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Dear Magnus,

Please let me congratulate you on your "Indian" piece, an excellent
example of how to create a longer piece of music with unity and
diversity! This is the kind of thing I'd like to do, and your
stylistic development shows one fine path for getting there.

Shall I call your piece a kind of multicultural 21st-century
counterpart to Ravel's _Bolero_?

Some of your music -- as with Shaahin's also, interestingly -- reminds
me of medieval European dance forms like the estampie, ductia, and
Italian istampita and saltarello. There's the thematic repetition with
new material interposed, the lively rhythm -- and also, in some of the
14th-century Italian pieces, for example, a longer scale of
development sort of bridging the space between dance and more
"abstract" music.

However, I'm not sure how to draw a line between these kinds of
13th-14th century European style and some of the melodies of Susato,
for example, in the 16th century -- which could indeed be the kind of
"Renaissance influences" you mention in the description for your
piece. I did note a moment, maybe around 16:19, that sounded
distinctly "Renaissance-like," possibly because of the vertical
texture or harmonic style as well as the melodic setting.

This leads me to note the harmonic as well as melodic variety of your
piece, with some moments emphasizing fifths and fourths, and others
which maybe suggested to me a kind of Baroque style (I noted such a
passage around 11:34).

Curiously, I didn't hear a specifically "Near Eastern" quality -- but
Shaahin is a lot better and more authoritative source in this
department than I am! Certainly I heard moments which could suggest
aspects of Near Eastern styles. For example, your use of fifths and
fourths around 5:40, close to a passage which Shaahin if I'm correct
found Persian in quality, might recall the embellishing use of
concords such as fifths or fourths described by certain Near Eastern
theorists around the 9th-11th centuries (Shaahin does this very nicely
in his music).

As to your use of 1/6-comma meantone, I would say first that given
your fine result, it's the correct temperament for what you were
doing. I wonder if maybe that "near-21/16" at around 482 cents (I
assume that this is 1/6-syntonic comma temperament) might not be ideal
because it's a bit less different from 4/3 than a just 21/16? In the
timbres you're using, at any rate, it seems to blend right in. This
maybe fits with Mark Lindley's philosophy that a good tuning should
not be specifically noticed except as the appropriate vehicle for the
music -- not necessarily always the rule, but an apt rule for many
pieces.

This is the fascinating thing: how you get the more "unusual"
intervals to fit right in with your style.

As to Gene Ward Smith's comments, I might suggest that they express
not disrespect, but rather a tendency often manifesting itself on MMM
for a piece to be taken by others more as an occasion for a general
discussion on tuning mathematics or aesthetics or whatever rather than
as the main topic of discussion in itself. No harm is meant, but a
good corrective is for all of us to remember that indeed, as your
comments remind us, a composer or improviser who shares music here
wouldn't mind some discussion regarding that piece itself, with tuning
as one of the facets.

By the way, one of the advantages of 1/6-comma for some of the piece
is that, if I'm not mistaken, you do use the regular meantone at
D-Eb. This is around 108 cents in 1/6-comma -- a bit more compact that
at 1/4-comma (117 cents) or thereabouts, maybe making your melodies
using this step a bit livelier. It certainly fits what I'd call the
"Baroque" moments of your piece, since 1/6-comma was evidently a very
popular style of temperament around 1700.

One thing I might add to emphasize that the stylistic integrity of
your piece is more than a matter of tuning. As it happens, I find
myself in another tuning system often using an interval around 484
cents as more or less equivalent to 21:16, and 983 cents as more or
less equivalent to 7:4 -- as compared to a rounded 482 and 984 cents
in 1/6-syntonic comma meantone. However, our musical results are
likely to be rather different -- because we are each approaching the
use of these similar interval sizes from our own musical perspectives.

If only I can approach the creativity and balance of your piece.

Peace and love, with many thanks,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

Thanks Margo for your long review! I apologize for my late reply. I wanted to listen to all the music you mentioned before I replied.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007, Margo Schulter wrote:
>
> Please let me congratulate you on your "Indian" piece, an excellent
> example of how to create a longer piece of music with unity and
> diversity! This is the kind of thing I'd like to do, and your
> stylistic development shows one fine path for getting there.

I'm happy you like it! This song was actually an excerpt from a much longer improvisation which was nowhere near as uniform. After recording it, I listened to the whole recording and selected this "Indian" segment since I thought it was the best.

I find I am much more creative when I improvise than when I sit down and try to write something consciously. Maybe I am more uninhibited during improvisation. It much easier for me to prolong and vary an idea. And
I am just as much audience as entertainer when I improvise...
The bad thing about improvisation is that I have to allow some mistakes in the final music.

> Shall I call your piece a kind of multicultural 21st-century
> counterpart to Ravel's _Bolero_?

Hehe.. I see the similarities. Although, when I listened to Bolero I found it very comical, like the composer was having fun with the audience :)

> Some of your music -- as with Shaahin's also, interestingly -- reminds
> me of medieval European dance forms like the estampie, ductia, and
> Italian istampita and saltarello. There's the thematic repetition with
> new material interposed, the lively rhythm -- and also, in some of the
> 14th-century Italian pieces, for example, a longer scale of
> development sort of bridging the space between dance and more
> "abstract" music.

I think these dance forms or derivatives are still very alive in Europe or at least Sweden (and maybe in the US too, you seem to have something similar in country or bluegrass but I can't comment intelligently on that). In special holidays and festivals you can often see people dancing in folk suites to live fiddle music, especially during the summer. It is very uplifting to hear and see so I think very highly of this music... Maybe Shaahin can tell us about Iran and what his influences are?

The rhythm and the sparing use of chords other than I and V is inspired by Indian classical music. The ornamentation of melodies too, but that is common in European folk music too (although not as intricate as Indian).

I hope to make a similar recording using a superpythagorean linear temperament instead of meantone, but I am very unfamiliar with music using this kind of tuning so my work there is a bit more dull. I've found a few tricks that work though...

> However, I'm not sure how to draw a line between these kinds of
> 13th-14th century European style and some of the melodies of Susato,
> for example, in the 16th century -- which could indeed be the kind of
> "Renaissance influences" you mention in the description for your
> piece. I did note a moment, maybe around 16:19, that sounded
> distinctly "Renaissance-like," possibly because of the vertical
> texture or harmonic style as well as the melodic setting.

Yes, exactly that 16:19 moment and another moment is what motivated me to mention renaissance inspiration.

> This leads me to note the harmonic as well as melodic variety of your
> piece, with some moments emphasizing fifths and fourths, and others
> which maybe suggested to me a kind of Baroque style (I noted such a
> passage around 11:34).

I'm impressed with how well you know different eras of western music... about everything after the renaissance is a blur to me :)

> Curiously, I didn't hear a specifically "Near Eastern" quality -- but
> Shaahin is a lot better and more authoritative source in this
> department than I am! Certainly I heard moments which could suggest
> aspects of Near Eastern styles. For example, your use of fifths and
> fourths around 5:40, close to a passage which Shaahin if I'm correct
> found Persian in quality, might recall the embellishing use of
> concords such as fifths or fourths described by certain Near Eastern
> theorists around the 9th-11th centuries (Shaahin does this very nicely
> in his music).

I didn't actually expect there to be any near eastern quality in the music -- to me indian classical music and mid-eastern music are very different.

> As to your use of 1/6-comma meantone, I would say first that given
> your fine result, it's the correct temperament for what you were
> doing. I wonder if maybe that "near-21/16" at around 482 cents (I
> assume that this is 1/6-syntonic comma temperament) might not be ideal
> because it's a bit less different from 4/3 than a just 21/16? In the
> timbres you're using, at any rate, it seems to blend right in. This

It is a very forgiving timbre :). It is built of 8 oscillators that are detuned and drifting slightly and independently, finally passing through three parallel bandpass filters to mimic something like a vocal tract.

> maybe fits with Mark Lindley's philosophy that a good tuning should
> not be specifically noticed except as the appropriate vehicle for the
> music -- not necessarily always the rule, but an apt rule for many
> pieces.

I think this is very true -- in real performance on pitch flexible instruments they don't really follow a specific temperament... and I think this sounds better than a static temperament.

> This is the fascinating thing: how you get the more "unusual"
> intervals to fit right in with your style.

That's the best compliment I could get... :) Still I chose among the easiest one to integrate -- 21:16 (and a touch of 7:4). I think the 21:16 IV is the easiest to integrate because it fits right in with classical chord patterns like I-V7-I. 7:4 is a bit harder because I7 chords are not very commonly used. And with 8/7 I'm really lost. I can't make good use of it. I generally think otonal intervals are easier to work with than utonal.

> As to Gene Ward Smith's comments, I might suggest that they express
> not disrespect, but rather a tendency often manifesting itself on MMM
> for a piece to be taken by others more as an occasion for a general
> discussion on tuning mathematics or aesthetics or whatever rather than
> as the main topic of discussion in itself. No harm is meant, but a
> good corrective is for all of us to remember that indeed, as your
> comments remind us, a composer or improviser who shares music here
> wouldn't mind some discussion regarding that piece itself, with tuning
> as one of the facets.

Yes I realize Gene wasn't meaning bad so I regret I wrote what I did.

> By the way, one of the advantages of 1/6-comma for some of the piece
> is that, if I'm not mistaken, you do use the regular meantone at
> D-Eb. This is around 108 cents in 1/6-comma -- a bit more compact that
> at 1/4-comma (117 cents) or thereabouts, maybe making your melodies
> using this step a bit livelier. It certainly fits what I'd call the
> "Baroque" moments of your piece, since 1/6-comma was evidently a very
> popular style of temperament around 1700.

Indeed, I find 1/4 comma has too wide semitones (they sound 11-limit to me) and the whole tones not wide and bold enough. Another problem I see with it is that some intervals are really hard locked-in JI intervals while others are soft and detuned -- it sounds uneven.

I usually prefer 1/5 or 1/6 comma meantone. But it is more complicated than this. I think the kind of meantone I use (2/7..1/6..1/11) has a big guiding effect on what kind of music I make.

> One thing I might add to emphasize that the stylistic integrity of
> your piece is more than a matter of tuning. As it happens, I find
> myself in another tuning system often using an interval around 484
> cents as more or less equivalent to 21:16, and 983 cents as more or
> less equivalent to 7:4 -- as compared to a rounded 482 and 984 cents
> in 1/6-syntonic comma meantone. However, our musical results are
> likely to be rather different -- because we are each approaching the
> use of these similar interval sizes from our own musical perspectives.

Yes... I don't recall having heard any meantone music from you? So we're in quite different territories.

> If only I can approach the creativity and balance of your piece.

Your superpythagorean challenge is much harder than my meantone challenge, imo. My best advice is, if you are into improvisation, record everything you do. Otherwise when/if you find yourself being 'in the zone' it's too late to start the recorder.

Thanks again for listening so carefully and writing what you hear and the optimistic review style. I think you are doing the microtonal community a fantastic favor.

/ Magnus

New Music

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@...>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

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