Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Tuning systems and relative / perfect pitch

Hello Bonnie!
It is quite natural to hear in a 12 ET system (we could call it a matrix) especially if one is brought up with such a thing there entire life. It seems as you mentioned in a latter post you mentioned tuning particular intervals and highly recomend this method. there are quite a few good tunings that use 12 tones one you can find here http://www.anaphoria.com/centaur.html
which enables you to hear two harmonic series in part and a subharmonic one (it mirror image). most ETs have an appeal in that they approach many of these intervals so it seems best to hear them first and find what appeals to you. there is a David Canwright who also came up with a 12 tone tuning quite close to this which uses even higher harmonics ( up to 13) in place of some of the more interesting scales. we can get him to dig this out or if someone remembers we could put this up as a option.
I realize i should have included the cents measurements and can send those if interested. but you mentioned blues thirds which we refer to as neutral thirds which can be substituted to in to either of the above systems. it seems best to get a hold of a small amount of notes and experiment with variations to find out just what it is you like. let your own ear lead you out of 12

>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:55:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bonnie Goodwin <goodwinbonnie@...>
> Subject: Tuning systems and relative / perfect pitch
>
> Hi Rick,
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but the way I hear pitch normally is to attempt to piace to the nearest 1/2 steop in 12 TET . Even if it is "out of tune" it is still a certain pitch or steop within that framework. After the traditional regimen of music theory and ear training that one gets in most batchlor programs, and years of taking off tunes for this gig and that gig, that's just the way my ears work. When listening to non 12TET, I almost experieince a vertigo like sensation trying to conceptualize what my ears hear into traditional pidgeon holes.
>
> Does this explain how it works with me, currently? This is why I am forcing my ears to get more familar with non 12 TET systems. Fortunately, my ears are not exact perfect pitch, which could drive someone nuts if something isn't pefectly in tune, my ears are able to adjust some to accommodate something that is recorded sharp or flat even though it is not exactly referenced to A=440, but still the ears are in analysis mode trying to analyse,catagorize the chord progressions melody and bass lines.
>
> I didn't intend to imply that relative pitch and 12TET are necessarily closely related, necessarily, but in my case, when music is played, my mind does these analysis things. It is to the point that I can only listen to music when concentrating on it specifically, otherwise I put talk radio on which can become blah, blah, blah when I need to concentrate on something else, but when listening to other than 12 TET, my ears are attempting to analyse it to the nearest semitone mentally.
>
> Bonnie *:>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Christopher Bailey <cb202@...>

I don't know if you're pigeon-holing to 12-tet, as opposed to simply
vague interval "ideals" that 12-tet ITSELF "pigeonholes" to in your mind.

For example, if you hear an interval of 697 cents, you'll probably think
"5th." But is your mind idealizing a 12-tet 5th of 700 cents, or maybe
a 702-cent Just fifth, that you hear all the time inside the timbres of
human voices?

Then if you hear an interval of 590 cents, are you hearing pigeonholing to
600-cent 12-tet tritone, or perhaps to a 45/32 Just tritone, or maybe even
to a 7/5 Just tritone?

It's probably true that there ARE intervals that you are used to, and that
you try to squeeze unfamiliar intervals into. On the other hand, that
the exact tuning of those intervals is 12-TET is not necessarily
something you should assume.

When you think about it, how many times do you think non-fixed-pitch
instruments (violins, voices, etc.) actually NAIL 12-TET intervals, to
within 2 cents, or even 15 cents? It may be more difficult than you
think.

Of course, coneptually, 12-TET is ingrained in us, (as a ctructural way of
viewing pitch space), but actually hitting its exact intervals is another
matter. . . .

🔗Eric Viking <decuritiba@...>

Hi, I see you guys are mentioning ear training
software tools, great, as a newbie I'd really love to
practice the several temperements comparisions!

But I guess that it's impossible, (maybe unless you
have the williams' syndrom), to form a mental database
of every microtone interval!

Another thing, I was talking to my accoustic teacher
and he said the the psychoaccoustic shows us that our
perception of tones are limited, that we can't
actually notice very small tuning differences, which
then means that some of the intervals used in some
scales are kinda "theorical" because in practice we
can't really distinguish a difference of 2 cents (I
guess)...

What you guys have to say about that?

Cheers
Alex

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🔗Robert Walker <robertwalker@...>

Hi Eric,

It seems that pitch perception is very variable, from some who
can't distinguish notes a semitone apart or more, to those who
can distinguish notes a single cent apart or less. Also
that one can learn to distinguish better with time.

Also, two types of failure to distinguish. Can be that one can't
hear a distinction at all and can be that one can hear that they
don't quite seem the same but don't know which way is "up" as it were.
Those who can't distinguish notes a semitone apart may hear them as
distinct but not know the direction in this fashion - a matter of
getting the topography of the pitch landscape sorted out and
finding a map or compass more likely, for it.

In his orignal paper on Shepard tones, Shepherd found that
some of his subjects (scientists at Bell laboratories)
couldn't distinguish notes a semitone apart at all - they
just sounded the same. But others could distinguish them
but didn't know the direction and some of these could learn the direction
when they came back after the experiment to find out more.

(Circularity in Judgements of Relative Pitch
The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America
Volume 36, number 12
pp. 2346-2353
1964)

One can also learn to distinguish notes that one was unable to distinguish
at all before - for one thing - notes that are louder seem higher in
pitch if they are in the treble clef, and lower in pitch if they are
at the bottom of the bass clef - just by a few cents. That is for
a pure tone - or a waveform audio recorder just played with an increased
amplitude. Players of acoustic instruments automatically raise the pitch
slightly as the note fades away (for high pitched instruments - the other
way for low pitched instruments such as cello or double bass) to compensate
for this effect. You notice it often with sound card voices because no
compensation occurs and you can maybe hear that the fade away of the sound
seems a bit lower in pitch for high notes than the note itself.

If one learns to notice that, then working the other way one can learn to
distinguish between volume and pitch changes in these notes,
and be able to tell apart two notes of the same volume and varied
in pitch and so go to finer distinctions than one could before.

Thanks,

Robert

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Alex,

{you wrote...}
>Hi, I see you guys are mentioning ear training software tools, great, as a >newbie I'd really love to practice the several temperements comparisions!

Get Scala. With either playing items with the mouse, or better yet, using the Relay function to play the tunings with a midi keyboard, you can play any scale/tuning you can concoct. It would be easy for you to work on scales, attempting to sing pitches before you play them, etc. Ear training in new intonations is right at your fingertips, for free.

>But I guess that it's impossible, (maybe unless you have the williams' >syndrom), to form a mental database of every microtone interval!

Nothing is impossible. It may be that you will come to know certain tunings, or certain intervals, better than other; nonetheless, I see no reason why the ear-brain connection can't be expected to become familiar with many types of intervals and tunings.

>Another thing, I was talking to my accoustic teacher... What you guys have >to say about that?

I'd say that your teacher is not adequately informed, that he/she would get *serious* argument from a number of people on the various tuning lists, and that a teacher should not limit their students.

Intervals of very small distances are probably easier to hear in some context; heard harmonically might be easier than melodically, but it is all relative. The is, I am sure, some lower limit beyond which our distinction ends. But 2 cents seems awfully high, especially in light of the fact that one esteemed colleague has based a career somewhat around his ability to produce 1-cent differences at will.

Why not find out what *you* can do, instead of letting your instructors limit you?

Cheers,
Jon

>Cheers
>Alex
>
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🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> one esteemed colleague has based a career somewhat around his
ability to
> produce 1-cent differences at will.

but refuses to submit to any kind of test of his accuracy.

> Why not find out what *you* can do, instead of letting your
instructors
> limit you?

i second that. still, even if we assume 2 cents *is* the lower limit,
you have an astronomical array of tuning possibilities before you . .
. and western music is centered around only multiples of 100 cents!

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Paul,

{you wrote...}
>but refuses to submit to any kind of test of his accuracy.

Well, gee, I thought *everyone* took him at his word... :)

>still, even if we assume 2 cents *is* the lower limit, you have an >astronomical array of tuning possibilities before you . . . and western >music is centered around only multiples of 100 cents!

Extremely well said.

One last thing to Alex, from personal experience: when you work on being able to hear and reproduce small intervals, the weirdest thing happens - a simple little half-step then sounds as wide as the Grand Canyon! Those small intervals of a few cents difference CAN be heard, learned, and reproduced.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Bailey

/makemicromusic/topicId_4778.html#4783

>
> It's probably true that there ARE intervals that you are used to,
and that you try to squeeze unfamiliar intervals into. On the other
hand, that the exact tuning of those intervals is 12-TET is not
necessarily something you should assume.
>
> When you think about it, how many times do you think non-fixed-pitch
> instruments (violins, voices, etc.) actually NAIL 12-TET intervals,
to within 2 cents, or even 15 cents? It may be more difficult than
you think.
>
> Of course, coneptually, 12-TET is ingrained in us, (as a ctructural
way of viewing pitch space), but actually hitting its exact
intervals is another matter. . . .
>

***I think you're on to something here, Chris. Without being
heretical, I would bet that in many performance situations there
are "adjustments" going on that would even approach the width of an
1/8th tone!

J. Pehrson

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4778.html#4789

> One last thing to Alex, from personal experience: when you work on
being able to hear and reproduce small intervals, the weirdest thing
happens - a simple little half-step then sounds as wide as the Grand
Canyon! Those small intervals of a few cents difference CAN be heard,
learned, and reproduced.
>

***Jon is making an *extremely* important point here... or at least a
point that has been extremely important to *me!* After working with
the blackjack scale and 1/6th tones and 1/12th tones, a quartertone
*definitely* starts sounding like a *semitone!*

J. Pehrson

🔗Eric Viking <decuritiba@...>

"> One last thing to Alex: when you work on small
intervals, a simple little half-step then sounds as
wide as the Grand Canyon! Those small intervals of a
few cents difference CAN be heard, learned, and
reproduced.>"
=======
***"Jon is making an *extremely* important point
here... After working with 1/6th tones and 1/12th
tones, a quartertone *definitely* starts sounding like
a *semitone!*
J. Pehrson"
============

Thanks for you all folks, I'm starting my own
experiences and I guess I should point them out, well,
I'm trying to find out what I can do, and I really
think the semitone is a wide universe, but my musical
training is not that good even on 12EQ, I don't have
perfect pitch, just a poor relative pitch so far.

So what's the general goup's idea, (if there is any),
I think it makes sense to be an expert on a simple
language first (let's say the 12EQ), then you move on
to a more complex universe.

> After working with 1/6th tones and 1/12th

Wow, 1/12th tones, that's less than 10 cents, right?
It's not as small as I was first concerned, (less than
two cents) but it's small, I'll try that.

cheers
Alex

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🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

🔗Porres <decuritiba@...>

🔗Bonnie Goodwin <goodwinbonnie@...>

wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...> wrote:
--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Eric Viking <decuritiba@y...>
wrote:

>> Wow, 1/12th tones, that's less than 10 cents, right?

> no, 1/12th tone is about 17 cents.

I found them on sale at Safeway 8 for a buck!!

Bonnie *>

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Tuning systems and relative / perfect pitch

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Christopher Bailey <cb202@...>

🔗Eric Viking <decuritiba@...>

🔗Eric Viking <decuritiba@...>

🔗Robert Walker <robertwalker@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

🔗Eric Viking <decuritiba@...>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

🔗Porres <decuritiba@...>

🔗Bonnie Goodwin <goodwinbonnie@...>