Re: [MMM] Microtonal pedagogy

Hi Kyle --

Nice practical questions!

> I think the best thing is to let them get hands-on experience with a
> tunable synth,

These days most students have computers, and there are starting to be a
lot of tunable synths out there. One way they could do that would be just
by using their laptops and a synth program.

Peter Frazer's "Midicode" comes immediately to mind. It's an all-in-one
synth -- a pedagogical tool that runs anywhere. See http://www.midicode.com
It licenses for about $50 US, but also has a demo version you can try out.
It's a great tool. (I think Peter's on this list, too, so he might say
more about it.) If I was teaching a course in alternative tunings, that's
one tool I'd put on the list of "textbooks". Peter includes a nice
theoretical paper as well.

One freebie tunable synth springs to mind right off the bat: Tobybear's
"Helios" is a sampler synth VSTi that could easily be handled by students,
it has drag/drop tuning file support. You could set up tuning files and
timbres as .WAV files for students to use with it. Students would need a
VST host to run it in.

If you do anything with MP3 files... do you use some voice saying, "4/3"
followed by the interval and that sort of thing? Or just use the interval
sequences without vocalized notation?

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:
> Hi Kyle --
>
> These days most students have computers, and there are starting to
be a
> lot of tunable synths out there. One way they could do that would be
just
> by using their laptops and a synth program.
>
> Peter Frazer's "Midicode" comes immediately to mind. It's an
all-in-one
> synth -- a pedagogical tool that runs anywhere. See
http://www.midicode.com
> It licenses for about $50 US, but also has a demo version you can
try out.
> It's a great tool. (I think Peter's on this list, too, so he might say
> more about it.) If I was teaching a course in alternative tunings,
that's
> one tool I'd put on the list of "textbooks". Peter includes a nice
> theoretical paper as well.
>

Great idea - I was thinking too much "inside the box," and requiring
software as a textbook is an inspiration. But, when I click on
Midicode, just as I start to wet my pants with excitement, I get
stopped short by the message:

"Linux and Mac Versions
"Sorry, there are no versions for the Apple Mac or for Linux at this
time or in the immediate future."

Aaaarrrggghhhh! And most of my music students have Macs. I recommend
Scala all the time too, but I can't use it myself (no Mac version),
and only one of my students has benefitted from it.

One of my students, daughter of '80s art-rocker Margaret DeWys, had a
software program called Pitchfork, which allows you to tune intervals
by ratio or cents - very helpful, if severely limited.

Thanks,

Kyle

Oops, didn't answer all the questions:

> One freebie tunable synth springs to mind right off the bat:
Tobybear's
> "Helios" is a sampler synth VSTi that could easily be handled by
students,
> it has drag/drop tuning file support. You could set up tuning files
and
> timbres as .WAV files for students to use with it. Students would
need a
> VST host to run it in.

Geez, I was born in 1955, and am maybe too old or just too illiterate
to know what a VSTi or VST host is. Will my students know?

> If you do anything with MP3 files... do you use some voice saying,
"4/3"
> followed by the interval and that sort of thing? Or just use the
interval
> sequences without vocalized notation?

I decided the CD is irritating enough without my voice announcing the
intervals: they're all identified by track number on the CD cover.

Kyle

> Sorry, there are no versions for the Apple Mac
> Aaaarrrggghhhh! And most of my music students have Macs.

Oh, sorry about that. That's the bummer with using a minority platform,
unfortunately

But, take heart. There are some tunable Mac VSTi synths that are
tunable... I just don't know which they are offhand. It might also be
possible to run Virtual PC on the Mac and have these Windows things work?
Someone else might know the answer to that...

Might be worth also looking at http://www.kvr-vst.com and looking only for
Mac stuff. A lot of times, even crippled demo versions are better than
nothing for students to get a taste of something.

I guess if I were going to give out one piece of advice for music students
it would be to use the "majority" computing platform. It's a matter of
economics of scale, and most software never gets ported to a minority
platform. Fortunately with Mac OS X, things are getting a lot easier to
port around... If this were the best of all possible worlds, there would
only be one computing platform (public domain of course) so we wouldn't
have stupid walls like this cutting off chunks of the population from the
rest of the world.

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:

>
> I guess if I were going to give out one piece of advice for music
students
> it would be to use the "majority" computing platform.

Well geez, *that's* cutting a little close to the bone. Don't make me
ruin the congenial atmosphere of my new neighborhood bar by making me
*flame* someone!!! <:^D

Cheers,

Kyle
(just kidding, i.e.)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@e...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_6020.html#6021

> "Linux and Mac Versions
> "Sorry, there are no versions for the Apple Mac or for Linux at this
> time or in the immediate future."
>
> Aaaarrrggghhhh! And most of my music students have Macs. I recommend
> Scala all the time too, but I can't use it myself (no Mac version),
> and only one of my students has benefitted from it.
>
> One of my students, daughter of '80s art-rocker Margaret DeWys, had
a
> software program called Pitchfork, which allows you to tune
intervals
> by ratio or cents - very helpful, if severely limited.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle

***I believe that Jeff Scott's "Lil Miss Scale Oven" is primarily mac-
based:

http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@e...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_6020.html#6022

wrote:
> Oops, didn't answer all the questions:
>
> > One freebie tunable synth springs to mind right off the bat:
> Tobybear's
> > "Helios" is a sampler synth VSTi that could easily be handled by
> students,
> > it has drag/drop tuning file support. You could set up tuning
files
> and
> > timbres as .WAV files for students to use with it. Students would
> need a
> > VST host to run it in.
>
> Geez, I was born in 1955, and am maybe too old or just too
illiterate
> to know what a VSTi or VST host is. Will my students know?
>

***Well, since nobody who really *knows* about this stuff answered
this, *I* will attempt to answer it... :)

These are the Steinberg soft-synths (that's what the "ST" stands
for...) We're going to be seeing more and more of these and they are
going to continue to be microtunable, as I understand it.

They need, however, a "host" or some kind of sequencer to play them
from since they are essentially "plug ins..." So, something like
Sonar would do the trick...

Also, one needs a very fast computer to take advantage of these, and
my upgrade doesn't come until later this year...

J. Pehrson

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>***Well, since nobody who really *knows* about this stuff answered
>this, *I* will attempt to answer it... :)
>
>These are the Steinberg soft-synths (that's what the "ST" stands
>for...)

You are close: I believe it stands for "Virtual Studio Technology", esp. since they aren't just synths but audio effects, etc.

>They need, however, a "host" or some kind of sequencer to play them from >since they are essentially "plug ins..." So, something like Sonar would >do the trick...

Which is PC, and Kyle is on the Mac. If Kyle wants to pursue this further, we will suggest a VST host (probably Bidule <http://www.plogue.com/bidule/> for now).

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@e...>
wrote:
> Oops, didn't answer all the questions:
>
> > One freebie tunable synth springs to mind right off the bat:
> Tobybear's
> > "Helios" is a sampler synth VSTi that could easily be handled by
> students,

No, this won't do Kyle (a Mac user) any good. Tobybear's stuff only
runs on Windows.

> Geez, I was born in 1955, and am maybe too old or just too
illiterate
> to know what a VSTi or VST host is. Will my students know?

Don't know about your students but a VSTi is a plugin that happens to
be a software synth. A relatively recent development in computer
music technology is the concept of a "host" into which you can add
something called a "plugin". There are different kinds of plugins -
some are effects, some are synths, etc.

Why don't you share with us more info about what you have and/or hope
to use? Until we have a better idea of your setup, we're all just
taking shots in the dark in trying to help you. Sorry if you already
posted this info recently and I missed it...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@h...>
wrote:

> Why don't you share with us more info about what you have and/or hope
> to use? Until we have a better idea of your setup, we're all just
> taking shots in the dark in trying to help you. Sorry if you already
> posted this info recently and I missed it...

I appreciate the VST explanations. Personally, I use Digital
Performer, Sibelius 2, i-Tunes, and Toast on a Mac G4 with OS X.

But what I was really looking for was for something my students could
use, and they have all different kinds of setups, so it's difficult to
couch the original question in those terms. I would like to move in
the direction of a soft-synth myself, but I seem to be a few years
behind a lot of people on the list technologically - judging from how
easily the discussion gets over my head.

Thanks,

Kyle

On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 09:01:24PM -0000, kylegann1955 wrote:
> But what I was really looking for was for something my students could
> use, and they have all different kinds of setups,

it may fall into the too-technical category -- and i'm not sure offhand if
mac osx's java is what it was claimed it would be, but what about using
java to make audio, like with JSyn?
http://www.softsynth.com/jsyn/
there are other such things i think. i have not used them... but perhaps it
could be as easy to run as a web browser and maybe a java library download..

just a thought..
pfly

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@e...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@h...>
> wrote:
>
>
> > Why don't you share with us more info about what you have and/or hope
> > to use? Until we have a better idea of your setup, we're all just
> > taking shots in the dark in trying to help you. Sorry if you already
> > posted this info recently and I missed it...
>
> I appreciate the VST explanations. Personally, I use Digital
> Performer, Sibelius 2, i-Tunes, and Toast on a Mac G4 with OS X.
>
> But what I was really looking for was for something my students could
> use, and they have all different kinds of setups, so it's difficult to
> couch the original question in those terms. I would like to move in
> the direction of a soft-synth myself, but I seem to be a few years
> behind a lot of people on the list technologically - judging from how
> easily the discussion gets over my head.

Hmm... you're right, it's kinda tough asking on the behalf of a group
of people where everyone's setup is going to vary.

What do you plan to have your students do with software synths,
besides tune them to different scales? Are they going to use
sequencers or play them with MIDI keyboards?

Seems like the simplest solution is start with what I think Jon or
Rick recommended and that is to get Bidule here:

http://www.plogue.com/

As previously mentioned, you need a VST host application into which
you can "plug in" VST instruments. Bidule is currently a beta
product, and thus free.

Next, get CronoX, which is a low-cost VST synth that can load tuning
files - I don't know exactly what format, perhaps a CronoX user on
this Group can tell you. You can "plug" CronoX "into" Bidule.

That should be simple enough to get you started with microtunable Mac
OS X soft synths.

Paolo

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@h...>
wrote:

> What do you plan to have your students do with software synths,
> besides tune them to different scales? Are they going to use
> sequencers or play them with MIDI keyboards?
>
> Seems like the simplest solution is start with what I think Jon or
> Rick recommended and that is to get Bidule here:
>
> http://www.plogue.com/

Well, my original question asked advice about what to put on a compact
disc to help students learn to distinguish JI intervals, and it kind
of snowballed into questions involving entire MIDI studios and
software so advanced it's not compatible with *anything* yet. I
appreciate the expansion, because it gives me ideas toward which I
might be able to tend in the future - we're building a new computer
room for the music students, and I now have some slim premonition how
I might make sure microtonality will be involved. But the questions
are beginning to feel a little parallel to "Have you stopped beating
your wife?" (Keep in mind, I only last summer reached the point of
being able to burn my own CDs.)

I'll try Plogue, as I've been trying out every suggestion made, and I
gave all the appropriate URLs to my students - perhaps some of them
will succeed in using them where I've failed. It looks like I should
maybe work with our computer music guy, Bob Bielecki, to see that we
have some of these soft-synths and plug-ins in our new studio so we
can have a permanent JI/x-ET ear-training lab. Thanks for all the
software names and URLs, and I'll blast away at this VST stuff to see
if I can eventually make sense of it.

Cheers,

Kyle

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@e...> wrote:

> Well, my original question asked advice about what to put on a compact
> disc to help students learn to distinguish JI intervals, and it kind

Oh. My apologies for misunderstanding your original question. Good
luck finding the appropriate solution!

Paolo