below's pretty good... :} I'd define it as an abstraction. A mental image or mental conception of a process, thing, emotion... :} I'm not too sure about the "reason" thing... With all apologies to Hegel... I really don't believe in absolutes... only relative degrees... amounts... shades, tones, etc.

Also dictionary.com:

"""
idea.
i·de·a Audio pronunciation of "idea" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-d)
n.

1. Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity.
2. An opinion, conviction, or principle: has some strange political ideas.
3. A plan, scheme, or method.
4. The gist of a specific situation; significance: The idea is to finish the project under budget.
5. A notion; a fancy.
6. Music. A theme or motif.
7. Philosophy.
1. In the philosophy of Plato, an archetype of which a corresponding being in phenomenal reality is an imperfect replica.
2. In the philosophy of Kant, a concept of reason that is transcendent but nonempirical.
3. In the philosophy of Hegel, absolute truth; the complete and ultimate product of reason.
8. Obsolete. A mental image of something remembered.

"""

> well first we need to define what we mean by 'abstract' and 'ideas'
>
> RTaylor wrote:
>
> >"ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@...> wrote:
> >
> >>I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of
> >>only "ideas".
> >
> >How do you not?

:)
Abstract can also refer to extracting significant detail to represent the whole, in example, a man holding an Ax over his head to represent the act of chopping. This is close to 6 but really in irreconcilable with at least 3.
if we use both definitions for abstract, one would have to concede that one could not write music that was not abstract as the term is maybe too inclusive.
If one threw dice to pick the next note, possibly this note is not an idea (but concede it probably becomes one in the listener, or course it could be redundant and adds nothing new to what we heard in which case it might 'not' be an idea :)

RTaylor wrote:

>Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
>Abstract... abstracted {simplified, expressive, maybe distorted, etc} representation of reality, idea, concept... I like number six below but I think it's a bit too restrictive. ...Somehow changed to either make things more understandable {as in an abstract of a thesis}, clarified, more intense ...an attempt to get at the idea of or express an idea with a particular "thing" rather than a photographic representation.
>
>>From dictionary.com:
>
>"""
>ab�stract Audio pronunciation of "abstract" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-strkt, bstrkt)
>adj.
>
> 1. Considered apart from concrete existence: an abstract concept.
> 2. Not applied or practical; theoretical. See Synonyms at theoretical.
> 3. Difficult to understand; abstruse: abstract philosophical problems.
> 4. Thought of or stated without reference to a specific instance: abstract words like truth and justice.
> 5. Impersonal, as in attitude or views.
> 6. Having an intellectual and affective artistic content that depends solely on intrinsic form rather than on narrative content or pictorial representation: abstract painting and sculpture.
>
>"""
>
>6 below's pretty good... :} I'd define it as an abstraction. A mental image or mental conception of a process, thing, emotion... :} I'm not too sure about the "reason" thing... With all apologies to Hegel... I really don't believe in absolutes... only relative degrees... amounts... shades, tones, etc.
>
>Also dictionary.com:
>
>"""
>idea.
>i�de�a Audio pronunciation of "idea" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-d)
>n.
>
> 1. Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity.
> 2. An opinion, conviction, or principle: has some strange political ideas.
> 3. A plan, scheme, or method.
> 4. The gist of a specific situation; significance: The idea is to finish the project under budget.
> 5. A notion; a fancy.
> 6. Music. A theme or motif.
> 7. Philosophy.
> 1. In the philosophy of Plato, an archetype of which a corresponding being in phenomenal reality is an imperfect replica.
> 2. In the philosophy of Kant, a concept of reason that is transcendent but nonempirical.
> 3. In the philosophy of Hegel, absolute truth; the complete and ultimate product of reason.
> 8. Obsolete. A mental image of something remembered.
>
>"""
>
> >
>>well first we need to define what we mean by 'abstract' and 'ideas'
>>
>>RTaylor wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>"ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>
>>>>I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of >>>>only "ideas".
>>>> >>>>
>>>How do you not?
>>> >>>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> :)
> Abstract can also refer to extracting significant detail to represent
> the whole, in example, a man holding an Ax over his head to represent
> the act of chopping. This is close to 6 but really in irreconcilable
> with at least 3.

Simplification...

> if we use both definitions for abstract, one would have to concede that
> one could not write music that was not abstract as the term is maybe too
> inclusive.

http://www.musespace.com/writings/essays/musique.html

That is what I was getting at... Soundscapes, samples, etc, etc... might qualify as realism. Personally, I'm seeing the sound of something as a sort of abstraction. I don't see it as the thing but rather one way of representing the thing. I suppose you could see it differently.

> If one threw dice to pick the next note, possibly this note is not an

Seeing as I'm a Surrealist... I've just got to disagree. "Randomness" can be one element of the process {See Dali and Ernst ...even Pollock} It's a way of allowing conditions, processes and the rest of the world to determine some element of the art. It strikes me as, somehow, more "real" besides... it's a lot more interesting {and honest} to set up experiments ...define conditions, etc and use the results as one means of getting at the core of something rather than just saying "this is how it is".

I'm not sure how valid that is when one is saying "this is how I feel" ...unless the statement is a representation of the artists reactions to the aforementioned "random processes".

At any rate... I think it has its place... especially with digital art. It definitely qualifies an an aspect of ideas. {:} I think.}

> idea (but concede it probably becomes one in the listener, or course it
> could be redundant and adds nothing new to what we heard in which case
> it might 'not' be an idea :)

Why does an idea have to be new?

> RTaylor wrote:
>
> >Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >
> >Abstract... abstracted {simplified, expressive, maybe distorted, etc} representation of reality, idea, concept... I like number six below but I think it's a bit too restrictive. ...Somehow changed to either make things more understandable {as in an abstract of a thesis}, clarified, more intense ...an attempt to get at the idea of or express an idea with a particular "thing" rather than a photographic representation.
> >
> >>From dictionary.com:
> >
> >"""
> >ab·stract Audio pronunciation of "abstract" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-strkt, bstrkt)
> >adj.
> >
> > 1. Considered apart from concrete existence: an abstract concept.
> > 2. Not applied or practical; theoretical. See Synonyms at theoretical.
> > 3. Difficult to understand; abstruse: abstract philosophical problems.
> > 4. Thought of or stated without reference to a specific instance: abstract words like truth and justice.
> > 5. Impersonal, as in attitude or views.
> > 6. Having an intellectual and affective artistic content that depends solely on intrinsic form rather than on narrative content or pictorial representation: abstract painting and sculpture.
> >
> >"""
> >
> >6 below's pretty good... :} I'd define it as an abstraction. A mental image or mental conception of a process, thing, emotion... :} I'm not too sure about the "reason" thing... With all apologies to Hegel... I really don't believe in absolutes... only relative degrees... amounts... shades, tones, etc.
> >
> >Also dictionary.com:
> >
> >"""
> >idea.
> >i·de·a Audio pronunciation of "idea" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-d)
> >n.
> >
> > 1. Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity.
> > 2. An opinion, conviction, or principle: has some strange political ideas.
> > 3. A plan, scheme, or method.
> > 4. The gist of a specific situation; significance: The idea is to finish the project under budget.
> > 5. A notion; a fancy.
> > 6. Music. A theme or motif.
> > 7. Philosophy.
> > 1. In the philosophy of Plato, an archetype of which a corresponding being in phenomenal reality is an imperfect replica.
> > 2. In the philosophy of Kant, a concept of reason that is transcendent but nonempirical.
> > 3. In the philosophy of Hegel, absolute truth; the complete and ultimate product of reason.
> > 8. Obsolete. A mental image of something remembered.
> >
> >"""
> >
> >>well first we need to define what we mean by 'abstract' and 'ideas'
> >>
> >>RTaylor wrote:
> >>
> >>>"ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music, of
> >>>>only "ideas".
> >>>>
> >>>How do you not?

Sorry about the spam thing... my provider filters out the the strangest things sometimes. I have the script set up to label stuff and forward it rather than delete it.

Why it's just now showing up labelled is something of a mystery.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_7656.html#7656

wrote:
> I don't see how one could really write a "purely abstract" music,
of
> only "ideas".
>
> At some point, you have to decide, what instrument am I writing
for?
> And I mean "instrument" in the widest sense. . . (so it might be
> defined as "any timbre/voice that can sustain, but has breathing
> issues, can change dynamics gradually over time", etc.)
>
> In any case, it's certainly possible to constrain one's self in
> these terms, and then still be quite abstract in the musical
> conception . .

***Our composers' group just got an interesting score from Marc
Antonio Consoli which I looked at last night. It's just for three
similar instruments... it could be *any* three. He has several
versions of this piece, transposed to different registers to
accomodate different instruments. I found this score interesting...

J. Pehrson

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_7656.html#7689

wrote:
> I have a large number of occasional/experimental pieces in various
> tunings and temperaments that I would like to put on line. I am
not
> interested in producing finished sound files of these, but, in the
> spirit of the open score much discussed today, would like to make
them
> available in their "raw midi" format, allowing the individual user
to
> tweak the performance as they see fit on their own axes. Most of
these
> use mappings to a full keyboard tuning so are playable through
either a
> synthesizer with a full keyboard tuning or a program like InTun or,
I
> believe, MIDI Relay. Are such programs ubiquitous enough that midi
> files would find some listenership? Should I include the
needed .scl
> and .tun files? Or is this such a terrible idea that I should drag
it
> back into the cave in which I found it? And what about Naomi?
>
> DJW

***I would prefer just listening to .mp3s of your music... :)

J. Pehrson