Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Ostinato on a difference set

Another entry on my page:

http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/gene.html

This should give it directly:

http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/gene/ostinato.ogg

This started out with my thinking about how to create maximally
incompetent counterpoint a la the discussion with Jeff Harrington, but
really ended up as a sort of mathematician's homage to "Sonnerie du
Ste Genevieve du Mont de Paris". It uses the 7-limit tonality diamond
and the mod 13 perfect difference set.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerfectDifferenceSet.html

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

Gene --

An elegant piece! By accident, my playback had added a concert hall-like resonance that lent a surprising sort of dramaturgy to thee "instrumental" entrances. May I suggest that you consider producing a score for live performance?

DJW

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> Another entry on my page:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/gene.html > <http://66.98.148.43/%7Exenharmo/gene.html>
>
> This should give it directly:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/gene/ostinato.ogg > <http://66.98.148.43/%7Exenharmo/ogg/gene/ostinato.ogg>
>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...> wrote:

> An elegant piece! By accident, my playback had added a concert
> hall-like resonance that lent a surprising sort of dramaturgy to thee
> "instrumental" entrances. May I suggest that you consider producing a
> score for live performance?

Thanks for your comments, Daniel. It would indeed be nifty to get a
live performance of something, but how and by whom is the question. We
have the JIN concert coming next year, but I presume performers must
use some system of notation other than giving the notes to the nearest
cent (which would be microtempering) or Sagittal, which is too new.
What is the West Coast standard at the moment?

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

I suggest a totally pragmatic approach -- (a) write a score with cent deviations from 12tet values and then indicate ratios at significant structural points, e.g. entrances of voices, sustained sonorities, etc. and (b) provide players with a rehearsal cd including both individual parts and the entire ensemble both at tempo and at a significantly slower speed. The cent notation is simply a point of orientation on the instruments, and the ratios are included in those points where the ensemble intonation really can be rehearsed through reduced beating etc.. As long as we're talking about a performance by live musicians without training in a new notation system who are playing existing instruments, I think the accuracy of the cent notation is more than sufficient for a performance score and the presence of the recording insures that this is by no means a betrayal of any JI ideal. DJW

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...> wrote:
>
> > An elegant piece! By accident, my playback had added a concert
> > hall-like resonance that lent a surprising sort of dramaturgy to thee
> > "instrumental" entrances. May I suggest that you consider producing a
> > score for live performance?
>
> Thanks for your comments, Daniel. It would indeed be nifty to get a
> live performance of something, but how and by whom is the question. We
> have the JIN concert coming next year, but I presume performers must
> use some system of notation other than giving the notes to the nearest
> cent (which would be microtempering) or Sagittal, which is too new.
> What is the West Coast standard at the moment?
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Prent Rodgers <prentrodgers@...>

Gene,
I think this Ostinato that this is a terrific piece, and you should see about getting someone to play it. I don't know any musicians who might, but your piece makes a compelling case for just intonation music as a unique contribution to the musical material of our time. This example really sings and it has the kind of power that you can only get from just. Could you play it on a keyboard live? That might be a compromise to a string & woodwind group, but it would be a start.

I don't know what you mean about difference sets, but many jazz players concentrate on the notes that were indicator notes that were not in common between the chords in a set of changes. Is this what you mean?

Prent

>>Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:59:12 -0000
>> From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@...>
>> Subject: Ostinato on a difference set
>>
>>Another entry on my page:
>>
>> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/gene.html
>>
>> This should give it directly:
>>
>>http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/gene/ostinato.ogg
--

Prent Rodgers
Mercer Island, WA

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> Thanks for your comments, Daniel. It would indeed be nifty
>> to get a live performance of something, but how and by whom
>> is the question.
>
>Gene, if you're thinking about a performance, may I suggest
>you consider the other pieces in your catalog before choosing
>this one?

I've revised my opinion. This piece is apparently pedantic
enough to be appealing to a broad variety of listeners, and
that same quality will no doubt make it easier to perform
than many of your others works.

-Carl

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@...>

On Sunday 19 September 2004 03:00 pm, Gene wrote:
> Another entry on my page:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/gene.html
>
> This should give it directly:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/gene/ostinato.ogg
>
> This started out with my thinking about how to create maximally
> incompetent counterpoint a la the discussion with Jeff Harrington, but
> really ended up as a sort of mathematician's homage to "Sonnerie du Ste
> Genevieve du Mont de Paris". It uses the 7-limit tonality diamond and
> the mod 13 perfect difference set.
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerfectDifferenceSet.html

Gene,

I really enjoyed this quite a lot. The 'ostinato' aspect of it--the
repetition--I think make for a very easy to digest experience.

I'd like to see more of this type of thing from you. I like this slant to your
work!

Best,
Aaron.
--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗idealordid <jeff@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> Thanks for your comments, Daniel. It would indeed be nifty
> >> to get a live performance of something, but how and by whom
> >> is the question.
> >
> >Gene, if you're thinking about a performance, may I suggest
> >you consider the other pieces in your catalog before choosing
> >this one?
>
> I've revised my opinion. This piece is apparently pedantic
> enough to be appealing to a broad variety of listeners, and
> that same quality will no doubt make it easier to perform
> than many of your others works.
>
>

I agree with Carl, it's a compelling use of ostinati and has many
wonderfully harmonious moments. Not sure about the form, it seems to
lose a little steam later on in the piece. But its good material and
I can imagine musicians being able to play this probably well with not
much rehersal.

One meta-comment about OGG files. Sorry... They are just a pain in
the ass to play. I was one of the early adopters of OGG (check their
site) but frankly, if I can't get a WinAmp plugin to work on my new
putah, and I have to search for 10 mins to find an OSX player (for
work listening - I gave up playing your OGG at home and waited until
yesterday) I just don't see what the point it.

Why deny yourself listens and hassle your audience for a patent
problem that is frankly moot. I just can't imagine any experimental
composer looking for ways to deny themselves listens. Comes with the
territory. Sorry to rant. Kudos on your canons! ;)

jeff harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

I appreciate your point of view, but there are plenty of us out here who happen who refuse to use proprietary software when an open source alternative is available. Using MP3s or Windoze media is a good way to guarantee that open source users won't bother to check out your music. (BY-the-way, if anyone notices the MP3 on my web page, I plead special circumstances. It's been up well since before OGG become viable and I am in a strange situation regarding my own music -- GEMA, my licensing organization, requirea that I pay royalties for my own music on my own web site, so I keep one old MP3 on the site that I've already paid for, and anything else I post to more private locations. Gawd do I despise sound recording!!).

Daniel Wolf

idealordid wrote:

>
> One meta-comment about OGG files. Sorry... They are just a pain in
> the ass to play. I was one of the early adopters of OGG (check their
> site) but frankly, if I can't get a WinAmp plugin to work on my new
> putah, and I have to search for 10 mins to find an OSX player (for
> work listening - I gave up playing your OGG at home and waited until
> yesterday) I just don't see what the point it. >
> Why deny yourself listens and hassle your audience for a patent
> problem that is frankly moot. I just can't imagine any experimental
> composer looking for ways to deny themselves listens. Comes with the
> territory. Sorry to rant. Kudos on your canons! ;)

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...> wrote:

WinAmp doesn't need a plugin; just download a recent version.

> Why deny yourself listens and hassle your audience for a patent
> problem that is frankly moot.

The patent problem is only part of it; ogg is more efficient.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗idealordid <jeff@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...> wrote:
>
> >
> > One meta-comment about OGG files. Sorry... They are just a pain in
> > the ass to play. I was one of the early adopters of OGG (check their
> > site) but frankly, if I can't get a WinAmp plugin to work on my new
> > putah, and I have to search for 10 mins to find an OSX player (for
> > work listening - I gave up playing your OGG at home and waited until
> > yesterday) I just don't see what the point it.
>
> WinAmp doesn't need a plugin; just download a recent version.
>

I have my reasons for sticking with 3, it works with my StreamZap
remote. ;-)

> > Why deny yourself listens and hassle your audience for a patent
> > problem that is frankly moot.
>
> The patent problem is only part of it; ogg is more efficient.

Big whatever to you and Daniel! Obviously your sharing agenda is
philosophical, which I find laughably naive when you're looking for
listens. You want to risk losing listeners that's your choice. I
jump through hoops to get more listens.

As for Daniel's comments about losing open-source fanatic listeners, I
can guarantee you that the 2000+ listens I get a month has more than a
few open-source advocates. And if someone is not going to download my
amazing music cuz it's not what they consider a 'cool' filetype -
hahaha... then screw 'em!

Music first. Funny, I've never seen the OGG support like here. Must
be something to do with the mentality of the endeavor. ;-)

jeff harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

🔗idealordid <jeff@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> I've revised my opinion. This piece is apparently pedantic
> >> enough to be appealing to a broad variety of listeners, and
> >> that same quality will no doubt make it easier to perform
> >> than many of your others works.
> >
> >I agree with Carl, it's a compelling use of ostinati and has many
> >wonderfully harmonious moments.
>
> Actually I was being sort-of facetious. I seem to be the only
> one around here who thinks this piece sort-of sucks rocks.
>

Heh... I would never say that about somebody's music... How
gentlemanly of you! It's not my favorite of his pieces...

jeff harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>I appreciate your point of view, but there are plenty of us out here
>who happen who refuse to use proprietary software when an open source
>alternative is available. Using MP3s or Windoze media is a good way
>to guarantee that open source users won't bother to check out your
>music.

The LAME mp3 encoder is open source. Its status vis-a-vis Fraunhofer's
patent has never been evaluated in court to my knowledge. It's also
far better-tested for transparency than any ogg encoder.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Robert Walker <robertwalker@...>

Hi Gene

I enjoyed this piece too.

I had to get the latest version of WinAmp as whatever I used before to play .ogg files seems to no longer play them or I
unassociated it or something. But as you say, once installed it was already set up to play .ogg files out of the box.

First time around I didn't notice that the ostinatu phrase was literally playing exactly the same phrase over and over all the way
through the first section, so that was nicely done, once there are several parts then it seems varied because of its changing roles
in the harmony.

I thought the middle section started well, a bit of magic there in fact when it enters in, but then - about when you have the
repeating single notes, it seems to falter. Probably just varying the dynamics for those notes, - and a bit of shaping with maybe
some gentle tempo and dynamic changes. Or indeed, I might have a go at some quite large dynamic changes too and see what happens,
e.g. a diminuendo right down to pp at the end of the slow section and a bit of an accelerandi at the same time, it might work. Then
when the listener thinks that may just be the end, bring in the last section with those denser chords ff to surprise them. You could
also have a gentle dynamic change before the slow section to prepare for it, go a bit quieter as if expecting something to happen,
or something. Or vary the dynamics of some of the instruments. and not the others, e.g. fade away the ostinatu phrase first or
whatever.

It might do no harm to add in an extra (possibly shortened e.g. only one repeat of the ostinatu phrase solo) exact recapitulation of
the introductory material at the end after the morphed dense chords version, then finally at the end, bring the phrase in again on
its own for two or three repeats, maybe just swell all the way from silence and fade away completely. Or you could make something of
one of the variations on it picked up by the other instruments, just add in one instrument with the most interesting variation just
to embelish it for a moment, but then make nothing of it, leave the ostinatu to continue on its own and fade away and leave the
listener wondering about where it might go next.

I'm just presenting these as ideas to think over, hoping they may be helpful to stimulate other ideas, not meaning to say you need
to do these exact changes of course! But it can be fun having written a piece to play about with the dynamics and tempi and see what
it does to it, can often make quite a big difference :-). Well surely you know that, anyway just by way of starting a discussion
rather than just say that I enjoyed it.

BTW what is maximally incompetent counterpoint?

Robert

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗danieljameswolf <djwolf1@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...> wrote:

> Music first. Funny, I've never seen the OGG support like here. Must
> be something to do with the mentality of the endeavor. ;-)
>

I believe that only Gene and I are pushing OGG here and it's unlikely
that you would have encountered pockets of OGG support much sooner,
the format only emerged late in 2002 and major support for it has only
come since then. But OGG does have a great _potential_ base, and that
is especially in any of the countries where Gnu/Linux is establishing
itself as a major commercial/school/governmental platform. Hungary for
example, where the off-the-shelf computer packages at the major
retailers all come with all non-commercial Linux packages instead of
Windoze.

But the main reason remains that OGG sounds very good at lower
bitrates. and I like the fact that several of the people most closely
involved with OGG have a strong computer music background.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "danieljameswolf"
<djwolf1@a...> wrote:

> But the main reason remains that OGG sounds very good at lower
> bitrates. and I like the fact that several of the people most closely
> involved with OGG have a strong computer music background.

I might not have gone with ogg had I realized how fanatical the
attachment to mp3 is. My brother was downright angry at me for using
ogg. I just don't get it--what is the big deal? if your software is
lame, fix it! It's very easily done.

🔗idealordid <jeff@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "danieljameswolf"
> <djwolf1@a...> wrote:
>
> > But the main reason remains that OGG sounds very good at lower
> > bitrates. and I like the fact that several of the people most closely
> > involved with OGG have a strong computer music background.
>
> I might not have gone with ogg had I realized how fanatical the
> attachment to mp3 is. My brother was downright angry at me for using
> ogg. I just don't get it--what is the big deal? if your software is
> lame, fix it! It's very easily done.

My point was that it wasn't very easily done. In fact it was an
impediment to my appreciation of your recent work and Daniel's
improvisations on SpecMusic. That's just a fact!

jeff harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"

/makemicromusic/topicId_7543.html#7543

<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> Another entry on my page:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/gene.html
>
> This should give it directly:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/gene/ostinato.ogg
>
> This started out with my thinking about how to create maximally
> incompetent counterpoint a la the discussion with Jeff Harrington,
but
> really ended up as a sort of mathematician's homage to "Sonnerie du
> Ste Genevieve du Mont de Paris". It uses the 7-limit tonality
diamond
> and the mod 13 perfect difference set.
>
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerfectDifferenceSet.html

***This is really very interesting, and the Gene Ward Smith "sound
sets" seem to be getting better and better...

J. Pehrson

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_7543.html#7546

wrote:
> I suggest a totally pragmatic approach -- (a) write a score with
cent
> deviations from 12tet values and then indicate ratios at
significant
> structural points, e.g. entrances of voices, sustained sonorities,
etc.
> and (b) provide players with a rehearsal cd including both
individual
> parts and the entire ensemble both at tempo and at a significantly
> slower speed. The cent notation is simply a point of orientation on
the
> instruments, and the ratios are included in those points where the
> ensemble intonation really can be rehearsed through reduced beating
> etc.. As long as we're talking about a performance by live
musicians
> without training in a new notation system who are playing existing
> instruments, I think the accuracy of the cent notation is more than
> sufficient for a performance score and the presence of the
recording
> insures that this is by no means a betrayal of any JI ideal.
>
> DJW
>

***This is practical advice by somebody who obviously has quite a bit
of experience in this matter... one can tell...

J. Pehrson

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid" <jeff@p...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_7543.html#7554

> I agree with Carl, it's a compelling use of ostinati and has many
> wonderfully harmonious moments. Not sure about the form, it seems
to
> lose a little steam later on in the piece.

***I agree here with Jeff...

> One meta-comment about OGG files. Sorry... They are just a pain in
> the ass to play.

***As a late entrant to this argument, I also agree with Jeff.. :)

J. Pehrson

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"

/makemicromusic/topicId_7543.html#7565

<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > The LAME mp3 encoder is open source. Its status vis-a-vis
Fraunhofer's
> > patent has never been evaluated in court to my knowledge. It's
also
> > far better-tested for transparency than any ogg encoder.
>
> The reason I chose ogg was simply that to get the degree of
fidelity I
> wanted, mp3 seemed to need larger files, and when uploading and
> downloading, this is bad.

***Why is it not possible to offer a listener *both* .ogg and .mp3 on
a site? I'm pro-choice...