chord progression

Here's something I was just playing at the piano (bass with
syncopated right hand)....

25/24
1/1 ---------------------1/1 - 1/1 ~ 35/18 ~~~~~ //
15/8 - 15/8
9/5
5/3 -------------------- 5/3 - 5/3
3/2 ------------- 3/2 -- 3/2 -------------- 3/2 - //
45/32 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 25/18
21/16 ~~~~~~~ 4/3
5/4 -------------- 5/4
6/5
9/8 - 9/8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 10/9 ~ 9/8

Cm A Bm G7 C F D7 Gm :||

...rendered in JI. [I think one still needs to do "message
index" and "expand messages" to view this on the web.]

The wavy lines are comma shifts. The commas involved are
81:80, 64:63, and 36:35. All of these are tempered out in
12-tET. There isn't a 7-limit version of Paul's excellent
database, and the zoomer graphs are of course only 5-limit,
so it's not easy to immediately find other temperaments
that catch all three commas. IIRC Pajara catches 64:63
and 36:35 but not 81:80.

The only adjacent shifts occur around the D7 chord. These
shifts can be reduced somewhat by using the alternate
tuning...

27/16
45/32
9/8
63/32

...this kicks 36:35 out of the progression, shrinking the
motion around 1/1, and keeps the "D" steady from D7 to Gm,
at the expense of introducing shift in the "A" from F to D7.

-Carl

> 25/24
> 1/1 ---------------------1/1 - 1/1 ~ 35/18 ~~~~~ //
> 15/8 - 15/8
> 9/5
> 5/3 -------------------- 5/3 - 5/3
> 3/2 ------------- 3/2 -- 3/2 -------------- 3/2 - //
> 45/32 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 25/18
> 21/16 ~~~~~~~ 4/3
> 5/4 -------------- 5/4
> 6/5
> 9/8 - 9/8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 10/9 ~ 9/8
>
> Cm A Bm G7 C F D7 Gm :||

I was going to create sound demos of this and the version
with the alternate D7 tuning, but it's just such a pain.
Anybody know a way to improve on the following method?

1. Enter the music into a score editor, first in 12-tET.
Export to midi, render in Audio Compositor. Convert to
mp3 and post to web.

2. Figure out how to cut the sequence up into chunks
that only require 12 tones each.

3. Create .scl files for the chunks.

4. Enter the music for each chunk in a score editor,
making sure to obey the scl file mappings. Export to
midi.

5. Use scala to retune all the midis. Render in
Audio Compositor.

6. Glue together the chunks in Cool Edit. Convert
to mp3 and post to the web.

I suppose if I get Sibelius/plugin or Finale working,
this will be a lot easier...

-Carl

Carl wrote:
>Anybody know a way to improve on the following method?

Why, and I made a webpage about Scala sequence files because
you asked it! Much easier than the process you describe.

Manuel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Here's something I was just playing at the piano (bass with
> syncopated right hand)....
>
> 25/24
> 1/1 ---------------------1/1 - 1/1 ~ 35/18 ~~~~~ //
> 15/8 - 15/8
> 9/5
> 5/3 -------------------- 5/3 - 5/3
> 3/2 ------------- 3/2 -- 3/2 -------------- 3/2 - //
> 45/32 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 25/18
> 21/16 ~~~~~~~ 4/3
> 5/4 -------------- 5/4
> 6/5
> 9/8 - 9/8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 10/9 ~ 9/8
>
> Cm A Bm G7 C F D7 Gm :||
>
> ...rendered in JI. [I think one still needs to do "message
> index" and "expand messages" to view this on the web.]
>
> The wavy lines are comma shifts. The commas involved are
> 81:80, 64:63, and 36:35. All of these are tempered out in
> 12-tET. There isn't a 7-limit version of Paul's excellent
> database, and the zoomer graphs are of course only 5-limit,
> so it's not easy to immediately find other temperaments
> that catch all three commas.

carl, please follow this up on tuning-math (since it doesn't belong
here), but three commas in three dimensions (7-limit) gives you a
fokker periodicity block, and if you temper out all of the commas,
the periodicity block becomes equally tempered. all you have to do is
take the determinant of the fokker matrix (see the _gentle
introduction to fokker periodicity blocks_, pt. 3:
<http://sonic-arts.org/td/erlich/intropblock3.htm>) and you get 12 or
-12 -- hence 12-equal (or 12-well) is the only solution.

>>Anybody know a way to improve on the following method?
>
>Why, and I made a webpage about Scala sequence files because
>you asked it! Much easier than the process you describe.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/seq_format.html

Great, I'm working through it now.

But wait, what's this notation business? I just want to
refer to consecutive degrees of the current scale. How's
that done? You say portability of a seq over different
tunings is a goal of the format...

How'd you enter the seq files that come with scala, if you
have no midi->seq converter?

-Carl

>But wait, what's this notation business? I just want to
>refer to consecutive degrees of the current scale. How's
>that done?

Nevermind, I see degree is one of the acceptable formats
for note. Sorry.

-C.

>carl, please follow this up on tuning-math (since it doesn't belong
>here), but three commas in three dimensions (7-limit) gives you a
>fokker periodicity block, and if you temper out all of the commas,
>the periodicity block becomes equally tempered. all you have to do is
>take the determinant of the fokker matrix (see the _gentle
>introduction to fokker periodicity blocks_, pt. 3:
><http://sonic-arts.org/td/erlich/intropblock3.htm>) and you get 12 or
>-12 -- hence 12-equal (or 12-well) is the only solution.

Thanks, Paul.

This belongs here -- I'm trying to make micro music!

The only follow up I have is, do we have names for the following
7-limit linear temperaments?

81:80 and 64:63 (two different 7-limit
81:80 and 36:35 meantone extensions?)
64:63 and 36:35 (Pajara?)

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:

> 81:80 and 64:63 (two different 7-limit
> 81:80 and 36:35 meantone extensions?)
> 64:63 and 36:35 (Pajara?)

They're all the same meantone extension.
81/80*64/63 = 36/35

Graham

Manuel,

It says tempo is "global", timesig allowed only once, and
division must be at the top. I assume this means these
are not per-track. Have you considered making them so?

What about the velocity statement?

-Carl

Hey, how come no /mts when the example is a seq file?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> How'd you enter the seq files that come with scala, if you
> have no midi->seq converter?

My usual method is to calculate them in Maple.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...>
wrote:
> Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> > 81:80 and 64:63 (two different 7-limit
> > 81:80 and 36:35 meantone extensions?)
> > 64:63 and 36:35 (Pajara?)
>
> They're all the same meantone extension.
> 81/80*64/63 = 36/35

Since Carl has my Maple programs, he can find the wedgie by
using wedgie7(a7i(81/80, 64/63)) and so forth; he should get the
wedgie for Dominant Seventh temperament.

>Since Carl has my Maple programs, he can find the wedgie by
>using wedgie7(a7i(81/80, 64/63)) and so forth; he should get the
>wedgie for Dominant Seventh temperament.

Where are the names paired with their wedgies?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_4879.html#4887

> >carl, please follow this up on tuning-math (since it doesn't
belong
> >here), but three commas in three dimensions (7-limit) gives you a
> >fokker periodicity block, and if you temper out all of the commas,
> >the periodicity block becomes equally tempered. all you have to do
is
> >take the determinant of the fokker matrix (see the _gentle
> >introduction to fokker periodicity blocks_, pt. 3:
> ><http://sonic-arts.org/td/erlich/intropblock3.htm>) and you get 12
or
> >-12 -- hence 12-equal (or 12-well) is the only solution.
>
> Thanks, Paul.
>
> This belongs here -- I'm trying to make micro music!
>
> The only follow up I have is, do we have names for the following
> 7-limit linear temperaments?
>
> 81:80 and 64:63 (two different 7-limit
> 81:80 and 36:35 meantone extensions?)
> 64:63 and 36:35 (Pajara?)
>
> -Carl

***Hi Carl,

I'm glad you posted this to the *main* list, finally, since I believe
it is exactly the kind of material that should be there. I think
it's a better place for "precompositional" ideas than here on Jon's
forum which, I believe, is more for *compositions...*

But, other people may see this differently than I do...

I think I need a bit more "layman" text to fully understand what you
are trying to do with these various sound files. I also think the
progressions go much too fast to hear anything right. They are
*much* faster than the old Monz ones that were used to illustrate
comma shifts with the good ol I-IV-V7-I...

J. Pehrson

>I think I need a bit more "layman" text to fully understand what
>you are trying to do with these various sound files.

It's just a demo. I don't have any point to make. Other than
perhaps, commas shifts don't bother me.

Is there anything I could make clearer? There's no difference
from what monz was doing with the I-IV-V-I stuff, as you seem to
realize...

>I also think the progressions go much too fast to hear anything
>right.

They're easy enough to slow down...

>They are *much* faster than the old Monz ones that were used to
>illustrate comma shifts with the good ol I-IV-V7-I...

Hmm. I wonder if they're playing faster on your system for
some reason? May I ask what midi player you're using?

-Carl

>Hey, how come no /mts when the example is a seq file?

Hadn't done it yet since MTS was so scarcely used. But it
wasn't much work and it will be in the next version.

Manuel

>How'd you enter the seq files that come with scala, if you
>have no midi->seq converter?

I read the score and typed them in.

Manuel

Carl wrote:

>It says tempo is "global", timesig allowed only once, and
>division must be at the top. I assume this means these
>are not per-track.

Yes.

>Have you considered making them so?

Not tempo, nonglobal tempo would only get the tracks out of sync.
Timesig I considered but haven't done, no one asked for it yet.
Division is a global midi file parameter, it didn't occur to me to
make it per track. It probably would only be confusing.

Manuel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_4879.html#4902

> Hmm. I wonder if they're playing faster on your system for
> some reason? May I ask what midi player you're using?
>
> -Carl

***Hi Carl,

Just Windows Media player. Aren't they faster than the Monz
examples??

Well, in any case, they're ok. Thanks for the interesting "tuning
game..."

But, I don't understand why the fundamentals on the chart are at the
very *top*?? Is there a reason for this?

Also, what is the MIDI file 10-9?? Does that mean you're using a
10/9 throughout, rather than a 9/8?? Sorry for the stupidity.

Also, what are the "Alaska" tunings?? I must have missed something
on one of the forums.

Quite frankly, I have no problems with the comma shift example. I
can hardly hear any changes. In fact, 12-tET bothers me quite a bit
more in the *vertical* sonority, particularly in the chorusy-buzzing
of the G7 for whatever reason...

Thanks for these interesting examples.

Whatever happened to the results of the "Temperament Shootout??" I
guess enough people didn't do it in order to give the results??

best,

JP

>>Have you considered making them so?
>
>Not tempo, nonglobal tempo would only get the tracks out of sync.
>Timesig I considered but haven't done, no one asked for it yet.
>Division is a global midi file parameter, it didn't occur to me to
>make it per track. It probably would only be confusing.

Division I agree. But what about polytempic music (just as
timesig would fascilitate polyrhythmic music)?

-Carl

>>How'd you enter the seq files that come with scala, if you
>>have no midi->seq converter?
>
>I read the score and typed them in.

Cool. I don't know how hard it would be, but I think a
midi-seq file would be useful.

-C.

>>I read the score and typed them in.
>
>Cool. I don't know how hard it would be, but I think a
>midi-seq file would be useful.

Duh... I mean midi->seq conversion. :)

-C.

Hi JP,

>Just Windows Media player. Aren't they faster than the Monz
>examples??

Don't remember. I could send slower versions, but maybe you'd
be interested to see how *easy* it is to do yourself!

< http://lumma.org/zip/Sssnake.zip > if you don't already
have it.

1. Rename sssnake.mid to something like sssnake-toofast.mid.

2. Open sssnake.seq in a text editor, such as Windows notepad,
usually found in Start -> Accessories -> Notepad.

3. Find the line, near the top: "0 tempo 85 pm".
Change the 85 to, say 50.

4. Save the file.

5. Now open Scala, and load "12_e12-9.scl". Then type
"cd C:\something\something", which is the path to the directory
with sssnake.seq in it.

6. Then just type "example sssnake".

If you now look in the directory, you'll see a new sssnake.mid,
which should be slower!

>But, I don't understand why the fundamentals on the chart are
>at the very *top*?? Is there a reason for this?

Most of the chords are in 1st inversion is all. In the demo,
I added bass, but it isn't necessary.

>Also, what is the MIDI file 10-9?? Does that mean you're using
>a 10/9 throughout, rather than a 9/8?? Sorry for the stupidity.

Maybe I didn't really explain it. The 10-9 file is the sequence
as depicted in the chart, with the D in the D7 chord being a 10/9.
The unmarked sssnake.mid is the alternate D7 tuning, with D being
a 9/8 (see my first message). In the 12et and alaska tunings,
those be the same pitch.

Here, I've provided a slow (50 pm) 10-9 file for you...

/makemicromusic/files/carl/

...now just make yourself a slower 9/8 version and compare!

>Also, what are the "Alaska" tunings?? I must have missed
>something on one of the forums.

I forget which list it was on (tuning, I thought), but I recently
invented six well temperaments called alaska1 ... alaska6. They
have compressed (as opposed to stretched) octaves.

>Quite frankly, I have no problems with the comma shift example.
>I can hardly hear any changes. In fact, 12-tET bothers me quite
>a bit more in the *vertical* sonority, particularly in the
>chorusy-buzzing of the G7 for whatever reason...

See if you can hear a difference around the D7 chord. I think
the sssnake.mid tuning is smoother overall, but the 10-9 version
seems to meet nicely with the following Gm chord.

>Thanks for these interesting examples.

Thanks for listening!

>Whatever happened to the results of the "Temperament Shootout??"
>I guess enough people didn't do it in order to give the results??

I'm still waiting for Paul.

-Carl

Carl, Joe:

{Carl, you wrote...}
>Don't remember. I could send slower versions, but maybe you'd
>be interested to see how *easy* it is to do yourself!
>
>< http://lumma.org/zip/Sssnake.zip > if you don't already
>have it.
>
>1. Rename sssnake.mid to something like sssnake-toofast.mid.
>
>2. Open sssnake.seq in a text editor, such as Windows notepad,
>usually found in Start -> Accessories -> Notepad.
>
>3. Find the line, near the top: "0 tempo 85 pm".
>Change the 85 to, say 50.
>
>4. Save the file.
>
>5. Now open Scala, and load "12_e12-9.scl". Then type
>"cd C:\something\something", which is the path to the directory
>with sssnake.seq in it.
>
>6. Then just type "example sssnake".
>
>If you now look in the directory, you'll see a new sssnake.mid,
>which should be slower!

Um, couldn't you just open the .mid file in a midi sequencer and change the tempo setting? Wouldn't that do the same thing in one step?

Cheers,
Jon

>Um, couldn't you just open the .mid file in a midi sequencer
>and change the tempo setting? Wouldn't that do the same thing
>in one step?

Yessir, I suppose one could do that.

-Carl

>>Um, couldn't you just open the .mid file in a midi sequencer
>>and change the tempo setting? Wouldn't that do the same thing
>>in one step?
>
>Yessir, I suppose one could do that.

But then one wouldn't be learning anything about scala seq
files.

-C.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4879.html#4914

<
> >
> >If you now look in the directory, you'll see a new sssnake.mid,
> >which should be slower!
>
> Um, couldn't you just open the .mid file in a midi sequencer and
change the tempo setting? Wouldn't that do the same thing in one step?
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***Ha, ha... That's funny. Well, that occurred to me to as maybe
being the *easy* way... :)

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul"
<manuel.op.de.coul@e...> wrote:
>
> >Hey, how come no /mts when the example is a seq file?
>
> Hadn't done it yet since MTS was so scarcely used.

It's getting used a lot now by me, at any rate.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >>How'd you enter the seq files that come with scala, if you
> >>have no midi->seq converter?
> >
> >I read the score and typed them in.
>
> Cool. I don't know how hard it would be, but I think a
> midi-seq file would be useful.

Yes, very useful; I use midi-csound programs in lieu of a midi-seq
program, but it would be nice to have, and really wonderful to have
if the control messages weren't mixed in with the note numbers, but
were separated into the program number tracks.

So who wants to write one? :)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >>Um, couldn't you just open the .mid file in a midi sequencer
> >>and change the tempo setting? Wouldn't that do the same thing
> >>in one step?
> >
> >Yessir, I suppose one could do that.
>
> But then one wouldn't be learning anything about scala seq
> files.

If that's the point of this exercise, I should mention that you don't
need to do as much typing as Carl did, and can use the pull-down menu
to get to the convert seq to midi routine instead.

>But what about polytempic music (just as
>timesig would fascilitate polyrhythmic music)?

Would be messy to implement because MIDI files
have only one tempo map.

Manuel

>So who wants to write one? :)

I'd want, let me see when I have time.

Manuel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...>
> wrote:
> > Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
> > > 81:80 and 64:63 (two different 7-limit
> > > 81:80 and 36:35 meantone extensions?)
> > > 64:63 and 36:35 (Pajara?)
> >
> > They're all the same meantone extension.
> > 81/80*64/63 = 36/35
>
> Since Carl has my Maple programs, he can find the wedgie by
> using wedgie7(a7i(81/80, 64/63)) and so forth; he should get the
> wedgie for Dominant Seventh temperament.

which means that my reply to carl was incorrect -- i stupidly assumed
he was talking about three independent commas, without even stopping
to check! sorry carl!!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I think I need a bit more "layman" text to fully understand what
> >you are trying to do with these various sound files.
>
> It's just a demo. I don't have any point to make. Other than
> perhaps, commas shifts don't bother me.

a few posts earlier, carl wrote,

"I dunno about you, folks, but the comma shifts in the JI versions
are really Hell Walking."

contradicting yourself?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >carl, please follow this up on tuning-math (since it doesn't
belong
> >here), but three commas in three dimensions (7-limit) gives you a
> >fokker periodicity block, and if you temper out all of the commas,
> >the periodicity block becomes equally tempered. all you have to do
is
> >take the determinant of the fokker matrix (see the _gentle
> >introduction to fokker periodicity blocks_, pt. 3:
> ><http://sonic-arts.org/td/erlich/intropblock3.htm>) and you get 12
or
> >-12 -- hence 12-equal (or 12-well) is the only solution.
>
> Thanks, Paul.

too bad no one pointed out that i was wrong!

> This belongs here -- I'm trying to make micro music!
>
> The only follow up I have is, do we have names for the following
> 7-limit linear temperaments?
>
> 81:80 and 64:63 (two different 7-limit
> 81:80 and 36:35 meantone extensions?)
> 64:63 and 36:35 (Pajara?)
>
> -Carl

see _the forms of tonality_ -- pajara can be defined by the vanishing
pair 64:63 and 50:49, or 64:63 and 225:224, or 50:49 and 225:224 . . .

>> It's just a demo. I don't have any point to make. Other than
>> perhaps, commas shifts don't bother me.
>
>a few posts earlier, carl wrote,
>
>"I dunno about you, folks, but the comma shifts in the JI versions
>are really Hell Walking."
>
>contradicting yourself?

Sorry, I was getting carried away with sarcasm in the first post.

-Carl