Re: Improvisation in seven equal

HI Gene,

> I couldn't find it. Would you consider moving it to the 7equal
> folder I made?

Okay done.

I'll maybe do a short written piece in seven equal too.

Enjoyed your CD btw thanks,

Interesting that the Bach makes sense in seven equal.
Did you transform it in some clever way?

Robert

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Walker"
<robertwalker@n...> wrote:

> Enjoyed your CD btw thanks,

Any comments?

> Interesting that the Bach makes sense in seven equal.
> Did you transform it in some clever way?

I treated 7-equal as the ultimately flattened-fifth version of
meantone, and retuned it using the following Scala file:

! eq7mean.scl
!
7 equal for 12 equal as meantone
12
!
171.428571
171.428571
342.857143
342.857143
514.285714
514.285714
685.714286
857.142857
857.142857
1028.571429
1028.571429
1200.000000

You reset the Scala 1/1 to the key of the piece and you're in
business.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Walker"
<robertwalker@n...> wrote:
> HI Gene,
>
> > I couldn't find it. Would you consider moving it to the 7equal
> > folder I made?
>
> Okay done.
>
> I'll maybe do a short written piece in seven equal too.
>
> Enjoyed your CD btw thanks,
>
> Interesting that the Bach makes sense in seven equal.
> Did you transform it in some clever way?

i'd be shocked if he did anything different than just ignoring
sharps and flats -- the obvious way to play western notated music in
7-equal.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Walker"
> <robertwalker@n...> wrote:
>
> > Enjoyed your CD btw thanks,
>
> Any comments?
>
> > Interesting that the Bach makes sense in seven equal.
> > Did you transform it in some clever way?
>
> I treated 7-equal as the ultimately flattened-fifth version of
> meantone, and retuned it using the following Scala file:
>
> ! eq7mean.scl
> !
> 7 equal for 12 equal as meantone
> 12
> !
> 171.428571
> 171.428571
> 342.857143
> 342.857143
> 514.285714
> 514.285714
> 685.714286
> 857.142857
> 857.142857
> 1028.571429
> 1028.571429
> 1200.000000
>
> You reset the Scala 1/1 to the key of the piece and you're in
> business.

the piece only uses 12 or fewer notated notes?

Hi Gene

I liked your use of the bell sounds.

Those beating intervals make it all very bright and cheerful to my ear,
kind of fairground atmosphere, maybe a bit like the Fauves art style,
and they go particularly well with bells as real bells usually have doublets
that play like that.

I understand about your seven equal file now, thanks.
Interesting connection with mean tone scales.

I've just done a piece in a quarter tones best approximation to seven equal. Since both have near 11/9s I thought it might be an
interesting way to explore the harmonic language of 24 / 12 equal and seven equal in a single tuning.

http://tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/tunes.htm#24_eq_7_approx

and I've put the mid clip in the files area too as it is tiny, but not the score.

I don't think it really uses so much of the seven equal harmonic language yet though, except the final resting on a diad rather than
a triad.

Thanks,

Robert

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> i'd be shocked if he did anything different than just ignoring
> sharps and flats -- the obvious way to play western notated music in
> 7-equal.

I didn't start from a notated score, but a midi file. I agree that
killing off all sharps and flats is slicker, and I wonder if there is
a way to get one of the score manipulation programs to do this. You could
kill the sharps and flats, save the result as a midi file, and retune
it via Scala. (This would work in general as a way of lifting 12-et to
dominant seventh temperament, which would be a good start for
converting it to meantone.)

>I didn't start from a notated score, but a midi file. I agree that
>killing off all sharps and flats is slicker, and I wonder if there is
>a way to get one of the score manipulation programs to do this. You could
>kill the sharps and flats, save the result as a midi file, and retune
>it via Scala.

How is this slicker than just doing what you did (which involves only
1, instead of 2 steps)?

>(This would work in general as a way of lifting 12-et to
>dominant seventh temperament, which would be a good start for
>converting it to meantone.)

Eh?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Walker"
<robertwalker@n...> wrote:

> I've just done a piece in a quarter tones best approximation to
seven equal. Since both have near 11/9s I thought it might be an
> interesting way to explore the harmonic language of 24 / 12 equal
and seven equal in a single tuning.

Another interesting possibility is 31-equal--do you recall the
discussion of the "arabic" scale in it, which is a sort of modified
7-equal?

I've thought about writing a 7-equal piece and then harmonizing it
into 13-limit JI, and now seems like the time to try it. I'll see if
I can come up with something I like well enough to post.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> > i'd be shocked if he did anything different than just ignoring
> > sharps and flats -- the obvious way to play western notated music
in
> > 7-equal.
>
> I didn't start from a notated score, but a midi file. I agree that
> killing off all sharps and flats is slicker, and I wonder if there
is
> a way to get one of the score manipulation programs to do this. You
could
> kill the sharps and flats, save the result as a midi file, and
retune
> it via Scala. (This would work in general as a way of lifting 12-et
to
> dominant seventh temperament, which would be a good start for
> converting it to meantone.)

Dear Group,

Please help me understand where I'm going wrong. Don't we use the
scores as written originally? I thought their sharps and flats were
just tuned differently not added on later. Are we engaged in a
restoration process or a mastication process? There are enough
amature musician already. We should not make apple sause out of
classical music.

Respectfully your,
Jim Nagy

Jim,

{you wrote...}
>Please help me understand where I'm going wrong. Don't we use the scores >as written originally? I thought their sharps and flats were just tuned >differently not added on later.

Well, I'll give it a stab: didn't you want to hear stuff in 7ET, which we *usually* consider to mean dividing an octave into seven equal parts. If one does this, how would you propose to take music that has divided - and notated - music into 12 equal parts?

Some of what has been done in the last day or two is to move the sharps/flats in one direction or another by a half-step, clearing the sharp/flat. One is then left with a diatonic ("white note") scale, and each of those 7 keys/notes will correspond to one of the 7 equal pitches in the octave.

That is what I *believe* Gene has done, with regard to midi files. A midi file, in it's most simple implementation, has assigned a number to each key, and records a note-on and a note-off. Therefore, it is remarkably like a piano roll (and that analogy has been used in some sequencers); of course, midi files can contain other information, including the amount of pitch bend applied to a given note, but that is not what is being discussed right now.

>Are we engaged in a restoration process or a mastication process?

I have no idea. What would *you* call taking a file representing one tuning and altering it (in some form) to use another tuning?

>There are enough amature musician already. We should not make apple >sause out of
>classical music.

I'm a professional musician; I quite often prefer to hang out with amateurs. I also happen to like applesauce! :)

I hope this has shed a little light, Jim. I still have the feeling that you've dived in the deep end, and you might want to focus on one task or area at a time and find what works for you, be it doing some midi sequencing, or finding a way on a standard keyboard to play non-12tet tunings, or some similar scenario. Maybe if you could, as clearly and succinctly as possible, write out what you'd *like* to do, we can find a clear and easy way to help you do that!

Best,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I didn't start from a notated score, but a midi file. I agree that
> >killing off all sharps and flats is slicker, and I wonder if there is
> >a way to get one of the score manipulation programs to do this. You
could
> >kill the sharps and flats, save the result as a midi file, and retune
> >it via Scala.
>
> How is this slicker than just doing what you did (which involves only
> 1, instead of 2 steps)?

It uses the extra information provided by the sharps and flats, so
it's more likely to be correct.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> I have no idea. What would *you* call taking a file representing one
tuning
> and altering it (in some form) to use another tuning?

If you believe Eytan Agmon, the music never was in 12-equal in the
first place. It was in both 12-equal and 7-equal, where we only play
the 12-equal. In tossing the sharps and flats, we decide to play the
7-equal instead.

Personally, I call that meantone, but no one believes me.

Hi Gene,

{you wrote...}
>If you believe Eytan Agmon, the music never was in 12-equal in the
>first place. It was in both 12-equal and 7-equal, where we only play
>the 12-equal. In tossing the sharps and flats, we decide to play the
>7-equal instead.
>
>Personally, I call that meantone, but no one believes me.

Could you be just a little less transparent? :) When you say "the music never was in 12..." - *what* music are you speaking of? Which exact piece and midi file?

I can't, at the moment, conceive of music that would be notated using sharps/flats mixed in with diatonic notes and then having them 'thrown out' without making it a completely different piece of music.

I'm wondering if this entire thing hasn't gotten so confused as to be out of hand. And I myself don't know the writings/postings of Eytan Agmon.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >If you believe Eytan Agmon, the music never was in 12-equal in the
> >first place. It was in both 12-equal and 7-equal, where we only play
> >the 12-equal. In tossing the sharps and flats, we decide to play the
> >7-equal instead.
> >
> >Personally, I call that meantone, but no one believes me.
>
> Could you be just a little less transparent? :) When you say "the music
> never was in 12..." - *what* music are you speaking of?

Any and every piece of music in the "Western Tone System", which
probably does not include Machaut and certainly does not include
Partch, but probably does include everything the San Diego Symphony
Orchestra plays.

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
>Any and every piece of music in the "Western Tone System", which probably >does not include Machaut and certainly does not include Partch, but >probably does include everything the San Diego Symphony Orchestra plays.

You're kidding, right? You (or who(m)ever) is proposing that one could take any piece of 12tet, throw out - either arbitrarily, or (I imagine) better yet, with some sort of forethought - any note that happens to be a sharp or flat, send all the rest to the appropriate pitch of a 7 tone equal tempered scale and it would be...

...acceptable? Proper? Better? Not changed in character whatsoever?

Tell me this is a joke.

Cheers,
Jon

>>>I didn't start from a notated score, but a midi file. I agree that
>>>killing off all sharps and flats is slicker, and I wonder if there is
>>>a way to get one of the score manipulation programs to do this. You
>>>could kill the sharps and flats, save the result as a midi file, and
>>>retune it via Scala.
>>
>>How is this slicker than just doing what you did (which involves only
>>1, instead of 2 steps)?
>
>It uses the extra information provided by the sharps and flats, so
>it's more likely to be correct.

Ah, but you have to find a midi file that was made by hand, so that
spellings are respected. Know where to get such files?

-Carl

Jonathan M. Szanto wrote:

> You're kidding, right? You (or who(m)ever) is proposing that one could take > any piece of 12tet, throw out - either arbitrarily, or (I imagine) better > yet, with some sort of forethought - any note that happens to be a sharp or > flat, send all the rest to the appropriate pitch of a 7 tone equal tempered > scale and it would be...
> > ...acceptable? Proper? Better? Not changed in character whatsoever?

I think Aytan was saying that 12tet is the proper tuning reference for any piece in the "Western Tone System". That is, you don't have to tune strictly to 12-equal, but 12-equal is important somehow anyway, and meantone tuning is irrelevant, although the interpretation looks suspiciously like meantone.

> Tell me this is a joke.

Gene is linking Aytan's generic dimension to 7-equal, which seems to be his own theory. In which case I wish he'd say so -- we hardly needed Aytan to tell us about diatonic/chromatic numbering for meantone-like systems.

If you remember, Paul offered to send copies of the paper to anybody interested. The ensuing conversation wasn't on a public list and so isn't archived. There were some posts on tuning-math. You should be able to find his home page here, under "Faculty & Staff"

http://www.biu.ac.il/HU/mu/index.html

I thought �Coherent Tone-Systems: A Study in the Theory of Diatonicism,� Journal of Music Theory 40 (1995); was the relevant article, and more detailed than the one we have. Has anybody seen it? I had no idea "Functional Harmony Revisited" covered the same ground. The MTO articles certainly don't.

I don't know where reductionism comes into it.

Graham

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Ah, but you have to find a midi file that was made by hand, so that
> spellings are respected. Know where to get such files?

An exellent point. Another, which has been bothering me, is that you
need to trust the composer or whoever did the spelling not to be
sloppy. It would seem my system is really safer.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...> wrote:

> Gene is linking Aytan's generic dimension to 7-equal, which seems to be
> his own theory.

Bah, humbug. The generic dimension is the same in major, minor or any
other mode. From this you can show it is 7-equal. Despite what Paul
thinks, there is really no theory about this. It's 12-equal + 7-equal,
and that's meantone.

In which case I wish he'd say so -- we hardly needed
> Aytan to tell us about diatonic/chromatic numbering for meantone-like
> systems.

That's exactly what it is, however.

> If you remember, Paul offered to send copies of the paper to anybody
> interested. The ensuing conversation wasn't on a public list and so
> isn't archived.

Eytan was a good sport; he suffered the thumbscrews and iron maiden
for quite some time before fleeing. As to the perviousness of his
noggin to unfamiliar ideas, that would be another matter.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >>>I didn't start from a notated score, but a midi file. I agree
that
> >>>killing off all sharps and flats is slicker, and I wonder if
there is
> >>>a way to get one of the score manipulation programs to do this.
You
> >>>could kill the sharps and flats, save the result as a midi file,
and
> >>>retune it via Scala.
> >>
> >>How is this slicker than just doing what you did (which involves
only
> >>1, instead of 2 steps)?
> >
> >It uses the extra information provided by the sharps and flats, so
> >it's more likely to be correct.
>
> Ah, but you have to find a midi file that was made by hand, so that
> spellings are respected. Know where to get such files?

Carl, see my mmm message 4700 visit the site and pick search.
LOL,
Jim

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> You're kidding, right? You (or who(m)ever) is proposing that one
could take
> any piece of 12tet,

recall that telemann and mozart intended something more like 55-equal
rather than 12-equal. and notationally, even later composers, and
certainly earlier ones, notated G# and Ab deliberately differently
depending on function. the idea is to observe these distinctions.

> throw out - either arbitrarily, or (I imagine) better
> yet, with some sort of forethought - any note that happens to be a
sharp or
> flat,

we're not throwing out any notes, of course -- simply ignoring the
accidentals and treating the 7 letter names as if equally spaced.
since G# goes to G and Ab goes to A, we can't simply rely on a midi
file, since that doesn't distinguish G# from Ab in the first place.

> send all the rest to the appropriate pitch of a 7 tone equal
>tempered
> scale and it would be...
>
> ...acceptable?

no one's saying that.

> Proper?

or that.

> Better?

or that!

> Not changed in character whatsoever?

certainly not that!

> Tell me this is a joke.

this was in fact part of the tuning experiments i did over 10 years
ago using a macintosh. converting a piece to 7-equal like this
essentially obliterates all chromatic information from the piece, so
it's interesting to hear what remains. since telemann, mozart, and a
huge number of other western composers since 1450 or so were clearly
thinking along meantone lines, we can use such pieces of music to
explore what various tuning systems sound like in a meantone context.
if you look at the first graph on this page:

http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/eqtemp.htm

you'll see the green line labeled meantone passing through the
familiar "classical" equal temperaments: 12, 55, 43, 31, 50, 19. also
along this line can be found unequal meantones like 1/4-comma
meantone, 7/26-comma meantone, golden meantone, lucytuning,
metameantone, etc. (though they're not labeled, each corresponds to a
unique point on this line). anyway, just about any piece between 1450
and beethoven can be read directly from the score into any of these
meantone tunings, as well as to much stranger-sounding ones on the
extreme left and extreme right of the line. in this case, 17-equal
and 7-equal, respectively. doing so greatly distorts the consonant
intervals from their theoretically ideal, just ratios. but the
structure of the music manages to come through just fine. that is,
until you get near 7-equal, since in that vicinity all the chromatic
information disappears from audibility.

so the idea is that you can "try out" at least one aspect of quite a
large variety of tuning systems by simply mapping some renaissance,
baroque, or early classical music in this way. hopefully, you'll hear
how certain expressive features are enhanced while others are
weakened, and with some inspiration, the best result is thus being
inspired to write some music that really brings out the unique
characteristics of one of these more unfamiliar tuning systems. for
those who prefer to keep one foot in the familiar (i.e., meantone
scale structure/notation), this may be an excellent way to start
exploring novel tuning systems.

Paul,

{you wrote...}
>recall that telemann and mozart intended something more like 55-equal >rather than 12-equal. and notationally, even later composers, and >certainly earlier ones, notated G# and Ab deliberately differently >depending on function. the idea is to observe these distinctions.

Elementary, but not what *I* was referring to.

>(Jon)
> > throw out - either arbitrarily, or (I imagine) better
> > yet, with some sort of forethought - any note that happens to be a > sharp or
> > flat,
>
>we're not throwing out any notes, of course -- simply ignoring the
>accidentals and treating the 7 letter names as if equally spaced.

This is what I meant by "throwing out". I didn't mean omit a note, creating a hole, but moving a note to a new pitch. If a sequence had G#-G, it would now be G-G - the same pitch, not two differing pitches.

>since G# goes to G and Ab goes to A, we can't simply rely on a midi file, >since that doesn't distinguish G# from Ab in the first place.

Naturally!

> > send all the rest to the appropriate pitch of a 7 tone equal
> >tempered
> > scale and it would be...
> >
> > ...acceptable?
>
>no one's saying that.

Gene apparently is:

GWS: If you believe Eytan Agmon, the music never was in 12-equal in the first place. It was in both 12-equal and 7-equal, where we only play the 12-equal. In tossing the sharps and flats, we decide to play the 7-equal instead.

(Jon again: note how GWS says "tossing...", which sounds like "throwing out" to me; I don't make this up)

GWS: Personally, I call that meantone, but no one believes me.

Jon: When you say "the music never was in 12..." - *what* music are you speaking of?

GWS: Any and every piece of music in the "Western Tone System", which probably does not include Machaut and certainly does not include Partch, but probably does include everything the San Diego Symphony Orchestra plays.

Me again: And that is where it becomes either a joke or simply something for someone to while away the hours. No one could rightly figure that a Brahm's sonata or a Chopin etude, not to mention a piece by Takemitsu could have accidentals tossed, reduced to a diatonic 7eq and be even remotely considered the same piece of music.

Though the Takemitsu might be interesting... :)

>this was in fact part of the tuning experiments i did over 10 years ago...

All well and good.

>...in this case, 17-equal and 7-equal, respectively. doing so greatly >distorts the consonant intervals from their theoretically ideal, just >ratios. but the structure of the music manages to come through just fine. >that is, until you get near 7-equal, since in that vicinity all the >chromatic information disappears from audibility.

If one takes a given (and known) piece and transforms it in this way, there will almost always be *some* kind of context to orient oneself to the piece. Rhythmic values and basic melodic shape would almost always be a dead giveaway. But at some point you stray so far from meantone approximations to out-and-out what-the-hell tunings that any honest person must say "Hey, this is just screwing around to see what it sounds like." Which is perfectly fine by me, but doesn't put it much differently than pulling up tunings at random and noodling and jamming on them. I've known people to fill up multiple CDs of material like that... :)

>so the idea is that you can "try out" at least one aspect of quite a large >variety of tuning systems by simply mapping some renaissance, baroque, or >early classical music in this way.

Well, with those constraints it *certainly* makes more sense to me, but this narrow scope was not what Gene was alluding to.

>for those who prefer to keep one foot in the familiar (i.e., meantone >scale structure/notation), this may be an excellent way to start exploring >novel tuning systems.

Makes sense to me.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4739

> if you look at the first graph on this page:
>
> http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/eqtemp.htm
>
> you'll see the green line labeled meantone passing through the
> familiar "classical" equal temperaments: 12, 55, 43, 31, 50, 19.
also
> along this line can be found unequal meantones like 1/4-comma
> meantone, 7/26-comma meantone, golden meantone, lucytuning,
> metameantone, etc. (though they're not labeled, each corresponds to
a
> unique point on this line). anyway, just about any piece between
1450
> and beethoven can be read directly from the score into any of these
> meantone tunings

***This is a fascinating study. I don't remember this visual graph
of Monzo's being quite this colorful, and I don't remember all the
temperament names. There's been some addition to this, obviously...

J. Pehrson

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4740

> Me again: And that is where it becomes either a joke or simply
something for someone to while away the hours. No one could rightly
figure that a Brahm's sonata or a Chopin etude, not to mention a
piece by Takemitsu could have accidentals tossed, reduced to a
diatonic 7eq and be even remotely considered the same piece of music.
>

***Wasn't the period and the music that Paul was considering for this
exercise a bit earlier in period? I don't believe that Brahms and
Chopin were ever considered candidates for this meantone analysis,
correct?? It was more "white note" stuff to begin with, if I
understand this correctly...

J. Pehrson

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>***Wasn't the period and the music that Paul was considering for this >exercise a bit earlier in period? I don't believe that Brahms and Chopin >were ever considered candidates for this meantone analysis, correct?? It >was more "white note" stuff to begin with, if I understand this correctly...

Everyone needs to pay attention: my objections to this idea were what Gene originally proposed, NOT what Paul inferred/implied/contributed. I agree with a fair amount of what Paul says.

You know, I think we are getting so far into the theory of this item that it may have a better home. I'm not shutting it down, but let us all keep this in mind...

Congrats on the NY'r mention - I get mine later out here on the West coast, by Pony Express!

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4743

<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >***Wasn't the period and the music that Paul was considering for
this
> >exercise a bit earlier in period? I don't believe that Brahms and
Chopin
> >were ever considered candidates for this meantone analysis,
correct?? It
> >was more "white note" stuff to begin with, if I understand this
correctly...
>
> Everyone needs to pay attention: my objections to this idea were
what Gene
> originally proposed, NOT what Paul inferred/implied/contributed. I
agree
> with a fair amount of what Paul says.
>
> You know, I think we are getting so far into the theory of this
item that
> it may have a better home. I'm not shutting it down, but let us all
keep
> this in mind...
>
> Congrats on the NY'r mention - I get mine later out here on the
West coast,
> by Pony Express!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***Thanks, Jon! Actually, I had no intention specifically that *my*
piece be listed. Some other composers who were *not* listed have
greater accolades than mine... However, I guess the editor was
intrigued by the idea of a 21-note scale that was
called "Blackjack..." So, apparently, it stood out. Hope that
augurs well for continued success of the scale!

best,

Joe

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> GWS: If you believe Eytan Agmon, the music never was in 12-equal in the
> first place. It was in both 12-equal and 7-equal, where we only play
the
> 12-equal. In tossing the sharps and flats, we decide to play the
7-equal
> instead.
>
> (Jon again: note how GWS says "tossing...", which sounds like "throwing
> out" to me; I don't make this up)
>
> GWS: Personally, I call that meantone, but no one believes me.
>
> Jon: When you say "the music never was in 12..." - *what* music are you
> speaking of?
>
> GWS: Any and every piece of music in the "Western Tone System", which
> probably does not include Machaut and certainly does not include
Partch,
> but probably does include everything the San Diego Symphony
Orchestra plays.
>
> Me again: And that is where it becomes either a joke or simply
something
> for someone to while away the hours. No one could rightly figure that a
> Brahm's sonata or a Chopin etude, not to mention a piece by
Takemitsu could
> have accidentals tossed, reduced to a diatonic 7eq and be even remotely
> considered the same piece of music.

Eytan isn't suggesting we play the 7-equal part, only the 12-equal
part. This wouldn't do anything to piano music on a piano tuned to
12-equal. On the other hand, a Mozart piano sonata might make more
sense in 1/6-comma meantone, which could be viewed as taking a linear
combination of both parts (75% of the 12-equal blended with 25% of the
7-equal) and playing that. Eytan wouldn't regard that as legitimate,
but he doesn't much believe in music history.

Gene,

You are avoiding the specific reference that I quoted from you:

{you wrote...}
> > GWS: Any and every piece of music in the "Western Tone System", which
> > probably does not include Machaut and certainly does not include
>Partch,
> > but probably does include everything the San Diego Symphony
>Orchestra plays.

Please explain how a piece, such as Bruchner, Debussy, Mousorgsky, etc... could be, through the 'tossing out' of the accidentals, be rendered in a 7eq tuning that would NOT render it a completely different piece of music.

Curious,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Gene,
>
> You are avoiding the specific reference that I quoted from you:
>
> {you wrote...}
> > > GWS: Any and every piece of music in the "Western Tone System",
which
> > > probably does not include Machaut and certainly does not include
> >Partch,
> > > but probably does include everything the San Diego Symphony
> >Orchestra plays.
>
> Please explain how a piece, such as Bruchner, Debussy, Mousorgsky,
etc...
> could be, through the 'tossing out' of the accidentals, be rendered
in a
> 7eq tuning that would NOT render it a completely different piece of
music.

As I keep trying to explain, it's not 7eq Eytan proposes to play
things in, but 12eq. No one has been claiming the above.

Consider meantone to be a martini, with 12-equal being the gin and
7-equal being the vermouth. The traditional four parts of gin to one
part of vermouth gives us a 2/11-comma martini. I gave the wrong
formula (one for 112eq) for 1/6-comma--this is actually very dry,
being a mixture of eight parts gin to one part vermouth. Now, you can
claim that straight gin is really just a very, very dry martini, and
in the same way claim that 12-equal is really still meantone, which is
what I do in my analysis of Eytan's system. It doesn't work to claim
that pure vermouth is still a martini, and no one is saying that you
get the same piece of music by rendering it in 7-equal. The 26-equal
version of meantone, which is six parts gin and seven parts vermouth,
is about as far as one can reasonably go.

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>As I keep trying to explain, it's not 7eq Eytan proposes to play things >in, but 12eq. No one has been claiming the above.

Well, sorry. I've tried to follow the thread which - I thought - began with tuning midi files, after throwing out sharps and flats, to 7eq. Mix in the fact that the subject this has continued under as "Improvisation in seven equal" and I apparently have gotten completely off on the wrong understanding. I hope you can appreciate my (sincere) confusion.

I'll bow out, as I'm just adding noise to the signal.

>Consider meantone to be a martini, with 12-equal being the gin and 7-equal >being the vermouth.

For tonight, I'm just going to consider the martini, have one, and call it a day!

Cheers,
Jon

P.S. The first piece on the CD, with the intonations applied to the 'piano' sound, came across at first like a really healthily performed prepared piano piece! I could almost hear the bolts screwed into the strings!!

Dear Jon,

Thanks for the clarifications. I too like armature musicians and
hope to qualify for the honor of being one. My meaning was rather
different. I didn't want to demote Bach et all to a lower level of
perfection. I still don't understand the propriety of
algorithmically transforming their works. I gather you have
reservations also. My question is how did all those sharps and flats
get there if not by the composer? I don't want to be like the boy-
scout who helped an old lady across the street, only to find out she
didn't want to go.

I am as curious as the next person and took my turn at making "apple
sauce" from Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 2, 3rd movement. I down
loaded a coda notation file from

http://www.arts.arizona.edu/midi/openingscrmusfiles.html

(using the search option I was able select from many works). With
Allegro 2001 I remove the sharps and flats. I don't know how to
automate the process yet. At one point deleting an accidental caused
a "spelling" error so be careful. I retuned with Scala and uploaded
the results to the E7 folder. Yum. Yum.

Best wishes,
Jim

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
<jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4739
>
> > if you look at the first graph on this page:
> >
> > http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/eqtemp.htm
> >
> > you'll see the green line labeled meantone passing through the
> > familiar "classical" equal temperaments: 12, 55, 43, 31, 50, 19.
> also
> > along this line can be found unequal meantones like 1/4-comma
> > meantone, 7/26-comma meantone, golden meantone, lucytuning,
> > metameantone, etc. (though they're not labeled, each corresponds
to
> a
> > unique point on this line). anyway, just about any piece between
> 1450
> > and beethoven can be read directly from the score into any of
these
> > meantone tunings
>
> ***This is a fascinating study. I don't remember this visual graph
> of Monzo's being quite this colorful,

well, where were you???

> and I don't remember all the
> temperament names. There's been some addition to this, obviously...
>
> J. Pehrson

yes, there was quite a bit of discussion on all this on the tuning
list this winter. i created those graphs (five different zoom levels
that you can access from that url), and monz has yet to update the
table below it to accord with the correct and useful information:

/tuning/database?
method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=4

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >***Wasn't the period and the music that Paul was considering for
this
> >exercise a bit earlier in period? I don't believe that Brahms and
Chopin
> >were ever considered candidates for this meantone analysis,
correct?? It
> >was more "white note" stuff to begin with, if I understand this
correctly...
>
> Everyone needs to pay attention: my objections to this idea were
what Gene
> originally proposed, NOT what Paul inferred/implied/contributed. I
agree
> with a fair amount of what Paul says.
>
> You know, I think we are getting so far into the theory of this
item that
> it may have a better home. I'm not shutting it down, but let us all
keep
> this in mind...
>
> Congrats on the NY'r mention - I get mine later out here on the
West coast,
> by Pony Express!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

just picked up the new yorker and saw the mention -- cool!

i wanted to say one more thing on this thread before it's shut down.
if you continue the meantone line past 7-equal, you've really
just "bounced off" and continued down the pelogic line, which you can
see has the same slope, only the major and minor consonances have
switch positions. hence, by retuning a common-practice meantone work
beyond 7-equal, it becomes a pelogic work only with minor and major
triads switching places. to my ears, at least, this is one of the
most fascinating transformations one can apply to a piece of western
music, which is in turn about the most expedient way to get to listen
to intricate, modulating music in a pelogic tuning. and it's quite
easy too -- just narrow the generator (i.e., the perfect fifth size
which in turn determines all the scale pitches) from 700 cents down
below 683 cents; i recommend 677 cents. wonder if anyone can upload
such an example fairly readily?

P,

{you wrote...}
>... and monz has yet to update the table below it to accord with the >correct and useful information:

you obviously need your own website.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> to intricate, modulating music in a pelogic tuning. and it's quite
> easy too -- just narrow the generator (i.e., the perfect fifth size
> which in turn determines all the scale pitches) from 700 cents down
> below 683 cents; i recommend 677 cents. wonder if anyone can upload
> such an example fairly readily?

677 (close to the 5-limit rms) is a good 5-limit value, but the
7-limit optimal values are even flatter--13/23 or 678 cents is
5-limit poptimal, and 23/41 at a low low 673 cents is 7-limit
poptimal. Smith is on the case, and will use 677 cents.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> Smith is on the case, and will use 677 cents.

So far Smith is not impressed. I retuned a Scarlatti sonata to
pelogic, and wasn't happy with it, so I tried it on Mozart. If Mozart
is ever hanging around and you need to get rid of him, try this.

The results are in the new pelogic folder. I need a little guidance
here--Paul, could you tell me what you think would be a good piece to
try this on?

>So far Smith is not impressed. I retuned a Scarlatti sonata to
>pelogic, and wasn't happy with it,

I don't know; sounds better than the 81:80->1029:512 transformations
you did a few weeks back. Actually I kinda like it. Can you post
the scl file you used?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >So far Smith is not impressed. I retuned a Scarlatti sonata to
> >pelogic, and wasn't happy with it,
>
> I don't know; sounds better than the 81:80->1029:512 transformations
> you did a few weeks back.

Wow, night and day. Those are very well in tune, and sound wonderful
to me. 81/80->135/128 literally gives me a headache.

Actually I kinda like it. Can you post
> the scl file you used?

Enjoy!

! pelog.scl
!
meantone-->pelogic transform, 677 cent fifth
12
!
215.000000
154.000000
369.000000
308.000000
523.000000
462.000000
677.000000
892.000000
831.000000
1046.000000
985.000000
1200.000000

Hi!

I've been following this thread for quite some time, and even though the title is "Improvisation" so far it has absolutely nothing to do with improvisation at all, simply imposing a new tuning system over old music.

While this is interesting, it is hardly improvisation, at least the way I understand improvisation. Would someone care to explain?

Bonnie *:>

Carl;Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>So far Smith is not impressed. I retuned a Scarlatti sonata to
>pelogic, and wasn't happy with it,

I don't know; sounds better than the 81:80->1029:512 transformations
you did a few weeks back. Actually I kinda like it. Can you post
the scl file you used?

-Carl

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Hello Bonnie,

(I know how you got here... :)

{you wrote...}
>I've been following this thread for quite some time, and even though the >title is "Improvisation" so far it has absolutely nothing to do with >improvisation at all, simply imposing a new tuning system over old music. >While this is interesting, it is hardly improvisation, at least the way I >understand improvisation. Would someone care to explain?

Plain and simple un-tidyness on some of our parts: the thread *originally* started with Robert Walker posting an *actual* improvisation using his wonderful (and personally created) program "Fractal Tune Smithy". Robert likes to set up a tuning, and then the program can either create stuff on it's own or act as a MIDI relay device, allowing you to play the keyboard and it retunes it on the fly.

That is my understanding, from my limited use, of course.

You can find a link to FTS (which I *think* is current), as well as the incredible Scala program, and a couple other widgets for tuning, at:

http://www.microtonal.org/resources.html

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Joathan,

Figured it was something like that. I used to follow the tuning list for quite a while and just recently got back into my interests in these areas and had downloaded SCALA and played with it some but more as a curiousity than acually being something useful personally. Having very good relative pitch, I'm somewhat locked into 12TET but being mostly on synthesizer, I hate to limit my options to just that.

"Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@...> wrote:
Hello Bonnie,

(I know how you got here... :)

{you wrote...}
>I've been following this thread for quite some time, and even though the
>title is "Improvisation" so far it has absolutely nothing to do with
>improvisation at all, simply imposing a new tuning system over old music.
>While this is interesting, it is hardly improvisation, at least the way I
>understand improvisation. Would someone care to explain?

Plain and simple un-tidyness on some of our parts: the thread *originally*
started with Robert Walker posting an *actual* improvisation using his
wonderful (and personally created) program "Fractal Tune Smithy". Robert
likes to set up a tuning, and then the program can either create stuff on
it's own or act as a MIDI relay device, allowing you to play the keyboard
and it retunes it on the fly.

That is my understanding, from my limited use, of course.

You can find a link to FTS (which I *think* is current), as well as the
incredible Scala program, and a couple other widgets for tuning, at:

http://www.microtonal.org/resources.html

Cheers,
Jon

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Bonnie wrote...

> Having very good relative pitch, I'm somewhat locked into 12TET

Just curious, why does having relative pitch lock you into 12TET?

Rick

Hi Rick,

I don't know about anyone else, but the way I hear pitch normally is to attempt to piace to the nearest 1/2 steop in 12 TET . Even if it is "out of tune" it is still a certain pitch or steop within that framework. After the traditional regimen of music theory and ear training that one gets in most batchlor programs, and years of taking off tunes for this gig and that gig, that's just the way my ears work. When listening to non 12TET, I almost experieince a vertigo like sensation trying to conceptualize what my ears hear into traditional pidgeon holes.

Does this explain how it works with me, currently? This is why I am forcing my ears to get more familar with non 12 TET systems. Fortunately, my ears are not exact perfect pitch, which could drive someone nuts if something isn't pefectly in tune, my ears are able to adjust some to accommodate something that is recorded sharp or flat even though it is not exactly referenced to A=440, but still the ears are in analysis mode trying to analyse,catagorize the chord progressions melody and bass lines.

I didn't intend to imply that relative pitch and 12TET are necessarily closely related, necessarily, but in my case, when music is played, my mind does these analysis things. It is to the point that I can only listen to music when concentrating on it specifically, otherwise I put talk radio on which can become blah, blah, blah when I need to concentrate on something else, but when listening to other than 12 TET, my ears are attempting to analyse it to the nearest semitone mentally.

Bonnie *:>

Rick McGowan <rick@...> wrote:
Bonnie wrote...

> Having very good relative pitch, I'm somewhat locked into 12TET

Just curious, why does having relative pitch lock you into 12TET?

Rick

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hi bonnie,

you will find that relative pitch will serve you well as you immerse
yourself in alternate tuning systems. try setting up a 19-equal
and/or 22-equal ear-training program for yourself to start with,
quizzing yourself on harmonic and melodic intervals -- if you spend
enough time with either one (at least a week), you'll find
your "pigeonholes" have adjusted themselves to the new positions. at
least, if your ears are anything like mine.

-paul

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
> <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> > Smith is on the case, and will use 677 cents.
>
> So far Smith is not impressed. I retuned a Scarlatti sonata to
> pelogic, and wasn't happy with it,

well, 3/2s that are 25 cents flat are going to sound awful unless you
choose the timbre carefully. i recall a marimba sound working
wonderfully for this on at least one sound card. p.s. you're going to
have to explain the 7-limit thing on tuning or on tuning-math -- my
original explanation only concerned 5-limit.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> well, 3/2s that are 25 cents flat are going to sound awful unless you
> choose the timbre carefully.

I've been thinking of doing some Csound retunings to pelogic using
overtones shifted to conform to 23-et or something of that sort. Right
now I'm listening to Mozart's clarinet concerto retuned using the 13
limit, and it sounds fine to me, by the way.

Hi Paul,

Are you aware of an ear training program that can be setup for these alternative scales? I will certainly give that a try if such a thing exists. So far most of my personal experiences are with 12TET, quarter tone, and of course "blues thirds" and tempering notes using a synthesizer pitch control to get them where I want them.

Thanks,

Bonnie *:>

wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...> wrote:
hi bonnie,

you will find that relative pitch will serve you well as you immerse
yourself in alternate tuning systems. try setting up a 19-equal
and/or 22-equal ear-training program for yourself to start with,
quizzing yourself on harmonic and melodic intervals -- if you spend
enough time with either one (at least a week), you'll find
your "pigeonholes" have adjusted themselves to the new positions. at
least, if your ears are anything like mine.

-paul

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--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4757

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
> <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> >
> > /makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4739
> >
> > > if you look at the first graph on this page:
> > >
> > > http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/eqtemp.htm
> > >
> > > you'll see the green line labeled meantone passing through the
> > > familiar "classical" equal temperaments: 12, 55, 43, 31, 50,
19.
> > also
> > > along this line can be found unequal meantones like 1/4-comma
> > > meantone, 7/26-comma meantone, golden meantone, lucytuning,
> > > metameantone, etc. (though they're not labeled, each
corresponds
> to
> > a
> > > unique point on this line). anyway, just about any piece
between
> > 1450
> > > and beethoven can be read directly from the score into any of
> these
> > > meantone tunings
> >
> > ***This is a fascinating study. I don't remember this visual
graph
> > of Monzo's being quite this colorful,
>
> well, where were you???
>

***Hi Paul,

No, I was around, and I remember all the different "zooms..." I just
didn't remember this very latest graph with all the temperament
names. Maybe I just missed this particular *final* graphic series of
the lot...

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4758

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
> <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> > Joe,
> >
> > {you wrote...}
> > >***Wasn't the period and the music that Paul was considering for
> this
> > >exercise a bit earlier in period? I don't believe that Brahms
and
> Chopin
> > >were ever considered candidates for this meantone analysis,
> correct?? It
> > >was more "white note" stuff to begin with, if I understand this
> correctly...
> >
> > Everyone needs to pay attention: my objections to this idea were
> what Gene
> > originally proposed, NOT what Paul inferred/implied/contributed.
I
> agree
> > with a fair amount of what Paul says.
> >
> > You know, I think we are getting so far into the theory of this
> item that
> > it may have a better home. I'm not shutting it down, but let us
all
> keep
> > this in mind...
> >
> > Congrats on the NY'r mention - I get mine later out here on the
> West coast,
> > by Pony Express!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
>
> just picked up the new yorker and saw the mention -- cool!
>

***Thanks, Paul. I was particularly happy that the Blackjack scale
got a mention. They spelled my name wrong, but one can't have
everything...

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Bonnie Goodwin

/makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4775

<goodwinbonnie@y...> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Are you aware of an ear training program that can be setup for
these alternative scales? I will certainly give that a try if such a
thing exists. So far most of my personal experiences are with 12TET,
quarter tone, and of course "blues thirds" and tempering notes using
a synthesizer pitch control to get them where I want them.
>

***Hello Bonnie!

I suggest you try to use SCALA, since you already seem to have the
program. It can now do MIDI Relay, which means that you can play
directly from your current MIDI keyboard, and the scales and chords
that you hear come from the Scala scale that you download or create.
There is more info in my *own* "Scala for Dummies" article (a parody,
obviously) on the Scala website.

good luck!

Joseph Pehrson

Hi Joseph,

Thanks for that info, I hadn't download the "Scala for Dummies" but will do so now and attempt to look through in the next few days. I'm in the midst of biz plan hell right now, so fairly much consumed with that effort for the next few weeks, but hope to work on this project as a diversion from playing with numbers and stategies in flying a business!

Bonnie *:>

Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...> wrote:
--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Bonnie Goodwin

/makemicromusic/topicId_4698.html#4775

<goodwinbonnie@y...> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Are you aware of an ear training program that can be setup for
these alternative scales? I will certainly give that a try if such a
thing exists. So far most of my personal experiences are with 12TET,
quarter tone, and of course "blues thirds" and tempering notes using
a synthesizer pitch control to get them where I want them.
>

***Hello Bonnie!

I suggest you try to use SCALA, since you already seem to have the
program. It can now do MIDI Relay, which means that you can play
directly from your current MIDI keyboard, and the scales and chords
that you hear come from the Scala scale that you download or create.
There is more info in my *own* "Scala for Dummies" article (a parody,
obviously) on the Scala website.

good luck!

Joseph Pehrson

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Goodwin" <goodwinbonnie@...>

> Hi Joseph,
>
> Thanks for that info, I hadn't download the "Scala for Dummies"
>but will do so now and attempt to look through in the next few
>days. I'm in the midst of biz plan hell right now, so fairly much
>consumed with that effort for the next few weeks, but hope
>to work on this project as a diversion from playing with numbers
>and stategies in flying a business!

Oh, it's nothing but fun trying to run a business
and also work on music. Until a few days ago,
I've been so swamped with my business that I could
only noodle around on the guitar. Now I have two
pieces unfolding in front of me!

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Hi David,

Glad you can appreciate my situation. I'd much rather be working on the inventive stuff that I am starting the business to do rather than the projections, neglections, dejections and especially from the bankers, the rejections! However, I must keep on keeping on! At least the business is somewhat related to music, being that it deals with architectual acoustics for performance spaces and critical listening environments and the use of computer system in the design and operation of these spaces. Tough topics to put into banker-ese and show profitability.

Bonnie *:>

David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Goodwin" <goodwinbonnie@...>

> Hi Joseph,
>
> Thanks for that info, I hadn't download the "Scala for Dummies"
>but will do so now and attempt to look through in the next few
>days. I'm in the midst of biz plan hell right now, so fairly much
>consumed with that effort for the next few weeks, but hope
>to work on this project as a diversion from playing with numbers
>and stategies in flying a business!

Oh, it's nothing but fun trying to run a business
and also work on music. Until a few days ago,
I've been so swamped with my business that I could
only noodle around on the guitar. Now I have two
pieces unfolding in front of me!

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

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Hi Joseph,

When it rains, it pours.. I need a direct Ethernet connection into my brain, that mght solve the problem! I notice that when I am being extremely creative in designing something, like the acoustical products I'm trying to get the business going to sell, my music and many other things in my life all of a sudden click as well. Never enough time to get it all done! Always exploring the edges of my knowledge is always my best way of moving to the next level. It's just being a part of the Antiphony A Day club!

Bonnie *:>

David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Goodwin" <goodwinbonnie@...>

> Hi Joseph,
>
> Thanks for that info, I hadn't download the "Scala for Dummies"
>but will do so now and attempt to look through in the next few
>days. I'm in the midst of biz plan hell right now, so fairly much
>consumed with that effort for the next few weeks, but hope
>to work on this project as a diversion from playing with numbers
>and stategies in flying a business!

Oh, it's nothing but fun trying to run a business
and also work on music. Until a few days ago,
I've been so swamped with my business that I could
only noodle around on the guitar. Now I have two
pieces unfolding in front of me!

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

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Hi Rob,

{you wrote...}
>Can anyone help me?

Most likely. :)

>I'm new at this - Does a MIDI program exist that will allow me to input >Hertz values and get exact tones with different instrument sounds? Can >anyone recommend some software?

Well, your question is just a *little* vague. You might want to start right out with Scala, which is freeware and an incredible program:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

(note that you didn't indicate what computer platform you are using, but Scala supports all major OS right now)

With Scala you should be able to enter your values and hear them back without any problem. It will also retune midi files for you, and generate and send tuning info to a wide range of hardware and software synths.

If you can be more specific about your usage, say, something like "I've got a scale I want to work with that contains some exact pitches, and I'd like to send that to some midi devices and then write/play with that" someone might be able to come a little closer.

For instance, Gene Smith has lately been taking a huge amount of standard midi files, use Scala to retune them, and then use a program called Audio Compositor (or another called Timidity) to render wave files using SoundFont samples. He's posted recently so you can find his work easily.

HTH,
Jon

Rob Shapiro wrote:

> Can anyone help me? I'm new at this - Does a MIDI program exist that
> will allow me to input Hertz values and get exact tones with different
> instrument sounds? Can anyone recommend some software?

Yes, plenty of such stuff exists. You might start by searching through the
archives of this list. Try programs like Scala to start with. Big Tick
Audio (Rhino), the Midicode.com synth, Anamark and some others software
synths support loadable tuning files. I've posted info on some of these.

I'm sure others will chime in with their favorites. A while back on this
list there was a suggestion that people post info about what they are
using, so one of my postings tells about my setup.

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> For instance, Gene Smith has lately been taking a huge amount of
standard
> midi files, use Scala to retune them, and then use a program called
Audio
> Compositor (or another called Timidity) to render wave files using
> SoundFont samples. He's posted recently so you can find his work
easily.

Try http://www.xenharmony.org

Gene Smith, however, is still not able to get things done the way
he'd like, which is part of the reason he's been doing so much on
retuning twelve notes to the octave, and hasn't put up new versions
of his own compositions or retunings to meantone with much of a range
for the chain of fifths (nothing beyond 13 as yet.)