CronoX & VST host

Still trying to get this to work but no luck... I've downloaded 4 different VST hosts and
they don't seem to be able to load CronoX... or if they can, the demo versions are
blocking me from loading it.

A couple people out there mentioned using CronoX... what VST hosts are you using to
run it? Of couse, as Jon mentioned, in my case it has to work with Mac OS X... I
stymied again... -Justin

Hi Justin,

{you wrote...}
>Still trying to get this to work but no luck... I've downloaded 4 >different VST hosts and they don't seem to be able to load CronoX... or if >they can, the demo versions are blocking me from loading it.

Have you by any chance tried the application Bidule? I know that there are a lot of people, many in the electronica area, using that one for club things, concerts, raves, etc. It may be more complicated than what you need *just* to run a synth, but if it works you can just ignore the rest. I'm going to dl it and see what is up.

It may very well be that other people who are using one or more of these synths are using them within applications that they already have for midi/audio production: Sonar, Logic, Cubase, etc. These are commercial products that aren't cheap but are in wide use. (I am using Sonar.)

>A couple people out there mentioned using CronoX... what VST hosts are you >using to run it? Of couse, as Jon mentioned, in my case it has to work >with Mac OS X... I stymied again...

Do hang in there, I'm sure there is a way. If it is of any consolation, I started investigating this area almost a year ago, and I've actually ended up building a whole new computer just to run the stuff. It seemed important enough to my artistic health to take the plunge, so please, don't give up. We'll do everything we can to assist - gad, am I going to have to go buy a Mac now? :) - and our travails will make it easier for the next set of bumpkins.

Cheers,
Jon

Jon... thanks for the Bidule tip-- I loaded it and it recognizes CronoX-- however, I
still can't get any sound out of the thing. The interface is some sort of Max-ish
patchbay. It recognizes my Tascam US-428 as "in" and Built-in audio controller as
"out" -- "Mixer" is automatically linked to the built-in audio controller. I can drag and
drop CronoX to the workspace and open it there but no sound comes out of it. As I
understand it, the Tascam should be linked to CronoX and CronoX should be linked
to the Mixer, which goes to audio out. Even when I do this, no sound comes out. I'm
probably just not understanding the interface, but that's how far I've gotten. -Justin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
> Hi Justin,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Still trying to get this to work but no luck... I've downloaded 4
> >different VST hosts and they don't seem to be able to load CronoX... or if
> >they can, the demo versions are blocking me from loading it.
>
> Have you by any chance tried the application Bidule? I know that there are
> a lot of people, many in the electronica area, using that one for club
> things, concerts, raves, etc. It may be more complicated than what you need
> *just* to run a synth, but if it works you can just ignore the rest. I'm
> going to dl it and see what is up.
>
> It may very well be that other people who are using one or more of these
> synths are using them within applications that they already have for
> midi/audio production: Sonar, Logic, Cubase, etc. These are commercial
> products that aren't cheap but are in wide use. (I am using Sonar.)
>
> >A couple people out there mentioned using CronoX... what VST hosts are you
> >using to run it? Of couse, as Jon mentioned, in my case it has to work
> >with Mac OS X... I stymied again...
>
> Do hang in there, I'm sure there is a way. If it is of any consolation, I
> started investigating this area almost a year ago, and I've actually ended
> up building a whole new computer just to run the stuff. It seemed important
> enough to my artistic health to take the plunge, so please, don't give up.
> We'll do everything we can to assist - gad, am I going to have to go buy a
> Mac now? :) - and our travails will make it easier for the next set of
> bumpkins.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

I experimented more and got it to work-- i.e., receive input from the Roland--
HOORAY! Now I'll just have to experiment with patches and tuning and see if
*everything* works... I'll report back again later. Many thanks for this great tip. The
Bidule program rocks. -Justin

Justin,

{you wrote...}
>Jon... thanks for the Bidule tip-- I loaded it and it recognizes CronoX-- >however, I still can't get any sound out of the thing.

Crap. Look, I just dl'd Bidule. Let me toy with it a bit and see if what works for me (if it does) will work for you...

Cheers,
Jon

As you saw on my next message I got it to work, so no problem there. I can play
microtonal music now... as long as the scales are in .tun format. HOWEVER, when I
use Max Magic Microtuner to output a scale as a .tun file, CronoX won't load it. The
format says it's for Korg Synthesizer (.tun) file format. Whatever the format is, it isn't
compatible with CronoX. What I'm really itching to do is create some custom
microtonal scales and I'd like to be able to do them myself at home. Are there any
programs that can convert .scl --> .tun? -Justin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
> Justin,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Jon... thanks for the Bidule tip-- I loaded it and it recognizes CronoX--
> >however, I still can't get any sound out of the thing.
>
> Crap. Look, I just dl'd Bidule. Let me toy with it a bit and see if what
> works for me (if it does) will work for you...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

J,

OK, give this a shot:

I installed Bidule, built up a basic patch of my midi input, a mixer, my audio output, and then I loaded up CronoX as a VST (after finding that Bidule had defaulted to it's own VST folder, and pointing to the correct one).

Nothing. No sound. Nada. From the kbd or from mousing the onscreen kbd.

So I added one of their sound modules (an organ). Nothing.

There *has* to be sound with one of their modules. Quit the program, fired up two different apps, no problems with kbd input, etc. What could it be?

Loaded up the setup (I had saved it as first_attempt), started looking, looking for an answer...

Check out the button to the right of the "Undo"/"Redo" arrows - mouse-over shows "Toggle Signal Processing". Click on that, little red dot turns to a green dot (looks like a power switch on most appliances, copy machines, etc.)

Joy! Sounds come blasting out of the speakers! A free VST host with all kind of other possibilities!

I can only hope that the tip about the "Toggle..." button makes it work for you. I did notice that there is *no* corresponding menu option, and I am firmly in the camp that each button should (somewhere) have a corresponding menu choice.

Anyhow, I'm crossing my fingers maybe this is it!

Cheers,
Jon

Actually the .tun files that work are just in the format:

; VAZ Plus 1.5 tuning map file
; Created by Scala
[Tuning]
note 0=0
note 1=112
note 2=204
note 3=316
note 4=386
note 5=498
note 6=590
note 7=702
note 8=814
note 9=884
note 10=1018
note 11=1088
note 12=1200
note 13=1312
note 14=1404
note 15=1516
note 16=1586
note 17=1698
etc.

That's the duodene, above-- which means those must just be cents values. If that's
the case, can't I just create a .tun file in TextEdit and follow the format (above)
entering cents? In other words, can't I just "hand do" a .tun without a fancy editor? -
Justin

> Check out the button to the right of the "Undo"/"Redo" arrows - mouse-over
> shows "Toggle Signal Processing". Click on that, little red dot turns to a
> green dot (looks like a power switch on most appliances, copy machines, etc.)

Yep, that was it-- and I would you believe I discovered it all by my lonesome before I
even got your message? :)

>
> Joy! Sounds come blasting out of the speakers! A free VST host with all
> kind of other possibilities!

Yes, this VST host is truly awesome... amazing, actually. And it works with Mac OS X.

> Anyhow, I'm crossing my fingers maybe this is it!

Yes, now all I need to do is figure out how to create .tun files. I think I can enter the
cents values "by hand" into the file with a plain text editor... would that work? It's not
that laborious. -Justin

J,

(You'll have probably read another msg that I got Bidule to work, after you did as well...)

{you wrote...}
>HOWEVER, when I use Max Magic Microtuner to output a scale as a .tun file, >CronoX won't load it. The format says it's for Korg Synthesizer (.tun) >file format. Whatever the format is, it isn't compatible with CronoX. What >I'm really itching to do is create some custom microtonal scales and I'd >like to be able to do them myself at home. Are there any programs that can >convert .scl --> .tun?

I may have tried that once myself as well, and found that the format that the Max thing output didn't work with CronoX (and probably others). Take a look at the back of the .pdf manual for CronoX, and you'll notice about a 3 page tutorial on how to use Scala to do that conversion.

That may be your *only* way at this point - there is another tuning app by one of the people who was on this list (Jeff, you still out there?) that was on the Mac platform, called LMSO ("Little Miss Scale Oven"). Go here:

http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/

There is no doubt, with it's depth of features and broad use in the tuning community, that if you can find a way to start working with Scala you will be glad you did. You are awfully close right now to the beginnings of your explorations...

Cheers,
Jon

J,

{you wrote...}
>Yep, that was it-- and I would you believe I discovered it all by my >lonesome before I even got your message? :)

I believe many things... :)

>Yes, this VST host is truly awesome... amazing, actually. And it works >with Mac OS X.

I had heard a lot about it in one of the other musical communities (I use a Windows app called AudioMulch that is extraordinary, and is similar and different from Bidule; many there use both).

>Yes, now all I need to do is figure out how to create .tun files. I think >I can enter the cents values "by hand" into the file with a plain text >editor... would that work?

Why don't you find out? And I'm sure there are places, if you spend time Googling, that you can find info on the .tun format - I know from a friend that there is a more advance .tun format/support (i.e. it has to be supported by the device as well) that will allow for very fine resolutions in tuning - and I think we're only going to find this in the softsynth world, and that hardward manufacturers will probably ignore it.

>It's not that laborious.

True. Beats punching buttons on the front of a keyboard for an hour!

Cheers,
Jon

>
> That may be your *only* way at this point -

Scala only runs from the Linux terminal on OS X. If you've never used the Linux
terminal, words cannot describe how impossibly difficult it is to use with Scala.

>there is another tuning app by
> one of the people who was on this list (Jeff, you still out there?) that
> was on the Mac platform, called LMSO ("Little Miss Scale Oven"). Go here:
>
> http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/

Yep, I've heard of this one-- a bit expensive, but if it writes .tun files that are proven
to work with CronoX, I'll buy it.

>
> There is no doubt, with it's depth of features and broad use in the tuning
> community, that if you can find a way to start working with Scala you will
> be glad you did.

Well, that would involve flying blind in the Linux terminal so all I can do is hope Li'l
Miss Scale Oven can do it, or else just edit the .tun files by hand, which wouldn't be
so horrible. -Justin

> Why don't you find out? And I'm sure there are places, if you spend time
> Googling, that you can find info on the .tun format - I know from a friend
> that there is a more advance .tun format/support (i.e. it has to be
> supported by the device as well) that will allow for very fine resolutions
> in tuning - and I think we're only going to find this in the softsynth
> world, and that hardward manufacturers will probably ignore it.

I'll try hand-doing a .tun file where every key is set to middle C... that will tell me for
sure whether it worked or not. -Justin

It works! I successfully created a scale of 100% middle-C by hand-editing the .tun
files. I also discovered in the process that the .tun file is divided into a 1-cent
resolution tuning section and then an *exact* tuning section, accurate to 6 decimal
points! CronoX only looks at the *exact* tuning section. You can even delete the 1-
cent tuning section entirely and CronoX still plays the scale, so it's obviously looking
at the fine resolution. I'm not sure if it's actually playing back scales accurate to 6
decimal point (we'll need Kraig Grady's ears to find that out), but if it IS, that's fine
enough resolution to please the purest of the purists.

In a nutshell, everything works!

-Justin

J,

{you wrote...}
>I'll try hand-doing a .tun file where every key is set to middle C... that >will tell me for sure whether it worked or not.

You've gone Terry Riley one better!

Hey, not being a Mac guy, can't you dual-boot between OS X and one of the earlier Mac OS's (say, OS 9?) - rather than paying for a bunch of other apps you could pay for Virtual PC and run Scala, which is free. I'm just brainstorming, but I hate to keep seeing your OS of choice painting you (in this case) into some uncomfortable corners.

Let me know what you "C".

Cheers,
Jon

J,

{you wrote...}
>In a nutshell, everything works!

Then I can go to bed a contented ListMom. As I do further work in CronoX, I'll send you some of the patches I come up with, for your more musical and less tuning-oriented endeavors...

Cheers,
Jon

> Hey, not being a Mac guy, can't you dual-boot between OS X and one of the
> earlier Mac OS's (say, OS 9?) -

You can run Mac OS 9 entirely within Mac OS X and you can even boot to it in the
earliest releases of OS X-- the release I have only lets you run OS 9 within X, but it
makes no difference. Anytime you launch an OS 9 app, the OS 9 environment boots
itself within X and runs in "classic mode"-- the drawback is that audio applciations do
*not* work in classic mode, only natively in OS X.

>rather than paying for a bunch of other
> apps you could pay for Virtual PC and run Scala, which is free.

That proably won't be necessary.
>
> Let me know what you "C".

I you can C from my other post, it worked. These .tun files are amazing with such
fine-point resolution. -Justin

> I installed Bidule, built up a basic patch of my midi input, a mixer, my
> audio output, and then I loaded up CronoX as a VST (after finding that
> Bidule had defaulted to it's own VST folder, and pointing to the correct
> one).

Did you turn on the power button? No kidding. It has a power button.

Rick

Yes, having a piano patch that actually souns like a piano might be advantageous.
Right now all the patches I have qualify as "funky to the max". -Justin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
> J,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >In a nutshell, everything works!
>
> Then I can go to bed a contented ListMom. As I do further work in CronoX,
> I'll send you some of the patches I come up with, for your more musical and
> less tuning-oriented endeavors...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

J,

I didn't go to bed yet, and now you are going to ruin our triumphs!

{you wrote...}
>Yes, having a piano patch that actually souns like a piano might be >advantageous.
>Right now all the patches I have qualify as "funky to the max".

You didn't include particular sound emulations in your requirements for microtuneable instruments! Yikes!!!

OK, so you may still have a ways to search. But there is a lot of flexibility in CronoX - I'm not saying it will replace a piano, far from it. But if your intial purpose is to listen to tunings, and to play them for others, I am sure you can find a couple of patches/timbres that would work. It may take some time. Do keep in mind that you are delving in an area of music-making that is so far into being a niche that it probably redefines the term niche.

That, in a couple of days, you now have a system working that will play (probably) any tuning you might end up throwing at it is, well, pretty remarkable. I remember working with a guy who had to build an entire orchestra of instruments from scratch to do the same thing. Took him about 45 years.

Cheers,
Jon

>
> You didn't include particular sound emulations in your requirements for
> microtuneable instruments! Yikes!!!
>

It's not really that important right now. I have what I wanted so I am satisfied and
then some. I think there are CronoX patches out there that are very good and the
program can do sampling too, so I can always make my own when I figure out how to
use the program more. -Justin

Jonathan M. Szanto wrote:

>That, in a couple of days, you now have a system working that will play >(probably) any tuning you might end up throwing at it is, well, pretty >remarkable. I remember working with a guy who had to build an entire >orchestra of instruments from scratch to do the same thing. Took him about >45 years.
> >
Interesting! So did this chap include a way of emulating a piano in this orchestra of his?

Graham

Justin Weaver wrote:

>It works! I successfully created a scale of 100% middle-C by hand-editing the .tun >files. I also discovered in the process that the .tun file is divided into a 1-cent >resolution tuning section and then an *exact* tuning section, accurate to 6 decimal >points! CronoX only looks at the *exact* tuning section. You can even delete the 1-
>cent tuning section entirely and CronoX still plays the scale, so it's obviously looking >at the fine resolution. I'm not sure if it's actually playing back scales accurate to 6 >decimal point (we'll need Kraig Grady's ears to find that out), but if it IS, that's fine >enough resolution to please the purest of the purists. > >
Your own ears will do fine. Try mistuned unisons. Take your file of middle Cs and put one of them out of tune by 0.1 cents. With clean timbres, no vibrato, etc, you should hear the beating. Then make the mistuning smaller until you hear no beats. Normal synthesizers will give out before your ears do, which is why the purists dislike them so much.

If that works, try and work out the exact cents value for a perfect fifth without looking it up. You may be surprised how close you get! One trick is to play through stereo speakers, and move your head around. Just ratios really sound different when you do this -- you have to hear it to know what I mean.

Graham

G,

{you wrote...}
>Interesting! So did this chap include a way of emulating a piano in this >orchestra of his?

Um, no, he used a thing called a Chromelodeon...

Cheers,
Jon

G,

{you wrote...}
>Your own ears will do fine. Try mistuned unisons. Take your file of
>middle Cs and put one of them out of tune by 0.1 cents. With clean
>timbres, no vibrato, etc, you should hear the beating. Then make the
>mistuning smaller until you hear no beats. Normal synthesizers will
>give out before your ears do, which is why the purists dislike them so much.
>
>If that works, try and work out the exact cents value for a perfect
>fifth without looking it up. You may be surprised how close you get!
>One trick is to play through stereo speakers, and move your head
>around. Just ratios really sound different when you do this -- you have
>to hear it to know what I mean.

Those are great ideas. Even with a simple setup like this, it would be a great laboratory to work on some .tun files and check resolutions, setup La Monte Young - style drone pieces with slow (and calculated) phases.

I don't know that the synths in question are up to snuff for that exacting resolution. Time (and testing) will tell. Fortunately, I don't think my needs are for accuracy to 6 decimal points, and if synths need to be developed that *do* need that accuracy, people will have to come up with VERY compelling reasons for the developers to work that hard. They won't do it just for theoretical explorations, I'm sure of that!

Cheers,
Jon

> Graham
>
>
>
>
>[MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
>More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
>------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Real Life: Orchestral Percussionist
Web Life: "Corporeal Meadows" - about Harry Partch
http://www.corporeal.com/
NOTE:
If your reply bounces, try --> jonszanto@...

>
> I don't know that the synths in question are up to snuff for that exacting
> resolution. Time (and testing) will tell. Fortunately, I don't think my
> needs are for accuracy to 6 decimal points, and if synths need to be
> developed that *do* need that accuracy, people will have to come up with
> VERY compelling reasons for the developers to work that hard. They won't do
> it just for theoretical explorations, I'm sure of that!

According to the creator of Li'l Miss Scale Oven, CronoX does indeed look at the 6-
decimal point accurate section of the .tun file, and not at the 'rounded off' part. I
think this means CronoX is actually playing back tones with 6-decimal point accuracy.
I'll confirm this myself, though, when possible. -Justin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_5275.html#5302
>
> If that works, try and work out the exact cents value for a perfect
> fifth without looking it up. You may be surprised how close you
get!
> One trick is to play through stereo speakers, and move your head
> around. Just ratios really sound different when you do this -- you
have
> to hear it to know what I mean.
>

***This strange effect happens even with Blackjack, which is
frequently off by about 3 cents.

J. Pehrson

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Hey, not being a Mac guy, can't you dual-boot between OS X and one
of the
> earlier Mac OS's (say, OS 9?) - rather than paying for a bunch of
other
> apps you could pay for Virtual PC and run Scala, which is free. I'm
just
> brainstorming, but I hate to keep seeing your OS of choice painting
you (in
> this case) into some uncomfortable corners.

As a Mac OS X user, I have to admit the Windows platform offers a
greater choice of convenient tools for microtonal music making.

However, it seems to me the Mac OS music software world is still in a
state of transition. The Audio Unit plugin standard still seems to
be a young one, though a good selection of AU-compatible software is
starting to appear.

You mentioned the softsynth Crystal, which is available in an AU
version. Glenn, the developer, says that he is working on adding
microtonal functionality to this synth.

Both of the sequencers I have (Logic and Numerology) support AU in OS
X, not VST, so I'd be happy if somebody came up with an AU-compatible
microtonal softsynth. I'm still investigating the relative merits of
rolling my own in Max/MSP vs. saving the programming time and instead
investing in CronoX and a VST-AU adapter program like FXExpansion's.

So, I still think there is hope for microtonal music on Mac OS X,
especially if somebody comes up with an Audio Unit compatible,
microtuneable soft synth. I wouldn't be surprised if the first one
turns out to be Crystal.

Paolo

Hi Paulo,

{you wrote...}
>As a Mac OS X user, I have to admit the Windows platform offers a greater >choice of convenient tools for microtonal music making.

...and I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, or start platform wars. I've had computers since the Amiga, and there have been many times I've had Mac-envy. As an 'artist', this is one of the first times where the Mac platform *doesn't* have a leg up on the PC world.

>You mentioned the softsynth Crystal, which is available in an AU >version. Glenn, the developer, says that he is working on adding >microtonal functionality to this synth.

That is wild: I found it and decided I should try to use it as an alternate plugin for testing, and not only is it a nice synth, but I see that while it is free, he lists a charitable organization right here in my hometown to donate to! I had already thought about maybe sending him a note, asking what it would take for micro support, and with your indications I definitely will! Maybe I can be a local beta tester! (no, wait, that would take time away from making some progress on *music*...)

I also see that Peter at LinPlug is beta testing a soundfont sample player, and now with another sale chalked up to the micro support in CronoX, maybe we can find a way to convince him a sample-playback microtonal vst would be a _good_ thing...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
<jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...>
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_5275.html#5302
> >
> > If that works, try and work out the exact cents value for a
perfect
> > fifth without looking it up. You may be surprised how close you
> get!
> > One trick is to play through stereo speakers, and move your head
> > around. Just ratios really sound different when you do this --
you
> have
> > to hear it to know what I mean.
> >
>
> ***This strange effect happens even with Blackjack, which is
> frequently off by about 3 cents.
>
> J. Pehrson

hi joseph,

you may very well be getting some really just intervals the way your
equipment renders the blackjack scale. however, the effect graham
mentions requires extreme precision to really be appreciated. it
requires two speakers to be emitting some pure frequency component in
common, which would happen with two harmonic timbres playing a simple-
ratio just interval. what happens is that every point in the room
with the two speakers is *fixed* at a certain phase relationship
between the two sound waves of common frequency, ranging from
constructive interference to descructive interference. thus you can
stand in one place and hear a certain fixed amplitude (in each ear),
stand in another place and hear some other amplitude (in each ear),
and only if you're *moving* will you hear any beating! you get a
sense that the sound is physically occupying the room and is in a
steady state, position-wise. it's pretty special.

-paul

I tried this out and the idea that the sound is "physically" present is apt-- call it, "the
zen of just tuning." -Justin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
> <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...>
> >
> > /makemicromusic/topicId_5275.html#5302
> > >
> > > If that works, try and work out the exact cents value for a
> perfect
> > > fifth without looking it up. You may be surprised how close you
> > get!
> > > One trick is to play through stereo speakers, and move your head
> > > around. Just ratios really sound different when you do this --
> you
> > have
> > > to hear it to know what I mean.
> > >
> >
> > ***This strange effect happens even with Blackjack, which is
> > frequently off by about 3 cents.
> >
> > J. Pehrson
>
> hi joseph,
>
> you may very well be getting some really just intervals the way your
> equipment renders the blackjack scale. however, the effect graham
> mentions requires extreme precision to really be appreciated. it
> requires two speakers to be emitting some pure frequency component in
> common, which would happen with two harmonic timbres playing a simple-
> ratio just interval. what happens is that every point in the room
> with the two speakers is *fixed* at a certain phase relationship
> between the two sound waves of common frequency, ranging from
> constructive interference to descructive interference. thus you can
> stand in one place and hear a certain fixed amplitude (in each ear),
> stand in another place and hear some other amplitude (in each ear),
> and only if you're *moving* will you hear any beating! you get a
> sense that the sound is physically occupying the room and is in a
> steady state, position-wise. it's pretty special.
>
> -paul

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>

/makemicromusic/topicId_5275.html#5323

wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
> <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...>
> >
> > /makemicromusic/topicId_5275.html#5302
> > >
> > > If that works, try and work out the exact cents value for a
> perfect
> > > fifth without looking it up. You may be surprised how close
you
> > get!
> > > One trick is to play through stereo speakers, and move your
head
> > > around. Just ratios really sound different when you do this --
> you
> > have
> > > to hear it to know what I mean.
> > >
> >
> > ***This strange effect happens even with Blackjack, which is
> > frequently off by about 3 cents.
> >
> > J. Pehrson
>
> hi joseph,
>
> you may very well be getting some really just intervals the way
your
> equipment renders the blackjack scale. however, the effect graham
> mentions requires extreme precision to really be appreciated. it
> requires two speakers to be emitting some pure frequency component
in
> common, which would happen with two harmonic timbres playing a
simple-
> ratio just interval. what happens is that every point in the room
> with the two speakers is *fixed* at a certain phase relationship
> between the two sound waves of common frequency, ranging from
> constructive interference to descructive interference. thus you can
> stand in one place and hear a certain fixed amplitude (in each
ear),
> stand in another place and hear some other amplitude (in each ear),
> and only if you're *moving* will you hear any beating! you get a
> sense that the sound is physically occupying the room and is in a
> steady state, position-wise. it's pretty special.
>
> -paul

***Hi Paul,

Well, I swear I'm getting "odd" effects like this even with
Blackjack. Maybe it's something else going on, but I get strange
sensations in my ears.

Oh... I think I remember you saying something that *chords* in
Blackjack could present themselves to the ear as a *single*
sensation. Maybe that's part of the effect I'm trying to describe.

In any case, as I recall it seems that when I move around the room
the effect changes as well...

JP