Keyboard Photos

Hi!

I have now uploaded two photos of my modified keyboard!

Kalle

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho <kalleaho@m...>"
<kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I have now uploaded two photos of my modified keyboard!
>
> Kalle

thanks so much!! i'm wondering, the keys being uneven like that, are
some of them experiencing a bit more friction than they should be?
i'm hoping for an eminently playable result myself, especially now
that i have a fine pianist as my roommate!

thanks again,
paul

Paul,

{you wrote...}
>thanks so much!! i'm wondering, the keys being uneven like that, are some >of them experiencing a bit more friction than they should be? i'm hoping >for an eminently playable result myself, especially now that i have a fine >pianist as my roommate!

You mentioned that you wanted to butcher a Fatar controller board - is it a weighted-key action? Question asked for two reasons: 1 - if so, I would imagine that the project would be a lot more involved than Kalle's kbd, and 2. if it isn't weighted key then Ara is probably going to be able to negotiate it easily.

Also, it certainly looks like Kalle's is one of the many controllers that does not use full-size keys; I'm hoping - for Ara's sake - that yours would.

Looking forward to your pictures. Save up for that leather couch...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho <kalleaho@m...>"
> <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I have now uploaded two photos of my modified keyboard!
> >
> > Kalle
>
> thanks so much!! i'm wondering, the keys being uneven like that,
are
> some of them experiencing a bit more friction than they should be?
> i'm hoping for an eminently playable result myself, especially now
> that i have a fine pianist as my roommate!
>
> thanks again,
> paul

Hi Paul!

Only when those white keys that are adjacent (no black key between)
are played alternately in fast succession I hear some screeching but
this doesn't affect the playability. It doesn't bother me at all.

Kalle

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> thanks so much!! i'm wondering, the keys being uneven like that, are > some of them experiencing a bit more friction than they should be? > i'm hoping for an eminently playable result myself, especially now > that i have a fine pianist as my roommate!

Apparently not! The white keys are slightly more spaced apart then they usually are. So if anything, you'll get less friction. The only problem I have with my keyboard is that all the white keys are Ds, and they have slightly thicker shafts than the other keys. Kalle isn't doing that, and neither does the balanced keyboard site. He says there's a bit of screeching, so we'll have to see if it gets worse with time.

Kalle, would it be okay if I copy these pictures to my website?

Graham

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...>
wrote:

> Kalle, would it be okay if I copy these pictures to my website?

Please do!

Kalle Aho wrote:

> Please do!

Excellent! See

http://x31eq.com/instrum.htm

Your upholstery is much better than mine.

Graham

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >thanks so much!! i'm wondering, the keys being uneven like that,
are some
> >of them experiencing a bit more friction than they should be? i'm
hoping
> >for an eminently playable result myself, especially now that i
have a fine
> >pianist as my roommate!
>
> You mentioned that you wanted to butcher a Fatar controller board -
>is it a
> weighted-key action?

yes.

> Question asked for two reasons: 1 - if so, I would
> imagine that the project would be a lot more involved than Kalle's
>kbd,

hmm . . . we better invite our electrical engineer / drummer friend
over for dinner and *then* open the thing up . . .

> and
> 2. if it isn't weighted key then Ara is probably going to be able
>to
> negotiate it easily.

but it *is* weighted . . . so you think he won't be able to negotiate
it easily? why is that? he plays plenty of piano, though more often
he's banging on the unweighted-keys synthesizer in his room. of
course, playing this beast will bear little resemblance to playing a
familiar keyboard, as any interval spans almost twice the distance
as "normal" . . . so almost everything is going to be played with the
fingers splayed far apart . . .

Paul,

{you wrote...}
>hmm . . . we better invite our electrical engineer / drummer friend
>over for dinner and *then* open the thing up . . .

Yes - do be careful!

> > and
> > 2. if it isn't weighted key then Ara is probably going to be able
> >to
> > negotiate it easily.
>
>but it *is* weighted . . . so you think he won't be able to negotiate
>it easily? why is that? he plays plenty of piano, though more often
>he's banging on the unweighted-keys synthesizer in his room.

No, all I meant is that given two keyboards (of unusual design), one weighted and one not, it would probably be easier for a good pianist to put up with the unweighted version if it didn't really have a good setup. My suspicion is that the weighted action is going to be tricky to alter, and if you end up with neighboring keys 'feeling' different, it is going be more difficult to get used to than an all-spring action.

Just a guess, anyway, and it sounds like Ara has plenty of time behind spongy old synth/organ keys...

Cheers,
Jon

>> Joseph, look again. Paul's keyboard layout is every bit as
>> asymmetrical as the Halberstadt (unlike the "balanced keyboard"
>> posted earlier).
>>
>> -Carl
>
>
>***I hope I'm looking at the right photo. Is it the one in
>the "photos" section??

Yep. http://tinyurl.com/7snn

Now, I'll grant you, there's farther to go before you hit the
asymmetry than on the Halberstadt, so maybe it isn't quite as
asymmetrical, but one should still be able to find his way.
If not, one might enlist a solution proposed by Paul Vandervoort
and others re. the Janko keyboard -- textured keytops.

-Carl

Carl and all...

Someone, I forget who, suggested that the more like other 'things' a new 'thing' is, the more difficult it might be to switch. I tend to think this is true, and that adopting a radically different keyboard might actually be easier for a player. No matter which route, though, we should all remember that if it is to be a musically useful interface, it is going to require time to master. One other comment:

>... so maybe it isn't quite as asymmetrical, but one should still be able >to find his way. If not, one might enlist a solution proposed by Paul >Vandervoort and others re. the Janko keyboard -- textured keytops.

But other than color distinctions (and gradually changing string diameters), a harp player doesn't have anything but a 'blank slate' of strings, and they seem to find their way around just fine (well, the good ones do!) - start by looking, and eventually kinesthetic memory takes over.

So weird that one can't wipe all the memories clear and start all over again, with keyboards of all manner (typing, playing, etc). Hindsight, etc.

Cheers,
Jon

>But other than color distinctions (and gradually changing string
>diameters), a harp player doesn't have anything but a 'blank slate'
>of strings, and they seem to find their way around just fine (well,
>the good ones do!) - start by looking, and eventually kinesthetic
>memory takes over.

Good point; hadn't thought of that!

>So weird that one can't wipe all the memories clear and start all over
>again, with keyboards of all manner (typing, playing, etc). Hindsight,
>etc.

I don't think it's *harder* to learn, but it can *displace* the old
stuff if it's too similar. For example, I've been touchtyping QWERTY
since I was 14 -- switched to Dvorak in 2001, and now can't type
QWERTY at all. But it wasn't harder to learn than QWERTY.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4309.html#4446

> Carl and all...
>
> Someone, I forget who, suggested that the more like other 'things'
a new 'thing' is, the more difficult it might be to switch.

***Dat be me!

I tend to think this is true, and that adopting a radically
different keyboard might actually be easier for a player. No matter
which route, though, we should all remember that if it is to be a
musically useful interface, it is going to require time to master.

***I do agree with Carl and Paul that there *is* obviously asymmetry
in the "adjusted" Halberstadt here, so maybe it's not quite so much
of a problem as the one posted on Graham Breed's page that was just
straight "black and whites" alternating...

But, as I recall, the Bosenquet has *plenty* of asymmetry. I believe
as a pianist (well, more a *former* pianist these days alas... too
much guitar infatuation) I would find it easier and more enjoyable to
learn something *that* radically different than trying to "sweat it
out" with an alteration of the "beloved" keyboard that I've pounded
on for so many years...

J. Pehrson

>we should all remember that if it is to be a
>musically useful interface, it is going to
>require time to master.

Well said. But not what I would expect from
someone who always balks when the subject is
broached...

>But, as I recall, the Bosenquet has *plenty*
>of asymmetry.

You know, I can't remember if I've seen a picture
of Bosanquet's harmonium, and Google's image
search draws a blank, and all the diagrams in the
book are overhead-view, so I can't be *sure*, but
I think it's perfectly symmetrical.

Janko keyboards are perfectly symmetrical.

What do you think of textured keytops?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"
<jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> But, as I recall, the Bosenquet has *plenty* of asymmetry.

it has *complete symmetry*, in that every key has exactly the same
relationship to its neighbors.

> I
believe
> as a pianist (well, more a *former* pianist these days alas... too
> much guitar infatuation) I would find it easier and more enjoyable
to
> learn something *that* radically different than trying to "sweat it
> out" with an alteration of the "beloved" keyboard that I've pounded
> on for so many years...
>
> J. Pehrson

i agree that the added symmetry of the generalized keyboard is
desirable -- even though this appears to contradict what you said
before.

however, at this point it's a lot easier to take a screwdriver to an
existing keyboard and move things around, than to create or purchase
a generalized keyboard.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> >But, as I recall, the Bosenquet has *plenty*
> >of asymmetry.
>
> You know, I can't remember if I've seen a picture
> of Bosanquet's harmonium,

i think joseph is referring to "the Bosanquet", not "Bosanquet's
harmonium". the former was named by wilson after bosanquet, right?

> I think it's perfectly symmetrical.

yup.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4309.html#4451

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > >But, as I recall, the Bosenquet has *plenty*
> > >of asymmetry.
> >
> > You know, I can't remember if I've seen a picture
> > of Bosanquet's harmonium,
>
> i think joseph is referring to "the Bosanquet", not "Bosanquet's
> harmonium". the former was named by wilson after bosanquet, right?
>
> > I think it's perfectly symmetrical.
>
> yup.

***I guess what I'm remembering in the Bosanquet is, then, the
*coloration...* Even if it's symmetrical, I'm remembering seeing
patterns of twos and threes similar to the Halberstadt, if I recall
correctly (??)

In other words, it wasn't just black, white, black, white, black,
white, etc., etc...

no??

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson"

/makemicromusic/topicId_4309.html#4453

<jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_4309.html#4451
>
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
wrote:
> >
> > > >But, as I recall, the Bosenquet has *plenty*
> > > >of asymmetry.
> > >
> > > You know, I can't remember if I've seen a picture
> > > of Bosanquet's harmonium,
> >
> > i think joseph is referring to "the Bosanquet", not "Bosanquet's
> > harmonium". the former was named by wilson after bosanquet, right?
> >
> > > I think it's perfectly symmetrical.
> >
> > yup.
>
>
> ***I guess what I'm remembering in the Bosanquet is, then, the
> *coloration...* Even if it's symmetrical, I'm remembering seeing
> patterns of twos and threes similar to the Halberstadt, if I recall
> correctly (??)
>
> In other words, it wasn't just black, white, black, white, black,
> white, etc., etc...
>
> no??
>
> JP

***Is there a good *photo* of a Bosanquet up someplace, so I can
refresh my memory of it??

Thanks!

JP

>***I guess what I'm remembering in the Bosanquet is, then, the
>*coloration...* Even if it's symmetrical, I'm remembering seeing
>patterns of twos and threes similar to the Halberstadt, if I recall
>correctly (??)
>
>In other words, it wasn't just black, white, black, white, black,
>white, etc., etc...

Yep, that's right; it's usually colored according to the standard
5+7 meantone mapping.

-Carl

>***Is there a good *photo* of a Bosanquet up someplace, so I can
>refresh my memory of it??

George Secor has some diagrams of the generalized-keyboard
Scalatron in the tuning-math files section. There's also
the Wilson archives. Otherwise... did you read my last post?

-Carl

>i think joseph is referring to "the Bosanquet", not "Bosanquet's
>harmonium". the former was named by wilson after bosanquet, right?

That's one way to call it. Though maybe it's better to call
Wilson's keyboards "Wilson's keyboards", since their digitals
lie in a plane and/or are hexagonal.

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
> >we should all remember that if it is to be a
> >musically useful interface, it is going to
> >require time to master.
>
>Well said. But not what I would expect from
>someone who always balks when the subject is
>broached...

ehmmmmm, just making sure: that was me, Jon, making that statement. What subject are you talking balking? That good things require time?

Cheers,
Jon

>>>we should all remember that if it is to be a
>>>musically useful interface, it is going to
>>>require time to master.
//
>
>ehmmmmm, just making sure: that was me, Jon, making
>that statement. What subject are you talking balking?
>That good things require time?

Whoops, Sorry! I thought that was Joseph. A thousand
apologies.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_4309.html#4456

> >***Is there a good *photo* of a Bosanquet up someplace, so I can
> >refresh my memory of it??
>
> George Secor has some diagrams of the generalized-keyboard
> Scalatron in the tuning-math files section. There's also
> the Wilson archives. Otherwise... did you read my last post?
>
> -Carl

***Thanks, Carl. Yes, I just did... So, that meantone patterning is
easier to follow than the alternating black-white key scheme...

JP

>***Thanks, Carl. Yes, I just did... So, that meantone patterning is
>easier to follow than the alternating black-white key scheme...

If you're looking at it...

-C.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_4309.html#4461

> >***Thanks, Carl. Yes, I just did... So, that meantone patterning
is
> >easier to follow than the alternating black-white key scheme...
>
> If you're looking at it...
>
> -C.

***I guess that's a good point, Carl! It's not the "touchy-feely"
asymmetry of the traditional Halberstadt...

jp

>>>So, that meantone patterning is easier to follow than the alternating
>>>black-white key scheme...
>>
>>If you're looking at it...
>
>***I guess that's a good point, Carl! It's not the "touchy-feely"
>asymmetry of the traditional Halberstadt...

Thus, specially-textured keytops...

http://tinyurl.com/7tfr

-Carl