6/11/2002 3:13:00 PM

Err, make that

/makemicromusic/files/7equal/bb33.mid

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

6/5/2003 12:17:52 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Gene/octfx.mid
Uploaded by : jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>
Description : Mend. Octet with xtra perc removed/rechanneled.

You can access this file at the URL

/makemicromusic/files/Gene/octfx.mid

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jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

6/27/2003 4:40:53 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /carl/sssnake.zip
Uploaded by : clumma <ekin@...>
Description : Sssnake progression demo

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/makemicromusic/files/carl/sssnake.zip

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clumma <ekin@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

6/27/2003 4:43:59 PM

>/makemicromusic/files/carl/sssnake.zip

I dunno about you, folks, but the comma shifts in the JI versions
are really Hell Walking. My neighbors are complaining.

Meanwhile, the Alaska temperaments are kicking butt.

-Carl

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

6/27/2003 5:26:52 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /carl/seq.zip
Uploaded by : clumma <ekin@...>
Description : seq files that come with Scala

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clumma <ekin@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

6/27/2003 5:31:11 PM

>/makemicromusic/files/carl/seq.zip

Is there an error on the 3rd chord in ex15.seq?

Madonna doesn't sound right, does it?

Vater90, a Bach piece that, with the soupy vocal timbre on
my synth at least, just happens to "work" with this 7-limit
scale, right out of the box...

-Carl

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

4/30/2004 12:53:23 PM

Hello,

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File : /margo_14_tet_examples.mp3
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Description : Accompanies Margo Schulter's exposition of 14-tet on April 30th, 2004

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akjmicro <akjmicro@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

4/30/2004 12:54:03 PM

Hello,

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

7/23/2004 9:59:01 PM

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File : /P7190513.jpg
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Description : microtonal banjo

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

9/16/2004 10:10:19 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /Chris Bryan's files/progression.mp3
Uploaded by : chrisbryan82 <chrisbryan82@...>
Description : An attempt at a progression of JI chords.

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🔗chrisbryan82 <chrisbryan82@...>

9/16/2004 10:21:36 AM

About that file... What I'd like feedback about is whether it feels
like a "progression," and not just a series of chords. I really think
high-limit scales are great for drone-and-melody textures, but I'm
trying to see if they can also create harmony in the traditional
sense. Any comments are welcome.

For those interested, the ratios are:

3/4 15/4 9/8,
7/8 9/8 21/16,
9/8 21/16 13/8,
9/8 21/16 25/16,
17/16 21/16 25/16,
17/16 21/16 3/2,
17/16 5/4 3/2,
1/1 5/4 3/2 (with 25/16 for color)

Thanks!

-Chris Bryan

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Chris Bryan's files/progression.mp3
> Uploaded by : chrisbryan82 <chrisbryan82@s...>
> Description : An attempt at a progression of JI chords.
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
/makemicromusic/files/Chris%20Bryan%27s%20files/progression.mp3

>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> chrisbryan82 <chrisbryan82@s...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

9/16/2004 7:30:06 PM

Hello Chris,

{you wrote...}
>About that file... What I'd like feedback about is whether it feels like a >"progression," and not just a series of chords.

I didn't have it together to have the chords you printed in front of me as I listened. What I can offer is that the opening section did give the impression of one chord following another, not awkwardly but also not what one might think of (or feel) as a progression; however, starting around the 1:00 mark you began using suspensions, and using the longer notes to bridge over to a new harmonization seemed to really change the terrain. I don't know if this would always work, but...

...what I'm finding when I'm working with new tunings (or subsets of a tuning) is that it takes me a while to find things that somehow seem to have an 'organic' pull to it. Others like to consult charts, tea leaves, whatever :) but I tend to rely upon both my ears as well as a sense of adventure. I find that working through a tuning (that I might have already started the process with a design or objective choice) by playing and discovering is actually one of the real joys of going away from 12.

It is so hard for anyone with an engrained tuning 'culture' to find new magnetic pulls that work on us the same way the old ones do, and especially if we are trying to avoid (or at least dropping them when they pop up) those progressions that seem too much like new clothes on an old mannequin. And your example is pointing out how often, as I am exploring a tuning, that I utilize suspensions to try movements from chord to chord.

Hope this is of some value...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Jacob <jbarton@...>

9/17/2004 12:42:23 AM

Hey! Great JI progression! I enjoyed particularly the warped triad of 17:21:25 (the fifth
one). I thought of two ways to try and make the harmony progress more. I saw the iffiest
thing the first three chords, triads moving up by quasi-thirds. In "traditional voice-
leading" which I happen to be learning these days, the "bass" rarely moves up by thirds,
and the harmony typically doesn't either. So your first 3 chords:

> 3/4 15/4 9/8,
> 7/8 9/8 21/16,
> 9/8 21/16 13/8,

I tried taking some of the notes up an octave to make it less similar motion and got:
9/8 3/2 15/8,
9/8 21/16 7/4,
9/8 21/16 13/8...

Which is interesting, although it makes the highest voice move down 3 times in a row.
Then I tried:
3/4 15/16 9/8,
7/8 9/8 *3/2*,
9/8 21/16 13/8...

Which I kind of like. What do you think? I posted a file of the two at

/makemicromusic/files/
Chris%20Bryan%27s%20files/

~jacob

🔗ZipZapPooZoo <chris@...>

9/17/2004 7:44:10 AM

> About that file... What I'd like feedback about is whether it feels
> like a "progression," and not just a series of chords. I really
think
> high-limit scales are great for drone-and-melody textures, but
I'm
> trying to see if they can also create harmony in the traditional
> sense. Any comments are welcome.

I think any time you have common tones, stepwise motions, lack
of massive leaps, and enough time for people to digest a
harmonic move, you have a "progression". So it looks like you
qualify here. . .

I too enjoyed the latter part of it the best, as dissonant queasy
chords resolve somewhat unexpectedly to consonance (so that
you're thinking, "Hey, I didn't know there was a consonant interval
in the previous chord. . . and now it is revealed in all its glory!")

And that 25/16. . . . very sweet.

>
> For those interested, the ratios are:
>
> 3/4 15/4 9/8,
> 7/8 9/8 21/16,
> 9/8 21/16 13/8,
> 9/8 21/16 25/16,
> 17/16 21/16 25/16,
> 17/16 21/16 3/2,
> 17/16 5/4 3/2,
> 1/1 5/4 3/2 (with 25/16 for color)
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Chris Bryan
>
>

🔗chrisbryan82 <melandchris@...>

9/17/2004 9:04:38 AM

I do like the modifications! I had planned to experiment with the inversions/voice leading
myself. It's interesting to see other people's reactions agreeing with each other and with
my own.

I also sympathize with Jon's method of experimenting with a tuning. However, this is
sometimes confusing because of a lack of an intuitive keyboard mapping. Do you attach
numbers or colors to the keys, or just play with it long enough to get used to it? Unless,
of course, you build a whole new insturment, Partch-style ;)

-Chris

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jbarton@r...> wrote:
> Hey! Great JI progression! I enjoyed particularly the warped triad of 17:21:25 (the fifth
> one). I thought of two ways to try and make the harmony progress more. I saw the
iffiest
> thing the first three chords, triads moving up by quasi-thirds. In "traditional voice-
> leading" which I happen to be learning these days, the "bass" rarely moves up by thirds,
> and the harmony typically doesn't either. So your first 3 chords:
>
> > 3/4 15/4 9/8,
> > 7/8 9/8 21/16,
> > 9/8 21/16 13/8,
>
> I tried taking some of the notes up an octave to make it less similar motion and got:
> 9/8 3/2 15/8,
> 9/8 21/16 7/4,
> 9/8 21/16 13/8...
>
> Which is interesting, although it makes the highest voice move down 3 times in a row.
> Then I tried:
> 3/4 15/16 9/8,
> 7/8 9/8 *3/2*,
> 9/8 21/16 13/8...
>
> Which I kind of like. What do you think? I posted a file of the two at
>
> /makemicromusic/files/
> Chris%20Bryan%27s%20files/
>
> ~jacob

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

9/17/2004 9:46:45 AM

Chris,

{you wrote...}
>I also sympathize with Jon's method of experimenting with a >tuning. However, this is sometimes confusing because of a lack of an >intuitive keyboard mapping.

Not only sometimes, but most times. :)

>Do you attach numbers or colors to the keys, or just play with it long >enough to get used to it?

At this point, more the latter; if I were to ever settle on one or a small number of tunings that I would stay with for a long while (and I don't rule it out), I am sure I would do *something* to the keyboard to aid in playing/composition. I know Joe Pehrson could recount his stories of kbd markup during his use of tunings.

>Unless, of course, you build a whole new insturment, Partch-style ;)

Been there! (ask for details off-list...)

Cheers,
Jon

🔗idealordid <jeff@...>

9/17/2004 10:31:16 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "chrisbryan82"
<melandchris@g...> wrote:
> I do like the modifications! I had planned to experiment with the
inversions/voice leading
> myself. It's interesting to see other people's reactions agreeing
with each other and with
> my own.
>
> I also sympathize with Jon's method of experimenting with a tuning.
However, this is
> sometimes confusing because of a lack of an intuitive keyboard
mapping. Do you attach
> numbers or colors to the keys, or just play with it long enough to
get used to it? Unless,
> of course, you build a whole new insturment, Partch-style ;)
>

I started playing 19ET a few months ago and have finally gotten
comfortable with one tonality, C. ;)

I improvise most of my melodies so its just an inherent part of
getting some work done. Got to get it under your fingers!

jeff harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

9/17/2004 10:56:10 AM

Jeff,

{you wrote...}
>I improvise most of my melodies so its just an inherent part of getting >some work done. Got to get it under your fingers!

This is one area (I won't say how many others there are <grin>) that you and I agree on. However, one of the things that I've found most fascinating since MMM started was the seemingly endless variety of ways that people end up making music, and a fair number of them include never even touching a (music) keyboard.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and that goes both for 'our' way and other ways. I still feel that on the continuum between crafting/discovering/analyzing a tuning and having a finished piece of music, the more you want the right end of that continuum to be a truly realized artistic creation, the more one needs to investigate the musical tools for creating it. Keyboards and playing are certainly strongly in that camp.

Frankly - and I imagine you'd agree (but I have a vivid imagination) - all that really matters is how the piece affects a listener. If you care about that, you do whatever you need to make that affectation as positive as possible.

Cheers,
Jon

P.S. Not microtonal (who cares?), but I've been enjoying Delta Band Resonator quite a bit...

🔗idealordid <jeff@...>

9/17/2004 11:09:23 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >I improvise most of my melodies so its just an inherent part of
getting
> >some work done. Got to get it under your fingers!
>
> This is one area (I won't say how many others there are <grin>) that
you
> and I agree on. However, one of the things that I've found most
fascinating
> since MMM started was the seemingly endless variety of ways that
people end
> up making music, and a fair number of them include never even
touching a
> (music) keyboard.
>
> Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and that goes both for
'our' way
> and other ways. I still feel that on the continuum between
> crafting/discovering/analyzing a tuning and having a finished piece of
> music, the more you want the right end of that continuum to be a truly
> realized artistic creation, the more one needs to investigate the
musical
> tools for creating it. Keyboards and playing are certainly strongly
in that
> camp.
>

Creating music without keyboards for a piano player can be hugely
liberating! ;) I made a whole album, Obliterature in 1991-93 with a
mouse and an Amiga 1000 program, MidiLyr. I still feel I did things
in that piece I haven't quite come near to. I've got a tablet and
recently bought a Essential Reality P5 glove,

http://www.essentialreality.com/p5_glove.asp

to try and get back to that type of composition/improvisation, but its
just so painful learning a new instrument and getting through that
'Boy do I suck' phase.

> Frankly - and I imagine you'd agree (but I have a vivid imagination)
- all
> that really matters is how the piece affects a listener. If you care
about
> that, you do whatever you need to make that affectation as positive as
> possible.
>

Absolutely, what does it matter how it was created. I think this
problem though is really holding microtonal music back. They chords I
can reach in 19ET are nowhere near big enough. I'm writing for 2
pianos a bit, but it just gets awkward expecting attacks to be
simultaneous enough to come off as chords. Learning a new keyboard
technique is a pain! If I could even afford a 19ET keyboard.

> P.S. Not microtonal (who cares?), but I've been enjoying Delta Band
> Resonator quite a bit...

Thanks man! That made my day. That piece was a slow and painful
piece to write and I still have to get off my ass to polish up the
score.

jeff harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

🔗AMiltonF@...

9/17/2004 7:38:35 PM

In a message dated 9/17/04 2:11:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jeff@... writes:

>...recently bought a Essential Reality P5 glove,
>
>http://www.essentialreality.com/p5_glove.asp

awesome! ...free SDK too! ..doesn't get much better than that. Thx for
the link.

Regards,
Andy F.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗idealordid <jeff@...>

9/18/2004 6:36:19 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, AMiltonF@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/17/04 2:11:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jeff@p... writes:
>
>
> >...recently bought a Essential Reality P5 glove,
> >
> >http://www.essentialreality.com/p5_glove.asp
>
> awesome! ...free SDK too! ..doesn't get much better than that.
Thx for
> the link.
>

Yo... http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=P5

$12.50! I bought 3... LOL...

This page consolidates most Glove music apps:
http://www.audiomulch.com/simulus/p5glove/

Enjoy! It's a bit of a pain to get it to do what you want musically,
but I found Nicholas Fournel's MIDI controller app to be pretty
interesting.

jeff harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - new music
http://netnewmusic.net - new music portal
http://beepsnort.org - new music blog

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

9/18/2004 8:10:51 AM

{you wrote...}
>Yo... http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=P5
>
>$12.50! I bought 3... LOL...

Oh man, I don't wanna think about the use of the "Third Glove"...

But seriously, I haven't ever thought about this kind of controller before, but it sure seems like price isn't a barrier. Being a percussionist it would seem like one could get some very natural things going.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

9/18/2004 9:56:56 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"

/makemicromusic/topicId_42.html#7527
> At this point, more the latter; if I were to ever settle on one or
a small
> number of tunings that I would stay with for a long while (and I
don't rule
> it out), I am sure I would do *something* to the keyboard to aid in
> playing/composition. I know Joe Pehrson could recount his stories
of kbd
> markup during his use of tunings.
>

***Yes, my full sized "dummy" keyboard is marked in Blackjack
notation of the Sagittal-Wilson sort. It's the only alternate tuning
I use at the present time... and still am trying to get a grip on
it...

best,

🔗AMiltonF@...

9/18/2004 12:52:21 PM

In a message dated 9/18/04 10:16:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jeff@... writes:

>> In a message dated 9/17/04 2:11:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> jeff@p... writes:
>>
>>
>> >...recently bought a Essential Reality P5 glove,
>> >
>> >http://www.essentialreality.com/p5_glove.asp
>>
>> awesome! ...free SDK too! ..doesn't get much better than that.
>Thx for
>> the link.
>>
>
>Yo... http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=P5
>
>$12.50! I bought 3... LOL...

>This page consolidates most Glove music apps:
>http://www.audiomulch.com/simulus/p5glove/
>
>Enjoy! It's a bit of a pain to get it to do what you want musically,
>but I found Nicholas Fournel's MIDI controller app to be pretty
>interesting.

Already got it at Overstock.com for twice as much [oh well]. Still a great
deal compared with orig retail of $99. It'll be perfect for the app I'm
writing.

Andy F.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

10/3/2004 3:56:18 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /DJWolf/17tetexample.MID
Uploaded by : danieljameswolf <djwolf1@...>
Description : Example of 17tet

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/DJWolf/17tetexample.MID

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

danieljameswolf <djwolf1@...>

🔗danieljameswolf <djwolf1@...>

10/3/2004 4:00:38 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /DJWolf/17tetexample.MID
> Uploaded by : danieljameswolf <djwolf1@a...>
> Description : Example of 17tet
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
/makemicromusic/files/DJWolf/17tetexample.MID

>
>

This file is playable through InTun with the attached txt file or midi
relay with the attached tun file. (I don't have midi relay myself, so
I cannot vouch for the tun file).

This is an impromptu prelude and invention in 17tet, posted to learn
how midi files are received in this community. I'll remove it in a
week or so.

Best regards,

Daniel Wolf

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

10/3/2004 12:47:04 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /DJWolf/14tetexample.MID
Uploaded by : danieljameswolf <djwolf1@...>
Description : Example in 14tet, full keyboard midi requires .tun or .txt files found in the same folder for playback.

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/makemicromusic/files/DJWolf/14tetexample.MID

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danieljameswolf <djwolf1@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

12/29/2004 11:34:54 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /HaroldFortuin/EndSpecWeb-MedQuality.mov
Uploaded by : harold_fortuin <harold@...>
Description : 20-tone live JI duet excerpt

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/makemicromusic/files/HaroldFortuin/EndSpecWeb-MedQuality.mov

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Regards,

8/25/2006 10:51:44 AM

>/makemicromusic/files/Etude%20for%20Two%2
>0Pianos%20in%2017edo.pdf

That looks like a quality piece of music, JL. -C.

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

6/16/2008 9:51:54 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Raed's music/A hint from those who passed away .mp3
Uploaded by : raedkhashoukgi <raedkhashoukgi@...>
Description : Wilson 31-Tone in a kind of hiphoppish flair.

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raedkhashoukgi <raedkhashoukgi@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

11/18/2008 2:30:37 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Bucht_Huovinen_CIM04_proceedings.pdf
Uploaded by : robertthomasmartin <robertthomasmartin@...>
Description : 19tet harmonic experiments.

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Bucht_Huovinen_CIM04_proceedings.pdf

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robertthomasmartin <robertthomasmartin@...>

🔗robert thomas martin <robertthomasmartin@...>

11/18/2008 2:44:20 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Bucht_Huovinen_CIM04_proceedings.pdf
> Uploaded by : robertthomasmartin <robertthomasmartin@...>
> Description : 19tet harmonic experiments.
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
/makemicromusic/files/Bucht_Huovinen_CIM0
4_proceedings.pdf
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
>
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htm
lfiles
>
> Regards,
>
> robertthomasmartin <robertthomasmartin@...>
>

From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
actually prefer 22 and 100tets. I uploaded this file because it
can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
of one particular study of equal temperament.

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

11/18/2008 7:51:28 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
>
/makemicromusic/files/Bucht_Huovinen_CIM0%204_proceedings.pdf

Very interesting paper. Thank you, Robert!

> From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
> actually prefer 22 and 100tets.

The statement above is really required, otherwise you could destroy
your reputation... ;-D

> I uploaded this file because it
> can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
> of one particular study of equal temperament.
>

Does anyone know that refered text by J.Yasser? I find strange the
selection of 19-tet consonant intervals be 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 15
and 16. The nearly pure minor-third (~5:6) was excluded!

Best,
Hudson Lacerda

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

11/18/2008 7:58:20 AM

Let me be the devil's advocate - is 100 tet any different from adaptive tuning in practice?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "hfmlacerda" <hfmlacerda@...>

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:51:28
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MMM] Re: New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
>
/makemicromusic/files/Bucht_Huovinen_CIM0%204_proceedings.pdf

Very interesting paper. Thank you, Robert!

> From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
> actually prefer 22 and 100tets.

The statement above is really required, otherwise you could destroy
your reputation... ;-D

> I uploaded this file because it
> can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
> of one particular study of equal temperament.
>

Does anyone know that refered text by J.Yasser? I find strange the
selection of 19-tet consonant intervals be 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 15
and 16. The nearly pure minor-third (~5:6) was excluded!

Best,
Hudson Lacerda

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@...>

11/18/2008 9:33:40 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hfmlacerda" <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
> >
>
/makemicromusic/files/Bucht_Huovinen_CIM0
%204_proceedings.pdf
>
> Very interesting paper. Thank you, Robert!
>
> > From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
> > actually prefer 22 and 100tets.
>
> The statement above is really required, otherwise you could destroy
> your reputation... ;-D
>
> > I uploaded this file because it
> > can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
> > of one particular study of equal temperament.
> >
>
> Does anyone know that refered text by J.Yasser? I find strange the
> selection of 19-tet consonant intervals be 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 15
> and 16. The nearly pure minor-third (~5:6) was excluded!
>
> Best,
> Hudson Lacerda

I read the first edition of Yasser's book around 45 years ago, and I
also found his conclusions quite strange.

Rather than try to locate the book and wade through its considerable
amount of text (which would IMO be a waste of your time & money), I
recommend that you read chapter 11 of Joel Mandelbaum's 19-tone
doctoral thesis, which gives a very good summary of (and commentary
on) Yasser's ideas:

http://anaphoria.com/mjm11.pdf

--George

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

11/18/2008 9:46:26 AM

> From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
> actually prefer 22 and 100tets. I uploaded this file because it
> can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
> of one particular study of equal temperament.

Robert, thanks for sharing the file. But don't you think it would
have been more appropriate on the tuning list, where theory
discussions are more in-scope?

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

11/18/2008 9:47:17 AM

>Let me be the devil's advocate - is 100 tet any different from
>adaptive tuning in practice?

Sure. 100-ET gives you 12-cent steps, which are huge compared
to the adjustments that are often made in adaptive tuning.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

11/18/2008 10:14:29 AM

Nevermind, I see you crossposted there. Robert Robert Robert,
what are we going to do with you?

-Carl

At 09:46 AM 11/18/2008, you wrote:
>> From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
>> actually prefer 22 and 100tets. I uploaded this file because it
>> can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
>> of one particular study of equal temperament.
>
>Robert, thanks for sharing the file. But don't you think it would
>have been more appropriate on the tuning list, where theory
>discussions are more in-scope?
>
>-Carl
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

11/18/2008 1:16:57 PM

There is something misleading in the text here. Yasser's idea of harmony was based on a pattern of scales developing from 5 to 7 to 12 to 19 with the harmonies being consistent within the scale pattern, not on the harmonics series per se. ( this was the clue to Wilson developing the scale tree). Yasser's choices were not what we might consider the most consonant. He believed that as we progress we would likewise prefer more dissonance or hear them as consonance.

funny since Plomp rates the 6/5 way to high in my opinion.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

hfmlacerda wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, "robert thomas martin"
> >
> /makemicromusic/files/Bucht_Huovinen_CIM0%204_proceedings.pdf > </makemicromusic/files/Bucht_Huovinen_CIM0%204_proceedings.pdf>
>
> Very interesting paper. Thank you, Robert!
>
> > From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
> > actually prefer 22 and 100tets.
>
> The statement above is really required, otherwise you could destroy
> your reputation... ;-D
>
> > I uploaded this file because it
> > can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
> > of one particular study of equal temperament.
> >
>
> Does anyone know that refered text by J.Yasser? I find strange the
> selection of 19-tet consonant intervals be 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 15
> and 16. The nearly pure minor-third (~5:6) was excluded!
>
> Best,
> Hudson Lacerda
>
> .
>
>

🔗robert thomas martin <robertthomasmartin@...>

11/18/2008 3:33:31 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Nevermind, I see you crossposted there. Robert Robert Robert,
> what are we going to do with you?
>
> -Carl
>
> At 09:46 AM 11/18/2008, you wrote:
> >> From Robert. I didn't upload this file because I favor 19tet. I
> >> actually prefer 22 and 100tets. I uploaded this file because it
> >> can serve as a good model for describing the experimental method
> >> of one particular study of equal temperament.
> >
> >Robert, thanks for sharing the file. But don't you think it would
> >have been more appropriate on the tuning list, where theory
> >discussions are more in-scope?
> >
> >-Carl
> >
>
From Robert. The crosspost you refer to is "An analysis (in cents)
of the Jiahu bone flutes".

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

11/18/2008 3:37:46 PM

where is this file, don't see it

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

robert thomas martin wrote:
>
>
> From Robert. The crosspost you refer to is "An analysis (in cents)
> of the Jiahu bone flutes".
>
>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

11/18/2008 3:47:33 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Ant0780769.pdf
Uploaded by : robertthomasmartin <robertthomasmartin@...>
Description : Analysis (in cents) of the Jiahu Flutes

10/8/2009 4:28:34 PM

Marcel,

Good progress. You are improving. It is correct in most
places, but there are still several points where it is incorrect.
I don't believe there are any comma pumps in this piece, so it
should be quite possible to tune in JI. You're almost there-
don't give up!

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Marcel/Beethoven_WoO30-Andante_(DeVelde-
> JI)_tromb1.mp3
> Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@...>
> Description : Finished Drei Equali Andante in DeVelde-JI
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/Marcel
> /Beethoven_WoO30-Andante_%28DeVelde-JI%29_tromb1.mp3
>
> Regards,
>
> mdevelde <m.develde@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 4:56:02 PM

Finished version :)

Can't yet prove every note with 1005 certainty, but it sounds perfect to me
and I can't see anything wrong with it theoretically either, I've checked
every single note many times now.
Perhaps one day when I've progressed my theory and practical application of
it and have developed a deeper method of analysis, I can still find a note
to correct, but this I won't be able to do for probably a long time, so for
now this is the best I can do.

Rendered it as an mp3 so everybody can hear it clearly.
Will somewhere in the future find a better sound but right now this cheesy
trombone sound is the best sound I know to hear both melody and harmony.
The sound does have a slight virbato, but it only kicks in after half a
second or so.
I put on a little bit of reverb as I've found it doesn't cover anything but
adds to the perception of pitch, a completely dry sound somehow detracts
slightly.

The JI version contains 5 dissonant 27/20 fourths.
2 of these are very clearly audible as they appear in an inversion due to a
diatonic progression of the bass, and make a 40/27 ratio with another tone
(in iversion, it's a dissonant fourth not a fifth)
These 2 places of the dissonant fourth are the absolute worst case scenario
/ most dissonant example possible of the dissonant fourth.
Perhaps this is also the reason why the bass can best move in larger
consonant intervals, not diatonically, because it will invert intervals when
it moves diatonically making them less consonant.

I've also rendered the 4 individual trombone tracks seperately so one can
hear the individual melodies very clearly.
Here you'll find the audible proof that in correct JI all the melodies stay
100% intact (and are far more expressive than 12tet where the melodies are
out of tune)
In correct JI there is no trade-off between melody and harmony. Both are
perfect at thesame time, the magic of music.
You'll find the audio renderings of the melodies at www.develde.net

Also rendered a 12tet version with the exact same settings.
It floats all over the place very clearly. Recomended comparison to the
DeVelde-JI version.
Also uploaded a pitch bend tuning MIDI and a Midi Tuning Standard tuned MIDI
of the DeVelde-JI version, and a MIDI version of 12tet for comparison.
Also the Scala sequence file, and a HTML transcription of the whole piece in
DeVelde-JI including chords from the bass and clear indication of where the
5 dissonant 4th occur.
I didn't write the chords from the fundamental bass though as I've found
that I disagree with the fundamental bass as it is explained by Rameau.
All are available at www.develde.net

Should anybody wish to try out their own ideas in tuning and or think they
can improve on the piece, please do.
This piece is very good at exposing errors in any tuning theorie.

Infact if you think this version is somehow not correct and think you can do
better with a temperament, adaptive-ji, extended-ji or anything else..
I'll challenge you to a tuning challenge :)
If you can produce a version that in fair comparison to my version wins in a
poll on this list and the JustIntonation list I'll pay you $20 by paypal to
buy some beers and celebrate :-)
Fair comparison means you'll have to use my exact midi (12tet) and retune it
to your wishes and send me the file back as a Scala sequence file.
I'll then render it in the exact same way as my own file, and will also
render all 4 track melodies individually like my own version.
The end result beeing judged on harmony, melody, how good and in tune it
sounds overall and anything else the voters see fit.
I'll then start a poll on the MMM and/or JustIntonation lists and if your
version wins I'll send you the money :)

Please discuss this piece and my comma solution only on this list or the
JustIntonation list, as I'm no longer a member of the tuning list.
Carl has banned me from the tuning list after a silly offlist discussion
about this very piece (he sent me a very out of tune JI version of his own
of the beginning of this piece, maybe I'll post it later if someone wants a
laugh).
Apparently Carl can't stand people who disagree with him, and this goes
especially for JI, ruining JI discussions for everybody on the tuning list
where all JI discussions can only end in flames thanks to Carl and some of
his girlfriends like Aaron.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 4:57:43 PM

>
> Marcel,
>
> Good progress. You are improving. It is correct in most
> places, but there are still several points where it is incorrect.
> I don't believe there are any comma pumps in this piece, so it
> should be quite possible to tune in JI. You're almost there-
> don't give up!
>
> -Carl
>

Carl..
Where you get the nerve to still talk to me i don't know.
But your message is pathetic and wrong.
Please don't reply to my messages anymore.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 5:04:14 PM

C'mon, Marcel, I meant everything I said. Trying to be
constructive.

-Carl

At 04:57 PM 10/8/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Marcel,
>>
>> Good progress. You are improving. It is correct in most
>> places, but there are still several points where it is incorrect.
>> I don't believe there are any comma pumps in this piece, so it
>> should be quite possible to tune in JI. You're almost there-
>> don't give up!
>>
>> -Carl
>>
>
>Carl..
>Where you get the nerve to still talk to me i don't know.
>But your message is pathetic and wrong.
>Please don't reply to my messages anymore.
>
>Marcel
>www.develde.net
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 5:17:43 PM

>
> C'mon, Marcel, I meant everything I said. Trying to be
> constructive.
>
> -Carl
>

Carl,

I'm usually a very forgiving person. And I put arguments and bad feelings
behind me very easily.
But you've gone too far.
You've talked condensending to me too often, you've tried to make me look
rediculous too often.
You've first moderated me and then BANNED me from the tuning list after a
personal OFFLIST argument which YOU started about this very piece.
You've also strongly outspoken your disagreements to what I'm doing often
enough to not be able to switch all of a sudden to "cheering" at me to
continue and try to save your hide or something like that by saying oh i
don't think it has a comma problem btw (which is crazy, it has many many
comma problems, the most obvious and undeniable one at measure 20 to 25).

Now even with all this I can put it behind me.
And I can belief your message is a sort of hand out to me for friendlyness
again perhaps.
But it is too little and too out of place.
I'm still very mad about what you did and expect an apology and unbanning
from the tuning list.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 5:34:14 PM

Pfff.
Ok got my calm back :)
Needed to blow a lot of steam apparently.
Probably also the stress of tuning drei equali and solving the comma problem
in general.

Sorry for losing it like that. Also apology to the list for all having to
read this (though some will find it entertaining no doubt haha)
I actually really appreciate your constructive message.
Also don't need an apology like I said in my previous message, and can put
the past behind me starting now.
I've unintentionally behaved bad myself on the tuning list often enough and
give my apology for this.

Marcel
www.develde.net

Carl,
>
> I'm usually a very forgiving person. And I put arguments and bad feelings
> behind me very easily.
> But you've gone too far.
> You've talked condensending to me too often, you've tried to make me look
> rediculous too often.
> You've first moderated me and then BANNED me from the tuning list after a
> personal OFFLIST argument which YOU started about this very piece.
> You've also strongly outspoken your disagreements to what I'm doing often
> enough to not be able to switch all of a sudden to "cheering" at me to
> continue and try to save your hide or something like that by saying oh i
> don't think it has a comma problem btw (which is crazy, it has many many
> comma problems, the most obvious and undeniable one at measure 20 to 25).
>
> Now even with all this I can put it behind me.
> And I can belief your message is a sort of hand out to me for friendlyness
> again perhaps.
> But it is too little and too out of place.
> I'm still very mad about what you did and expect an apology and unbanning
> from the tuning list.
>
> Marcel
> www.develde.net
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 5:37:15 PM

Marcel wrote:

>I'm usually a very forgiving person. And I put arguments and bad feelings
>behind me very easily.
>But you've gone too far.
>You've talked condensending to me too often, you've tried to make me look
>rediculous too often.
>You've first moderated me and then BANNED me from the tuning list

You're not banned. You unsubscribed. You were moderated.

>after a personal OFFLIST argument which YOU started about this
>very piece.

Which I started? That's not how it reads to me... maybe try reading
through it again.

>You've also strongly outspoken your disagreements to what I'm doing often
>enough to not be able to switch all of a sudden to "cheering" at me to
>continue and try to save your hide or something like that by saying oh i
>don't think it has a comma problem btw (which is crazy, it has many many
>comma problems, the most obvious and undeniable one at measure 20 to 25).

I'd be happy to stand corrected, if you care to post a score fragment.

>Now even with all this I can put it behind me.
>And I can belief your message is a sort of hand out to me for friendlyness
>again perhaps.
>But it is too little and too out of place.
>I'm still very mad about what you did and expect an apology and unbanning
>from the tuning list.

I have no problem making anything public. What did I do wrong?

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 5:40:45 PM

OK then. Now, I don't hear any comma pumps in this piece, but
I'm no Peter Parizek. Can you post a score fragment. We've
often used ASCII in the past

G---G
E...D
C...G etc.

where ties are shown with dashes and otherwise dots are used.

-Carl

At 05:34 PM 10/8/2009, you wrote:
>Pfff.
>Ok got my calm back :)
>Needed to blow a lot of steam apparently.
>Probably also the stress of tuning drei equali and solving the comma problem
>in general.
>
>Sorry for losing it like that. Also apology to the list for all having to
>read this (though some will find it entertaining no doubt haha)
>I actually really appreciate your constructive message.
>Also don't need an apology like I said in my previous message, and can put
>the past behind me starting now.
>I've unintentionally behaved bad myself on the tuning list often enough and
>give my apology for this.
>
>Marcel
>www.develde.net
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 5:46:06 PM

>
> You're not banned. You unsubscribed. You were moderated.

Your last email to me said that I should consider myself banned from the
tuning list, to which I replied that you can't ban me because I allready
unsubscribed hehe.
It's funny now in retrorespect, but glad to hear I'm not banned and can put
everything behind me now :)

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 6:10:45 PM

>
> OK then. Now, I don't hear any comma pumps in this piece, but
> I'm no Peter Parizek. Can you post a score fragment. We've
> often used ASCII in the past
>
> G---G
> E...D
> C...G etc.
>
> where ties are shown with dashes and otherwise dots are used.
>
Petr actually did a full version of the piece based on one of my full
versions.He corrected several things in my older (wrong) version according
to classic 5-limit JI and he did a syntonic comma shift in a melody in
measure 23.
I personally can't agree to Petr's version, I do not think it sounds right
in many places to me.
The only thing I could agree with for some time in his tuning was of measure
35 to 37, it was something I had tried before but had abandonen for an even
worse solution. But I finally worked out that part too (was tricky part) and
now all comma related parts in my version are different to Petr's classic
5-limit JI version.
I'll send an email to Petr to ask if he's ok with me rendering and posting
his version as the example of classic 5-limit JI.

As for the most obvious comma problem in measure 23:

C(8/9) G(4/3) E(20/9) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2 5/3

C(8/9) F#(512/405) D#(512/243) A(80/27) 1/1 32/27 64/45 5/3

A#(4/5) G(4/3) D(2/1) A#(16/5) 1/1 5/4 5/3

A#(4/5) D(2/1) F(12/5) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2 5/3

C(8/9) C(16/9) F(12/5) G(8/3) 1/1 27/20 3/2 <- dissonant fourth

C(16/9) C(16/9) E(20/9) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2

C(16/9) E(20/9) F#(1024/405) A(80/27) 1/1 5/4 64/45 5/3

A#(8/5) D(2/1) G(8/3) A#(16/5) 1/1 5/4 5/3

A#(4/5) G(4/3) D(2/1) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 5/3

A(3/4) A(3/2) D(2/1) F(12/5) 1/1 4/3 8/5

btw also notice the amazing 1/1 5/4 64/45 6/3 chord! :)

The full transcription is on my website, but I agree it's kinda unreadable
for a quick glance.
I'll make one with note names soon.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 6:13:20 PM

> btw also notice the amazing 1/1 5/4 64/45 6/3 chord! :)

uhh that should be 1/1 5/4 64/45 5/3 offcourse, typo in the email.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

10/8/2009 6:45:57 PM

On 9 Oct 2009, at 10:10 AM, Marcel de Velde wrote:

You have here a lot of enharmonic errors, after listening the file I would say it must be:

> As for the most obvious comma problem in measure 23:
>
> C(8/9) G(4/3) E(20/9) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2 5/3
>
> C(8/9) F#(512/405) D#(512/243) A(80/27) 1/1 32/27 64/45 5/3
>

C - F#-Eb-A

>
> A#(4/5) G(4/3) D(2/1) A#(16/5) 1/1 5/4 5/3
>

Bb-D-G-Bb

>
> A#(4/5) D(2/1) F(12/5) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2 5/3
>

Bb-D-F-G

>
> C(8/9) C(16/9) F(12/5) G(8/3) 1/1 27/20 3/2 <- dissonant fourth
>
> C(16/9) C(16/9) E(20/9) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2
>
> C(16/9) E(20/9) F#(1024/405) A(80/27) 1/1 5/4 64/45 5/3
>

C-E-F#-A (more logical would be Eb)

>
> A#(8/5) D(2/1) G(8/3) A#(16/5) 1/1 5/4 5/3
>

Bb-D-G-Bb

>
> A#(4/5) G(4/3) D(2/1) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 5/3
>

Bb-G-D-G

If you operate with JI, you must be aware of a difference between A# and Bb :-)

Daniel Forro

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 6:51:08 PM

Hi Daniel,

> You have here a lot of enharmonic errors, after listening the file I
> would say it must be:
>

>
> If you operate with JI, you must be aware of a difference between A#
> and Bb :-)
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
I must admit with shame.. I have no idea how to write enharmonically.
I never studied normal music theory, went straight to JI.
Will go read about enharmonic naming as soon as I can, but I'm soo bussy
with JI I don't know when I'll have the time.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

10/8/2009 6:54:25 PM

With all due respect I think you take a huge credibility hit when you say
you can't deal with enharmonic spelling.

Something like that is really fundamental to music and honestly something
that can be mastered in just a few minutes. One can't write down tonal music
properly without spelling music in the key it is being performed.

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
>
> > You have here a lot of enharmonic errors, after listening the file I
> > would say it must be:
> >
>
> >
> > If you operate with JI, you must be aware of a difference between A#
> > and Bb :-)
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
> I must admit with shame.. I have no idea how to write enharmonically.
> I never studied normal music theory, went straight to JI.
> Will go read about enharmonic naming as soon as I can, but I'm soo bussy
> with JI I don't know when I'll have the time.
>
> Marcel
> www.develde.net
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 6:57:08 PM

>As for the most obvious comma problem in measure 23:
>
>C(8/9) G(4/3) E(20/9) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2 5/3
>
>C(8/9) F#(512/405) D#(512/243) A(80/27) 1/1 32/27 64/45 5/3
>
>A#(4/5) G(4/3) D(2/1) A#(16/5) 1/1 5/4 5/3
>
>A#(4/5) D(2/1) F(12/5) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2 5/3
>
>C(8/9) C(16/9) F(12/5) G(8/3) 1/1 27/20 3/2 <- dissonant fourth
>
>C(16/9) C(16/9) E(20/9) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 3/2
>
>C(16/9) E(20/9) F#(1024/405) A(80/27) 1/1 5/4 64/45 5/3
>
>A#(8/5) D(2/1) G(8/3) A#(16/5) 1/1 5/4 5/3
>
>A#(4/5) G(4/3) D(2/1) G(8/3) 1/1 5/4 5/3
>
>A(3/4) A(3/2) D(2/1) F(12/5) 1/1 4/3 8/5

Grr, harder to follow in this vertical format...

>btw also notice the amazing 1/1 5/4 64/45 6/3 chord! :)

It may be amazing, but it's not JI, at least not classically.
It might qualify as JI in the American Gamelan sense, but it's
probably better to call it RI (rational intonation).

>The full transcription is on my website,

Looks like this was adapted from the .seq file? Also a
vertical format, as Aaron Johnson points out.

-Carl

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

10/8/2009 6:59:03 PM

No problem, Marcel, such basic rules are easy to learn and I'm sure you will work on it. It is not so bad to have good theoretical background. If you need some help in it, I can make proofchecking for you.

Daniel Forro

On 9 Oct 2009, at 10:51 AM, Marcel de Velde wrote:

>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> > You have here a lot of enharmonic errors, after listening the file I
> > would say it must be:
> >
>
> >
> > If you operate with JI, you must be aware of a difference between A#
> > and Bb :-)
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
> I must admit with shame.. I have no idea how to write enharmonically.
> I never studied normal music theory, went straight to JI.
> Will go read about enharmonic naming as soon as I can, but I'm soo > bussy
> with JI I don't know when I'll have the time.
>
> Marcel
> www.develde.net
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 6:59:33 PM

>
> With all due respect I think you take a huge credibility hit when you say
> you can't deal with enharmonic spelling.
>
Well it's just spelling.
In JI the notes written down contain no information to me anyhow, perhaps
I've been making it slightly harder for myself by midding out on some
information that I could obtain from enharmonic spelling in scores, but
nothing that makes much of a difference to me for JI purposes.

>
> Something like that is really fundamental to music and honestly something
> that can be mastered in just a few minutes. One can't write down tonal
> music
> properly without spelling music in the key it is being performed.
>
Ah I have something against normal music theory and spelling.Music is JI to
me remember :)
But I didn't know it can be mastered in just a few minutes, thanks for
letting me know I'll go learn it somewhere this week then!

Thanks,
Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 7:01:23 PM

Marcel wrote:

>Well it's just spelling.
>In JI the notes written down contain no information to me anyhow, perhaps
>I've been making it slightly harder for myself by midding out on some
>information that I could obtain from enharmonic spelling in scores, but
>nothing that makes much of a difference to me for JI purposes.

Actually as I'm sure others will be quick to point out, the spelling
*does* contain useful information relavent to transcription in JI.

-Carl

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

10/8/2009 7:05:30 PM

Exactly. There can be some doubts or more ways of enharmonic spelling in the case of atonal piece but tonal music is more simple. Of course even here we can find exceptions, like some crazy segments in Scarlatti where he used flats and sharps together, or in the case of enharmonic or chromatic modulation, or when using whole tone scale...

Daniel Forro

On 9 Oct 2009, at 10:54 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

>
> With all due respect I think you take a huge credibility hit when > you say
> you can't deal with enharmonic spelling.
>
> Something like that is really fundamental to music and honestly > something
> that can be mastered in just a few minutes. One can't write down > tonal music
> properly without spelling music in the key it is being performed.
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 7:05:56 PM

>
> >btw also notice the amazing 1/1 5/4 64/45 6/3 chord! :)
>
> It may be amazing, but it's not JI, at least not classically.
> It might qualify as JI in the American Gamelan sense, but it's
> probably better to call it RI (rational intonation).
>

Ah yes I've run across this before.
That's why I've called it DeVelde-JI :)
I do insist on the JI in DeVelde-JI though as to me it is Just Intonation in
the litteral sense of the words.

> >The full transcription is on my website,
>
> Looks like this was adapted from the .seq file? Also a
> vertical format, as Aaron Johnson points out.
>
> -Carl

It's made so that the 4 tracks can be copy-pasted into a Scala seq file yes.
I work from an excell sheet that looks exactly like the html transcription.
Perhaps I can take a pfd note sheet of the piece and add ratios next to the
notes, that would be the ultimate in readability for musicians.
I'll go look into a good way to make transcriptions soon.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 7:35:03 PM

>Perhaps I can take a pfd note sheet of the piece and add ratios next to the
>notes, that would be the ultimate in readability for musicians.
>I'll go look into a good way to make transcriptions soon.

That's how I did the first few bars. -Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 8:13:52 PM

Hi Carl,

>Perhaps I can take a pfd note sheet of the piece and add ratios next to the
> >notes, that would be the ultimate in readability for musicians.
> >I'll go look into a good way to make transcriptions soon.
>
> That's how I did the first few bars. -Carl

Ok nice.
I never saw that transcription. Would you mind sending it to me so I can see
how you did it.
I think I'll transcribe the entire piece in that way.
Indeed the way I did it now, while nice to work in, is very unreadable.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Aaron Johnson <aaron@...>

10/8/2009 8:51:23 PM

Yeah, I second this. Especially considering that Marcel wants to throw the
likes of Fux at us to (misguidedly) prop up his weak arguments. Fux would
laugh seeing some of these spellings, as Daniel Forro has so rightly pointed
out as blatant misunderstandings of Theory 101.......

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:

> With all due respect I think you take a huge credibility hit when you say
> you can't deal with enharmonic spelling.
>
> Something like that is really fundamental to music and honestly something
> that can be mastered in just a few minutes. One can't write down tonal
> music
> properly without spelling music in the key it is being performed.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Daniel,
> >
> >
> > > You have here a lot of enharmonic errors, after listening the file I
> > > would say it must be:
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > If you operate with JI, you must be aware of a difference between A#
> > > and Bb :-)
> > >
> > > Daniel Forro
> > >
> > >
> > I must admit with shame.. I have no idea how to write enharmonically.
> > I never studied normal music theory, went straight to JI.
> > Will go read about enharmonic naming as soon as I can, but I'm soo bussy
> > with JI I don't know when I'll have the time.
> >
> > Marcel
> > www.develde.net
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 8:56:48 PM

Marcel wrote:

>>> I'll go look into a good way to make transcriptions soon.
>>
>> That's how I did the first few bars. -Carl
>
> Ok nice.
> I never saw that transcription. Would you mind sending it to me
> so I can see how you did it.

I threw it out. But I can do it again, if you like. I'd have
to scan it, which is a pain. Why don't you try it? Here's an
example of another score that I've already scanned
http://lumma.org/music/score/Retrofit-JI.pdf

This is a lot more complex, with 11-limit harmony and dozens of
root changes. The Beethoven probably doesn't require any root
changes.

> I think I'll transcribe the entire piece in that way.
> Indeed the way I did it now, while nice to work in, is very
> unreadable.

Do you read music? If so, I think you'll find a score is the
fastest and most natural way to work. It took me 5 minutes to
find it on the web, print it out, and put the ratios in those
first bars. It took me 20 min to audit your seq file to make it
match my work.

-Carl

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

10/8/2009 9:03:02 PM

What do the numbers on that score mean Carl?

> I threw it out. But I can do it again, if you like. I'd have
> to scan it, which is a pain. Why don't you try it? Here's an
> example of another score that I've already scanned
> http://lumma.org/music/score/Retrofit-JI.pdf
>
> This is a lot more complex, with 11-limit harmony and dozens of
> root changes. The Beethoven probably doesn't require any root
> changes.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

10/8/2009 9:03:29 PM

Must... hear... example

Has this been rendered yet?

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 9:08:06 PM

By the notes are the ratios. Below the staff, circled,
are the root changes.

-Carl

At 09:03 PM 10/8/2009, Chris wrote:
>What do the numbers on that score mean Carl?
>
>
>> I threw it out. But I can do it again, if you like. I'd have
>> to scan it, which is a pain. Why don't you try it? Here's an
>> example of another score that I've already scanned
>> http://lumma.org/music/score/Retrofit-JI.pdf
>>
>> This is a lot more complex, with 11-limit harmony and dozens of
>> root changes. The Beethoven probably doesn't require any root
>> changes.
>>
>>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/8/2009 9:08:32 PM

>
> I threw it out. But I can do it again, if you like. I'd have
> to scan it, which is a pain. Why don't you try it? Here's an
> example of another score that I've already scanned
> http://lumma.org/music/score/Retrofit-JI.pdf
>
> This is a lot more complex, with 11-limit harmony and dozens of
> root changes. The Beethoven probably doesn't require any root
> changes.
>
> > I think I'll transcribe the entire piece in that way.
> > Indeed the way I did it now, while nice to work in, is very
> > unreadable.
>
> Do you read music? If so, I think you'll find a score is the
> fastest and most natural way to work. It took me 5 minutes to
> find it on the web, print it out, and put the ratios in those
> first bars. It took me 20 min to audit your seq file to make it
> match my work.
>
> -Carl
>

Ok thanks!
I have the pdf of the drei equali somewhere on my hd. Will add the numbers
digitally.
Doesn't really need a root change the way I wrote it now.
But oh I sooo hate not beeing able to do a root change in scala sequence
files.
Several times I've re-ratiod the entire piece from a different root to make
it better readable after I changed a part, it's such a pain.
Too bad tonalsoft doesn't work on my computer and rationale doesn't export
midi and gives me error messages, don't really have another option than
Scala sequence files as I dislike scale based working in normal notation
even less.
Btw yes I do read sheet music and can play the piano :)
It's just that I never really studied music theory, allways immediately fell
over the flaws and incompleteness.
I have gotten several old books but still have to read them, only read the
fux countrerpoint once.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 9:20:29 PM

Mike wrote:

>> I threw it out. But I can do it again, if you like. I'd have
>> to scan it, which is a pain. Why don't you try it? Here's an
>> example of another score that I've already scanned
>> http://lumma.org/music/score/Retrofit-JI.pdf
>
>Must... hear... example
>
>Has this been rendered yet?

No! It's pretty experimental - you can see I indicate multiple
options for some notes, and even for root changes in one or two
spots. It also dates from '99 when my ear wasn't nearly as good.
I later calculated the comma drift to be 387420489/367001600,
or about 94 cents, which I don't think is too bad over 24 root
changes without even considering drift in the tuning.

There is a 7-limit adaptive version in MIDI available:
http://lumma.org/music/score/midi/Retrofit_z7.mid

This is done with pitch bends and there are some glitches in
playback on my synth. On top of that, the tuning was chosen
automatically, and is hardly satisfactory. But it may be of
interest anyway. The MIDI file was generated straight from
the score, so it's lifeless. I also made it somewhat slower
than it should be to make the tuning more obvious.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

10/8/2009 9:22:30 PM

Marcel wrote:

>But oh I sooo hate not beeing able to do a root change in scala sequence
>files.

You can. Use the "key" command.

-Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/9/2009 6:04:25 AM

>
> You can. Use the "key" command.
>
> -Carl
>

Oh wow that would be great. I completely overlooked that one.
I'll go figure out if this also works for bracketed JI ratios like (3/2) or
only for scale based notation (which could still be great).
Thank you so much!!!

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/12/2009 8:10:45 AM

Ok just as latest update for those that thought my version of the drei
equali was right.I no longer belief it to be right, sorry.
It just doesn't make enough sense in some ways (long story).
I'm investigating a much more dissonant version with the first chord beeing
1/1 40/27 2/1 64/27 (an inversion of my 1/1 5/4 27/16 chord).
I'll give a small message when it's finished, though I don't think anybody
will still take it serious with this much dissonance and it beeing the 100th
version :)

Cheers,
Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Magnus Jonsson <jmagnusj@...>

10/12/2009 7:23:16 PM

I'd like to mention that I too have found 1/1 5/4 27/16 useful in JI
composition. It has a certain tension that yet doesn't sound too
dissonant. I don't typically put 27/16 in the bass but I can imagine
that t 27:32:40 chord doesn't sound too bad as long as all three parts
are in there. 27:32 in sounds pretty stable being close to 16:19, and
then the 32:40 is of course stable. The fifth is narrow, but since I
don't mind the 20:27 fourth in a vertical structure I might not mind
the 27:40 fifth either. I'd also like to mention that when the music
focuses on the tonic I generally prefer 5/3 and when moving to the to
the dominant I sometimes prefer 27/16. But you are probably dealing
with more tricky problems trying to retrofit JI onto an existing song.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok just as latest update for those that thought my version of the drei
> equali was right.I no longer belief it to be right, sorry.
> It just doesn't make enough sense in some ways (long story).
> I'm investigating a much more dissonant version with the first chord beeing
> 1/1 40/27 2/1 64/27 (an inversion of my 1/1 5/4 27/16 chord).
> I'll give a small message when it's finished, though I don't think anybody
> will still take it serious with this much dissonance and it beeing the 100th
> version :)
>
> Cheers,
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

10/23/2009 8:20:36 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Marcel/WoO30-Andante_(DeVelde-JI_23oct09)_tromb2.mp3
Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@...>
Description : De Velde Just Intonation

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Marcel/WoO30-Andante_%28DeVelde-JI_23oct09%29_tromb2.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

mdevelde <m.develde@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/24/2009 5:33:50 AM

More audio renderings, transcriptions, scores etc at www.develde.net
Also a very complete comparison against 12tet, LucyTuning and a Classic
5-limit JI version by Petr Parizek.

This piece is done now.
I will comming weeks put many other pieces in DeVelde-JI.
I have cracked the code of JI and music.
All music is JI in it's basis and my method will allow all music to be put
in perfect JI.
Western common practice classical music, eastern maqam music, all music!
This will make all music theory books be rewritten! Music revealed fully for
the first time.

Marcel
www.develde.net

Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Marcel/WoO30-Andante_(DeVelde-JI_23oct09)_tromb2.mp3
> Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
> Description : De Velde Just Intonation
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/Marcel/WoO30-Andante_%28DeVelde-JI_23oct09%29_tromb2.mp3
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles
>
> Regards,
>
> mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

10/24/2009 7:40:08 AM

Are you still going to examine the music I sent for dissonant 4ths so we can have Charles view in cermony DNA?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:33:50
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic

More audio renderings, transcriptions, scores etc at www.develde.net
Also a very complete comparison against 12tet, LucyTuning and a Classic
5-limit JI version by Petr Parizek.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

10/24/2009 9:58:05 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> I will comming weeks put many other pieces in DeVelde-JI.
> I have cracked the code of JI and music.
> All music is JI in it's basis and my method will allow all music to be put
> in perfect JI.
> Western common practice classical music, eastern maqam music, all music!
> This will make all music theory books be rewritten! Music revealed fully for
> the first time.

Megalomania, thy name is Marcel.

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/25/2009 5:42:51 AM

My message explaining partly how I did it and how DeVelde-JI works was
moderated from the tuning list.

Here a copy of the message:

Hi Mike, Not behind my home computer right now so I have to do everything by
memory but I'll try to answer and exlpain as best as I can. > Marcel, > >
All of this would likely garner more positive attention if you would simply
> tell us what you're doing. So far, all I've seen is you talking about how
> you have "solved JI" and "made music perfect" and how "your" JI is better
> than the rest or whatever. > I've told what I'm doing scattered in several
messages on several lists but realize this isn't easy to follow so I'll try
to condense it in a short form in this message for now :) > And if your
approach to JI has been to get yourself used to chords with wolf > fifths in
them, why not just get used to melodic leaps of wolf intervals as > well?
Then again, it's hard to be critical about what you're doing when you >
don't really explain exactly what your approach is. First of all, my
approach is that I think that music has too logical a structure not to have
a mathematical underlying system to it. I think this purely by listening to
it and analysing the way my mind understands music. Further thinking has led
me to the belief that tuning is at the very heart of music. I then searched
for proof wether music has to have compromises in tuning / if temperament is
at the heart of how we percieve music, or if music tuning can be pure math
and all tones have JI ratios to them. The "proofs" put foward by other
people that music can not be JI most of the time and must be tempered I've
investigated but could not find a single watertight proof. All I found was
that nobody really knew how to handle things like comma problems. Everything
I've found in tuning were people who have had an idea related to tuning and
tried to make it work. Or had come to certain assumptions and stick to those
etc. The more I worked with tuning the stronger my suspicion became that
indeed music is most likely pure JI and that when we play something in 12tet
the brain listenes through all the mistunings and hears an underlying
mathematical JI structure and this is what gives the music it's meaning /
mood etc. I became determined to either find out how JI / music works, or
proof that music cannot be JI indeed. But in order to find out how JI works
I had to go for it fully and expect it to work first, should I find a proof
that it can't work along the way that would be good to and I would have
posted this, but my first goal was to proof JI is the way music works and
how this JI system in itself works. Ok now you understand where I'm comming
from. As for my theories. I've tried every approach I could think of to
figure out how JI works. Thinking up mathematical structures that I think I
may hear in music, try tuning notes by ear and make sense of the JI ratios
those notes approached, high prime limit JI, 5-limit JI, 7-limit JI. Comma
shifts in melodies, comma drifting music, wolves, fixed scales, etc etc. My
enthausiasm has led me to belief very often that I had found something
special, only to find after a few days after more critical listening or
thinking that I didn't after all. I've tried so many things. I think I've
been working on it full time (don't have a job other than this) for about 3
years now. It just keeps pulling me in. Never before in my life have I
worked so hard for so long, but it is because I enjoy it and I kept feeling
that I had a chance at getting it right. When I came on these lists I had
not seriously retuned music. To do so was shocking for me how bad my retunes
sounded (along with everybody elses). But for most pieces I could find a to
my ears acceptable solution, though after critical thinking and listening I
could never tell for sure if the tuning was right, so I could never trust it
enough to investigate deeper and perhaps find some more of the rules of
music and JI. But one piece stood out in it's difficulty to get it sounding
right. Beethoven's Drei Equali Andante :) I think it's been 10 months now
that I threw every theory I had at it, and tried by ear and every way I
could think of. But it never made sense after the excitement of something
new wore off. Untill now :) Now about how I did it: Remember my theory on
Harmonic Interval Permutations? I once had the following idea. The harmonic
series is arguably the most harmonically perfect series there is. 1/1 2/1
3/1 4/1 5/1 6/1 7/1 8/1 9/1 etc My idea was to limit the harmonic series to
a number of choosing, and then figure out all the permutations of the
intervals. So by limiting to 3 you get: 1/1 2/1 3/1 Which contains the
interval 2/1 and the interval 3/2. Of which the only possible permutation is
first 3/2 then 2/1 which gives: 1/1 3/2 3/1 limiting to 4 will give the
following permutations: 1/1 2/1 3/1 4/1 1/1 2/1 8/3 4/1 1/1 3/2 3/1 4/1 1/1
4/3 8/3 4/1 1/1 4/3 2/1 4/1 If you put all the possible permutations in one
scale you get: 1/1 4/3 3/2 2/1 8/3 3/1 4/1 For harmonic 5-limit you get the
harmonic interval permutation product set: 1/1 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 2/1 5/2
8/3 3/1 10/3 15/4 4/1 5/1 For harmonic 6-limit you get the following
set/scale: 1/1 6/5 5/4 4/3 3/2 8/5 5/3 9/5 15/8 2/1 9/4 12/5 5/2 8/3 3/2
16/5 10/3 18/5 15/4 4/1 9/2 24/5 5/1 6/1 In one octave this gives: 1/1 9/8
6/5 5/4 4/3 3/2 8/5 5/3 9/5 15/8 2/1 For harmonic 7-limit you get a 20 note
per octave scale which I can't write from memory right now. The above
harmonic interval permutation product sets I allready believed to have
musical meaning but I didn't know how to see them before or how to apply
them. Btw notice they're perfect utonal sets. It's utonal at the harmonic
limit you've set. Beeing utonal first at 1/1 2/1 then 1/1 3/1 then 1/1 4/1
then 1/1 5/1 then 1/1 6/1 etc. You can turn the harmonic 6-limit scale
upside down and it's exactly equal (but you can't do this when you put it in
one octave) Many more things I can tell about these sets but I won't right
now from memory and don't have everything clear myself yet. Though it's
abvious one can decribe everything in simple mathematical formulas /
permuations working with these sets. Now what I recently found: My old
theory / the above sets work great as a tonality set! Take for the easyest
example applicable to common practice western classical music the harmonic
6-limit set: (here put in one octave) 1/1 9/8 6/5 5/4 4/3 3/2 8/5 5/3 9/5
15/8 2/1 I've shown above that all the tones have as their source 1/1 and
the harmonic series on 1/1. What could be a more beautifull defenition of
the tonic? :) All my other experimentations have eventually led me to think
in this direction as well. This is also almost classical music school
harmony. Tonic and modulations (change of tonic) A fixed scale from the
tonic. There are only 10 tones from the tonic in my harmonic 6-limit
permutation product set (which I now call 6-limit DeVelde Tonality Scale).
But the "missing" C#/Db and F#/Gb I find not to be tones from the tonic in
common practice music. To play for instance 1/1 16/15 4/3 8/5 the tonic is
not 1/1 but for instance 4/3 making 3/2 8/5 2/1 12/5. And C Eb Gb A doesn't
have as it's tonic C but for instance G making 9/8 4/3 8/5 15/8 (and all
inversion) etc etc. Not a common practice chord that can't be explained this
way. Also things like connected fifths. If the tonic is 1/1: 2/5 3/5 9/10
4/3 2/1 3/1 9/2 20/3 10/1 15/1 2 wolf fifths in the example above, but
they're not actually fifths, there are 2 times 3 notes connected by fifths
and 1 4 notes connected by fifths, and all of these are connected by thirds.
Rearange to get any configuration of 1/1 9/8 6/5 5/4 4/3 3/2 8/5 5/3 9/5
15/8 2/1 with a tonic of 1/1 If you play for instance a wolf interval like
9/8 5/3 or 4/3 9/5 (only wolfs there are) by itself it will sound out of
tune (and I also suspect a large part of this is because you will have a
hard time comvincing your ear/brain you're in the 1/1 tonic when playing a
fifth by itself without 1/1) But in actual music where the tonic has been
made clear this is atleast to my ear the only way to play it in tune. It
also solves all comma problems. As for the comma problems that are not in 1
tonic they will be solved with a modulation. I've so far found that
modulations happen only by consonant intervals of 3/2 4/3 5/4 5/3 though i'm
not sure of this yet and need to investigate more. The 6-limit DeVelde Tonal
Scale has the wolfs 9/8 5/3 which can make a minor equal triad of 9/8 4/3
5/3 and a wolf 4/3 9/5 which can make a major equal triad of 9/8 4/3 9/5.
Both wolfs occur in the Drei Equali andante, a total of 7 wolfs. The 9/8 4/3
5/3 minor occurs once, the 9/8 4/3 9/5 major occurs twice, of which one time
in a very very dissonant manner (you'll be able to hear it clearly with the
first trombone sound) Furthermore I think things like counterpoint rules /
rules for melodic movement etc can be found in the permutations. As for
going beyond 6-limit DeVelde Tonal scale. I think 7-limit DeVelde Tonal
Scale is all one needs. I seems to me it can play all eastern maqam scales
and do completely new music etc. 20 tones from the tonic is a LOT. (you can
also modulate all you want with don't forget) Ok and all of this would be
just another theory among the many there allready have been put forward the
past 2500? years. But what makes this one so different? First of all I
belief it explains more and has the potential to explain all. But most of
all, because it sounds right! :) Again have a listen at www.develde.net JI
has now become only the problem of placying the tonics correctly throughout
the piece, that's all there's to it and all music can be played / analysed
in JI like this. No more comma shifts, comma drifting music, comma problems
whatsoever at all. Yes wolfs, but functional and they're supposed to be
there. (never a wolf from the tonic or on the dominant / subdominant etc)
I've used 2 sounds to render the drei equali. First one is the harshest
sound I could find, very unnatural, and the best sound I've ever come across
for showing a wolf. With this sound you'll hear especially one wolf very
clearly in the piece. But while even with this very unnatural sound and
sounding very clearly it does not sound out of tune, it simply sounds very
wolfy and dissonant and very obvious. The second sound is more natural
(tromb2) and the wolfs, even the most dissonant use of the wolf possible in
6-limit develde-ji, isn't obvious at all but simply sounds "right" to me. As
my theory makes too much sense in too many ways. Solves all problems. Sounds
right, and has no competition from any other theory that can sound as right.
(if you think you can make it sound as good or better with another theory
please post in MIDI so i can put up a fair comparison with thesame sounds)
The I can only come to one conclusion. It IS right :) The comming time I
will be putting many other pieces in DeVelde-JI. And hope both the theory
and how the results sound will convince people. And that this all will lead
to new musical insights which will lead to beautifull compositions in new
musical directions. Marcel www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/25/2009 5:50:30 AM

Hi Chris,

Are you still going to examine the music I sent for dissonant 4ths so we can
> have Charles view in cermony DNA?

Yes I will. but have been bussy with the drei equali and my theory.
As you can see I've gone beyond only the 1/1 5/4 27/16 chord.
I found I had problems determining when it occurs. I no longer have.
The 1/1 5/4 27/16 chord occurs only as 4/3 5/2 9/4 when the tonic is 1/1.

However as far as I listened now to the music you sent I can hear many ways
the choir doesn't sing it right.
sliding pitches after they hear they're off in a harmony, etc etc.
Hard to pick 10 seconds of where I'm sure the choir sings it right and I'm
sure there should be a wolf.
Also not so sure if melodyne DNA will analyse choir music well, what charles
analysed on the tuning list was a violin.
Perhaps a known piece will be better, like the first part of Lassus ave
regina coulorum, and a part of the drei equali (trombone seems easyer to me
to analyse than choir)?
I have mp3's of both and know for sure there should be a wolf in certain
parts (and there are part which can mathematically certain not contain only
3/2 4/3 intervals)

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

10/25/2009 5:51:22 AM

> The 1/1 5/4 27/16 chord occurs only as 4/3 5/2 9/4 when the tonic is 1/1.

That should've been 4/3 5/3 9/4 offcourse.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

4/13/2010 1:19:24 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Marcel de Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_(Tonal-JI)_drone.mid
Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@...>
Description : Playing a continues D-F#-A drone to show tonality as D (major-minor), all notes harmonize with the tonal chord.

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_%28Tonal-JI%29_drone.mid

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

mdevelde <m.develde@...>

🔗prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>

4/14/2010 6:16:22 AM

I've posted another version of tuning that is closer to the one Marcel put up last week. Please see my blog for some details, including a jpeg file with Marcel's tuning compared to mine. I'm still working through some of the changes. My goal was to eliminate the intervals like 20/27 and 32/45 in favor of 3/2's, and this means compromising other intervals to get there. I also favored the 7th's as 7th overtones 7/4 above the chord root, rather than 16/9 above.

See http://tinyurl.com/y5vzf54

Prent Rodgers

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

4/15/2010 10:06:15 PM

> File : /Marcel de Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_(Tonal-JI)_drone.mid
> Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
> Description : Playing a continues D-F#-A drone to show tonality as D
> (major-minor), all notes harmonize with the tonal chord.
>

Here again, corrected:
/makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_(Tonal-JI_15-04-2010)_tonicdrone.mid</makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_%28Tonal-JI_15-04-2010%29_tonicdrone.mid>

Playing a continues 1/1 2/1 3/1 4/1 5/1 6/1 drone to indicate the tonic of
the piece.
And you'll hear that every note and chord harmonizes to this tonic chord
according to the 6-limit tonal-ji harmonic model.
It's magic :)

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

4/16/2010 7:31:37 PM

Hi Prent,

> I've posted another version of tuning that is closer to the one Marcel put
> up last week. Please see my blog for some details, including a jpeg file
> with Marcel's tuning compared to mine. I'm still working through some of the
> changes. My goal was to eliminate the intervals like 20/27 and 32/45 in
> favor of 3/2's, and this means compromising other intervals to get there. I
> also favored the 7th's as 7th overtones 7/4 above the chord root, rather
> than 16/9 above.
>
> See http://tinyurl.com/y5vzf54
>
> Prent Rodgers
>

Ah nice transcription :)
I also like the note numbering, I'll use it myself too from now on. It makes
talking about it much easyer.

About your tuning compared to mine:

Chord 8: To make this not a wolf anymore by dropping the pitches removes the
repetition of the high melody in the bass.
The high melody goes: 9/4 12/5 8/3, then the bass repeats it an octave lower
9/8 6/5 4/3, but in your version this is no longer a repetition as it goes
10/9 6/5 4/3 in the bass.
Another thing is, you could connect chord 4 and 8, the melodies don't
indicate new chords.
This connection of the dominant chord 3/2 3/2 15/8 9/4 goes to 9/8 9/5 9/4
8/3 in my version, but to 10/9 16/9 20/9 8/3 in your version which would be
a comma shift (and may just as well have been a held note comma shift I
think)

Chord 12 to 14: to drop the seventh from 12/5 to 14/6 as you do here sounds
very low, but not even that bad to me.
But when note 16 come my ear definately expects the same pitch again. The
12/5 in note 16 sounds very strange to me when there was a 14/5 before.

The other 7th harmonics in chord 23, 24, 27 also sound low to me, don't sit
right in my ear.

As for the 27/16 instead of my 8/5 in chord 38, I don't get that one. It's a
Bb, not a B. This is an unintentional mistake?

After that, measures till measure 47, I don't like how they sound.
And the diminished chord in measure 48 sounds very out of tune to me, sorry.

I hope the feedback is helpfull somehow.

Btw I ended up changing one note in my own version.
note 33, from an 8/3 to a 27/10 now.
Also updated my transcription to include my harmonic model roots, and
numbered the notes/chord just like you did.

Here's the transcription:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28Tonal-JI_15-04-2010%29.png

And here's my mp3 rendering:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28Tonal-JI_15-04-2010%29.mp3

Btw, there's slightly more difference in the mp3 than just the one changed
note at 33.
I found I had accidently mistuned a few notes by a few cents in melodyne
before (had apparently been a bit sloppy). These are now correctly tuned
aswell.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

7/11/2010 10:03:23 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Marcel de Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_(m-JI_11-July-2010).mid
Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@...>
Description : Perfect Just Intonation!!! History made! :-)

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_%28m-JI_11-July-2010%29.mid

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,

mdevelde <m.develde@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/11/2010 12:29:59 PM

Please redownload.
I had one last error in it.
1/1 6/5 3/2 doesn't go to 3/2 243/128 9/4
but to 3/2 256/135 9/4
Melodies don't move with 256/243, but with 16/15 and 135/128. This is basis
of counterpoint.
And apparently I can hear a Schisma :)
It's perfect now :)

Marcel's Just Intonation I call it.
M-JI

Marcel

On 11 July 2010 19:03, <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Marcel de Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_(m-JI_11-July-2010).mid
> Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
> Description : Perfect Just Intonation!!! History made! :-)
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_%28m-JI_11-July-2010%29.mid
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
>
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles
>
> Regards,
>
> mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/11/2010 7:27:16 PM

Oh bloody hell..
I rushed too much and made new errors when trying to fix others.
Now fixed those errors too.
The finished without errors Drei Equale no1 in minor key is in my folder:
/makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/
It never sounded this well.

However.. I allready knew this piece was walking a fine line between major
and minor.
And after reconsideration.. I must say it crossed the line.
This piece isn't in minor, it's in major!
I'll finish the major version this night. Much much MUCH more consonant.
The minor version is taking it too far.

Marcel

On 11 July 2010 21:29, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

> Please redownload.
> I had one last error in it.
> 1/1 6/5 3/2 doesn't go to 3/2 243/128 9/4
> but to 3/2 256/135 9/4
> Melodies don't move with 256/243, but with 16/15 and 135/128. This is basis
> of counterpoint.
> And apparently I can hear a Schisma :)
> It's perfect now :)
>
> Marcel's Just Intonation I call it.
> M-JI
>
> Marcel
>
>
> On 11 July 2010 19:03, <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> This email message is a notification to let you know that
>> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
>> group.
>>
>> File : /Marcel de Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_(m-JI_11-July-2010).mid
>> Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@gmail.com <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
>> Description : Perfect Just Intonation!!! History made! :-)
>>
>> You can access this file at the URL:
>>
>> /makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_%28m-JI_11-July-2010%29.mid
>>
>> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
>>
>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/11/2010 10:45:13 PM

Pfff
Finally done.
I had been straying too far from my original good JI thinking and was trying
to draw silly conclusions too early which made me mess up again while I knew
I was so close.
My apologies to the list for too many messages and changes again.
This is the last one I'm replying to myself / fixing things :)

It's not at all become the consonant version I was thinking about.
And I'm not sure wether to call it in major or minor either.
But here it is:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28M-JI_12-July-2010%29.mid
It's also in my folder in the files section.
It's completely in one key now C major / A minor.
Ending is the saddest major chord ever.

Marcel

On 12 July 2010 04:27, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh bloody hell..
> I rushed too much and made new errors when trying to fix others.
> Now fixed those errors too.
> The finished without errors Drei Equale no1 in minor key is in my folder:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/
>
> It never sounded this well.
>
> However.. I allready knew this piece was walking a fine line between major
> and minor.
> And after reconsideration.. I must say it crossed the line.
> This piece isn't in minor, it's in major!
> I'll finish the major version this night. Much much MUCH more consonant.
> The minor version is taking it too far.
>
> Marcel
>
>
> On 11 July 2010 21:29, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
>> Please redownload.
>> I had one last error in it.
>> 1/1 6/5 3/2 doesn't go to 3/2 243/128 9/4
>> but to 3/2 256/135 9/4
>> Melodies don't move with 256/243, but with 16/15 and 135/128. This is
>> basis of counterpoint.
>> And apparently I can hear a Schisma :)
>> It's perfect now :)
>>
>> Marcel's Just Intonation I call it.
>> M-JI
>>
>> Marcel
>>
>>
>> On 11 July 2010 19:03, <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> This email message is a notification to let you know that
>>> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
>>> group.
>>>
>>> File : /Marcel de Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_(m-JI_11-July-2010).mid
>>> Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
>>> Description : Perfect Just Intonation!!! History made! :-)
>>>
>>> You can access this file at the URL:
>>>
>>> /makemicromusic/files/Marcel%20de%20Velde/Drei_Equale_No1_%28m-JI_11-July-2010%29.mid
>>>
>>> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
>>>
>>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> mdevelde <m.develde@... <m.develde%40gmail.com>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/12/2010 10:33:05 AM

Finished no2 aswell!! :-)
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No2_%28M-JI_12-July-2010%29.mid
Also in my folder in the files section of this list.

It's in the same key as no1!
C major / A minor.
So much for normal music theory...
It's sounding beautifully sad now :)

It's a great experience to listen to no1 first and then no2.
They transition perfectly.

Marcel

On 12 July 2010 07:45, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

>
> http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28M-JI_12-July-2010%29.mid
> It's also in my folder in the files section.
> It's completely in one key now C major / A minor.
> Ending is the saddest major chord ever.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/12/2010 11:57:44 AM

The trilogy is complete!!! :-)

http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No3_%28M-JI_12-July_2010%29.mid

This one went real easy.. as (like I was hoping) it's in the same key
as the other 2 :)
Master Beethoven did good!

All 3 can be heard at www.develde.net
Or in my folder (Marcel de Velde) in the files section of this group.

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/23/2010 10:39:54 PM

Just to update this thread:

All previous version were wrong.
This one is right:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Drei_Equale_no1_%28M-JI%29.mp3
12edo for comparison:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Drei_Equale_no1_%2812edo%29.mp3

Finally cracked the code :)

On a side note:
Should anybody actually be listening, and actually recognise this for what
it is (fairly unlikely though), then please don't post or talk about this on
the tuning list.
I've been banned there by Carl after I complained about beeing moderated..
So if anybody wants to seriously dicuss tuning, contact me privately. (as
this is making music list, not endless discussions ending in flames list :)

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/24/2010 9:48:10 AM

Ok, so I did crack the code, however... :)
I managed to consistently use the wrong harmonic for the minor third.
Well, not that "wrong" actually, as it is still "in tune" according to the
laws of music that way. However it's a very far fetched interpretation.
The tones suit middle eastern or some jazz music to some degree but not
really this piece :)
So here it is:

The world's first truly Just Intoned music!

http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Drei_Equale_no1_%28M-JI_2010-07-24%29.mp3

There is not a soul on this planet that'll hear this one as out of tune :)

Compare it to 12edo to hear how different it actually is:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Drei_Equale_no1_%2812edo%29.mp3
Ouch.. that one sounds kinda bad now doesn't it ;)

And just for tuning fun, I've also kept up the crazy "blues" interpretation:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Drei_Equale_no1_%28M-JI_2010-07-24%29-blues.mp3

Hope you enjoy! :)

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/24/2010 10:20:31 AM

Just one last call:

For those that have long given up on my research.
And for those that have given up long ago on common practice music beeing
possible in pure strict Just Intonation.

I urge you to give it just one more try, and listen to it:

http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Drei_Equale_no1_%28M-JI_2010-07-24%29.mp3

I'm not asking this for myself, I'm asking this for you.
Really give it a listen. I could eventually change your entire microtonal /
musical thinking / path.

All microtonalists should be interested in this.
As it is not only the first correctly in tune music in the world.
I holds in it the secrets to all possible microtonal music.

Marcel
www.develde.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

7/24/2010 2:56:35 PM

Walked through it a few more times, and found 2 small errors (not very
audible, found them by theory not by ear)
So I think in this one every single note is correct:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Drei_Equale_no1_%28M-JI_24-7-2010%29.mp3

Removed the older one so that link doesn't work anymore.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

9/15/2010 8:49:35 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/challenger13TET.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Is it possible to make a stable sounding melody and chords in 13TET? Here's my best shot...

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/challenger13TET.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/15/2010 8:58:08 PM

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/challenger13TET.mp3

This is my best shot "by ear" to make a stable sounding melody and backing
line in 13TET with 4-5 note chords. Done completely by ear (no prepared music
theory involved!) as a "test" of Kraig Grady's comment that

"The music defines what is good and not. not theory which discusses
music in it most neutered form, without purpose or meaning."-Kraig

I'm still trying to figure out for myself...how a tuning with such weird
dyads () it can all sound somewhat stable....but I do admit finding a bassline
that fits with chords and making chords any larger than 4 notes on size sound
stable seems very hard in this tuning just going by ear IE with no backing
theory. One thing seems for sure (at least to my ears): songs in tunings with
bizarre/"wrong" dyads seem to be able to work (and sound more unique than those
with very sweet sounding dyads) so long as you are willing to settle for limited
chord options.

Next dare...I might try the same thing in 8TET (gasp!) :-D

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

9/15/2010 9:36:40 PM

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/challenger13TET.mp3
>
> This is my best shot "by ear" to make a stable sounding melody and backing
> line in 13TET with 4-5 note chords. Done completely by ear (no prepared music
> theory involved!) as a "test" of Kraig Grady's comment that
>
> "The music defines what is good and not. not theory which discusses
> music in it most neutered form, without purpose or meaning."-Kraig
>
> I'm still trying to figure out for myself...how a tuning with such weird
> dyads () it can all sound somewhat stable....but I do admit finding a bassline
> that fits with chords and making chords any larger than 4 notes on size sound
> stable seems very hard in this tuning just going by ear IE with no backing
> theory. One thing seems for sure (at least to my ears): songs in tunings with
> bizarre/"wrong" dyads seem to be able to work (and sound more unique than those
> with very sweet sounding dyads) so long as you are willing to settle for limited
> chord options.
>
> Next dare...I might try the same thing in 8TET (gasp!) :-D

Beautiful. I hear shades of different diatonic structures in this. I
wish I could state that as an absolutism, but if I've learned anything
recently, is that I can't state anything as an absolutism when it
comes to musical perception.

In all seriousness, you have a gift for composing. Please write more
stuff. It would be awesome to hear an ET survey of you doing a small
melodic fragment like this from everything from 7-tet up to 22 or
something.

Also, again, what program are you using to do this?

-Mike

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

9/15/2010 9:48:49 PM

On 16 Sep 2010, at 12:58 PM, Michael wrote:
>
> I'm still trying to figure out for myself...how a tuning with
> such weird
> dyads ()

Why do you think they are weird?

> it can all sound somewhat stable....

Do you think that music must always sound "stable"? I can imagine
"instable" music as well and it can be good.

> ... limited
> chord options.

The more notes in octave we have in microtonal scales, the more
chords we can construct. Why do you think number of chords are limited?

Daniel Forro

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jsmith9624@...

9/16/2010 4:16:20 AM

Hi dj,

I actually like this a lot, and it would be very interesting to hear an
intro & then development of this material.

Best,
jls

> Hello,
>
> Is it possible to make a stable sounding melody and chords in 13TET?
Here's my best shot...

🔗John Moriarty <JlMoriart@...>

9/16/2010 7:43:33 AM

> I'm still trying to figure out for myself...how a tuning with such weird
> dyads () it can all sound somewhat stable....

I made a little improvisation with the TransFormSynth a while back using 13-edo for about the first third of it, and I'd wonder if anyone here finds it to be "stable", because I definitely do. I've found the harmonic possibilities in 13-edo to be fun, at least using the TFS.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfliriA9ELQ

John Moriarty

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/16/2010 7:59:09 AM

Me> I'm still trying to figure out for myself...how a tuning with
> such weird
> dyads...(could sound so stable)

Daniel>Why do you think they are weird?
To my ears, anything not in some type of neutral class that's not
diminished/augmented/perfect/major/minor...seems to sound convoluted: almost as
if it can't decide what mood it wants to be.

Me> it can all sound somewhat stable....
Daniel>"Do you think that music must always sound "stable"? I can imagine
"instable" music as well and it can be good."

I find it is hard to manage. By stable I mean varying between consonance and
dissonance in a controlled manner: such that people listening, even if they
don't like the style of the piece, can tell you know what you are doing. For
the record, I would consider 21/17 unstable...and, as such, the number of
intervals that work well with it to my ear are few and far between.

Even in something like my 13TET example, I found the scale under it I came
up with by ear was fairly close to diatonic. In a few notable scales though
(say 31TET and 19TET), I have found myself using neutral intervals and even
"odd" diminished ones (such as the 22/15 diminished 5th) by ear to replace
diatonic intervals.

And when I hear other people's music or show people mine...similar cases
seem to unfold (in fact some people won't 'even' accept neutral, they only say
diatonic sounds 'ok'...though I think the neutral alternative is just as stable
sounding in many cases).

Of course, "unstable music" can sound good...but it seems to be a much
tougher balancing act to pull off far as composition.

>"The more notes in octave we have in microtonal scales, the more chords we can
>construct. Why do you think number of chords are limited?"
Not limited in how many we can create individually, but how many we can
string together into something coherent and "stable" so far as progression.
Easy example: many people can only use 12TET as a 7-note scale and/or only so
transpositions/"bridged"-sections....finding people who can actually switch keys
in the middle of a melody and chord progression (ALA Debussy) is much harder.
Feel free to introduce counter examples (especially those which don't require
rocket science to understand ;-) )...I actually wish I was able to gain an
ability to, say, dynamically switch among multiple scales/modes/chords
mid-progression without that awkward feeling of a "gap" or "slip" in mood.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/16/2010 8:15:48 AM

John>"I made a little improvisation with the TransFormSynth a while back using
13-edo for about the first third of it, and I'd wonder if anyone here finds it
to be "stable", because I definitely do. I've found the harmonic possibilities
in 13-edo to be fun, at least using the TFS.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfliriA9ELQ"

Some parts sound very stable and it all sounds quite interesting. Around
15-16 seconds it "slips" then at 19-23 seconds then at 35, then around 45....
The odd thing with 13TET I've found so far is once you slip out of a
non-that-far from (say 20 cents or less from) diatonic scale (which is pretty
much what I ended up doing now that I look at the numeric values for the notes I
found by ear) it begins to sound "in between moods". It's almost as if you are
switching modes but taking half of the notes from each mode. And this (I'm
guessing from listening to your piece) even applies to using the matched timbres
of TFS (which, of course, often can't 'save' intervals that sound bad to anyone
with sine waves...even if it does help a lot with roughness issues between
partials).

One thing TFS-like I can say sounds at least 90% stable to me is Sethares
song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mck2PcsZ44

Then again that's in 17TET, which is loaded with both good diatonic and
neutral intervals...plus an "alternative" 5th of 13/9...plus, minus the
technical reasons...I just plain old find it easier to compose in 'even' purely
by ear. In 13TET (and it would be interesting if someone found otherwise)...I
find it much easier to "cherry pick" a fairly small (6-7 tone) scale first and
then compose within that scale.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

9/16/2010 10:35:39 AM

That's really good, Michael! I think it demonstrates well some of the really unique harmonic possibilities that somehow don't actually beat hardly at all. It really captures the "mood"/"color" of 13-EDO as I've experienced it. I'll have to upload a piece as well (whenever I have the time)!

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/challenger13TET.mp3
>
>
> This is my best shot "by ear" to make a stable sounding melody and backing
> line in 13TET with 4-5 note chords. Done completely by ear (no prepared music
> theory involved!) as a "test" of Kraig Grady's comment that
>
> "The music defines what is good and not. not theory which discusses
> music in it most neutered form, without purpose or meaning."-Kraig
>
> I'm still trying to figure out for myself...how a tuning with such weird
> dyads () it can all sound somewhat stable....but I do admit finding a bassline
> that fits with chords and making chords any larger than 4 notes on size sound
> stable seems very hard in this tuning just going by ear IE with no backing
> theory. One thing seems for sure (at least to my ears): songs in tunings with
> bizarre/"wrong" dyads seem to be able to work (and sound more unique than those
> with very sweet sounding dyads) so long as you are willing to settle for limited
> chord options.
>
> Next dare...I might try the same thing in 8TET (gasp!) :-D
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/16/2010 12:42:51 PM

Igs>"That's really good, Michael! I think it demonstrates well some of the
really unique harmonic possibilities that somehow don't actually beat hardly at
all. I'll have to upload a piece as well (whenever I have the time)!"

Thank you! The funny thing is, I think there are strong subsets chords of
just about any tuning that don't beat...some just take more coaxing than others
to reveal those subsets and some tunings have more of such subsets than others.
:-)

>"It really captures the "mood"/"color" of 13-EDO as I've experienced it."
Interesting. I actually re-did the exact same melody/chords in 12TET and
noticed that in 13TET the bright parts seem brighter and the dark parts seem
darker...thus everything under 13TET, to me at least, comes across as less
relaxed but more "assertive" and dramatic. How would you describe the general
mood of 13TET?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

9/16/2010 1:04:45 PM

It is a bit to short to tell much

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 17/09/10 3:35 AM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
> That's really good, Michael! I think it demonstrates well some of the really unique harmonic possibilities that somehow don't actually beat hardly at all. It really captures the "mood"/"color" of 13-EDO as I've experienced it. I'll have to upload a piece as well (whenever I have the time)!
>
> -Igs
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael<djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/challenger13TET.mp3
>>
>>
>> This is my best shot "by ear" to make a stable sounding melody and backing
>> line in 13TET with 4-5 note chords. Done completely by ear (no prepared music
>> theory involved!) as a "test" of Kraig Grady's comment that
>>
>> "The music defines what is good and not. not theory which discusses
>> music in it most neutered form, without purpose or meaning."-Kraig
>>
>> I'm still trying to figure out for myself...how a tuning with such weird
>> dyads () it can all sound somewhat stable....but I do admit finding a bassline
>> that fits with chords and making chords any larger than 4 notes on size sound
>> stable seems very hard in this tuning just going by ear IE with no backing
>> theory. One thing seems for sure (at least to my ears): songs in tunings with
>> bizarre/"wrong" dyads seem to be able to work (and sound more unique than those
>> with very sweet sounding dyads) so long as you are willing to settle for limited
>> chord options.
>>
>> Next dare...I might try the same thing in 8TET (gasp!) :-D
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

9/16/2010 6:02:10 PM

On 16 Sep 2010, at 11:59 PM, Michael wrote:
>
> Me> it can all sound somewhat stable....
> Daniel>"Do you think that music must always sound "stable"? I can
> imagine
> "instable" music as well and it can be good."
>
> I find it is hard to manage. By stable I mean varying between
> consonance and
> dissonance in a controlled manner: such that people listening, even
> if they
> don't like the style of the piece, can tell you know what you are
> doing. For
> the record, I would consider 21/17 unstable...and, as such, the
> number of
> intervals that work well with it to my ear are few and far between.
>

I'm making music 45 years but never heard of such aesthetical
cathegorisation - stable/unstable music :-)
In my opinion music must be mainly unstable as it's always changing.
If we keep for example C major triad for 30 minutes, that's enough
stable, but it can't be still called music.

> Of course, "unstable music" can sound good...but it seems to
> be a much
> tougher balancing act to pull off far as composition.
>

See previous answer.

> Not limited in how many we can create individually, but how many
> we can
> string together into something coherent and "stable" so far as
> progression.

Anything can be used for progressions, it depends only what we want
to express. Why there should be any limitations? It's just further
expansion of chromatic harmony in 12tone system.

> Easy example: many people can only use 12TET as a 7-note scale and/
> or only so
> transpositions/"bridged"-sections....finding people who can
> actually switch keys
> in the middle of a melody and chord progression (ALA Debussy) is
> much harder.
> Feel free to introduce counter examples (especially those which
> don't require
> rocket science to understand ;-) )...I actually wish I was able to
> gain an
> ability to, say, dynamically switch among multiple scales/modes/chords
> mid-progression without that awkward feeling of a "gap" or "slip"
> in mood.

I'm afraid I don't understand you well. Smooth modulations od many
kind and tonal jumps are the basic feature of any good music written
in tonality and extended tonality with functional harmony in last 300
years at least. Where's the problem? Any functional harmony textbook
will explain theory. And then just listen and analyze lot of music to
learn more... It's easy and probably almost everything in this field
was discovered and used.

Daniel Forro

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/16/2010 7:49:25 PM

Daniel>"If we keep for example C major triad for 30 minutes, that's enough
stable, but it can't be still called music."
True enough. I will say this, two prerequisites in my mind for music
connecting emotionally (to most people) are
A) Stablility...does it have a gentle sense of progression rather then feeling
like it suddenly and violently changes moods/"gears". And that can apply to
psychoacoustics (less toward more dissonant or vice-versa), chord changes,
instruments fading in, parts building up with melodies and or drums becoming
less/more intense during build-ups or breakdowns or intros or song ending.
A2) Understandably, progression and an evolving nature is needed. In general
songs have a starting point and a destination...and it's not a true journey
unless those two points are different.

IMVHO the most smart musicians can gracefully guide a listener from very calm to
very tense and provide a huge amount of progression/evolution in a song so the
listener can sense everything coming and "coast over the waves of changes"
rather than "get caught in the wake".

>"Anything can be used for progressions, it depends only what we want to
>express. Why there should be any
>
limitations? It's just further expansion of chromatic harmony in 12tone system."
I'm not saying there should be limitations...but I'm saying there are certain
things we should expect any scale system to do and certain things we should
expect it not to do. Back to my 21/17 interval example...as a rough interval
it seems to limit the number of chords possible without sounding like chaos.
And hey...even in 12TET if you cluster enough notes together you can see
patterns that limit how much the mind can hear of the emotion in you
composition. Take a 3 note chord and change a note and the sound is a whole lot
different. Change a note in a 5 note chord and it's just a bit different.
Change a note in a 7 note chord or even make crazy inversions of it...and often
the mood stays virtually the same. Take something like an Add2 chord and add a
suspended 4th tone and you'll barely hear any change in feel but may well be
startled by the increased dissonance (unless that's what you want to
accomplish).

The point is not to limit compositional options, but realize where your
musical efforts may get diminishing returns and efficiently decide where it is
or isn't worth it to put forth extra effort. I think it's a huge reason why
more people don't compose microtonal music...it's not that they dislike all the
extra options, but have little to no idea how to pick among them or figure out
how likely they will/won't work for what they want from them
musically/emotionally.

To put it in perspective...I'm going to be trying to make examples (like this
13TET one) and eventually a full song re-tuned in a bunch of different tunings
to give the listener an idea of what to expect from each tuning far as mood
difference and chord variety. Hopefully people will be able to flip through
them and saying "ok, this scale/tuning fits what I want best" instead of
thinking "ok...millions of options...let's just try all of them until I either
find one that works for me or run out of patience".

>"Smooth modulations of many kind and tonal jumps are the basic feature of any
>good music written
>
in tonality and extended tonality with functional harmony in last 300 years at
least. Where's the problem? "
At least in pop music and music school...I see the idea being taught of
7-note scales and modes under 12TET as the main focus. Pop songs are
virtually all written in 7-tone scales with sudden transpositions into other
7-tone scales. Use of "Chromaticism" IE of more than 7 notes in the scale once,
I've found, is not a focus. I guess you could call something like shifting from
a c-major chord to a g-major chord (tonic to dominant...if I have it right) as a
"modulation"...but you're still stuck within the same 7 notes. Of course, if
you go deep enough into classical or jazz theory you get smooth
modulations...but even then a whole lot of people are likely to jump in and say
"this is out of tune...this is unsettling...this doesn't CONNECT EMOTIONALLY".

And that's not to say it shouldn't be done...but, rather, that I believe we
should realize that we are not there yet...that we have a ways to go before such
modulations are accepted by most people...rather than consider the challenge to
have been conquered "hundreds of years ago".

>"Any functional harmony textbook will explain theory. And then just listen and
>analyze lot of music to
>
learn more... It's easy and probably almost everything in this field was
discovered and used."
Modulation theory may be easy for you (and it would be cool if you could post
some good links to primers on it)...but so far that I've tried it, meaning both
on the grounds of following the examples AND making it sound cohesive enough
that most people I show the composition I made with such theory to think it
sounds good.

In a separate reply I'm going to post an old song called "Melancholy in
Yellow" I made in 19TET which tries to use some modulation tricks to make an
8-tone scale under 19TET sound stable. And to be honest, just making that extra
tone fit proved tricky enough to me...and, secondly (yet I digress), it didn't
exactly work emotionally (the average rating for that song on traxinspace.com
was 2.5/5). :-P
Though I'd be interested to see someone make a song without a lot of beat or
effects work (IE with most of it's musical value coming from melody and
counterpoint) that modulates well and getting it to connect with the public (AKA
beyond academia) with very positive ratings... :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

9/16/2010 8:01:12 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Melancholy in Yellow: (trying to use modulation to get 8-note scales under 19TET)

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,

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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/16/2010 8:13:19 PM

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3

This is a complete! :-D song I did in 19TET ages ago called "Melancholy in
Yellow". The idea is to use 8-note subsets of 19TET and make them transition
smoothly, making the effect sound more like modulation and less like "sudden
bridges/transpositions between two 7-note scales. On a more personal note...the
idea behind the song is being an old man...not being able see or hear anything,
only sense touch...and the mix of bewilderment and frustration when you feel the
sun's heat and know it's a beautiful sunny day but can't connect to it.
A link to the song is below (note the low rating...I had a obviously long way
to work on my modulation skills before I could connect to the greater public
emotionally with such work). :-D

http://www.traxinspace.com/song/37440

Side note: all my songs are done with OpenMPT...which natively supports
micro-tonal re-tuning of samples in its experimental "MPTM" format. It's not
the most advanced software, but I've found it makes entering and testing
micro-tonal scales surprisingly quick to accomplish (make a scale, save it once,
apply to all instruments via a drop-down rather than several file imports to
different soft-synths...plus notes are labelled A-Z(and beyond) instead of 1-12
and then having to guess where the period is for scales of more than 12-tones).
Produces far less headaches for microtonal composition than anything else I've
tried...and it's 100% free and open source from Sourceforge.net.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

9/17/2010 2:01:18 PM

I really, REALLY like this track. It's a really xenharmonic use of 19-EDO that isn't "show-offy" the way 19 often does when it's taken out of meantone territory. It's very evocative and I really like the concept behind it. What 8-note subsets did you use? I've got a 19-EDO acoustic guitar on the way, so I'm starting to get curious about to work with 19 in more xenharmonic ways; you definitely found aspects of the tuning with this piece that I've never heard anyone else use, and I wanna know how you did it!

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3
>
>
> This is a complete! :-D song I did in 19TET ages ago called "Melancholy in
> Yellow". The idea is to use 8-note subsets of 19TET and make them transition
> smoothly, making the effect sound more like modulation and less like "sudden
> bridges/transpositions between two 7-note scales. On a more personal note...the
> idea behind the song is being an old man...not being able see or hear anything,
> only sense touch...and the mix of bewilderment and frustration when you feel the
> sun's heat and know it's a beautiful sunny day but can't connect to it.
> A link to the song is below (note the low rating...I had a obviously long way
> to work on my modulation skills before I could connect to the greater public
> emotionally with such work). :-D
>
> http://www.traxinspace.com/song/37440
>
> Side note: all my songs are done with OpenMPT...which natively supports
> micro-tonal re-tuning of samples in its experimental "MPTM" format. It's not
> the most advanced software, but I've found it makes entering and testing
> micro-tonal scales surprisingly quick to accomplish (make a scale, save it once,
> apply to all instruments via a drop-down rather than several file imports to
> different soft-synths...plus notes are labelled A-Z(and beyond) instead of 1-12
> and then having to guess where the period is for scales of more than 12-tones).
> Produces far less headaches for microtonal composition than anything else I've
> tried...and it's 100% free and open source from Sourceforge.net.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/17/2010 2:21:38 PM

Igs>"I really, REALLY like this track. It's a really xenharmonic use of 19-EDO
that isn't "show-offy" the way 19 often does when it's taken out of meantone
territory. It's very evocative and I really like the concept behind it. What
8-note subsets did you use? I've got a 19-EDO acoustic guitar on the way, so
I'm starting to get curious about to work with 19 in more xenharmonic ways; you
definitely found aspects of the tuning with this piece that I've never heard
anyone else use, and I wanna know how you did it!"

Well (of course)...thank you and glad you enjoyed it so much! This song is
so old (not to mention the issue of scales all being found by ear) I'm not sure
how I did it. But hey, I have the source/"scores" for it and will try my best
to dig into it (which scales I used AND perhaps a bit of numerical inferences
about them) this weekend. Luckily I know a lot more in terms of theory and
microtonal terms than I did when I wrote this to help explain it all. :-) Good
luck with your new "monster" 19TET guitar, by the way!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

9/17/2010 6:06:23 PM

Michael wrote:

> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/small
> melancholic.mp3
>
>This is a complete!

Some very nice touches here. I did find the main loop a bit
repetitive by the end -- maybe just something to vary its dynamics
a bit would help.

-Carl

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

9/17/2010 6:19:28 PM

Congratulations to Michael for this delectable piece!

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Sep 18, 2010, at 4:06 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:

> Michael wrote:
>
>> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/small
>> melancholic.mp3
>>
>> This is a complete!
>
> Some very nice touches here. I did find the main loop a bit
> repetitive by the end -- maybe just something to vary its dynamics
> a bit would help.
>
> -Carl
>
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/17/2010 6:33:17 PM

Igs>"It's very evocative and I really like the concept behind it. What 8-note
subsets did you use?"

The tuning is as follows (I realized all the scale changes were just
transpositions of the exact same scale!) :-D

ADGIJLOR (in modplug notation)
...which is........
1 4 7 9 10 12 15 18 (where note #20 is the 19TET octave)
AKA
0 3 6 8 9 11 14 17 (where note #19 is the 19TET octave)

Thus the nearest JI ratios are (more or less)

1/1 1
10/9 4
5/4 7
4/3 9
18/13 10 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3/2 12
5/3 15
13/7 18

The largest noticable difference between this and 12TET appears to be the
18/13...a "tri-decimal augmented fourth". This, coincidentally, isn't all too
far from the 11/8 "un-decimal semi-augmented" fourth I use in many of my new
scales to give a "neutral tone" nature I use to swap between "modes" and tonal
"root" within my new scales and songs.

ALSO note that 18/13, 13/7, and 10/9 get not too far from forming a third
major chord (thus giving me, in a way, the chance to have 3 tonal resting points
instead of the two usual ones IE the tonic and dominant tones that form the
basis of major chords under the typical diatonic scale).

For those who missed it...the original song MP3 is in the djtrancendance
folder in the MMM archive and is called "Melancholy in Yellow". And I had no
idea about any of the above theoretical points when I wrote that song...it was
done completely by ear.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

9/17/2010 6:36:32 PM

Carl>" Some very nice touches here. I did find the main loop a bit repetitive
by the end "

Main loop is in...the drum "loop" (which isn't really a loop because it's
made from one-shot drum hits, but is repeated a lot) or the melodic theme?
Admittedly...the production was a bit shallow IE neither the piano nor drum
hits vary in velocity. I'll make sure to keep note of that for any future
songs.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

9/17/2010 11:48:51 PM

Michael wrote:

> Main loop is in...the drum "loop" (which isn't really a loop because
>it's made from one-shot drum hits, but is repeated a lot) or the melodic
>theme?

The main piano line that starts off the piece. -C.

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

12/15/2010 2:15:09 PM

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12/31/2010 4:35:33 AM

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12/31/2010 11:53:01 PM

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1/1/2011 9:20:57 AM

Hello,

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File : /djtrancendance/8over7 4over3 weird 5th chord.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Triad with 8/7 * 4/3 = 32/21 odd fifth...strange way to acheive resolve

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/1/2011 10:08:05 AM

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File : /djtrancendance/diminished 5th chords minor major suspended minor suspended.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Chords using the "bad" 22/15 diminished 5th under my Dimension Scale system

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/1/2011 10:57:47 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /djtrancendance/diminished 5th chords minor major suspended NEW.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Major minor suspended chords using the 22/15 diminished 5th

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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/1/2011 11:03:50 AM

Please disregard the first upload (which I DELETED)...on the first upload I got
one of the intervals wrong.

Also note...this (hopefully) gives a somewhat realistic idea of how (or how
not?) convincing the 22/15 diminished fifth can be for compositional use in
major/minor/suspended style triads with that "neutral/swappable" tone feel we've
been discussing on and off on this list.

Note the 22/15 "diminished 5th" is used in my 9-tone "Dimension" scale
system...it occurs twice as a 5th...the seven other 5ths are within 7 cents of a
perfect fifth IE 3/2.

The new link is
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/diminished%205th%20chords%20minor%20major%20suspended%20NEW.mp3

________________________________
From: "MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com" <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 12:57:47 PM
Subject: [MMM] New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/diminished 5th chords minor major suspended
NEW.mp3

Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Major minor suspended chords using the 22/15 diminished 5th

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/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/diminished%205th%20chords%20minor%20major%20suspended%20NEW.mp3

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/1/2011 11:56:03 AM

the 22/15 fits well into Pelog territory, hence a 9 tone would make sence

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 2/01/11 6:03 AM, Michael wrote:
>
> Please disregard the first upload (which I DELETED)...on the > first upload I got
> one of the intervals wrong.
>
> Also note...this (hopefully) gives a somewhat realistic idea > of how (or how
> not?) convincing the 22/15 diminished fifth can be for > compositional use in
> major/minor/suspended style triads with that > "neutral/swappable" tone feel we've
> been discussing on and off on this list.
>
> Note the 22/15 "diminished 5th" is used in my 9-tone > "Dimension" scale
> system...it occurs twice as a 5th...the seven other 5ths are > within 7 cents of a
> perfect fifth IE 3/2.
>
> The new link is
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/diminished%205th%20chords%20minor%20major%20suspended%20NEW.mp3
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>" > <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>>
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 12:57:47 PM
> Subject: [MMM] New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /djtrancendance/diminished 5th chords minor major > suspended
> NEW.mp3
>
> Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@... > <mailto:djtrancendance%40yahoo.com>>
> Description : Major minor suspended chords using the 22/15 > diminished 5th
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/diminished%205th%20chords%20minor%20major%20suspended%20NEW.mp3
>
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> djtrancendance <djtrancendance@... > <mailto:djtrancendance%40yahoo.com>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/1/2011 11:56:19 AM

the 22/15 fits well into Pelog territory, hence a 9 tone would make sense

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/1/2011 4:18:45 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
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File : /djtrancendance/QUADRA.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Melody/counterpoint using the Quadra scale (includes the "odd" 9/7, 14/9,12/7,10/7,7/6, 7/5 dyads)

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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/1/2011 4:27:56 PM

The below scale "Quadra" is my best attempt (so far) to make a dyadic
optimized (read 8 cents or so maximum error from desired dyads) scale featuring
lots of supermajor/superminor triads and the "odd" 9/7,14/9,12/7,10/7,7/6, 7/5
intervals not present in my "Dimension" scale system...specifically the 9/7,
which I believe is very emotionally useful and highly under-rated.

It still sounds a lot more tense than the "Dimension" scale system so
far...but, go figure: it has only 2 perfect fifths and the rest include one
22/15 "diminished fifth" and four wide 14/9 fifths...not exactly a Kosher setup.
:-D

You can hear it at:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/QUADRA.mp3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/1/2011 4:39:15 PM

I can buy 22/15 as a fifth, but the only place I can see 14/9 as a "fifth" is in an augmented chord. If you play it with anything resembling a minor 3rd or a perfect 4th between it and the root, it's just going to sound like an inversion of something else.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> The below scale "Quadra" is my best attempt (so far) to make a dyadic
> optimized (read 8 cents or so maximum error from desired dyads) scale featuring
> lots of supermajor/superminor triads and the "odd" 9/7,14/9,12/7,10/7,7/6, 7/5
> intervals not present in my "Dimension" scale system...specifically the 9/7,
> which I believe is very emotionally useful and highly under-rated.
>
>
> It still sounds a lot more tense than the "Dimension" scale system so
> far...but, go figure: it has only 2 perfect fifths and the rest include one
> 22/15 "diminished fifth" and four wide 14/9 fifths...not exactly a Kosher setup.
> :-D
>
> You can hear it at:
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/QUADRA.mp3
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/1/2011 4:45:26 PM

sounds to me like a suspended 4th or "add 2nd w/o the 3rd" type sonority

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:20 PM, <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /djtrancendance/8over7 4over3 weird 5th chord.mp3
> Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...<djtrancendance%40yahoo.com>>
>
> Description : Triad with 8/7 * 4/3 = 32/21 odd fifth...strange way to
> acheive resolve
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/8over7%204over3%20weird%205th%20chord.mp3
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> djtrancendance <djtrancendance@... <djtrancendance%40yahoo.com>>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/1/2011 8:50:16 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /djtrancendance/PENTRA.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Melody with my exotic Pentra scale using only 3 fifths: one perfect 5th, one augmented fifth, one diminished fifth...and exotic 7/6, 9/7, 11/7, 12/11...intervals

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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/1/2011 9:09:02 PM

Melodic example:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRA.mp3

This is, in my opinion, perhaps my best 7-tone scale yet in a balance between
stability and uniqueness.
Incredibly and purposefully weird, yet (at least to my ears) quite stable
sounding.

Some unique features:
1) Has ONLY slightly de-tuned 5 fifths of varying types, two 11/7 augmented
fifths, two perfect 5ths, and one 22/15 diminished fifth.
2) Has mostly melodic intervals between 11/10 and 10/9, but one 8/7-like
interval and one semitone around 17/16. Consider it a "one and a half semitone
scale" that's relatively favorable for clustered triads due to having less than
2 semitones. :-D
3) Has strong 11/7, 8/7, 18/11, 9/7, 11/7, 4/3, 5/3, 15/8, 11/6, 9/5, 7/5, 11/9,
11/6, 15/11, and 10/7 dyadic intervals (assuming 8 cents or better accuracy is
strong...it sure is compared to 12TET's 13-ish cent accuracy).
This one jumps all over the 5, 7, 11, and 15 limit giving lots of different
tonal color.

4) Created as an irregular temperament...not circular or TET-based.

If anyone thinks they can find good compositional use for this...let me knew
and I'll convert it to a SCALA file....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/2/2011 3:13:15 AM

OK Michael
What is the worse sounded scale you can some up with

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 2/01/11 4:09 PM, Michael wrote:
>
> Melodic example:
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRA.mp3 >
>
> This is, in my opinion, perhaps my best 7-tone scale yet in a > balance between
> stability and uniqueness.
> Incredibly and purposefully weird, yet (at least to my ears) > quite stable
> sounding.
>
> Some unique features:
> 1) Has ONLY slightly de-tuned 5 fifths of varying types, two > 11/7 augmented
> fifths, two perfect 5ths, and one 22/15 diminished fifth.
> 2) Has mostly melodic intervals between 11/10 and 10/9, but > one 8/7-like
> interval and one semitone around 17/16. Consider it a "one and > a half semitone
> scale" that's relatively favorable for clustered triads due to > having less than
> 2 semitones. :-D
> 3) Has strong 11/7, 8/7, 18/11, 9/7, 11/7, 4/3, 5/3, 15/8, > 11/6, 9/5, 7/5, 11/9,
> 11/6, 15/11, and 10/7 dyadic intervals (assuming 8 cents or > better accuracy is
> strong...it sure is compared to 12TET's 13-ish cent accuracy).
> This one jumps all over the 5, 7, 11, and 15 limit giving lots > of different
> tonal color.
>
> 4) Created as an irregular temperament...not circular or > TET-based.
>
> If anyone thinks they can find good compositional use for > this...let me knew
> and I'll convert it to a SCALA file....
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/2/2011 4:38:30 AM

Can we have chord progression examples for these latest scales?

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> Melodic example:
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRA.mp3
>
> This is, in my opinion, perhaps my best 7-tone scale yet in a balance between
> stability and uniqueness.
> Incredibly and purposefully weird, yet (at least to my ears) quite stable
> sounding.
>
> Some unique features:
> 1) Has ONLY slightly de-tuned 5 fifths of varying types, two 11/7 augmented
> fifths, two perfect 5ths, and one 22/15 diminished fifth.
> 2) Has mostly melodic intervals between 11/10 and 10/9, but one 8/7-like
> interval and one semitone around 17/16. Consider it a "one and a half semitone
> scale" that's relatively favorable for clustered triads due to having less than
> 2 semitones. :-D
> 3) Has strong 11/7, 8/7, 18/11, 9/7, 11/7, 4/3, 5/3, 15/8, 11/6, 9/5, 7/5, 11/9,
> 11/6, 15/11, and 10/7 dyadic intervals (assuming 8 cents or better accuracy is
> strong...it sure is compared to 12TET's 13-ish cent accuracy).
> This one jumps all over the 5, 7, 11, and 15 limit giving lots of different
> tonal color.
>
> 4) Created as an irregular temperament...not circular or TET-based.
>
> If anyone thinks they can find good compositional use for this...let me knew
> and I'll convert it to a SCALA file....
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 8:55:34 AM

Kraig>"OK Michael
What is the worse sounded scale you can some up with"

And this is a rhetorical question?
Admittedly, this scale sounds very tense. Stable, but tense. In fact, even
raw 7TET sounds less tense. I could not find a way (so far) to get ratios like
11/7 and 7/6 both into a 7-tone scale (and avoid using a lot of standard 5ths)
without doing so.

Actually looking back...despite the numbers coming out beautifully, the melody
sounds a lot tenser coming back than it did before...maybe it's because I stared
at it too long last night and became "too used to it"...not sure.

Counter question...what do you think is the best scale to compose with
containing 7 notes and the 7/6 ratio?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 9:08:29 AM

Oz>"Can we have chord progression examples for these latest scales?"

Just uploaded "Pentra chords" to the file section as an example of the Pentra
scale.
If that works for you and others...I'll continue to do the for the other scales.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/2/2011 9:11:32 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/PENTRAchords2.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Pentra scale chord progression (copy)

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRAchords2.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,

djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/2/2011 9:17:14 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/quadra chords.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Chord progression in Quadra scale

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/quadra%20chords.mp3

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djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/2/2011 9:18:18 AM

So, what is the scale used for these chords (in ratios and/or cents)?

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> Oz>"Can we have chord progression examples for these latest scales?"
>
> Just uploaded "Pentra chords" to the file section as an example of the Pentra
> scale.
> If that works for you and others...I'll continue to do the for the other scales.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/2/2011 9:05:50 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/PENTRAchords.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Pentra scale chord progression

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRAchords.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 9:36:32 AM

Ozan>"So, what is the scale used for these chords (in ratios and/or cents)?"

It's de-tuned/"irregularly tempered" versions of the following ratios:

Pentra:
8/7
9/7
10/7
25/16 (dead in between 11/7 and 14/9)
12/7
11/6
2/1

Quadra:
7/6
9/7
7/5
14/9
12/7
9/5
2/1

Come to think of it, I think Quadra sounds more natural/relaxed. I spent so
much time working on tweaking Pentra...I guess my mind was playing tricks on
me. The bizarre thing is Pentra actually seems to change it's "root tone" from
Quadra, even in the same key, it's as if my mind shifts the tuning a semi-tone
or so transposition upward.

I'm not sure if these scales have been created elsewhere...but I came up
with these ratios by figuring them out, and not by copying someone else's scale
(although I ran into things like the Ptolemy Homalon scale by doing the same
thing...)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/2/2011 10:02:24 AM

Honestly it doesn't sound much different to my ears from what you were
working on a couple years ago.

Chris

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> Melodic example:
>
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRA.mp3
>
> This is, in my opinion, perhaps my best 7-tone scale yet in a balance
> between
> stability and uniqueness.
> Incredibly and purposefully weird, yet (at least to my ears) quite stable
> sounding.
>
> Some unique features:
> 1) Has ONLY slightly de-tuned 5 fifths of varying types, two 11/7 augmented
>
> fifths, two perfect 5ths, and one 22/15 diminished fifth.
> 2) Has mostly melodic intervals between 11/10 and 10/9, but one 8/7-like
> interval and one semitone around 17/16. Consider it a "one and a half
> semitone
> scale" that's relatively favorable for clustered triads due to having less
> than
> 2 semitones. :-D
> 3) Has strong 11/7, 8/7, 18/11, 9/7, 11/7, 4/3, 5/3, 15/8, 11/6, 9/5, 7/5,
> 11/9,
> 11/6, 15/11, and 10/7 dyadic intervals (assuming 8 cents or better accuracy
> is
> strong...it sure is compared to 12TET's 13-ish cent accuracy).
> This one jumps all over the 5, 7, 11, and 15 limit giving lots of different
>
> tonal color.
>
> 4) Created as an irregular temperament...not circular or TET-based.
>
> If anyone thinks they can find good compositional use for this...let me
> knew
> and I'll convert it to a SCALA file....
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 10:38:18 AM

> Melodic example:
>
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRA.mp3

Chris>"Honestly it doesn't sound much different to my ears from what you were
working on a couple years ago."
The goal was purposefully to approach interval like 8/7, 7/6, 11/7, 9/7,
wide fifths IE 14/9, and other such intervals I had purposefully avoided in the
past (much because I didn't like how most of the dyads sounded individually) to
see what happened and if I could find anything good in them.

I actually got the idea from all the discussion on the list about how bad
fifths and the 9/7 interval can form good chords and doubts about if only well
HE-ranked intervals can work well in chords.

The only thing I can think of...is I think my old PHI scale had an 8/7 in
there somewhere...but that's it. Or, which old scale of minedo you think this
scale sounds like?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/2/2011 1:23:19 PM

Kraig wrote:

>OK Michael
>What is the worse sounded scale you can some up with

An excellent question! -C.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/2/2011 2:50:36 PM

Maybe it is unfair to single Michael out~
In General , i am losing a perspective as to what one might say is bad to see how it contrast with what one says sounds good. Perhaps the real thing might be is that many can use just about anything without a problem.
That is fine, but then I don't understand why something would stand out as a 'good' scale or why anyone would bother inventing one unless it offered something another did not.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 3/01/11 8:23 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> Kraig wrote:
>
> >OK Michael
> >What is the worse sounded scale you can some up with
>
> An excellent question! -C.
>
>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/2/2011 4:02:39 PM

I asked Michael this very question quite some time ago, and with the scale he produced I composed rather a nice piece of music called "Atlantean Geometry", which I seem to recall sharing (though perhaps not here on MMM). I'd be curious to see what he could come up with now, as I demonstrated to him that his scale of unequally-spaced steps actually looked quite alright in one of its other modes.

For my part, here's one of the worst-sounding octave-repeating 7-note scales I can come up with (values in cents):

0000.00
0025.00
0050.00
0075.00
0100.00
0125.00
0150.00
(1200.00)

If anyone can make a nice-sounding piece with THAT, I'll be quite surprised.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Kraig wrote:
>
> >OK Michael
> >What is the worse sounded scale you can some up with
>
> An excellent question! -C.
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/2/2011 5:31:35 PM

I don't know because I haven't kept track of the names - however the melody
/ chords sounds like the same piece you have been using as demonstration for
a while - nothing wrong with working towards what you want - my observation
is that it sounds very "Michael S." and doesn't seem to have developed into
different territory. My apologies in advance as this is a touchy subject
for many.

Chris

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> > Melodic example:
> >
> >
> >
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/PENTRA.mp3
>
> Chris>"Honestly it doesn't sound much different to my ears from what you
> were
>
> working on a couple years ago."
> The goal was purposefully to approach interval like 8/7, 7/6, 11/7, 9/7,
> wide fifths IE 14/9, and other such intervals I had purposefully avoided in
> the
> past (much because I didn't like how most of the dyads sounded
> individually) to
> see what happened and if I could find anything good in them.
>
> I actually got the idea from all the discussion on the list about how bad
> fifths and the 9/7 interval can form good chords and doubts about if only
> well
> HE-ranked intervals can work well in chords.
>
> The only thing I can think of...is I think my old PHI scale had an 8/7 in
> there somewhere...but that's it. Or, which old scale of minedo you think
> this
> scale sounds like?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 6:05:42 PM

Chris>"however the melody / chords sounds like the same piece you have been
using as demonstration for
a while"

Funny, because it's an all new melody, not a copied one at all. It was also
more of a test of the tuning and its tonal colors...then it was a test to
develop new compositional tendencies.

Granted, my "tuning demos" have always used 3-4 droning notes in a melody so
that the droning melodic notes double as chords (so you can hopefully hear both
clear melodic and chord aspects of the scale). If that for some reason bugs you
or anyone else...let me know and I can try to make more "original" tuning demo
styles.

Man, it's amazing how I can simply write a well-intended simple/repeated 7
second melody example and have it be interpreted as so controversial...doh?!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/2/2011 6:36:00 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/Alltheworst2.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Melody/humorous attempt at world's most dissonant scale

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Alltheworst2.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 6:45:53 PM

>>Kraig wrote:

>>OK Michael
>>What is the worse sounded scale you can some up with

Here you go boys (and girls?)....
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Alltheworst2.mp3

Prepare for absolute torture!
The same melody I played for the Quadra and Pentra scales in a truly deformed
"max dissonance" scale. To be fair...I used exactly the same number of notes,
7, and didn't not cheat by spacing them close together IE no gap smaller than
about a 12TET semitone.

Absolutely nothing in here nears 5-or-less-limit and it's full of not only
11+ limit ratios, but by least favorite ones by far! There are also about 4
wolf fifths...and nothing even within 13 cents of a regular 5th.
There are a couple (read 2 or so) consonant 9-limit dyads in there (within a 2
octave span)...but that's about it!
And if this isn't bad enough...I might even take a second attempt and try to
kill those too!

Did I mention my g/f was screaming for me to turn it off? (lol)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/2/2011 6:54:55 PM

Michael wrote:

>Here you go boys (and girls?)....
>/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Allt
>heworst2.mp3
>
>Prepare for absolute torture!
> The same melody I played for the Quadra and Pentra scales

Except the Pentra example doesn't have the bass.

Can you provide the scales for Quadra and the Alltheworst examples
in Scala format?

-Carl

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/2/2011 6:55:47 PM

It doesn't in the least sound terrible to me.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
>>> Kraig wrote:
>
>>> OK Michael
>>> What is the worse sounded scale you can some up with
>
> Here you go boys (and girls?)....
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Alltheworst2.mp3
>
>
> Prepare for absolute torture!
> The same melody I played for the Quadra and Pentra scales in a truly deformed
> "max dissonance" scale. To be fair...I used exactly the same number of notes,
> 7, and didn't not cheat by spacing them close together IE no gap smaller than
> about a 12TET semitone.
>
>
> Absolutely nothing in here nears 5-or-less-limit and it's full of not only
> 11+ limit ratios, but by least favorite ones by far! There are also about 4
> wolf fifths...and nothing even within 13 cents of a regular 5th.
> There are a couple (read 2 or so) consonant 9-limit dyads in there (within a 2
> octave span)...but that's about it!
> And if this isn't bad enough...I might even take a second attempt and try to
> kill those too!
>
> Did I mention my g/f was screaming for me to turn it off? (lol)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

1/2/2011 7:35:43 PM

Yeah I think its the dronish-ness and general alien-ish-ness. Which isn't bad understand.

And my wife usually asks for anything micro to be headphones only. You are lucky your GF only screams about the bad ones.

Chris
*

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael <djtrancendance@...>
Sender: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 18:05:42
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic

Chris>"however the melody / chords sounds like the same piece you have been
using as demonstration for
a while"

Funny, because it's an all new melody, not a copied one at all. It was also
more of a test of the tuning and its tonal colors...then it was a test to
develop new compositional tendencies.

Man, it's amazing how I can simply write a well-intended simple/repeated 7
second melody example and have it be interpreted as so controversial...doh?!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 7:44:23 PM

Carl>"Except the Pentra example doesn't have the bass."
Fair point...I forgot to re-add the bass channel in the Pentra scale
example...will do so soon and replace the old version.

>"Can you provide the scales for Quadra and the Alltheworst examples in Scala
>format?"

Sure. I'll work on converting Quadra, but here is the "Alltheworst" scale in
Scl format.

! E:\bad.scl
!
badscale
7
!
1067/1000
117/100
59/40
823/500
347/200
909/500
2/1

I'll re-post both the Scala files to the file section soon as work. For the
record, although when I first made "Pentra" I thought it was a
stronger/more-stable scale, upon looking back several independent times I'm
pretty sure "Quadra" is the stronger scale.

So I think comparing Quadra and The Bad Scale is a good analysis of "stable
vs. unstable high-limit scales"...because both contain tons of similarly
high-limit and un-12TET-like ratios...but

A) Quadra focuses on using my more favorite sets of the higher IE 9 and
11-limit ratios and imperfect-fifths...
A2) "badscale" focuses on my least favorite of the higher-limit dyads. Even on
the rare occasions it hits a 7-limit dyad IE the 2 or 7/6's in the entire scale
from any root, it makes the fifths around it bad enough to kill any sense of
consonance (hopefully).
B1) Quadra focuses or arranging the higher-limit ratios in an order so they
align with the few lower-limit ratios in the scale to produce passable chords..
B2)."Badscale" focussed on making sure any possible triads contain one to no
decently low-limit dyads in possible triads to ensure chaos. :-D

My "other" question is....how does my "badscale" compare in listening tests
to, say, a scale based on the "golden mediant" method of achieving maximum
dissonance?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 7:55:44 PM

Chris>"Yeah I think its the dronish-ness and general alien-ish-ness. Which isn't
bad understand."

Indeed, the dronish-ness has always been intentional in my test melodies to
"make the melodies act as chords".
Far as alien-ish-ness...I can only guess extensive use of the 14/9 fifth,
7/6, 9/7 and other odd intervals (in both Quadra and Pentra) leads to this (or
do you have any idea what's doing that to your ears)?
Again I focused on trying to make a scale that can make solid chords out of
intervals I usually avoid like the plague...staying away from 22/15, 11/9,
11/10, 11/6, and other higher-limit intervals I usually favor for "sense of
stability despite being high-limit".

>"And my wife usually asks for anything micro to be headphones only. You are
>lucky your GF only screams about the bad ones. "
Indeed! My g/f has a weird ear...she tends to favor the same ratios I
do...even if I don't ask for her opinion or even say what I'm playing. Soon as
I hit a tritone or 20/11 or 34/23 or 16/11, or some other ratio (that's over
7-limit and not in my "higher limits favorites list"), she breaks out the
headphones & tells me to wear them. :-D

The best thing is, to her, generally anything 7-limit or under is relatively
safe...and tons of people I know (even) trip over 7-limit.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/2/2011 8:05:07 PM

Igs>"I asked Michael this very question quite some time ago, and with the scale
he produced I composed rather a nice piece of music called "Atlantean
Geometry"....as I demonstrated to him that his scale of unequally-spaced steps
actually looked quite alright in one of its other modes."

Here's the kicker, my new "bad" scale I made since then...was made using
the SAME optimization program I made for optimizing dyadic consonance (IE for
Pentra, Quadra, and the Dimension scale I used for the Untwelve competition).
And that program....checks ALL possible dyads within 2 full octaves for
accuracy.

So if there's even the vaguest chance of much lining up...it's at least
over a 3 octave gap and most likely still incredibly awkward sounding....

Igs>"For my part, here's one of the worst-sounding octave-repeating 7-note
scales I can come up with (values in cents):

0000.00
0025.00
0050.00
0075.00
0100.00
0125.00
0150.00
(1200.00)"

Yeah but that's clustering which, IMVHO, is cheating. The real issue with
said-scale above I see that would cause extreme dissonance is that all the
intervals (minus the octave itself) beat wildly against each other since the
critical band is most violent near around 20/19.

However, if you play, say 0 and 25 cents...you'll likely just get a chorus
effect and a fair sense of unison/consonance...because the critical band curve
actually becomes less dissonant in very very small gaps...although it's maximum
in fairly small gaps.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/2/2011 8:21:15 PM

Well, don't keep us in suspense, Michael! What's the scale used in your max-dissonance example? I'll be wanting to give it a whirl, of course. I'll even let you suggest some patches/timbres to use to maximize the harshness before I try to compose in it.

But I still believe that, short of clustering, there is no way to make a scale that sounds totally "bad"--regardless of timbre! I've plowed through 11-EDO, 8-EDO, and 13-EDO with purely harmonic timbres (piano, guitar, etc.) and found ways to make all three sound at least as nice as 12-EDO, so I say: "bring it!"

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Igs>"I asked Michael this very question quite some time ago, and with the scale
> he produced I composed rather a nice piece of music called "Atlantean
> Geometry"....as I demonstrated to him that his scale of unequally-spaced steps
> actually looked quite alright in one of its other modes."
>
> Here's the kicker, my new "bad" scale I made since then...was made using
> the SAME optimization program I made for optimizing dyadic consonance (IE for
> Pentra, Quadra, and the Dimension scale I used for the Untwelve competition).
> And that program....checks ALL possible dyads within 2 full octaves for
> accuracy.
>
> So if there's even the vaguest chance of much lining up...it's at least
> over a 3 octave gap and most likely still incredibly awkward sounding....
>
> Igs>"For my part, here's one of the worst-sounding octave-repeating 7-note
> scales I can come up with (values in cents):
>
> 0000.00
> 0025.00
> 0050.00
> 0075.00
> 0100.00
> 0125.00
> 0150.00
> (1200.00)"
>
> Yeah but that's clustering which, IMVHO, is cheating. The real issue with
> said-scale above I see that would cause extreme dissonance is that all the
> intervals (minus the octave itself) beat wildly against each other since the
> critical band is most violent near around 20/19.
>
> However, if you play, say 0 and 25 cents...you'll likely just get a chorus
> effect and a fair sense of unison/consonance...because the critical band curve
> actually becomes less dissonant in very very small gaps...although it's maximum
> in fairly small gaps.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/3/2011 2:01:07 AM

According to my calculations, the worst ET < 100 for 5-limit
harmony is 68, with this val:

< 68 108 159 |

And the worst for the 7-limit is

< 93 148 216 262 |

Knock yourself out! -Carl

At 02:50 PM 1/2/2011, Kraig wrote:
>Maybe it is unfair to single Michael out~
>In General , i am losing a perspective as to what one might say
>is bad to see how it contrast with what one says sounds good.
>Perhaps the real thing might be is that many can use just about
>anything without a problem.
>That is fine, but then I don't understand why something would
>stand out as a 'good' scale or why anyone would bother inventing
>one unless it offered something another did not.

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/3/2011 8:04:08 AM

Kraig>Perhaps the real thing might be is that many can use just about
>anything without a problem.
>That is fine, but then I don't understand why something would
>stand out as a 'good' scale or why anyone would bother inventing
>one unless it offered something another did not.

My argument has consistently been that a good scale is simply a scale that
offers more options within easy reach to the composer so far as expressing mood.

1) On one hand there is no "bad" scale...IE even the worst scale has at
least one or two moods they can express well.
2) On the other hand, some scales and tunings have a huge variety of moods.
IE in 31TET, you can express tons of 3,5,7, and even some 11-limit intervals and
15-limit intervals (IE 22/15). So, in turn, you can pretty well summarize
Middle-Eastern or perhaps even Pelog style scale feel, then switch back to
Western scales all under one system. 22TET is also supposedly such a system,
full of loads of options for both dissonant and consonant moods.
3) A flip-side of "bad" scale...is since they are fairly limited in mood
they are ALSO fairly predictable in mood (IE there is LESS difference between
maximum dissonance and consonance achievable in a "bad" system) and thus, in
that sense, actually easier to listen to. Thus you get "diminishing marginal
returns" so far as how dissonant you get...and too much dissonance actually
pushes you back toward a different type of consonance AKA "predictable
ambiguity".

By choosing #2 (assuming you only had to use one scale system for an entire
composition) over #1...IMVHO you simply give yourself more options.

BTW NOTE I RATE "GOOD" AS BEING ABLE TO EASILY SHOW MORE MOODS AT THE HANDS OF A
COMPOSED, NOT AS SIMPLY BEING MORE CONSONANT!
A) IE if I took a scale that was a straight harmonic series or even moreso just
stacked octaves like 1/1 2/1 4/1...I would rate THAT as a "bad" scale as well.
:-D
B) On the other hand, if I took a scale whether dissonance of each chord in
a scale was so high the chords "blur" against each other and the mood
difference is negligable...that's ALSO "bad"...that's where "too much
dissonance" becomes an issue and the mind says "there are rarely different
sounding types of noise".
C) Same goes if I took a scale that had lots of consonance/dissonance
option...but the scale had to be HUGE (and thus hard for the composer to access
the options easily)...that would ALSO be "bad".

The trick, in my opinion, is to find scales that give loads of options with
a good emotional-options-per-notes-in-scale ratio. I think that by and large
explains 12TET: it has a ton of distinct sounding options for both consonance
and dissonance and a very good options-per-note ratio. 31TET has more options
but a worse option-per-note ratio to me, for example. And my 9-tone Dimension
scale system, for example, aims to be "good" by taking most of the
emotional/mood options (minus transposition) of 31TET and squeezing it into 9
tones (you only get 4 or so different "modes", not the 31 of 31TET or the 12 of
12TET). What ever you do there is always compromise...if you get more options,
you almost certainly lose some far as "options per note".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/3/2011 9:40:29 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> According to my calculations, the worst ET < 100 for 5-limit
> harmony is 68, with this val:
>
> < 68 108 159 |
>
> And the worst for the 7-limit is
>
> < 93 148 216 262 |
>
> Knock yourself out! -Carl

Really? Looks like you're doing something like "badness=error*complexity" or something, and I don't think that's necessarily the best measure for how a scale will actually sound. Clearly, the first scale will sound a whole lot better for 5-limit harmony than 11-EDO.

-Igs

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

1/3/2011 10:05:05 AM

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 12:40 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> >
> > According to my calculations, the worst ET < 100 for 5-limit
> > harmony is 68, with this val:
> >
> > < 68 108 159 |
>
> Really? Looks like you're doing something like "badness=error*complexity" or something, and I don't think that's necessarily the best measure for how a scale will actually sound. Clearly, the first scale will sound a whole lot better for 5-limit harmony than 11-EDO.

Yeah, there has to be some kind of complexity measure thrown in there,
since 68 subdivides 34, and 34 is awesome for 5-limit harmony.
Probably my favorite non-meantone 5-limit tuning.

68 is also amazing for 11-limit harmony; it is to 17-tet what 72 is to 12-tet.

-Mike

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/3/2011 12:06:40 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> Yeah, there has to be some kind of complexity measure thrown in there,
> since 68 subdivides 34, and 34 is awesome for 5-limit harmony.
> Probably my favorite non-meantone 5-limit tuning.

Well, the mapping he gave maps 5 to something around 405 cents, NOT the 34-EDO 5-limit major 3rd. But still, it only calculates as "bad" because 68 is a lot of notes to use to get error even worse than 12-tET. So it's the worst in terms of being maximally-impractical (i.e. it'd just be silly to use that temperament because you can get much much better results with a much smaller EDO), but it's not the worst in terms of sound. To calculate the worst tuning in terms of sound, one need only look at error.

> 68 is also amazing for 11-limit harmony; it is to 17-tet what 72 is to 12-tet.

It's a pretty stellar tuning in general with certain mappings, but of course it's also capable of some really terrible mappings.

-Igs

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/3/2011 12:13:51 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> According to my calculations, the worst ET < 100 for 5-limit
> harmony is 68, with this val:
>
> < 68 108 159 |

Um, yeah? It isn't nearly as bad as some of the stuff Igs likes, although maybe if it gets too bad you don't count it as 5-limit. But it seems to me this is better than 15-et, for instance, and obviously better than 17et. The fifth is fine, being the good old 17et fifth, and the third is too freakin' sharp, but there's worse out there.

> And the worst for the 7-limit is
>
> < 93 148 216 262 |

This is actually a good tuning for superpyth temperament. If anyone wants to try it, fire up Scala, stick a fifth of 709.67742 cents in under make new linear temperament, and (probably) choose 12, 17 or 22 for the size of scale.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/3/2011 12:25:33 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> C) Same goes if I took a scale that had lots of consonance/dissonance
> option...but the scale had to be HUGE (and thus hard for the composer to access
> the options easily)...that would ALSO be "bad".

No, that would probably be excellent, if you know how to deal with such scales.

1/3/2011 12:35:23 PM

Igs wrote:

>To calculate the worst tuning in terms of
>sound, one need only look at error.

Right, and that only covers the harmony part, not anything
else about music. -C.

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/3/2011 12:42:40 PM

Gene wrote:

>> According to my calculations, the worst ET < 100 for 5-limit
>> harmony is 68, with this val:
>>
>> < 68 108 159 |
>
>Um, yeah?

You're right! It's only the worst of the best. I only flipped
one inequality when I needed to flip two. Let's try that again:

2.3.5
<99 158 231|

2.3.5.7
<99 158 231 279|

That should do it. -C.

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/3/2011 1:45:59 PM

Igs>Really? Looks like you're doing something like
>"badness=error*complexity" or something,

Carl>"That is what badness is."

Oh man the technicalities!
I didn't mean Carl's definition of" badness", which I've heard repeatedly as the
formal definition in many places (not arguing with it...) but is not what I'm
trying to convey or "challenge" here at all.

What I really mean by a "bad" scale is one that gets very little range of
easily accessible emotional variation per notes.

To me, again, there are two types of ways to get "badness"...one of which can
actually involve "too much consonance"

A) Ratios so dissonant they just conform to a single noisy "blur"...which means
almost anything written in that tuning is reduced to very few moods or a single
mood that can perhaps best be described as "predictable ambiguity".
B) Ratios (often very consonant) that are so alike they basically convey the
same emotion IE a chain of octaves as a scale like 1/1 2/1 4/1 8/1 etc. Yes,
I'd say a bare harmonic series as a scale is actually a pretty "bad" scale.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/3/2011 1:47:35 PM

Igs>To calculate the worst tuning in terms of
>sound, one need only look at error.

Carl>"Right, and that only covers the harmony part, not anything else about
music. -C."

Unless you, as I do, believe harmony and melody are most often very
inter-related (IE your mind hearing a monophonic arpeggio as a chord).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/3/2011 2:12:00 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Unless you, as I do, believe harmony and melody are most often very
> inter-related (IE your mind hearing a monophonic arpeggio as a chord).
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sometimes they are inter-related, and sometimes they are quite at odds. It depends on the type of harmony you are going for and your method of getting it. For some MOS scales, the versions with best harmony often have the worst (i.e. least-nuanced) melody. Blackwood[10] for instance: the version with the lowest average damage to both 5/4 and 6/5 will have a small step somewhere around 84 cents and a large step around 156 cents, which (at least to my ears) sounds much worse melodically than a version with a large step around 190 cents and a small step around 50 cents.

-Igs

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/3/2011 5:47:52 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/More melodies in Alltheworst scale.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : More Melodies in my "most sour possible scale"

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/More%20melodies%20in%20Alltheworst%20scale.mp3

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🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/3/2011 5:50:12 PM

>>> According to my calculations, the worst ET < 100 for 5-limit
>>> harmony is 68, with this val:
>>>
>>> < 68 108 159 |
>>
>>Um, yeah?
>
>You're right! It's only the worst of the best. I only flipped
>one inequality when I needed to flip two.

Meh, on 3rd thought I think the worst of the best is better.
So I stick with my original answer. -Carl

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/3/2011 5:54:29 PM

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/More%20melodies%20in%20Alltheworst%20scale.mp3

IMVHO this is a dead-clear example of the paradox of a "bad scale" IE a
scale with virtually all sour intervals.

In this very short piece/demo I went through huge lengths to find the few
note combinations I found promoted a sense of stability (read: reasonable
balance between consonance and dissonance) and the greatest range of tonal color
possible with this scale.

However, despite such compositional efforts, notice no matter how crazy and
adventurous I get with the melodies...the mood seems to always point toward the
same place (almost as if you can imagine one ghastly fundamental droning the
same tone through the entire piece)..

So, IMVHO, the scale is good for that one limited mood...but very little else.
And to get a wider variety of moods sounding good, I figure, the obvious path
is to have more good intervals available where the mood of each good interval
varies widely.

Thoughts?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/4/2011 12:26:06 AM

That's not the limitation of the scale, it's the limitation of the
composer. The style you exhibit relies on raw melodies that keep
repeating. Try to think more imaginative music, with variated rhythms,
unaccustomed tension-relaxation chord progressions, expressiveness,
whatnot...

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/More%20melodies%20in%20Alltheworst%20scale.mp3
>
>
> IMVHO this is a dead-clear example of the paradox of a "bad scale" IE a
> scale with virtually all sour intervals.
>
> In this very short piece/demo I went through huge lengths to find the few
> note combinations I found promoted a sense of stability (read: reasonable
> balance between consonance and dissonance) and the greatest range of tonal color
> possible with this scale.
>
> However, despite such compositional efforts, notice no matter how crazy and
> adventurous I get with the melodies...the mood seems to always point toward the
> same place (almost as if you can imagine one ghastly fundamental droning the
> same tone through the entire piece)..
>
> So, IMVHO, the scale is good for that one limited mood...but very little else.
> And to get a wider variety of moods sounding good, I figure, the obvious path
> is to have more good intervals available where the mood of each good interval
> varies widely.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/4/2011 4:42:42 AM

I think you could write something like this in any almost tuning and
it would sound similar. I don't think the tuning is the issue so much
as the motive you have chosen. The motive sounds ... gamelan-like I
think would be the best phrase - a situation where beating and clashes
are desired.

Chris

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/More%20melodies%20in%20Alltheworst%20scale.mp3
>
> IMVHO this is a dead-clear example of the paradox of a "bad scale" IE a
> scale with virtually all sour intervals.
>
> In this very short piece/demo I went through huge lengths to find the few
> note combinations I found promoted a sense of stability (read: reasonable

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/4/2011 7:38:19 AM

>"The style you exhibit relies on raw melodies that keep repeating."

Have you actually listened to the file at
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/More%20melodies%20in%20Alltheworst%20scale.mp3?

....or are you just guessing before listening based on past demo examples (some
of which do have a melody repeat after four times because, guess what, they are
demos not full compositions)?

You may simply not like the kind of progression in it (that's fair, of course)
but, in the example "bad scale" piece, NO melodies repeat (and that progression
is done on purpose to generate more tonal color)...and actually very few short
(say 3 note) motifs even repeat.

Note: I don't release full compositions here often because, for me, something
that qualifies as a full composition takes 2+ weeks to finish...and that's if
I'm feeling particularly inspired.
Now if anyone has listened to said above piece and or my FULL songs (each of
which has at least 6 distinct melodies in it and something well North of 15
unique chords) IE Melancholy in Yellow, Sutrated, or any others...please speak
now.

>>>>>>>>>>
If I indeed am an unimaginative composer I will gladly stop releasing music
here and I am sorry I have wasted all of your time on this list....
<<<<<<<<<<<

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/4/2011 8:01:29 AM

>/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/More%20melodies%20in%20Alltheworst%20scale.mp3
>3

Chris>"The motive sounds ... gamelan-like I think would be the best phrase - a
situation where beating and clashes are desired."

Makes a lot of sense. Ironically...I found the only way I could make the scale
"work" for me IE sound stable...was to "make the beating/clashes work
together"...almost as if the beatings themselves changed the sense of where the
root is.

So the melodic combinations I found stable in such a way as to "make the clashes
work together" seemed to me, in a word, quite limited.

Ozan seems to think it's a problem with my compositional style repeating motifs
too much...but others (IE Rick Ballan, the jazz guitarist from the tuning list)
have said I need to stick more to a smaller number of Motifs that build off each
other and make different songs if I want to use so many different ideas.. So
I'm not so sure what to do to alleviate this (or how much of my composition
style this go around is a product of trying to fit the scale rather than of my
lack of imagination). Perhaps also, I should simply wait and see how my Untwelve
entry fairs and use that as a benchmark for my compositional skill...that thing
took me over a month to complete with a tad over 5 minutes of something north
of 50 chords (not repeating at all) and four unique, fast-paced 30+ second solos
and, IMVHO, could be my best piece ever.

Any ideas?

BTW...in this demo, unlike the last one where I simply took the same chords
I used for Pentra and converted them, my girlfriend didn't jump up and demand I
put on my headphones. Maybe I should do the same listening test with your track
(although, to be fair, I won't tell the g/f it's yours and, if she asks before
giving a response what she thinks of it...I'll act like it's mine and then tell
her the truth afterward to her eliminate any bias "toward the b/f's songs". :-D

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/4/2011 2:12:35 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Igliashon Jones/Lurid Occlusion.mp3
Uploaded by : cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
Description : In Michael S.'s most recent max-dissonance tuning

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Igliashon%20Jones/Lurid%20Occlusion.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/4/2011 2:35:16 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> However, despite such compositional efforts, notice no matter how crazy and
> adventurous I get with the melodies...the mood seems to always point toward the
> same place (almost as if you can imagine one ghastly fundamental droning the
> same tone through the entire piece)..
>
> So, IMVHO, the scale is good for that one limited mood...but very little else.
> And to get a wider variety of moods sounding good, I figure, the obvious path
> is to have more good intervals available where the mood of each good interval
> varies widely.
>
> Thoughts?

Yes: the mood sounds very like your attempts at "optimal" tunings as well, just with more beating. I suspect that this has to do with your scale-construction method, which seems to produce very similarly-formed scales that have very uneven steps and a large variety of harmonic intervals, sort of like a small but extremely-exaggerated well-temperament.

The paradox really seems to be that having a greater variety of harmonic "moods" between the chords in a scale leads to music that has a very *restricted* mood, since (as you've pointed out) everything points to the "same place". In other words, approaching scale construction with the idea that as many notes as possible should form consonant (or dissonant!) dyads with one another leads to a scale that functions more as a large arpeggiated chord with a single fundamental, unless (of course) we're talking scales larger than 7 or 8 notes here.

-Igs

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/4/2011 7:39:58 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/DimensionSquaredColorfulMelodies.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Melodic attempt at the most tonal color per 12 tones with my Dimension^2 tuning

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/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/DimensionSquaredColorfulMelodies.mp3

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/6/2011 7:49:13 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/Relived In 14TET.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Trying to get a relaxed feel out of the tense 14TET tuning

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/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Relived%20In%2014TET.mp3

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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/6/2011 8:33:58 PM

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Relived%20In%2014TET.mp3

It's about 1 minute long with NO repeating melodies at all. 14TET, IMVHO,
has about the worst dyads of any small-to-mid-sized TET tuning...and I could
feel it when composing...finding strong chords is a real chore and very few I
found were usable. And, even with them, the song has a ghastly feel...but the
tuning choice was actually intentional as the song is based on a dream I had
about my dead grandfather (who always loved food but was very serious about
health) coming back to life as fat man who said "they just had to pump some beer
and french fries in the IV and I was good to go...the stress of keeping a
perfect diet had killed me before!"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/7/2011 3:35:27 AM

You are encumbered with constantly repeating patterns or motifs in the
form of returning chord progressions and same rhythmic pulse to each
measure. Why not try to add some more variety to the flow of music?

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Relived%20In%2014TET.mp3
>
>
> It's about 1 minute long with NO repeating melodies at all. 14TET, IMVHO,
> has about the worst dyads of any small-to-mid-sized TET tuning...and I could
> feel it when composing...finding strong chords is a real chore and very few I
> found were usable. And, even with them, the song has a ghastly feel...but the
> tuning choice was actually intentional as the song is based on a dream I had
> about my dead grandfather (who always loved food but was very serious about
> health) coming back to life as fat man who said "they just had to pump some beer
> and french fries in the IV and I was good to go...the stress of keeping a
> perfect diet had killed me before!"
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 9:25:55 AM

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Relived%20In%2014TET.mp3

Ozan (about the above piece)>"You are encumbered with constantly repeating
patterns or motifs in the

form of returning chord progressions and same rhythmic pulse to each
measure. Why not try to add some more variety to the flow of music?"

Does anyone agree with this? I never copied any of the chord progression from
one measure to the next...if anything was repeated, it wasn't intentional.
Maybe I should just give up...this stinks because I'm really trying here...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/7/2011 10:09:12 AM

Michael wrote:
> Ozan>"Michael, I don't want to sound negative in order to deter you from
> composing, but really, where is the music?"
>
> Ozan, that is not a full song, note I specifically said "a few measures of
> music". Why should I bother to compose a full song if I couldn't even manage to
> get any kind of progression (according to you) going in my 1 minute long
> piece?! I'm taking baby steps, starting from scratch and building from smaller
> to larger...and listening to you closely. I'd hope you'd at least be somewhat
> thankful for that.
>
>> "Your piece(s) sound to me as a meaningless jumble of pitches devoid of
>> purpose, just like the occasional traffic and daily life noises in Istanbuline
>> streets."
>
>
> Did you even read the title?! It says "17TET with no repeating chords".
> Last time you complained my song had too many repeating chords, motifs, and
> phrasing patterns...so I deliberately made this example to FORCE myself to avoid
> repeating ANY of those things (yes, even if that means, for the first time
> around, killing the emotion of the piece to achieve it).
>
> My question to you, is does this piece have any sort of progression in
> chords/phrasing/motifs? I am SIMPLY REALIZING THAT BEFORE I WORK ON EMOTION IN
> MY MUSIC I NEED TO MAKE SURE I AT LEAST GET THE !!!TECHNIQUE!!! RIGHT! Why
> don't you understand that?!
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...>
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 12:40:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] New file: 17TET with no repeating chords
>
>
> Michael, I don't want to sound negative in order to deter you from
> composing, but really, where is the music? The end result in your
> endeavour should at least hold a tangible idiom, the piece ought to be
> complete (even when the finale is conceived as abruptly ending),
> concrete (even when it mocks established wholesome theories) and a great
> deal of deliberation (dynamics, nuances, expressions, the works)must
> underline every single note, or in this case, microtone. The music is
> where the meaning is AFAIC. Your piece(s) sound to me as a meaningless
> jumble of pitches devoid of purpose, just like the occasional traffic
> and daily life noises in Istanbuline streets. If you are searching for
> the ultimate dissonance, you found it in me, regardless of what scale
> you use or come up with.
>
> Oz.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 11:12:31 AM

Ozan>"Despicable Me, the awful music critic."

Argh....I'm not here to pick a grudge match....I'm here to find out what's
wrong with my compositional style and shut it up it for good!

Here are my supposed problems (if I have it right)
A) Not enough repeating Motifs -Rick Ballan
B) Too many repeating Motifs -You
C) Too many repeating chords -You and Carl
D) Lack of variation in rhythm of melodies -You

When Carl said I lacked chordal variation, he was talking about the following
19TET song I wrote:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3

...I'm guessing the rest of you think that song needs serious work/has serious
problems as well....

-----------------
I simply want (from you and others)...some suggestions to FIX these issues
FIRST. Once I have them fixed, then I can worry about
E) Making longer songs -You

Ozan...your complaining about how bad I am does nothing new for me.
LOOK...I already KNOW I stink as a composer, in fact much of the reason I ask
people to try my tunings is I don't trust great music to come out of them in my
own hands. I have plenty of other people giving me bad reviews: you're telling
me I'm bad is nothing new to me.

Now what I need... is someone to help show me how to make good microtonal
music...to give me direction rather than just tell me to "work harder". I'm
already "working harder"...and that alone simply isn't enough.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/7/2011 11:21:45 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> My question to you, is does this piece have any sort of progression in
> chords/phrasing/motifs? I am SIMPLY REALIZING THAT BEFORE I WORK ON EMOTION IN
> MY MUSIC I NEED TO MAKE SURE I AT LEAST GET THE !!!TECHNIQUE!!! RIGHT! Why
> don't you understand that?!

I suggest you compose the kind of music you would like to listen to. That's always been my theory of composing.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/7/2011 12:32:38 PM

My honest opinion is as follows:

1. This isn't too bad actually - it paints a place - much like an ambient
drone
2. Where it falls flat to my ears is that there is no sense of "traveling".
What I mean by that is (good) music tends to build tension and then release
it. This is a very old formula and and is what a "cadence" or even many
forms of modulation are about.
3. I think I can best describe the piece as "windchimes" since there seems
to be a high degree of randomness versus organization.

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/Relived%20In%2014TET.mp3
>
> It's about 1 minute long with NO repeating melodies at all. 14TET, IMVHO,
> has about the worst dyads of any small-to-mid-sized TET tuning...and I
> could
> feel it when composing...finding strong chords is a real chore and very few
> I
> found were usable. And, even with them, the song has a ghastly feel...but
> the
> tuning choice was actually intentional as the song is based on a dream I
> had
> about my dead grandfather (who always loved food but was very serious about
>
> health) coming back to life as fat man who said "they just had to pump some
> beer
> and french fries in the IV and I was good to go...the stress of keeping a
> perfect diet had killed me before!"
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗akjmicro <aaron@...>

1/7/2011 12:35:43 PM

Hey Michael, all,

Some ramblings related to this thread , in no particular order save that in which they come to me:

1) it's okay to experiment in the practice of art, and fail, and even fail miserably! Who among us hasn't thrown away sketches in utter disgust? Part of learning, it seems, is knowing first hand what *didn't* work. This only requires a humble honesty!

2) No simple rule-of-thumb ingredient is sufficient to produce a consistently guarantee-able masterwork. Even if it were, someone somewhere is guaranteed to dismiss it. Follow your inner compass; in that regard, Gene is right---write music that thrills you. Copy the "isms" of someone whose music gives your life meaning.

3) For example, there is plenty of music that is unbelievably rich where the very concept of chords and chord changes is anachronistic at best and meaningless at worst. Indian music, for example, is drone and melody, and the best (even I daresay most 'average') Indian music is fantastic. Much medieval and pre-medieval music is also _monophonically_ conceived. It doesn't lack for not having harmony, really. Then you have Messiaen, whose dense chordal complexity and configurations can tie your head in knots. Both beautiful, both valid (although personally I prefer simpler, gentler things than Messiaen these days). Anyway, I think not enough people simply revel in such a model -- drone and melody -- to get their heart/ear/imagination chops going. People want to write hyper complex, harmonically rich stuff right away, and it's ass backwards. But it's an understandable, and perhaps an inevitable part of the process. How many folks *can* write a fine monophonic melody? Don't we think we should start there before combining many lines? Doesn't that make sense? But how often do people who try to write go this route? Here's a challenge for you: write a drone/melody/percussion piece that totally blows people away. Composers are afraid of that, perhaps because they find complexity something easy to hide behind? Which leads to:

4) Composers tend to think complexity is hard to do, *because* it's complex. At least let's say this: doing complex *well* is vey hard. As I gain more experience, in fact I'm finding that simplicity that speaks to the core is harder/hardest to compose. One's "self" or imagination is more exposed, and it feels more vunerable (at least this is my impression). One can also feel that one isn't pleasing enough to the certain snobs who are looking for a certain outward superficial virtuosity. <<e.g. in some ways, Handel was a much better _communicator_ (not better composer per se) than Bach precisely because of this--he was always after the final emotive effect, not abstract structural concerns--look at the way a Handel chorus from "Messiah" ("For Unto Us a child is born" is a good example) is both completely emotionally satisfying in the buildup, not needing to pull out all the contrapuntal juice at all times like Bach often does--he often has a single part or just two going at a time, and then the climax is utterly majestic when all four are singing>> Randomness can suffice for complexity, but little information, musically or grammatically speaking, is conveyed by randomness. The music that speaks to people throughout history is at its core simple enough to reach many. Or, as Mozart said "A good piece has something for the people, something for the connoisseur". Stripping things down to their bare expressive essentials yet retaining communicative power is the hallmark of many of the masters I admire. The marriage of simplicity and sophisticated complexity is also delicate and equally hard, if not harder than just simplicity, and perhaps the holy grail. Making complexity *sound* simple. Anyway, Mozart was known to have been proud as hell of a certain piece he wrote that contained two chords. He was also capable of the most achingly beautiful twisted chromatic fugal writing, but that's not his regular mode (it happens more when he writes in minor keys). Anyway, there's something about simplicity arrived at by someone who has struggled with and done complexity that is for me superior than someone who starts out with for instance near zero instrumental or compositional technique and just writes ditties. The journey towards that restraint actually does something palpable to the quality, but I can't really say what it is....

5) I read somewhere a suggestion that if one parameter of music is complex, make the others, or most of the others, simple. For balance. Seems to me to be a sensible suggestion. So, complex harmony with simple rhythm or vice versa would be an example. Or timbral changes electronically might be best clothed in relatively stable traditional musical elements. For all of Stravinsky's metrical complexities in "Le Sacre", most of the tone-material is derivable from simple tetrachordal structures, often in bi-tonal aggregates.

Enough.

Good luck!

AKJ

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Ozan>"Despicable Me, the awful music critic."
>
> Argh....I'm not here to pick a grudge match....I'm here to find out what's
> wrong with my compositional style and shut it up it for good!
>
> Here are my supposed problems (if I have it right)
> A) Not enough repeating Motifs -Rick Ballan
> B) Too many repeating Motifs -You
> C) Too many repeating chords -You and Carl
> D) Lack of variation in rhythm of melodies -You
>
> When Carl said I lacked chordal variation, he was talking about the following
> 19TET song I wrote:
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3
>
> ...I'm guessing the rest of you think that song needs serious work/has serious
> problems as well....
>
> -----------------
> I simply want (from you and others)...some suggestions to FIX these issues
> FIRST. Once I have them fixed, then I can worry about
> E) Making longer songs -You
>
>
> Ozan...your complaining about how bad I am does nothing new for me.
> LOOK...I already KNOW I stink as a composer, in fact much of the reason I ask
> people to try my tunings is I don't trust great music to come out of them in my
> own hands. I have plenty of other people giving me bad reviews: you're telling
> me I'm bad is nothing new to me.
>
> Now what I need... is someone to help show me how to make good microtonal
> music...to give me direction rather than just tell me to "work harder". I'm
> already "working harder"...and that alone simply isn't enough.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/7/2011 12:39:52 PM

I agree with Gene - my opinion - and any opinion on this list - will be from
the stand point of "if I wrote this I would have _____ fill in blank"
That part is inescapable.

On the other hand
- each opinion is seeing your composition through another pair of eyes
- keep the opinions you understand and find useful
- discard the other opinions you don't agree with or understand even though
they may be well meant and sincere.

The object for me (and I think most composers) is to develop your unique
compositional voice. Your voice comes from the choices you make and from no
other source. Each note, each timbre, each rhythm pattern is a choice that
you make that when you sum it all up sounds like "you" (hopefully). Then,
within that set of choices you work to express yourself - and when
successful create art - or.... craft pop music.

Chris

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:21 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> > My question to you, is does this piece have any sort of progression in
> > chords/phrasing/motifs? I am SIMPLY REALIZING THAT BEFORE I WORK ON
> EMOTION IN
> > MY MUSIC I NEED TO MAKE SURE I AT LEAST GET THE !!!TECHNIQUE!!! RIGHT!
> Why
> > don't you understand that?!
>
> I suggest you compose the kind of music you would like to listen to. That's
> always been my theory of composing.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 12:44:27 PM

Chris>"1. This isn't too bad actually - it paints a place - much like an ambient
drone"
Figures....

>"3. I think I can best describe the piece as "windchimes" since there seems
to be a high degree of randomness versus organization."

The funny thing here is I was going for playfulness and variation (perhaps
even too far to the point a threw organization out the window)...which is why it
particularly started me Ozan said the was little to no variation in it. It is
admittedly rather random...and that was done to keep from hitting the harmonic
sour spots (of which 14TET is, to my ears, full of) avoid repetition of
motifs...another reason I wonder how I supposedly repeat the same Motifs so
much, according to Ozan. Unless somehow "randomness" and "repeated motifs" go
together?...I'm a bit confused because it sounds like I'm getting conflicting
suggestions...any ideas how this all fits together so I can use said
'conflicting' advice?

>"2. Where it falls flat to my ears is that there is no sense of "traveling".
>What I mean by that is (good) music tends to build tension and then release it.
>This is a very old formula and and is what a "cadence" or even many
forms of modulation are about."
Got it ( I think)...the level of tension stays the same, in other
words...almost as if it stays mildly consonant and never builds to dissonance
and "back" to consonance?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗john777music <jfos777@...>

1/7/2011 12:55:19 PM

Hi Michael,

when Ozan said "Hang in there Michael" I think he was being friendly.

I wouldn't worry too much about what others think or say that seems negative (hard to do but I try to do it myself). If your music sounds good to yourself maybe it shouldn't matter if others don't like it. Appreciation is always nice but you definitely can't please everyone every time.

John.

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/7/2011 12:56:07 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/17neo5.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Daydreaming (preview in 17TET)

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/17neo5.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/7/2011 1:08:51 PM

Mike,

At least for me, the challenge of providing variation and yet sounding like
the same piece is difficult indeed.
If you happened to compare my two version of Orwellian Cameras you'll see
that the first section of the 2nd version still held the mood (so much so
Carl thought the piece had not changed) but was indeed a contrasting
section.
Now perhaps someone like Daniel Forro with his background doesn't find the
balance of continuity and variation a challenge but I do. It is something
I'm learning still and is meaningful even in the context of pop music.
(think of the songs you like that have just the "perfect" contrasting
section.) This balance is indeed very hard to improvise - unless you have
something like a Mozart skill level.

In Orwellian Cameras my creation of an introduction shamefully and almost
mechanically "recomposed" the chord progression in the ending - I cut the
speed of chord changes by half, used the chord tones in an arpeggio which
was played on a harp - and incorporated some melodic lines from later on in
the piece against the harp.

Here is the original version
http://notonlymusic.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=437&p=3088&hilit=orwell#p3088

Here is the 2nd version
http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=341

Chris

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> Chris>"1. This isn't too bad actually - it paints a place - much like an
> ambient
> drone"
> Figures....
>
>
> >"3. I think I can best describe the piece as "windchimes" since there
> seems
> to be a high degree of randomness versus organization."
>
> The funny thing here is I was going for playfulness and variation (perhaps
> even too far to the point a threw organization out the window)...which is
> why it
> particularly started me Ozan said the was little to no variation in it. It
> is
> admittedly rather random...and that was done to keep from hitting the
> harmonic
> sour spots (of which 14TET is, to my ears, full of) avoid repetition of
> motifs...another reason I wonder how I supposedly repeat the same Motifs so
>
> much, according to Ozan. Unless somehow "randomness" and "repeated motifs"
> go
> together?...I'm a bit confused because it sounds like I'm getting
> conflicting
> suggestions...any ideas how this all fits together so I can use said
> 'conflicting' advice?
>
>
> >"2. Where it falls flat to my ears is that there is no sense of
> "traveling".
> >What I mean by that is (good) music tends to build tension and then
> release it.
> >This is a very old formula and and is what a "cadence" or even many
> forms of modulation are about."
> Got it ( I think)...the level of tension stays the same, in other
> words...almost as if it stays mildly consonant and never builds to
> dissonance
> and "back" to consonance?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 1:26:39 PM

John>"when Ozan said "Hang in there Michael" I think he was being friendly. "
I recognize that now...I couldn't tell then how much of it was sarcasm.

>"I wouldn't worry too much about what others think or say that seems negative "

I guess you could say what I'm worried about is not sounding like what I
intend to (IE Gene's suggestion).

On one extreme, I don't intend to write or learn to write symphonies or
anything that, say, randomly switches from 4/4 to 5/4 rhythm in the middle of a
song...if that's what Ozan or anyone else wants, honestly, they are s--- of of
luck.

On the other hand, if people think "the average Nickelback or Aqua song has
as much or more chord-variation per 2 measures than yours" or gets the feeling
I'm actually trying to produce sugar-pop...you bet I'm in trouble....because
that's nothing like what I'm trying to sound like.

I'm going for something with fair but not huge chord and mood variation in a
fairly accessible form with some modulation and tone tricks but not excessively
so (ALA the Beatles or Herbie Hancock). If I have about the same level of
"repeating chords and motifs and lack of tension changes" issues as them...I'll
be happy. Tonally, I'm going for the same general feel...a little bit odd and
mysterious, but not "chaotic odd".
The added things I want to try for "over" those kind of artists is more
tonal color, hence my messing with non-12TET-like systems and playfulness and
energy in rhythm, hence my often delving into drum&bass style beats.
So I'm certainly not going for "pop" or "dance/pop", so to speak (although it
seems almost everyone thinks I am).

My latest little tidbit is...
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/17neo5.mp3

No it's not a full song...no it's not a symphony...it is just a few measures
with the goal of sounding as musically progressive as, say, a few measures of a
Herbie Hancock song. I'm trying to at least make it sound organized without
making the chord progression sugar-pop level repetitive. If anyone could tell
me "what they would do" to move it in that direction...I would greatly
appreciate it. :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 2:21:46 PM

Aaron>"People want to write hyper complex, harmonically rich stuff right away,
and it's ass backwards."

It's funny because I'm not going for "hyper complex" or "the next
Stravinsky" but rather "something that shows I put more effort than writing a 3
chord progression for an Aqua song". I'm thinking a lot of people here are in
the same boat.

>"How many folks *can* write a fine monophonic melody? Don't we think we should
>start there before combining many lines? Doesn't that make sense? But how often
>do people who try to write go this route? Here's a challenge for you: write a
>drone/melody/percussion piece that totally blows people away. Composers are
>afraid of that, perhaps because they find complexity something easy to hide
>behind?"

Agreed, it's easy to hide behind complexity. The other issue is being taken
as "oh, you were just too lazy to write the chord progression or forgot to title
the piece a piece of minimalism, eh?"...that's the typical response I've gotten
if composing anything other than a minimalism piece blatantly titled as a
minimal piece.

The third issue (for me at least) in that I love the tonal color of
polyphonic music (and yes, I mean with multiple instruments as 'polyphonic'...I
learned the lesson on polyphonic vs. chord intensive, chord intensive not
necessarily involving more than one instrument, before). That half the fun for
me of going micro-tonal.

>"Randomness can suffice for complexity, but little information, musically or
>grammatically speaking, is conveyed by randomness."

Agreed...it just seems a double-standard where if I compose with motifs I'm
"lazy for not adding variation" and if I avoid motifs I'm "speaking in
randomness". I agree with Chris...it may be easy for someone like Daniel Forro
or Mozart to do both...but it's hard for me...even when I put a huge amount of
effort toward it.
What bugs me is the attitude that, no matter what I do, no one here seems to
be able to stand up and say "that guy (Mike) is motivated...that's not the
issue". That doesn't seem to happen here or on the tuning list...most everyone
assumes if I do something wrong it's because I'm too lazy/not trying, not
listening, too proud to try/listen, assume I'm flat out lying about composing
for an hour or more a day, etc. I'd likely die before the day someone gave me
credit for effort.
It happened terribly back at Trax In Space to...honest feedback was hard
because everyone seemed to assume I thought I was "perfect" and had ego
issue...when in reality all I wanted was someone to say "your music communicates
X mood because of Y things" and see if that matched my intentions for the song
rather than run a personality-test on me.

IMVHO...many of the above could be avoided if when someone posted as a reply
to the music
A) The mood they (the listener) derived from the piece
B) The elements of the composition that brought forth said mood, with notes on
when said-things happened on a time-line when possible
C) Possible artists/songs the piece or aspects of the piece sounds like (and or
tunings/scales it sounds like). Maybe my pieces do have so simple chord
progressions they "sound like Aqua" in that sense (even though that was far from
the intention), who knows...)
D) The mood the listener would prefer it be more like "if I could change
anything about..."
E) Possible ways (if wanted) to change it toward said mood
F) No personal judgments

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/7/2011 2:39:02 PM

Yes, me friendly.

This new one is a development in the better direction. At least I listen
and pay attention in earnest to what Michael is doing. But tell me again
Michael, what are you aiming for with these pieces?

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> John>"when Ozan said "Hang in there Michael" I think he was being friendly."
> I recognize that now...I couldn't tell then how much of it was sarcasm.
>
>
>> "I wouldn't worry too much about what others think or say that seems negative"
>
> I guess you could say what I'm worried about is not sounding like what I
> intend to (IE Gene's suggestion).
>
> On one extreme, I don't intend to write or learn to write symphonies or
> anything that, say, randomly switches from 4/4 to 5/4 rhythm in the middle of a
> song...if that's what Ozan or anyone else wants, honestly, they are s--- of of
> luck.
>
>
> On the other hand, if people think "the average Nickelback or Aqua song has
> as much or more chord-variation per 2 measures than yours" or gets the feeling
> I'm actually trying to produce sugar-pop...you bet I'm in trouble....because
> that's nothing like what I'm trying to sound like.
>
> I'm going for something with fair but not huge chord and mood variation in a
> fairly accessible form with some modulation and tone tricks but not excessively
> so (ALA the Beatles or Herbie Hancock). If I have about the same level of
> "repeating chords and motifs and lack of tension changes" issues as them...I'll
> be happy. Tonally, I'm going for the same general feel...a little bit odd and
> mysterious, but not "chaotic odd".
> The added things I want to try for "over" those kind of artists is more
> tonal color, hence my messing with non-12TET-like systems and playfulness and
> energy in rhythm, hence my often delving into drum&bass style beats.
> So I'm certainly not going for "pop" or "dance/pop", so to speak (although it
> seems almost everyone thinks I am).
>
>
> My latest little tidbit is...
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/17neo5.mp3
>
> No it's not a full song...no it's not a symphony...it is just a few measures
> with the goal of sounding as musically progressive as, say, a few measures of a
> Herbie Hancock song. I'm trying to at least make it sound organized without
> making the chord progression sugar-pop level repetitive. If anyone could tell
> me "what they would do" to move it in that direction...I would greatly
> appreciate it. :-)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/7/2011 3:04:41 PM

Gene wrote:

>I suggest you compose the kind of music you would like to listen to.
>That's always been my theory of composing.

Doubleplus upvote. -Carl

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 4:17:15 PM

Ozan>"But tell me again Michael, what are you aiming for with these pieces?"

For these last few examples? To take the side of each "bad" tuning and
display it in a way that's as easy to listen to as the tuning can be made to be
and to see how much tonal color one can get out of a tuning...short technical
exercises, not full-blown compositions.

In general? To, through both composition/chord-choice and devising tunings,
come up with ways to get easily accessible vast ranges of tonal color and show
ones that, hopefully, work pretty well for a fair range of people.

On a larger scale? To at least make examples good enough to get the
attention composers far better than myself to really hit it home and use my
theories/scales/etc. to their full potential and bring more interest to
microtonality. It seems the rule of thumb is...to get a scale to go anywhere
you first need to prove it's good with your own composition(s). I'm not here to
"promote myself"...I'm here to promote my concepts...

Specifically to my style (and the 17TET piece)?
To make something along the lines of what Herbie Hancock or the Beatles makes
with their music...a bit odd, tonally diverse, and certainly not "4-chord bubble
gum pop" (a lot more melodically and harmonically playful), but still quite
accessible and certainly not "random sounding".
The sort of thing you can both listen to for its own intellectual sake and
dance to. Again, I'm not aiming to write "symphonies" or even "tiny parts of
symphonies" or trying to write "piano solos"...but rather get the kind of
"advanced indie-pop" feel the above groups have...and the kind of feel I like
listening to in general.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/7/2011 5:03:42 PM

For the first article, you don't need to push yourself too hard if you
do not trust in your compositional skills to fulfill your goals (I, for
one, shall always find something to complain about). Let others like Igs
and Chris have a go at the scales to demonstrate your points.

For the second article, I do not even know who this "fair range of
people" are. The cultural diversity of the world is more a mystery than
a formal declaration of what a given group mentality comprehends of it.
There are so many parts of the world that comprise in total ten times
the population of the Western hemisphere. There is China, India and
Indonesia/Malaysia for one thing. It cannot be stressed enough when I
say there is no single standard for musical (tuning) taste contrary to
what "Westernist snobs" may think. I truly hate to see supremacist
ethnocentrism of any kind take hold of the music-making process.

For the third article, what exactly are your theories (concepts) in
precise structural form and what makes you believe you will have any
tangible effect on bringing microtonality to the attention of your
betters in the field of composition when you yourself admit to your lack
of qualifications therein and when these people have little interest in
penetrating deeper into microtonality despite our very own collective
efforts as senior peers? So far, I have not seen any systematic analysis
or discovery of anything regarding acoustics from the newbie quarter.
The proposed arguments just reek of pseudo-science wherever we turn...
in grandiloquent parlour at that.

For the fourth article, the whole matter should finally boil down to
what you yourself aspire for your own enjoyment. Try to create something
microtonal that you really are satisfied with, without grandiose motives
to influence anybody out there. Believe me, it works when you don't
overreach yourself.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> Ozan>"But tell me again Michael, what are you aiming for with these pieces?"
>
>
> For these last few examples? To take the side of each "bad" tuning and
> display it in a way that's as easy to listen to as the tuning can be made to be
> and to see how much tonal color one can get out of a tuning...short technical
> exercises, not full-blown compositions.
>
>
> In general? To, through both composition/chord-choice and devising tunings,
> come up with ways to get easily accessible vast ranges of tonal color and show
> ones that, hopefully, work pretty well for a fair range of people.
>
>
> On a larger scale? To at least make examples good enough to get the
> attention composers far better than myself to really hit it home and use my
> theories/scales/etc. to their full potential and bring more interest to
> microtonality. It seems the rule of thumb is...to get a scale to go anywhere
> you first need to prove it's good with your own composition(s). I'm not here to
> "promote myself"...I'm here to promote my concepts...
>
>
> Specifically to my style (and the 17TET piece)?
> To make something along the lines of what Herbie Hancock or the Beatles makes
> with their music...a bit odd, tonally diverse, and certainly not "4-chord bubble
> gum pop" (a lot more melodically and harmonically playful), but still quite
> accessible and certainly not "random sounding".
> The sort of thing you can both listen to for its own intellectual sake and
> dance to. Again, I'm not aiming to write "symphonies" or even "tiny parts of
> symphonies" or trying to write "piano solos"...but rather get the kind of
> "advanced indie-pop" feel the above groups have...and the kind of feel I like
> listening to in general.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/7/2011 5:30:14 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:

> There are so many parts of the world that comprise in total ten times
> the population of the Western hemisphere.

Not quite.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/7/2011 5:32:13 PM

I must underline this. I agree 100%.

Chris

>
> For the fourth article, the whole matter should finally boil down to
> what you yourself aspire for your own enjoyment. Try to create something
> microtonal that you really are satisfied with, without grandiose motives
> to influence anybody out there. Believe me, it works when you don't
> overreach yourself.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Oz.

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/7/2011 6:13:56 PM

How so?

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

genewardsmith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
>> There are so many parts of the world that comprise in total ten times
>> the population of the Western hemisphere.
>
> Not quite.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/7/2011 6:26:03 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> How so?
>
> --
>
> â© â© â©
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> genewardsmith wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@> wrote:
> >
> >> There are so many parts of the world that comprise in total ten times
> >> the population of the Western hemisphere.

> > Not quite.

The population of the Americas is nearly a billion. In any case, it might make more sense to add Europe into the figure, since you are talking culture.

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/7/2011 6:45:58 PM

You are limiting it to here and now. Think history.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

genewardsmith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>> How so?
>>
>> --
>>
>> âœ© âœ© âœ©
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>>
>> genewardsmith wrote:
>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are so many parts of the world that comprise in total ten times
>>>> the population of the Western hemisphere.
>
>>> Not quite.
>
> The population of the Americas is nearly a billion. In any case, it might make more sense to add Europe into the figure, since you are talking culture.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/7/2011 6:49:59 PM

Such divisions are pointless in today's world. I am more
likely to hear traditional Turkish music in a restaurant in
New Jersey than on the streets of Istanbul, and rap is
probably as popular there as it is in Queens.

But I think Gene meant, OECD nations account for roughly
1/6 of the world's population, not 1/10th. The U.S. is
the 3rd most populous nation, with roughly 1/3 the
population of the most populous (China).

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> How so?
>
> genewardsmith wrote:
>
> >> There are so many parts of the world that comprise in total
> >> ten times the population of the Western hemisphere.
> >
> > Not quite.
> >
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 7:02:23 PM

>"For the second article, I do not even know who this "fair range of
people" are."

Let's start with "the general Western population" IE America and Europe.
Not that they'll all love it, but that they'll respect it as music other people
have good reason to like. IE I don't like Madonna's music, but I can hear
enough in it that I won't consider anyone who likes it "needing elementary music
lessons in tone and key".

>"when these people have little interest in penetrating deeper into microtonality
>despite our very own collective
>
efforts as senior peers?"
>"So far, I have not seen any systematic analysis or discovery of anything
>regarding acoustics from the newbie quarter. "

You know...relative to people like yourself and Gene...even those like Igs
are newbies. And people like Sevish even more so. And yet...I feel Sevish and
Igs's work is on par with your own...not on "technical prowess"...but the
greater purpose of emotional effect and balance.
Also if musical influence were so simple as who was there the longest...half
of today's leading musicians would never exist. My issue with the whole senior
peers thing is not any lack of expertise...but rather that there seems to be a
drive among them to pull the market to where they are rather than accommodate to
what's actually there IE the skill is there but the direction...isn't quite
there.
I view myself as the opposite...I trust I have the direction...but not the
skill....hence I'm trying to get those who do have the skill to listen IE
compose with my tunings (and I mean starting songs from scratch, not retuning
existing songs they've made, which often works horrifically do to non-standard
non-even intervals my scales use.

>"The proposed arguments just reek of pseudo-science wherever we turn... in
>grandiloquent parlour at that."

And your compositional alternative is? It would be easy to call their work
pseudoscience...if it didn't mysteriously sound as or more amusing then your
own.

>"For the fourth article, the whole matter should finally boil down to what you
>yourself aspire for your own enjoyment. Try to create something microtonal that
>you really are satisfied with, without grandiose motives
>
to influence anybody out there."

Good concept...only it seems to give birth to compositions with little
longevity. I tried that concept for a couple of years and loved it...but then
came back years later and found myself dismissing my own music due to technical
reasons.

For example...I can't even vaguely stand the bad production in my old works
now that I know I need to do things like tune the drums on 5ths and 4ths or
pieces with only 5 chords or melodies with an overly repeating pattern I didn't
notice when composing it, but certainly did 1 month later.
It seems having a "second ear" is key to a song's longevity. Otherwise it
seems you end up with something only good if you have the exact mood you had on
the day you wrote it. Heck, I'd love to know exactly what motifs repeat in my
14TET piece because, at least for now, it sounds like a solo to me (in a good
way)...though as time goes on I figure it will become clearer to me where the
repetition is after I get "un-used to it".

>"Let others like Igs and Chris have a go at the scales to demonstrate your
>points."

Exactly... Hopefully this time around when I publish my Dimension^2 tuning
I will have as good luck as when I published these "bad" tunings. It seems when
I try to make a good scale, people ignore it...but when I try to make a "bad"
scale, people are all over it... :-D

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/7/2011 7:05:28 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:

> But I think Gene meant, OECD nations account for roughly
> 1/6 of the world's population, not 1/10th.

If we're going by OECD, does that mean we get to keep Turkish maqam music?

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/7/2011 8:16:56 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /djtrancendance/DIMENSION squared2.tun
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Dimension Squared Tuning Scala File

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/7/2011 8:23:03 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /djtrancendance/dimension2inaction.mp3
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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/7/2011 8:26:20 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /djtrancendance/dimensionsquared.scl
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Dimension Squared Tuning Scala File

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/dimensionsquared.scl

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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/7/2011 8:30:45 PM

Igs, Chris and others, I'd greatly appreciate it if you try composing with this
scale:

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/dimensionsquared.scl

Finally managed to translate my Dimension^2 tuning to a Scala file. Yes,
that's my best try at a "good" scale IE one with as many harmonic and
mood/tonal-color possibilities per note as I could manage.

Note...this may prove a bit cumbersome to play on a keyboard due to the odd
spacing (necessary to preserve all the desired dyads within about 7 cents). So
you might want to mark/pick 8-9 fairly well spaced out notes to actually
play/improvise with and then use the other notes to fine tune for the final
versions for more mood-accurate harmony.

A short example of the tuning in action (which should give you some idea what
it sounds like) is here ->
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/dimension2inaction.mp3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/7/2011 9:42:33 PM

Is there some reason you gave this scale as a freakin', debased tun file?? Which neither Word nore Notepad can read?

One word, and it isn't plastics: Scala!

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

1/7/2011 9:47:04 PM

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 1:24 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> Daniel Forro (on The Beatles)>"What I like most of all is their style
> diversity
> - there's rock'n'roll, British music-hall, French chanson, Latin +American,
>
> jazz & swing, blues, ragtime, boogie-woogie, classical (Middle Age,
> Renaissance, Baroque, Classicism, Romantism), experimental and electronic,
> musique concrete, aleatoric, brass-band, symphonic, ethnic music
> influences...
> Really multifaceted music."
>
> Precisely. And yet their accessibility and reach is decidedly "pop
> friendly"...it's amazing how weird they were and yet how far they "got away
> with
> it". Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band in particular, was
> absolutely
> crazy (in a good way): everything from sitars to acid-jazz-like
> electonica-style
> Hammond organs to those big-band brass sections you mentioned. Not to
> mention
> Aleatoric music IE as composed by
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Stockhausen...yep, they were in
> many ways
> heavily avant-garde influenced (even!)
>
> Now if the Beatles can get away with all that experimental "garbage" thrown
>
> on top of pop/rock/r&b fundamentals (and I mean that in a good way!) and
> make it
> come across as smoothly as "pop"...why can't we get away with, say, a
> version of
> the diatonic scale with one or two notes swapped to make it microtonal and
> do
> the same thing?
> An example, the 9-tone version of my Dimension Scale pretty much is
> designed to do just that. It has two 7-tone "single semitone" modes that
> can be
> made by slightly modifying it's one diatonic meantone-like mode. One mode
> basically takes a scale with notes only a couple cents off a basic diatonic
>
> scale in quarter comma mean-tone and swaps one note with an 11/9 neutral
> second. Another takes that "near quarter comma meantone" scale and swaps
> the
> 9/5 "seventh" with an 11/6 one.
> With either of the two note swaps, you get things like your 4/3 becoming an
>
> 11/8, your 3/2 becoming a 22/15, and your 5/3 becoming an 18/11 from that
> one
> swapped root tone...enabling you to jump from standard 12TET diatonic-like
> feel
> to something much more exotic feeling at will.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/8/2011 9:05:48 AM

Chris and Daniel,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Martin

Wow...had not heard of him (George Martin) at all...just shows how
under-rated some composers/producers are.

"Most of The Beatles' orchestral arrangements and instrumentation (as well as
frequent keyboard parts on the early records) were written or performed by
Martin in collaboration with the band.[35] "..."For "I Am the Walrus", he
provided a quirky and original arrangement for brass, violins, cellos, and the
Mike Sammes Singers vocal ensemble.[38][41][42] On "In My Life", he played a
sped-up Baroque piano solo.[43] He worked with McCartney to implement the
orchestral 'climax' in "A Day in the Life" and he and McCartney shared
conducting duties the day it was recorded. Martin arranged the score for The
Beatles' film Yellow Submarine[51] and the James Bond film Live and Let Die, for
which Paul McCartney wrote and sang the title song.[52]" -Wiki

Indeed, he seems behind much of the beautiful "big band" backings used...
He also, guess what (of course?), hired the Beatles after many record companies
had TURNED THEM DOWN! :-0

>"I have no doubt that if Martin had given Lennon a 22 edo piano we'd have
>microtonal pop music."

Indeed! Maybe we just need a good list of modern cutting-edge producers.
William Orbit and Quincy Jones (IE of Michael Jackson fame) are two who come
up. Far as singers...I'd give a fair bet on Kirsty Hirkshaw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsty_Hawkshaw from the electronica world (has
done virtually every genre in electronica) or Darius Rucker, who mixes soul,
country, and rock ..and would likely try more genres (plus, like the Beatles, he
is/was highly underrated). Any other ideas?
Call me crazy...but I think if we got together as a community and pitched the
idea to the right producer...things could start changing quickly... :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/8/2011 9:37:26 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Igs, Chris and others, I'd greatly appreciate it if you try composing with this
> scale:
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/dimensionsquared.scl

Would you mind just posting the scale in a message? I'm on a mac and I'm too lazy to bother with the ridiculous install procedure necessary to get Scala to run on my computer, so this file is no good to me.

-Igs

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/8/2011 10:14:46 AM

Igs>"Would you mind just posting the scale in a message? I'm on a mac and I'm
too lazy to bother with the ridiculous install procedure necessary to get Scala
to run on my computer, so this file is no good to me."

Here you go...

! E:\dimensionsquared.scl
!
dimension squared
12
!
28/25
117/100
6/5
613/500
505.77499
3/2
1573/1000
817.46922
892.06285
1011.52634
1831/1000
2/1

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

1/8/2011 1:03:55 PM

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 12:37 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Would you mind just posting the scale in a message? I'm on a mac and I'm too lazy to bother with the ridiculous install procedure necessary to get Scala to run on my computer, so this file is no good to me.
>
> -Igs

Scala files are just plaintext anyway, so you can open it in notepad
to just get the scale, but here it is:

! E:\dimensionsquared.scl
!
dimension squared
12
!
28/25
117/100
6/5
613/500
505.77499
3/2
1573/1000
817.46922
892.06285
1011.52634
1831/1000
2/1

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/8/2011 2:54:33 PM

All I can say is...I swear I am on to something with my scales. A WHOLE LOT
of ideas for this scale came directly from this list and the tuning list....

And this is NOT pseudoscience...as everything listed here, like it or hate
it, is fact. Namely the ratios contained in this system and comments made by
real people on this list and the tuning list.

These are the kinds of possibilities you can expect from the Dimension^2 scale
system...all ratios below accurate within under 8 cents!....

People like Cameron have said consistently they think 11/9 works well in
composition, Igs has pledged favoritism for the 22/15 as a second-best
alternative type of 5th to the perfect 5th (in fact, I got the idea for it from
him), and several others have said the 11/6 seventh is the "next best thing" to
a 9/5 seventh in compositional use and often have said it is better than 12TET's
15/8. By the way, both the 11/6 and 9/5 are in the Dimension scale
system...along with the 11/9 and 22/15. There are many modes that have a
distinctive Arab feel with consecutive semi-tones near 12/11 and in no way feel
"Westernized"...plus they double as Ptolemy Homalon-like scales (much like those
scales Jacques Dudon has said he often favors for his live music).
--------------
Meanwhile there is a 7 tone mode of my new scale system that is within a few
cents of quarter comma meantone...a meantone system which is argued by many to
be the best tuning for 12TET-style music period. Yes, it comes with "microtonal
training wheels", so to speak.
So even if you are of the idea that "microtonal will never catch on in popular
music" or "Michael is a crazy B for using 11-limit dyads in his scales"
(lol)...you could still make an instrument with my scale and play those same old
Western dyads in as-good-or-better-than 12TET accuracy. And then (hopefully)
get more adventurous later on...
----------------
Fans of 22TET will also likely notice the 11/8 and 8/5 intervals are in the
Dimension^2 scale system. So is the 9/7 interval Gene mentioned favorably.
-------
If you enjoy any of the above styles and want a strong many-in-one scale
system that's a merely 12 notes long, not a monsterous 30 or 40+ as many
high-accuracy tunings are...and/or want a scale system with dyads mentioned as
favorable by many people on here, you owe it to yourself to try composing in
this system.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/8/2011 4:03:49 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /djtrancendance/sutra128.mp3
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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/8/2011 4:09:26 PM

Hello,

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File : /djtrancendance/SpectraFloor-LostInParadiseMastered112.mp3
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🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/8/2011 6:24:38 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> And this is NOT pseudoscience...as everything listed here, like it or hate
> it, is fact. Namely the ratios contained in this system and comments made by
> real people on this list and the tuning list.

I'd be more interested in a focus on chords with more than two notes in them, but what is the target consonance list and what are the error bars for this scale?

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/8/2011 7:14:15 PM

Formulating scales and making music with them does not entail science.

Oz.

> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael<djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
>> And this is NOT pseudoscience...as everything listed here, like it or hate
>> it, is fact. Namely the ratios contained in this system and comments made by
>> real people on this list and the tuning list.
>
> I'd be more interested in a focus on chords with more than two notes in them, but what is the target consonance list and what are the error bars for this scale?
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/8/2011 7:53:32 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Formulating scales and making music with them does not entail science.
>

In what way is the process of forming an hypothesis, doing an experiment (or several experiments) to test the hypothesis, and then drawing conclusions NOT science? Because that is exactly what Michael has been doing. He has had several hypotheses about how to make scales capable of sounding "good" (for some value of "good"), which he has tested by composing (and asking others to compose) with scales developed based on these hypotheses. Based on the results, he's drawn some conclusions. Obviously, there's a lack of statistical rigor due to the narrowing sample population and the lack of quantifiable results, but it still follows the outline of the scientific method.

Science, at its core, is nothing more than the philosophy that experience can substantiate or discredit beliefs or ideas, and the process of testing beliefs and ideas against experience--constantly. Everything else associated with science is formality.

-Igs

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/8/2011 8:08:18 PM

Science requires the scientific method. This entails rigourous
analytical processes that are tangibly measured and quantified in units,
metric, laws, etc... leading to theorems that can be concretely verified
and falsified. As I have been repeating over and over, theory in music
is not equal to theory in physics or engineering. It's just a stockpile
of practical rudiments and rules for music-making... Euro-centered at
that (unless otherwise specified). My posts and comments on this topic
are legion.

What the newbies are doing has nothing to do with the scientific method.
It's more rumination and grandiloquence than anything. You do not get to
test a theorem's validity if you do not set up a falsifiable method
first to arrive at the theorem. Music is a totally subjective field of
study. What are the criteria and tools with which sound
observations/measurements can be made that may be universally verified
as established fact? In Musicology there are a few tools, almost all of
which depend on established wisdom in social sciences, most of which in
turn are subjective themselves.

Someone will again scream Argumentum ad verecundiam! but I am a
Philosophiae Doctor. You are explaning science to me.

Oz.

> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>> Formulating scales and making music with them does not entail science.
>>
>
> In what way is the process of forming an hypothesis, doing an experiment (or several experiments) to test the hypothesis, and then drawing conclusions NOT science? Because that is exactly what Michael has been doing. He has had several hypotheses about how to make scales capable of sounding "good" (for some value of "good"), which he has tested by composing (and asking others to compose) with scales developed based on these hypotheses. Based on the results, he's drawn some conclusions. Obviously, there's a lack of statistical rigor due to the narrowing sample population and the lack of quantifiable results, but it still follows the outline of the scientific method.
>
> Science, at its core, is nothing more than the philosophy that experience can substantiate or discredit beliefs or ideas, and the process of testing beliefs and ideas against experience--constantly. Everything else associated with science is formality.
>
> -Igs
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/8/2011 9:28:06 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
> What the newbies are doing has nothing to do with the scientific method.
> It's more rumination and grandiloquence than anything. You do not get to
> test a theorem's validity if you do not set up a falsifiable method
> first to arrive at the theorem.

There is some level of indulgent rumination, yes. What respectable scientist arrives immediately at an experiment-ready hypothesis without a good deal of rumination and speculative discussion with his/her colleagues? Sure, none of them have really hit on something they're ready to go forward with and submit to more rigorous scrutiny...but none of their ideas are in the least bit "unfalsifiable" or "untestable". I daresay I've falsified a few of them myself!

It's one thing if you believe "they" are simply wrong, but it would be incorrect to say their ideas are untestable. Unless, of course, you care to point out some particular ideas that you find untestable?

> Music is a totally subjective field of
> study. What are the criteria and tools with which sound
> observations/measurements can be made that may be universally verified
> as established fact? In Musicology there are a few tools, almost all of
> which depend on established wisdom in social sciences, most of which in
> turn are subjective themselves.

What is subjective about statistical correlation? None of the ideas being ruminated about on here are any more subjective than anything studied by social scientists, as all can be tested using the same basic statistical methods. The physical universe is measurable in no less statistical a manner than are human beings (and their behaviors). Nothing in any branch of the sciences is considered to be "universally verified as established fact"--it is only "that which has yet to be falsified". Furthermore, it is impossible to measure anything without a margin of error, it is impossible to observe anything with 100% accuracy, and it is only through frequent repetition of experiments--drawing the largest sampling base possible--that ANY branch of science arrives at any meaningful conclusion. Further still, even the most meaningful conclusion is NEVER 100%, NEVER "universally true"--the best it can be is a "high probability". This is as true of physics as it is for sociology.

> Someone will again scream Argumentum ad verecundiam! but I am a
> Philosophiae Doctor. You are explaning science to me.

Indeed I am. You are clearly in need of a refresher course on the basics.

-Igs

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/8/2011 9:55:54 PM

Igs, do you imagine that I am hearing your explanations on science and
measurement precision limitations for the first time? And you imagine
further that I have said anything different than you? Your patronizing
is not constructive and is not needed, nor are you in a position to
refresh Dr. Oz.'s understanding of the scientific paradigm. And
moreover, you fail to comprehend that you can statistically correlate
any chunk of data, even those gained from numerology. Our so-called
social scientists and economists in Turkiye regularly display their
prowess as such. For example, you can open up the US constitution, find
every place the word "public" appears and distribute the frequency of
their occurrence by pages against the word "law" to draw a conclusion
leading to the importance of "public" vs "law". The interpretation of
statistical distributions is always subjective and speculative not only
due to precision limitation but because the measurements are determined
on/by/for subjects. What amounts to anything here for tuning is hard
acoustical data. Flying messages in a heated mailing group on differing
tastes settled on no solid ground is NOT hard data, that you could even
begin to correlate anything scientifically.

Oz.

> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>> What the newbies are doing has nothing to do with the scientific method.
>> It's more rumination and grandiloquence than anything. You do not get to
>> test a theorem's validity if you do not set up a falsifiable method
>> first to arrive at the theorem.
>
> There is some level of indulgent rumination, yes. What respectable scientist arrives immediately at an experiment-ready hypothesis without a good deal of rumination and speculative discussion with his/her colleagues? Sure, none of them have really hit on something they're ready to go forward with and submit to more rigorous scrutiny...but none of their ideas are in the least bit "unfalsifiable" or "untestable". I daresay I've falsified a few of them myself!
>
> It's one thing if you believe "they" are simply wrong, but it would be incorrect to say their ideas are untestable. Unless, of course, you care to point out some particular ideas that you find untestable?
>
>> Music is a totally subjective field of
>> study. What are the criteria and tools with which sound
>> observations/measurements can be made that may be universally verified
>> as established fact? In Musicology there are a few tools, almost all of
>> which depend on established wisdom in social sciences, most of which in
>> turn are subjective themselves.
>
> What is subjective about statistical correlation? None of the ideas being ruminated about on here are any more subjective than anything studied by social scientists, as all can be tested using the same basic statistical methods. The physical universe is measurable in no less statistical a manner than are human beings (and their behaviors). Nothing in any branch of the sciences is considered to be "universally verified as established fact"--it is only "that which has yet to be falsified". Furthermore, it is impossible to measure anything without a margin of error, it is impossible to observe anything with 100% accuracy, and it is only through frequent repetition of experiments--drawing the largest sampling base possible--that ANY branch of science arrives at any meaningful conclusion. Further still, even the most meaningful conclusion is NEVER 100%, NEVER "universally true"--the best it can be is a "high probability". This is as true of physics as it is for sociology.
>
>> Someone will again scream Argumentum ad verecundiam! but I am a
>> Philosophiae Doctor. You are explaning science to me.
>
> Indeed I am. You are clearly in need of a refresher course on the basics.
>
> -Igs
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 12:22:45 AM

Statistics would prove that people prefer 12 ET over all your favorites.
Now is that useful for your music?
absolutely not.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 9/01/11 4:28 PM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
>
>
> What is subjective about statistical correlation? None of the > ideas being ruminated about on here are any more subjective > than anything studied by social scientists, as all can be > tested using the same basic statistical methods.
>
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/9/2011 12:36:13 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:

> Someone will again scream Argumentum ad verecundiam! but I am a
> Philosophiae Doctor. You are explaning science to me.

I never scream in Latin. It requires too much effort.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 1:10:52 AM

quite nice~!

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 5/01/11 9:12 AM, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Igliashon Jones/Lurid Occlusion.mp3
> Uploaded by : cityoftheasleep <igliashon@... > <mailto:igliashon%40sbcglobal.net>>
> Description : In Michael S.'s most recent max-dissonance tuning
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/Igliashon%20Jones/Lurid%20Occlusion.mp3 >
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> cityoftheasleep <igliashon@... > <mailto:igliashon%40sbcglobal.net>>
>
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/9/2011 3:41:06 AM

> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
>> Someone will again scream Argumentum ad verecundiam! but I am a
>> Philosophiae Doctor. You are explaning science to me.
>
> I never scream in Latin. It requires too much effort.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/9/2011 4:13:11 AM

We could call that statistical Igstribution. :)

Hah hah hah.

Oz.

> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
> Statistics would prove that people prefer 12 ET over all your
> favorites.
> Now is that useful for your music?
> absolutely not.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island<http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
> <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
> On 9/01/11 4:28 PM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
>> What is subjective about statistical correlation? None of the
>> ideas being ruminated about on here are any more subjective
>> than anything studied by social scientists, as all can be
>> tested using the same basic statistical methods.
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 7:00:49 AM

Ozan>"You do not get to test a theorem's validity if you do not set up a
falsifiable method first to arrive at the theorem."

What "fact" is this ignorance based on?! I went through pain to devise an
entire computer program to do exactly that...factual test how far off EVERY
SINGLE dyad in the scale is from its ideal value (IE 5-limit and 11-limit values
agreed by those on the tuning list, NOT JUST ME, to be favorable).
You can't argue with that fact...that the cent values in each 7-note mod in
the scale are more than 8 cents of values specified in a list of "ideal" dyads.

Yes, you can argue "you chose the wrong dyad list"...but the same can be said
for ANY tuning or scale...including "cult favorites" like 22TET, 31TET, 53TET,
and more.
Granted, you could argue "but...who defines how close a dyad is to be
accurate...you chose the wrong people to help build your 'ideal dyad list"!"
Kraig, John, and many others have said 7 cents is a good benchmark and I used
the...Gene has said within 2-3 cents but getting that kind of accuracy for every
dyad in a 7 note scale/mode is not mathematically possible...so I "settled" for
7 cents. If you think 7 cents is too much error...what you can factually say it
"what the experiment uses to define as pure gives too much slack, in my opinion"
but you can't say it was not based on measurable, factual parameters...because
it was!

Igs said,
"Further still, even the most meaningful conclusion is NEVER 100%, NEVER
"universally true"--the best it can be is a "high probability". This is as true
of physics as it is for sociology."

So I am specifically measuring accuracy of all dyads to a desired list of
dyads (most of which were given as suggestions by people on the tuning list, NOT
arbitrarily decided by myself) and gaining my "benchmark" for what qualifies as
"close enough to pure" from several other people. So yes, I'm aiming straight
for a high probability the dyads I chose will work for most people...and now I'm
testing the scales DIRECTLY via music on other people. Ozan, dare I ask you,
what more can you ask so far as testing (especially given the limited human
resources/test subject I have access to as a non-professor)?!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 7:26:28 AM

Ozan>"For example, you can open up the US constitution, find every place the
word "public" appears and distribute the frequency of their occurrence by pages
against the word "law" to draw a conclusion leading to the importance of
"public" vs "law"."

But context is important. Say they analyzed fish who died around the time
of the BP spill and found 95% of them had oil, and no other poisons or diseases,
in their systems...and drew the conclusion the oil would very likely be
responsible. According to your analogy above...you would also say their
correlation is scientifically irrelevant. If you did indeed mean "statistical
analysis is irrelevant to the scientific method"...see how ridiculous the
argument you just stated is?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 7:46:49 AM

Kraig>"Statistics would prove that people prefer 12 ET over all your
favorites.
Now is that useful for your music? absolutely not."

My problem with that survey is it has about the detail of a quiz that someone
would write on Facebook at random, making a broad sweeping generalization
without specific evidence on why/how it is that way. Saying blacks are
naturally criminals because most criminals in an area are black would be a
similar sweeping generalization (the criminals in the area could bear a much
stronger correlation to a deep issue, like blacks being zoned into bad
neighborhoods and forced out of jobs, or an even deeper issue behind that).

Now say someone tried to make a detailed quiz. Someone could take the
dyads from 12TET and test them individually and find that people largely prefer
a huge list of dyads NOT in 12TET to the 12TET variations or even microtonal
chords to chords in 12TET. They could then come up with a list of tunings with
such chords or dyads and test those against 12TET. And, more likely than not, a
good handful of those tunings would be rated better than 12TET.

When I worked on statistical correlations for my dyadic scale...I started with
the basics and worked my way up, rather than making sweeping generalizations.
First, I got a list of dyads people on this list favored. Then I got a
parameter of required accuracy (< 8 cents) from several people on this list by
which to test all the dyads in my scale. Then I made an example of most of the
triads that occur in my scale that are UNCOMMON with 12TET to make sure those
panned out OK with listeners. And then, I made compositions with the Dimension
scale...and even got a note from someone on this list saying the result was one
of the smoothest sounding songs he'd heard and yet recognizably
xenharmonic...and I'm still waiting for responses from people I've asked to try
composing with the scale.

Now if that does not qualify as musically-tied-in testing, what does?!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/9/2011 7:49:47 AM

It would be irrelevant if the statistical arguments were not backed by
toxicity analysis on the fish. That is hard science. Statistical
distribution is the tool for support of the conjecture. Compare this to
what you are doing.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> Ozan>"For example, you can open up the US constitution, find every place the
> word "public" appears and distribute the frequency of their occurrence by pages
> against the word "law" to draw a conclusion leading to the importance of
> "public" vs "law"."
>
> But context is important. Say they analyzed fish who died around the time
> of the BP spill and found 95% of them had oil, and no other poisons or diseases,
> in their systems...and drew the conclusion the oil would very likely be
> responsible. According to your analogy above...you would also say their
> correlation is scientifically irrelevant. If you did indeed mean "statistical
> analysis is irrelevant to the scientific method"...see how ridiculous the
> argument you just stated is?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 8:14:26 AM

>"It would be irrelevant if the statistical arguments were not backed by toxicity
>analysis on the fish. That is hard science."

----------------------------THE BELOW (AGAIN) IS MY SPECIFIC TESTING
METHOD--------------
Right, and my equivalent to "Toxicity Analysis" includes the following
A) Hard numeric measurement of EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE DYAD in each mode of my
scale to a fixed list of desirable dyads (dyads gathered from suggestions by
people like Igs and Cameron)
B) Doing so against a fixed tolerance of < 8 cents (suggested by people such as
Kraig and John).
C) Then I tested the results as chords on MMM (see the Dimension scale dyads
example in my folder) and asked people to listen.

D) Then I made songs with the Dimension scale and again asked people to listen
and rate them.

E) Then I asked Igs, Chris, and others to try composing with the scale and tell
me what they think and what problems they found along the way.

At ALL points of the process...I asked for input from OTHER PEOPLE and did NOT
simply stick with my own assumptions without outside input. Now if you think I
could have found a better WAY to ask them or get parameters, for example, please
say so and how!
----------------------------
Now why does that fail to count to you as specifics?! Or what would Ozan do
(if he were me) as a test that would qualify as specific or enough?

You've given your complaints repeatedly...now either give a fair alternative
to me...or simply be a hypocrit and don't help at all. If you want to criticize
my method...you need to say specifically what's missing in testing, not give
some grandiose complaints IE say it's "psuedoscience" while never even bothering
to reference a single part of method I used to actually test my scale in your
explanation of WHY you think it's psuedoscience.

If you want to disprove me, you must ALSO give specific examples...and from
what I've SAID my research has been, not what you "guess" my research has
been...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/9/2011 10:31:09 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
Gene has said within 2-3 cents but getting that kind of accuracy for every
> dyad in a 7 note scale/mode is not mathematically possible.

I said that was my ideal. Seven cents is a reasonable error bar, but since JI is quite possible in a seven note scale it's hardly mathematically impossible to choose another.

> So I am specifically measuring accuracy of all dyads to a desired list of
> dyads (most of which were given as suggestions by people on the tuning list, NOT
> arbitrarily decided by myself)

It wasn't suggested by me. I'd suggest that for starting out with you might try the 7-limit tonality diamond as target intervals for a seven note scale. See if you can match the diatonic scale in quantity of 7-limit intervals.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/9/2011 10:37:33 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> First, I got a list of dyads people on this list favored.

Which, when you present your scales, you never cite.

Then I got a
> parameter of required accuracy (< 8 cents) from several people on this list by
> which to test all the dyads in my scale.

Which you never list, giving numbers of each kind.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 1:17:28 PM

in this case what makes it true is not statistics.
One cannot find something else that killed the fish.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 10/01/11 2:26 AM, Michael wrote:
>
> Ozan>"For example, you can open up the US constitution, find > every place the
> word "public" appears and distribute the frequency of their > occurrence by pages
> against the word "law" to draw a conclusion leading to the > importance of
> "public" vs "law"."
>
> But context is important. Say they analyzed fish who died > around the time
> of the BP spill and found 95% of them had oil, and no other > poisons or diseases,
> in their systems...and drew the conclusion the oil would very > likely be
> responsible. According to your analogy above...you would also > say their
> correlation is scientifically irrelevant. If you did indeed > mean "statistical
> analysis is irrelevant to the scientific method"...see how > ridiculous the
> argument you just stated is?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 1:19:30 PM

who are you going to test and how many?
dyads is a bad way cause it has little to do with music

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 10/01/11 2:46 AM, Michael wrote:
>
> Kraig>"Statistics would prove that people prefer 12 ET over > all your
> favorites.
> Now is that useful for your music? absolutely not."
>
> My problem with that survey is it has about the detail of a > quiz that someone
> would write on Facebook at random, making a broad sweeping > generalization
> without specific evidence on why/how it is that way. Saying > blacks are
> naturally criminals because most criminals in an area are > black would be a
> similar sweeping generalization (the criminals in the area > could bear a much
> stronger correlation to a deep issue, like blacks being zoned > into bad
> neighborhoods and forced out of jobs, or an even deeper issue > behind that).
>
> Now say someone tried to make a detailed quiz. Someone could > take the
> dyads from 12TET and test them individually and find that > people largely prefer
> a huge list of dyads NOT in 12TET to the 12TET variations or > even microtonal
> chords to chords in 12TET. They could then come up with a list > of tunings with
> such chords or dyads and test those against 12TET. And, more > likely than not, a
> good handful of those tunings would be rated better than 12TET.
>
> When I worked on statistical correlations for my dyadic > scale...I started with
> the basics and worked my way up, rather than making sweeping > generalizations.
> First, I got a list of dyads people on this list favored. Then > I got a
> parameter of required accuracy (< 8 cents) from several people > on this list by
> which to test all the dyads in my scale. Then I made an > example of most of the
> triads that occur in my scale that are UNCOMMON with 12TET to > make sure those
> panned out OK with listeners. And then, I made compositions > with the Dimension
> scale...and even got a note from someone on this list saying > the result was one
> of the smoothest sounding songs he'd heard and yet recognizably
> xenharmonic...and I'm still waiting for responses from people > I've asked to try
> composing with the scale.
>
> Now if that does not qualify as musically-tied-in testing, > what does?!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 1:20:24 PM

i do not subscribe to a 7-8 cent at all.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 10/01/11 3:14 AM, Michael wrote:
>
> >"It would be irrelevant if the statistical arguments were not > backed by toxicity
> >analysis on the fish. That is hard science."
>
> ----------------------------THE BELOW (AGAIN) IS MY SPECIFIC > TESTING
> METHOD--------------
> Right, and my equivalent to "Toxicity Analysis" includes the > following
> A) Hard numeric measurement of EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE DYAD in > each mode of my
> scale to a fixed list of desirable dyads (dyads gathered from > suggestions by
> people like Igs and Cameron)
> B) Doing so against a fixed tolerance of < 8 cents (suggested > by people such as
> Kraig and John).
> C) Then I tested the results as chords on MMM (see the > Dimension scale dyads
> example in my folder) and asked people to listen.
>
> D) Then I made songs with the Dimension scale and again asked > people to listen
> and rate them.
>
> E) Then I asked Igs, Chris, and others to try composing with > the scale and tell
> me what they think and what problems they found along the way.
>
> At ALL points of the process...I asked for input from OTHER > PEOPLE and did NOT
> simply stick with my own assumptions without outside input. > Now if you think I
> could have found a better WAY to ask them or get parameters, > for example, please
> say so and how!
> ----------------------------
> Now why does that fail to count to you as specifics?! Or what > would Ozan do
> (if he were me) as a test that would qualify as specific or > enough?
>
> You've given your complaints repeatedly...now either give a > fair alternative
> to me...or simply be a hypocrit and don't help at all. If you > want to criticize
> my method...you need to say specifically what's missing in > testing, not give
> some grandiose complaints IE say it's "psuedoscience" while > never even bothering
> to reference a single part of method I used to actually test > my scale in your
> explanation of WHY you think it's psuedoscience.
>
> If you want to disprove me, you must ALSO give specific > examples...and from
> what I've SAID my research has been, not what you "guess" my > research has
> been...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/9/2011 2:12:26 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Igs, do you imagine that I am hearing your explanations on science and
> measurement precision limitations for the first time? And you imagine
> further that I have said anything different than you?

I should certainly hope NOT. With a PhD level of education, I would imagine you'd have to be exposed to certain ideas. But then, as my academic background is also in philosophy, I am quite aware of the fact that these issues are not exactly settled, and there are philosophers with a great deal more prestige than yourself who take quite an opposing view, or at least who subscribe to the view (as I do) that science as an institution and science as a method are two very different things, and that while a lack of rigor often means a weakness of conclusion, it does NOT mean something is not "science".

> Your patronizing
> is not constructive and is not needed, nor are you in a position to
> refresh Dr. Oz.'s understanding of the scientific paradigm.

Your patronizing is no more constructive than my own. If you wish me to cease mine, I suggest you lead by example--you are, after all, the more refined, more mature scholar, are you not?

> And
> moreover, you fail to comprehend that you can statistically correlate
> any chunk of data, even those gained from numerology.

My dear Ozan, I assure you that I have received instruction in these subjects by professors of no lesser qualifications than those you yourself possess (and some of perhaps greater qualification). If you think your hand-waving at the most elementary objections toward statistical methodologies will get any more than a chuckle out of me, I'm afraid you are mistaken.

> Our so-called
> social scientists and economists in Turkiye regularly display their
> prowess as such. For example, you can open up the US constitution, find
> every place the word "public" appears and distribute the frequency of
> their occurrence by pages against the word "law" to draw a conclusion
> leading to the importance of "public" vs "law". The interpretation of
> statistical distributions is always subjective and speculative not only
> due to precision limitation but because the measurements are determined
> on/by/for subjects.

Surely you must see the flaw in this analogy. The strength of a statistical correlation depends entirely on the level to which variables are isolated and controlled.

> What amounts to anything here for tuning is hard
> acoustical data. Flying messages in a heated mailing group on differing
> tastes settled on no solid ground is NOT hard data, that you could even
> begin to correlate anything scientifically.

It is a well-known practice in the development of pharmaceuticals that trials progress incrementally, gradually increasing both population size and diversity. If a drug fails to demonstrate sufficient safety and efficacy in a small and very restricted sample population, further trials are not conducted.

Here, and on the tuning list, we have a small sample population indeed, but there is no reason to suspect there is no value in using this population for preliminary tests. In the case of at least Michael, he has an hypothesis that is quite testable, though he acknowledges it is in need of refinement. Specifically, he hypothesizes that some intervals sound "good" in music and that others sound "bad", and that scales composed of "bad"-sounding intervals will result in music that sounds "bad", while scales composed of "good"-sounding intervals will produce music that sounds "good". Yes, this is subjective, but the rather "universal" nature of these claims makes them easily falsifiable. Even with a tiny sample pool. If just one person can write music which sounds "good" with his "bad" scale and "bad" with his "good" scale--even if the music only sounds that way to a small handful of people--that's enough evidence to reject the experimental hypothesis. A more refined hypothesis would, of course, necessitate more rigorous design and more rigorous testing. But such simple, broad, universally-oriented hypotheses as the ones often advanced by the "newbies" can easily be falsified with very lax procedures.

-Igs

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 2:28:18 PM

Igs>"Here, and on the tuning list, we have a small sample population indeed, but
there is no reason to suspect there is no value in using this population for
preliminary tests. In the case of at least Michael, he has an hypothesis that is
quite testable, though he acknowledges it is in need of refinement.
Specifically, he hypothesizes that some intervals sound "good" in music and that
others sound "bad", and that scales composed of "bad"-sounding intervals will
result in music that sounds "bad", while scales composed of "good"-sounding
intervals will produce music that sounds "good"."

That is a grossly incomplete and partly out-of-context interpretation of my
hypothesis! And where do you get off saying what my hypothesis is without
either quoting me or asking me...doesn't it make sense I know more about what
I'm trying to do with my hypothesis than either of you considering I made it?!

Anyhow., the part you got right is "some intervals sound "good" in music and
that others sound "bad"".
But the second part you interpreted in a very incomplete and out-of-context
fashion. The correct way to say it is

A) "scales composed of "good"-sounding intervals will be MORE LIKELY TO produce
music that sounds "good".
B) Futhermore, the example filters down to situations such as follow: if you
give a set of composers a "good" and a "bad" scale and have them make several
pieces of music (each one from scratch to fit the moods of the scales...and
NEVER simply retuning existing songs)...the ones made with the "good" scale will
receive significantly better reception among listeners on the average.

Now given that sort of test...would you consider the results significant,
what would you change to set up a complete/testable environment, and/or would
you be willing to help me test the hypothesis I stated?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 2:30:37 PM

and this is impossible to do with music discussed on this list. music cannot be isolated

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 10/01/11 9:12 AM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
>
>
> Surely you must see the flaw in this analogy. The strength of > a statistical correlation depends entirely on the level to > which variables are isolated and controlled.
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/9/2011 2:33:17 PM

>My dear Ozan, I assure you that I have received instruction in these
>subjects by professors of no lesser qualifications than those you
>yourself possess (and some of perhaps greater qualification). If you
>think your hand-waving at the most elementary objections toward
>statistical methodologies will get any more than a chuckle out of me,
>I'm afraid you are mistaken.

I haven't seen any evidence of anything resembling science from
the Michael camp. Now can we take this offlist?

-Carl

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/9/2011 2:42:38 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> Anyhow., the part you got right is "some intervals sound "good" in music and
> that others sound "bad"".
> But the second part you interpreted in a very incomplete and out-of-context
> fashion. The correct way to say it is
>
> A) "scales composed of "good"-sounding intervals will be MORE LIKELY TO produce
> music that sounds "good".
> B) Futhermore, the example filters down to situations such as follow: if you
> give a set of composers a "good" and a "bad" scale and have them make several
> pieces of music (each one from scratch to fit the moods of the scales...and
> NEVER simply retuning existing songs)...the ones made with the "good" scale will
> receive significantly better reception among listeners on the average.
>
> Now given that sort of test...would you consider the results significant,
> what would you change to set up a complete/testable environment, and/or would
> you be willing to help me test the hypothesis I stated?

Well, if that indeed is your hypothesis, then it is demanding of an experimental design and statistical rigor vastly more sophisticated than I am capable of assisting with. It would be impossible to escape the lurking variable of "composer bias", as far as I can see, though accessing a large enough sample population would be simple enough with Mechanical Turk (or even a site like Last.fm). Nevertheless, a composer's sympathy (or lack thereof) for the scales will skew the quality of his/her compositions in said scales, and I can't think of how you could control that.

-Igs

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/9/2011 2:52:30 PM

You are just so full of hot air Igs. And it is I who is chuckling at
your act of a misbehaven rugrat who does not even comprehend the message
of his peer in whose defense he puts his neck in line.

Blow your steam elsewhere, because you are not having the desired effect
you seek on Dr. Oz.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

cityoftheasleep wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>> Igs, do you imagine that I am hearing your explanations on science and
>> measurement precision limitations for the first time? And you imagine
>> further that I have said anything different than you?
>
> I should certainly hope NOT. With a PhD level of education, I would imagine you'd have to be exposed to certain ideas. But then, as my academic background is also in philosophy, I am quite aware of the fact that these issues are not exactly settled, and there are philosophers with a great deal more prestige than yourself who take quite an opposing view, or at least who subscribe to the view (as I do) that science as an institution and science as a method are two very different things, and that while a lack of rigor often means a weakness of conclusion, it does NOT mean something is not "science".
>
>> Your patronizing
>> is not constructive and is not needed, nor are you in a position to
>> refresh Dr. Oz.'s understanding of the scientific paradigm.
>
> Your patronizing is no more constructive than my own. If you wish me to cease mine, I suggest you lead by example--you are, after all, the more refined, more mature scholar, are you not?
>
>> And
>> moreover, you fail to comprehend that you can statistically correlate
>> any chunk of data, even those gained from numerology.
>
> My dear Ozan, I assure you that I have received instruction in these subjects by professors of no lesser qualifications than those you yourself possess (and some of perhaps greater qualification). If you think your hand-waving at the most elementary objections toward statistical methodologies will get any more than a chuckle out of me, I'm afraid you are mistaken.
>
>> Our so-called
>> social scientists and economists in Turkiye regularly display their
>> prowess as such. For example, you can open up the US constitution, find
>> every place the word "public" appears and distribute the frequency of
>> their occurrence by pages against the word "law" to draw a conclusion
>> leading to the importance of "public" vs "law". The interpretation of
>> statistical distributions is always subjective and speculative not only
>> due to precision limitation but because the measurements are determined
>> on/by/for subjects.
>
> Surely you must see the flaw in this analogy. The strength of a statistical correlation depends entirely on the level to which variables are isolated and controlled.
>
>> What amounts to anything here for tuning is hard
>> acoustical data. Flying messages in a heated mailing group on differing
>> tastes settled on no solid ground is NOT hard data, that you could even
>> begin to correlate anything scientifically.
>
> It is a well-known practice in the development of pharmaceuticals that trials progress incrementally, gradually increasing both population size and diversity. If a drug fails to demonstrate sufficient safety and efficacy in a small and very restricted sample population, further trials are not conducted.
>
> Here, and on the tuning list, we have a small sample population indeed, but there is no reason to suspect there is no value in using this population for preliminary tests. In the case of at least Michael, he has an hypothesis that is quite testable, though he acknowledges it is in need of refinement. Specifically, he hypothesizes that some intervals sound "good" in music and that others sound "bad", and that scales composed of "bad"-sounding intervals will result in music that sounds "bad", while scales composed of "good"-sounding intervals will produce music that sounds "good". Yes, this is subjective, but the rather "universal" nature of these claims makes them easily falsifiable. Even with a tiny sample pool. If just one person can write music which sounds "good" with his "bad" scale and "bad" with his "good" scale--even if the music only sounds that way to a small handful of people--that's enough evidence to reject the experimental hypothesis. A more refined hypothesis would, of course, necessitate more rigorous design and more rigorous testing. But such simple, broad, universally-oriented hypotheses as the ones often advanced by the "newbies" can easily be falsified with very lax procedures.
>
> -Igs
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 2:53:00 PM

Igs>"Nevertheless, a composer's sympathy (or lack thereof) for the scales will
skew the quality of his/her compositions in said scales, and I can't think of
how you could control that."

That is, I believe you are right, somewhat inevitable. Then again, testing
if anything so far as musical theory results in better composition (including
things like Ozan's scales and theories, for example) would be subject to the
uncertainly of composer bias toward it in testing...correct?
It seems to be inevitable for any type of musical testing involving
composition, period...

>"I can see, though accessing a large enough sample population would be simple
>enough with Mechanical Turk (or even a site like Last.fm)."

Thank you...these are excellent ideas! It also by and large solves my
"sample population" problem. I figure this would require not only myself...but
likely you, Chris, and at least a few other composers.

Let's say we each made 2 songs in each scale system (2 in Dimension, 2 in
12TET, and 2 in my "bad" tuning)...all of the same genre and tempo with the same
instruments/sample-set (IE "all else equal")...and then threw it at/on the
"Mechanical Turk". Would you be game for that and/or can you or anyone else see
a way to protect better against lack of bias in the experiment?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>

1/9/2011 2:53:49 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

> It is a well-known practice in the development of pharmaceuticals that trials progress incrementally, gradually increasing both population size and diversity. If a drug fails to demonstrate sufficient safety and efficacy in a small and very restricted sample population, further trials are not conducted.

I suspect this is the policy that leads to this:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer

Kalle

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 3:19:43 PM

Kalle>"http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer"

>"Jennions, similarly, argues that the decline effect is largely a product of
>publication bias, or the tendency of scientists and scientific journals to
>prefer positive data over null results, which is what happens when no effect is
>found." -http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer

This is very interesting. The quote above seems to imply those who demand
results (in my case, people like Ozan and Igs) come in with the attitude of
"either it's 100% true or untrue...or your work is useless"...and this causes
the actual person doing the research to not publish any results of
"inconclusive/null".
So (as an example, as I undestand it)...if I did my experiment 10 times and 9
times the result was inconclusive and 1 time it was positive...according to
said-above problem I'd be tempted to publish the one positive and not include
the other 9 times when calculating the statistical curve.

It's a good thing to watch out for...to realize that reporting a result as
"inconclusive" is just as important as reporting those results that are
conclusively negative or positive.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 3:42:32 PM

Carl>"I haven't seen any evidence of anything resembling science from
the Michael camp. Now can we take this offlist?"

Carl, by all means, if you are all complaints and no solutions like
this...please keep it offlist!
If you don't like a discussion and can't do anything but complain (not to
mention..without direct evidence), don't join. That's just common etiquette.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 3:45:34 PM

Kraig>"i do not subscribe to a 7-8 cent at all."

I do recall you saying something about 7 cents or less...but, since you are now
making it clear either you never said that or I misinterpreted...what is your
definition of a "reasonable degree of dyadic error"?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/9/2011 3:50:47 PM

Michael wrote:

>If you don't like a discussion and can't do anything but complain (not to
>mention..without direct evidence), don't join. That's just common etiquette.

I'm wasn't complaining, I was telling Igs that Ozan is right, so
hopefully he'd put his time to better use. Your time, it doesn't
so much matter. So feel free to keep contributing post after post
of pure nonsense. Nothing is being lost.

-Carl

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/9/2011 4:28:36 PM

Michael, to begin with it from the start, your language, your tone, your
emotional upheavels preclude proper scientific research. Chill down for
a moment and attain composure.

For a second thing, what you are doing is assuming too many things at
once. You assume that dyads being off from their predetermined popular
JI positions actually amount to something detrimental to beautiful music
making. So many instances contrary to this is evident beyond the point
of argument regardless of how many JI fetishists hereabouts clamour for
the import of harmonic proportions in scale construction.

For a third thing, you do not give any concrete reasons why error
tolerance can be maximum 7 cents and not lower or higher for any set of
ratios. The criteria for this choice is highly subjective. Where is the
acoustical experimentation coupled with MR assisted test surveys to
support it?

For a fourth thing, you overestimate the importance of scale in music,
as if a particular alteration therein could result in a huge shift in
the paradigm of what makes music palatable or unpalatable.

Ok, so you are benchmarking - in scholarly fashion perhaps. That's cool,
but I doubt the scholarly part. You are disorganized and unsystematic.
And yes, it's not science. You are merely trying/discovering techniques
for new scales that may or may not exhibit characteristics you claim
they do in a given musical example.

But enough already. These factoids are too common to pronounce even
HERE. And if you actually want to entertain the notion of scientific
recognition, try to get your investigative materials published in a
peer-reviewed journal, and let's see where that gets you.

Cordially,
Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> Ozan>"You do not get to test a theorem's validity if you do not set up a
> falsifiable method first to arrive at the theorem."
>
> What "fact" is this ignorance based on?! I went through pain to devise an
> entire computer program to do exactly that...factual test how far off EVERY
> SINGLE dyad in the scale is from its ideal value (IE 5-limit and 11-limit values
> agreed by those on the tuning list, NOT JUST ME, to be favorable).
> You can't argue with that fact...that the cent values in each 7-note mod in
> the scale are more than 8 cents of values specified in a list of "ideal" dyads.
>
>
> Yes, you can argue "you chose the wrong dyad list"...but the same can be said
> for ANY tuning or scale...including "cult favorites" like 22TET, 31TET, 53TET,
> and more.
> Granted, you could argue "but...who defines how close a dyad is to be
> accurate...you chose the wrong people to help build your 'ideal dyad list"!"
> Kraig, John, and many others have said 7 cents is a good benchmark and I used
> the...Gene has said within 2-3 cents but getting that kind of accuracy for every
> dyad in a 7 note scale/mode is not mathematically possible...so I "settled" for
> 7 cents. If you think 7 cents is too much error...what you can factually say it
> "what the experiment uses to define as pure gives too much slack, in my opinion"
> but you can't say it was not based on measurable, factual parameters...because
> it was!
>
>
> Igs said,
> "Further still, even the most meaningful conclusion is NEVER 100%, NEVER
> "universally true"--the best it can be is a "high probability". This is as true
> of physics as it is for sociology."
>
> So I am specifically measuring accuracy of all dyads to a desired list of
> dyads (most of which were given as suggestions by people on the tuning list, NOT
> arbitrarily decided by myself) and gaining my "benchmark" for what qualifies as
> "close enough to pure" from several other people. So yes, I'm aiming straight
> for a high probability the dyads I chose will work for most people...and now I'm
> testing the scales DIRECTLY via music on other people. Ozan, dare I ask you,
> what more can you ask so far as testing (especially given the limited human
> resources/test subject I have access to as a non-professor)?!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/9/2011 4:41:09 PM

Michael, toxicity analysis through chemistry and biology is hard
science. Applied knowledge for them is established (even till falsified)
through the scientific method. Your methods is simply an itenerary of
subjectively comparative techniques... "tested" in a disorganized and
unsystematic fashion in zeal and haste relying on excessive and
exaggerated assumptions. I don't know how much more specific I can put
it for you and those like you that what you assert as science is in fact
pseudoscience, in the same spirit as alchemy, astrology, phrenology,
psychoanalysis, etc...

This might help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

This denomination does not necessarily diminish the importance of what
you do, it's just the way the world is organized.

Presto. Don't expect me to propose a valid approach that may work for
you right away just so that you do not to accuse me of hypocrisy.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
>> "It would be irrelevant if the statistical arguments were not backed by toxicity
>> analysis on the fish. That is hard science."
>
> ----------------------------THE BELOW (AGAIN) IS MY SPECIFIC TESTING
> METHOD--------------
> Right, and my equivalent to "Toxicity Analysis" includes the following
> A) Hard numeric measurement of EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE DYAD in each mode of my
> scale to a fixed list of desirable dyads (dyads gathered from suggestions by
> people like Igs and Cameron)
> B) Doing so against a fixed tolerance of< 8 cents (suggested by people such as
> Kraig and John).
> C) Then I tested the results as chords on MMM (see the Dimension scale dyads
> example in my folder) and asked people to listen.
>
> D) Then I made songs with the Dimension scale and again asked people to listen
> and rate them.
>
> E) Then I asked Igs, Chris, and others to try composing with the scale and tell
> me what they think and what problems they found along the way.
>
> At ALL points of the process...I asked for input from OTHER PEOPLE and did NOT
> simply stick with my own assumptions without outside input. Now if you think I
> could have found a better WAY to ask them or get parameters, for example, please
> say so and how!
> ----------------------------
> Now why does that fail to count to you as specifics?! Or what would Ozan do
> (if he were me) as a test that would qualify as specific or enough?
>
> You've given your complaints repeatedly...now either give a fair alternative
> to me...or simply be a hypocrit and don't help at all. If you want to criticize
> my method...you need to say specifically what's missing in testing, not give
> some grandiose complaints IE say it's "psuedoscience" while never even bothering
> to reference a single part of method I used to actually test my scale in your
> explanation of WHY you think it's psuedoscience.
>
> If you want to disprove me, you must ALSO give specific examples...and from
> what I've SAID my research has been, not what you "guess" my research has
> been...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/9/2011 4:48:00 PM

Michael,

As an example of doing through research into the perception of music
I strongly suggest reading John O'Sllivan's book
"The Mathematics of Music: Music Theory, 12 Tone Equal Temperament and
its Origins Explained and Two New Alternative Tuning Systems"

It is available at Amazon for a modest fee of $14.50.

John's approach was to quantify his perception of music and to develop
mathematical formulas that tested his perception by extending to
untested intervals. The method is easy to understand and hard to argue
against. As a bonus the resulting tunings have been popular,
especially with the non-microtonal listeners of my compositions in
Blue JI and Blue Temperament.

Just a suggestion,

Chris

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Michael, to begin with it from the start, your language, your tone, your
> emotional upheavels preclude proper scientific research. Chill down for
> a moment and attain composure.
>
> For a second thing, what you are doing is assuming too many things at
> once. You assume that dyads being off from their predetermined popular
> JI positions actually amount to something detrimental to beautiful music
> making. So many instances contrary to this is evident beyond the point
> of argument regardless of how many JI fetishists hereabouts clamour for
> the import of harmonic proportions in scale construction.
>
> For a third thing, you do not give any concrete reasons why error
> tolerance can be maximum 7 cents and not lower or higher for any set of
> ratios. The criteria for this choice is highly subjective. Where is the
> acoustical experimentation coupled with MR assisted test surveys to
> support it?
>
> For a fourth thing, you overestimate the importance of scale in music,
> as if a particular alteration therein could result in a huge shift in
> the paradigm of what makes music palatable or unpalatable.
>
> Ok, so you are benchmarking - in scholarly fashion perhaps. That's cool,
> but I doubt the scholarly part. You are disorganized and unsystematic.
> And yes, it's not science. You are merely trying/discovering techniques
> for new scales that may or may not exhibit characteristics you claim
> they do in a given musical example.
>
> But enough already. These factoids are too common to pronounce even
> HERE. And if you actually want to entertain the notion of scientific
> recognition, try to get your investigative materials published in a
> peer-reviewed journal, and let's see where that gets you.
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> Michael wrote:
> > Ozan>"You do not get to test a theorem's validity if you do not set up a
> > falsifiable method first to arrive at the theorem."
> >
> > What "fact" is this ignorance based on?! I went through pain to devise an
> > entire computer program to do exactly that...factual test how far off EVERY
> > SINGLE dyad in the scale is from its ideal value (IE 5-limit and 11-limit values
> > agreed by those on the tuning list, NOT JUST ME, to be favorable).
> > You can't argue with that fact...that the cent values in each 7-note mod in
> > the scale are more than 8 cents of values specified in a list of "ideal" dyads.
> >
> >
> > Yes, you can argue "you chose the wrong dyad list"...but the same can be said
> > for ANY tuning or scale...including "cult favorites" like 22TET, 31TET, 53TET,
> > and more.
> > Granted, you could argue "but...who defines how close a dyad is to be
> > accurate...you chose the wrong people to help build your 'ideal dyad list"!"
> > Kraig, John, and many others have said 7 cents is a good benchmark and I used
> > the...Gene has said within 2-3 cents but getting that kind of accuracy for every
> > dyad in a 7 note scale/mode is not mathematically possible...so I "settled" for
> > 7 cents. If you think 7 cents is too much error...what you can factually say it
> > "what the experiment uses to define as pure gives too much slack, in my opinion"
> > but you can't say it was not based on measurable, factual parameters...because
> > it was!
> >
> >
> > Igs said,
> > "Further still, even the most meaningful conclusion is NEVER 100%, NEVER
> > "universally true"--the best it can be is a "high probability". This is as true
> > of physics as it is for sociology."
> >
> > So I am specifically measuring accuracy of all dyads to a desired list of
> > dyads (most of which were given as suggestions by people on the tuning list, NOT
> > arbitrarily decided by myself) and gaining my "benchmark" for what qualifies as
> > "close enough to pure" from several other people. So yes, I'm aiming straight
> > for a high probability the dyads I chose will work for most people...and now I'm
> > testing the scales DIRECTLY via music on other people. Ozan, dare I ask you,
> > what more can you ask so far as testing (especially given the limited human
> > resources/test subject I have access to as a non-professor)?!
>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

1/9/2011 4:53:38 PM

Hi Chris, I had a chance to review the said book when my senior
colleague Karaosmanoglu visited me some weeks ago with that in his hand.
The book features a somewhat modest outline of scale formulation through
a combination of experience and subjective criteria, which seem to
result in a pleasant tone-system for most Bluesy situations. Still, as
valuable an endeavour as it may be, this is not a book of science, but
the exposition and reasoning behind a special technique for tuning.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> Michael,
>
> As an example of doing through research into the perception of music
> I strongly suggest reading John O'Sllivan's book
> "The Mathematics of Music: Music Theory, 12 Tone Equal Temperament and
> its Origins Explained and Two New Alternative Tuning Systems"
>
> It is available at Amazon for a modest fee of $14.50.
>
> John's approach was to quantify his perception of music and to develop
> mathematical formulas that tested his perception by extending to
> untested intervals. The method is easy to understand and hard to argue
> against. As a bonus the resulting tunings have been popular,
> especially with the non-microtonal listeners of my compositions in
> Blue JI and Blue Temperament.
>
> Just a suggestion,
>
> Chris
>
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>>
>> Michael, to begin with it from the start, your language, your tone, your
>> emotional upheavels preclude proper scientific research. Chill down for
>> a moment and attain composure.
>>
>> For a second thing, what you are doing is assuming too many things at
>> once. You assume that dyads being off from their predetermined popular
>> JI positions actually amount to something detrimental to beautiful music
>> making. So many instances contrary to this is evident beyond the point
>> of argument regardless of how many JI fetishists hereabouts clamour for
>> the import of harmonic proportions in scale construction.
>>
>> For a third thing, you do not give any concrete reasons why error
>> tolerance can be maximum 7 cents and not lower or higher for any set of
>> ratios. The criteria for this choice is highly subjective. Where is the
>> acoustical experimentation coupled with MR assisted test surveys to
>> support it?
>>
>> For a fourth thing, you overestimate the importance of scale in music,
>> as if a particular alteration therein could result in a huge shift in
>> the paradigm of what makes music palatable or unpalatable.
>>
>> Ok, so you are benchmarking - in scholarly fashion perhaps. That's cool,
>> but I doubt the scholarly part. You are disorganized and unsystematic.
>> And yes, it's not science. You are merely trying/discovering techniques
>> for new scales that may or may not exhibit characteristics you claim
>> they do in a given musical example.
>>
>> But enough already. These factoids are too common to pronounce even
>> HERE. And if you actually want to entertain the notion of scientific
>> recognition, try to get your investigative materials published in a
>> peer-reviewed journal, and let's see where that gets you.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dr. Oz.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> Michael wrote:
>>> Ozan>"You do not get to test a theorem's validity if you do not set up a
>>> falsifiable method first to arrive at the theorem."
>>>
>>> What "fact" is this ignorance based on?! I went through pain to devise an
>>> entire computer program to do exactly that...factual test how far off EVERY
>>> SINGLE dyad in the scale is from its ideal value (IE 5-limit and 11-limit values
>>> agreed by those on the tuning list, NOT JUST ME, to be favorable).
>>> You can't argue with that fact...that the cent values in each 7-note mod in
>>> the scale are more than 8 cents of values specified in a list of "ideal" dyads.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, you can argue "you chose the wrong dyad list"...but the same can be said
>>> for ANY tuning or scale...including "cult favorites" like 22TET, 31TET, 53TET,
>>> and more.
>>> Granted, you could argue "but...who defines how close a dyad is to be
>>> accurate...you chose the wrong people to help build your 'ideal dyad list"!"
>>> Kraig, John, and many others have said 7 cents is a good benchmark and I used
>>> the...Gene has said within 2-3 cents but getting that kind of accuracy for every
>>> dyad in a 7 note scale/mode is not mathematically possible...so I "settled" for
>>> 7 cents. If you think 7 cents is too much error...what you can factually say it
>>> "what the experiment uses to define as pure gives too much slack, in my opinion"
>>> but you can't say it was not based on measurable, factual parameters...because
>>> it was!
>>>
>>>
>>> Igs said,
>>> "Further still, even the most meaningful conclusion is NEVER 100%, NEVER
>>> "universally true"--the best it can be is a "high probability". This is as true
>>> of physics as it is for sociology."
>>>
>>> So I am specifically measuring accuracy of all dyads to a desired list of
>>> dyads (most of which were given as suggestions by people on the tuning list, NOT
>>> arbitrarily decided by myself) and gaining my "benchmark" for what qualifies as
>>> "close enough to pure" from several other people. So yes, I'm aiming straight
>>> for a high probability the dyads I chose will work for most people...and now I'm
>>> testing the scales DIRECTLY via music on other people. Ozan, dare I ask you,
>>> what more can you ask so far as testing (especially given the limited human
>>> resources/test subject I have access to as a non-professor)?!
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 5:12:21 PM

Kraig>"how are you going to test and how many? dyads is a bad way cause it has
little to do with music"

Well in that case (Kraig), what's your (and others') suggested alternative(s)?

-------------------------
The original Harmonic Entropy theory and Sethares critical band dissonance
theory, both which can be used to derived the JI diatonic scale and a good chunk
of diatonic compositional theory...are both dyadic.
And both, supposedly, are meant to help judge how easy a scale would likely
be to compose desirable music in based on psychoacoustic measures.
I guess you could say that's why I've so far been judging what my scales can
most likely do musically by dyadic accuracy...it seems to be the method of
choice for the two main measures of "tuning quality" in tuning theory.

The only other blaring (and perhaps better?) alternative I can think of seems
to be to think in terms of triadic accuracy and list the triads possible in each
tuning.

My Dimension Tuning has about 27 triads if you throw in a 7-odd-limit
restriction, about 100 with an 11-(odd)-limit restriction, and about 140 with a
15-odd-limit restriction.

I tried LucyTuning and it has about 60 triads with a 7-odd-limit
restriction, about 100 with an 11-odd-limit restriction, and about 128 with a
15-odd-limit restriction.

So it seems (at least vs. LucyTuning) my tuning has a fair disadvantage far as
chord selection until you hit about 11(odd)-limit...and from then on it has an
advantage. So if you are OK with 11-plus-limit chords, my tuning may very well
be preferable to those seeking a large variety of chords available (at least vs.
Lucytuning...which isn't far at all from 12TET, which the Dimension^2 tuning is
designed to be a viable alternative to).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/9/2011 5:31:32 PM

Hello Ozan,

I have a BS degree in Chemistry and have worked as a research chemist or an
analytical chemist for an embarrassingly long time. As a result I have some
knowledge of the scientific method. John's book is a viable and dependable
method of research into his (John's) perception of music. I think if Michael
presented his ideas with a similar degree of thoroughness there woudl be
less controversy to his statements. I am not saying John's work is valid for
everyone - but it is valid for his personal perception of music and probably
is more or less valid for more people than himself to varying degrees.

I remember on the tuning list people had unpleasant things to say about
John's development of his interval evaluation calculator - I don't think
people at the time understood that he was fitting his observations to
several candidate formulae which are then used to extrapolate his
observations. This is not too different than my experience of working with
an excellent chemical engineer who made design decisions based on
interpolations of incomplete information - for example - it is impossible to
find data for the chemical you are working with if your company is the first
ever to synthesize it on a pilot plant or larger scale. So (reasonable)
guesses need to be made and data, which by necessity will be incomplete,
need to be generated. Its simply a fact that when you get to the
practicality of something you rarely have all of the information that you
would like. A good chemical engineer or chemist will chose test points that
define the problem well - and even then some assumptions are made - such as
going from data point A to data point B will be linear - or exponential - or
whatever relationship generally governs the particular data space you are
trying to describe. There is in fact a method to proper experimental design
to generate the maximum amount of data for the minimum number of experiments
and carry an acceptable degree of risk. And the goal is *not* to explain
every fact of every possible facet of the subject.

Chris

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi Chris, I had a chance to review the said book when my senior
> colleague Karaosmanoglu visited me some weeks ago with that in his hand.
> The book features a somewhat modest outline of scale formulation through
> a combination of experience and subjective criteria, which seem to
> result in a pleasant tone-system for most Bluesy situations. Still, as
> valuable an endeavour as it may be, this is not a book of science, but
> the exposition and reasoning behind a special technique for tuning.
>
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> > Michael,
> >
> > As an example of doing through research into the perception of music
> > I strongly suggest reading John O'Sllivan's book
> > "The Mathematics of Music: Music Theory, 12 Tone Equal Temperament and
> > its Origins Explained and Two New Alternative Tuning Systems"
> >
> > It is available at Amazon for a modest fee of $14.50.
> >
> > John's approach was to quantify his perception of music and to develop
> > mathematical formulas that tested his perception by extending to
> > untested intervals. The method is easy to understand and hard to argue
> > against. As a bonus the resulting tunings have been popular,
> > especially with the non-microtonal listeners of my compositions in
> > Blue JI and Blue Temperament.
> >
> > Just a suggestion,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...<ozanyarman%40ozanyarman.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael, to begin with it from the start, your language, your tone, your
> >> emotional upheavels preclude proper scientific research. Chill down for
> >> a moment and attain composure.
> >>
> >> For a second thing, what you are doing is assuming too many things at
> >> once. You assume that dyads being off from their predetermined popular
> >> JI positions actually amount to something detrimental to beautiful music
> >> making. So many instances contrary to this is evident beyond the point
> >> of argument regardless of how many JI fetishists hereabouts clamour for
> >> the import of harmonic proportions in scale construction.
> >>
> >> For a third thing, you do not give any concrete reasons why error
> >> tolerance can be maximum 7 cents and not lower or higher for any set of
> >> ratios. The criteria for this choice is highly subjective. Where is the
> >> acoustical experimentation coupled with MR assisted test surveys to
> >> support it?
> >>
> >> For a fourth thing, you overestimate the importance of scale in music,
> >> as if a particular alteration therein could result in a huge shift in
> >> the paradigm of what makes music palatable or unpalatable.
> >>
> >> Ok, so you are benchmarking - in scholarly fashion perhaps. That's cool,
> >> but I doubt the scholarly part. You are disorganized and unsystematic.
> >> And yes, it's not science. You are merely trying/discovering techniques
> >> for new scales that may or may not exhibit characteristics you claim
> >> they do in a given musical example.
> >>
> >> But enough already. These factoids are too common to pronounce even
> >> HERE. And if you actually want to entertain the notion of scientific
> >> recognition, try to get your investigative materials published in a
> >> peer-reviewed journal, and let's see where that gets you.
> >>
> >> Cordially,
> >> Dr. Oz.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> ✩ ✩ ✩
> >> www.ozanyarman.com
> >>
> >> Michael wrote:
> >>> Ozan>"You do not get to test a theorem's validity if you do not set up
> a
> >>> falsifiable method first to arrive at the theorem."
> >>>
> >>> What "fact" is this ignorance based on?! I went through pain to devise
> an
> >>> entire computer program to do exactly that...factual test how far off
> EVERY
> >>> SINGLE dyad in the scale is from its ideal value (IE 5-limit and
> 11-limit values
> >>> agreed by those on the tuning list, NOT JUST ME, to be favorable).
> >>> You can't argue with that fact...that the cent values in each 7-note
> mod in
> >>> the scale are more than 8 cents of values specified in a list of
> "ideal" dyads.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, you can argue "you chose the wrong dyad list"...but the same can
> be said
> >>> for ANY tuning or scale...including "cult favorites" like 22TET, 31TET,
> 53TET,
> >>> and more.
> >>> Granted, you could argue "but...who defines how close a dyad is to be
> >>> accurate...you chose the wrong people to help build your 'ideal dyad
> list"!"
> >>> Kraig, John, and many others have said 7 cents is a good benchmark and
> I used
> >>> the...Gene has said within 2-3 cents but getting that kind of accuracy
> for every
> >>> dyad in a 7 note scale/mode is not mathematically possible...so I
> "settled" for
> >>> 7 cents. If you think 7 cents is too much error...what you can
> factually say it
> >>> "what the experiment uses to define as pure gives too much slack, in my
> opinion"
> >>> but you can't say it was not based on measurable, factual
> parameters...because
> >>> it was!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Igs said,
> >>> "Further still, even the most meaningful conclusion is NEVER 100%,
> NEVER
> >>> "universally true"--the best it can be is a "high probability". This is
> as true
> >>> of physics as it is for sociology."
> >>>
> >>> So I am specifically measuring accuracy of all dyads to a desired list
> of
> >>> dyads (most of which were given as suggestions by people on the tuning
> list, NOT
> >>> arbitrarily decided by myself) and gaining my "benchmark" for what
> qualifies as
> >>> "close enough to pure" from several other people. So yes, I'm aiming
> straight
> >>> for a high probability the dyads I chose will work for most
> people...and now I'm
> >>> testing the scales DIRECTLY via music on other people. Ozan, dare I ask
> you,
> >>> what more can you ask so far as testing (especially given the limited
> human
> >>> resources/test subject I have access to as a non-professor)?!
> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 5:36:08 PM

Ozan>"You assume that dyads being off from their predetermined popular JI
positions actually amount to something detrimental to beautiful music making."

Well firstly...if you consider intervals like 11/9, 22/15, 18/11,10/7, and
a whole slew of others in my Dimension^2 scale...to be "popular"...they sure
don't exist in 12TET. Yes, they are JI....but they certainly are not
run-of-the-mill in any Western music theory.

Secondly I never said other intervals are "detrimental"...only that some are
likely, on the average, harder to use productively (far as Western public
perception) by most composers than others.
The only intervals I would say make it far less likely music made with them
would be well taken on the average (at least for Western ears) include a very
few such as 20/11, 16/11, 23/17, 26/21, and 49/33...all of which are in areas
often historically considered "wolf" intervals and ones that psychoacoustic
research IE Harmonic Entropy and Critical Band Roughness (ala Sethares) say are
in "bad" zones. So I'm not exactly in bad company when I have my doubts about
those intervals.

Thirdly, you seem to suspect I have some evil agenda against your preferred
art of Maqam music and/or any other microtonal world music. Nothing could be
further from the truth...in fact, remember when I was handing you kudos for your
choice of tuning and use of tuning in "Saba Storm"?! Not to mention I'm quite a
fan of Indian classical music. Did I mention a ton of the interval classes I
use are within a few cents of Maqam intervals and well over 20 cents away from
the nearest 12TET intervals?!

>"For a third thing, you do not give any concrete reasons why error tolerance can
>be maximum 7 cents and not lower or higher for any set of ratios. The criteria
>for this choice is highly subjective. "
And the easy way to avoid that is? Of course it's subjective. Then again,
12TET listeners readily tolerate over 13 cents error...next to that, at least
numerically, 7 seems pretty safe.

>"Where is the acoustical experimentation coupled with MR assisted test surveys
>to support it?"
You know what...give me free access to an MR/brain-scanner and subjects, or
find someone willing to do the scan for me, and I'll be happy to! :-D
Unfortunately, I'm not a millionaire and only have realistic resources.

>"For a fourth thing, you overestimate the importance of scale in music, "
If it's not at all a problem with the scale, why hasn't microtonallity caught
on?! If you suspect its something else, please say so and why...but every
musician I've spoke to about microtonal music says it's either "too dissonant"
or "too complicated"...and I strongly suspect they are talking about the scales
just as much as, if not more than, the skills of the composers.

>"try to get your investigative materials published in a peer-reviewed journal,
>and let's see where that gets you."
Look, I'm not a PHD and never pretended I was...that does not make the hours
of time I spend researching and perfecting tuning and music any less
demonstrative of my work ethic. You have earned your degree and the sort of
respect that goes with it to get in journals and that's fantastic...but the kind
of "professor" who runs around telling his students "haha...you can't get
published and I can!" only shows he lacks maturity as a professor...no matter
how much he knows.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 5:54:17 PM

Ozan>"This might help:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience"

Ok, I'm checking through these ONE BY ONE....

Pseudoscience can not be reliably tested.

Counter-example: at a university where I work (as staff, not faculty, mind
you) we regularly test what students think of certain professors via student
reviews. We have $100,000+ systems that analyze this data, and retention and
several other factors...and come up with the facts of what to do to improve
enrollment.

What I am asking for ultimately as a "test"...is for people to review
compositions with my tuning vs. those in 12TET. This follows from numerical
comparisons I have done on dyads, the recent message where I compared the number
of triads available in my scale vs. Lucy-tuned meantone (a system almost exactly
like 12TET in compositional use), the chord sound test I posted here for review,
and the compositions I made using my scale that I posted on here. Again I ask,
why does that NOT qualify as reliable testing?

I don't see, specifically, how what I'm doing is so different than what the
company I work for does far as using statistical analysis to uncover high
probability opportunities... Or do you think what they are doing is also
pseudoscience?!

Pseudoscience (has) an over-reliance on confirmationrather than rigorous
attempts at refutation

I keep on pitting my scale against other scales...and using scales like
12TET that people have been proven to favor on purpose to give it stiff
competition. I also compared the number of chords available to rate my
scales...something Sethares did NOT do even in his published Critical Band
Dissonance paper (for the record, my scale DID FAIL against 12TET in 7-or-less
limit chords...but beat it clearly in all higher limits).

Assertion of scientific claims that are vague rather than precise, and that lack
specific measurements.

I specifically measured the dyadic error, the number of chords
possible....what's left?

Lack of boundary conditions: Most well-supported scientific theories possess
well-articulated limitations under which the predicted phenomena do and do not
apply.[31]

Ok I admit, this one is fair game IE I haven't thought about this....what do you
think some good boundary conditions would be?

Lack of openness to testing by other expertsI consistently ask people on here
for input...and have never said "I'm not counting your opinion".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 6:03:45 PM

Chris>"I strongly suggest reading John O'Sllivan's book
> "The Mathematics of Music: Music Theory, 12 Tone Equal Temperament and
> its Origins Explained and Two New Alternative Tuning Systems"

Funny, because I have spoken to John on countless occasions...and even
worked with him specifically on intervals and criteria for criticizing his
formulas. Ask him if you need confirmation. It kind of figures John uses a
dyadic error/purity-checking system much like the one I test my scales against
and Ozan does not accept it as science (thereby "refuting" both John's work and
my own toward it).

All in all though my overall impression to Ozan to an extent is....who
cares?! John's system, despite also falling into Ozan's "psuedoscience" bin
proved quite successful in composition. Even back when several people were busy
name-calling John a "pseudoscientists" I was writing personal e-mails to John in
support of his scale (with no reputation or financial ties whatsoever to him).

Even if for some bizarre reason it didn't meet some anal-retentive
scientific standard some Doctorate managed to nit-pick out...does that mean we
help the music community by running around saying the guys who worked on the
scales are unscientific fools whose efforts are (as Carl put it) useless? I
seriously doubt it...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/9/2011 6:10:32 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

> I remember on the tuning list people had unpleasant things to say about
> John's development of his interval evaluation calculator - I don't think
> people at the time understood that he was fitting his observations to
> several candidate formulae which are then used to extrapolate his
> observations.

It struck me as bizarre and ad hoc as a formula, and unnecessary if you've decided in advance what you want the result to be. I didn't know he was attempting extrapolation.

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

1/9/2011 6:12:31 PM

On a personal note.

Often I wish you'd just stop arguing and spend your energy making new tunings and new music.

In my opinion Good results will speak a lot clearer than these emails.

Just my opinion

Now I go to play my piano. Goodnight.

Chris
*

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael <djtrancendance@...>
Sender: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 18:03:45
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: Finally...the "good" Dimension^2 scale SCALA file

Chris>"I strongly suggest reading John O'Sllivan's book
> "The Mathematics of Music: Music Theory, 12 Tone Equal Temperament and
> its Origins Explained and Two New Alternative Tuning Systems"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 6:13:10 PM

>"I remember on the tuning list people had unpleasant things to say about John's
>development of his interval evaluation calculator"

Exactly...in fact, so did I...only I tried very hard to bring in an
alternative to match every criticism and soon became actively asked by John to
help out. Funny thing...both of us rate by dyadic error...and his limit for
dyadic accuracy is about 6.776 cents while mine is <= 7 (not exactly worlds away
from each other...in fact, in many ways on this "ultimate scale alternative"
topic, he and I think alike).

>"I don't think people at the time understood that he was fitting his
>observations to several candidate formulae which are then used to extrapolate
>his observations."
Interesting...what are said candidate formulae? I do recall he did a whole
lot of aural testing, and then kept adding parts to the formula to account for
"kinks in the curve"...

The other thing is...I admittedly don't have "competing formula"...but rather
a list of dyads I've found preferable in several blind listening tests
(admittedly though, just on myself as I don't have access to other willing
subjects). What I do, however, is make multiple scales with such dyads and try
to get listening response between the scales...the "Quantra" vs. "Petra" scales
was an example of that. My question (especially to you, Chris)...is what would
be a good way to rephrase all this and/or change the way I'm testing to make
this all more coherent?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗kraiggrady@...

1/9/2011 7:29:46 PM

one presents scales one likes without in resorting that it is based on science.
why do we have to prove any validity about a scale outside that one likes it and finds it useful.
my scales do nothing for you, your does nothing for me. there is not validity t o either stance

'''''''North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
'''''''South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael [mailto:djtrancendance@...]
Sent: Sunday, January 9, 2011 05:12 PM
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MMM] IF/WHY dyads have little to do with music and if not, what does?

Kraig>"how are you going to test and how many? dyads is a bad way cause it has
little to do with music"

Well in that case (Kraig), what's your (and others') suggested alternative(s)?

The only other blaring (and perhaps better?) alternative I can think of seems
to be to think in terms of triadic accuracy and list the triads possible in each
tuning.

My Dimension Tuning has about 27 triads if you throw in a 7-odd-limit
restriction, about 100 with an 11-(odd)-limit restriction, and about 140 with a
15-odd-limit restriction.

I tried LucyTuning and it has about 60 triads with a 7-odd-limit
restriction, about 100 with an 11-odd-limit restriction, and about 128 with a
15-odd-limit restriction.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 7:38:10 PM

Chris>"Often I wish you'd just stop arguing and spend your energy making new
tunings and new music."

Far as new tunings...just this month I came up with Pentra, Quadra, and
Dimension^2...plus a 6-tone scale that happens to be a subset of Blackjack.
That's 4 scale systems in all...and all were tested for dyadic accuracy plus
Dimension^2 was tested in Scala for how many 3+ note chords it contains.

Could I make tunings faster? Of course, but at that rate I would likely be
making tunings faster than I can test them in listening tests with the
public... Even with Pentra and Quadra, to be honest, I got lots of people
whining about the composition technique in my sound examples and little precious
input on what people actually thought of the sound of the scales. It's like
turning in a paper for a class and then neither getting a grade nor comments,
and then being bugged about why you don't want to take another class and how bad
your work ethic is.

>"In my opinion Good results will speak a lot clearer than these emails. "
Well, I got Ozan, John, and a good few others saying my music (those 4 songs
links) was good (a small victory)...and then many of them turned around and
started tirades about how the very scale I used in a majority of those did not
require any hard work on my part and is an egotistical conspiracy of sort to say
I'm right and therefore everyone else is wrong (which it NEVER was and NEVER
will be!).

What I've learned from this seems to be it doesn't matter what I do so far as
music...most people on here who participate regularly are going to keep
"launching pies at me" until one of my scale systems achieves widespread use
and/or publication. The fact Carl said "your efforts are ignored and USELESS"
just after I released links to my 4 songs is just further proof....either I'm
going to have to perform perfectly or not get any respect here at
all...apparently 4 tunings per month and 4 songs per month here earns the
reputation of "lazy psuedoscientist"!

Any ideas how to put sound examples and tunings out here without being
constantly harassed about it? If I could simply release scales here in peace
and get simple honest input and criticism rather than personality
judgments...believe me...I would love to release scale systems more quickly.

--------------------------
Far as new music...I am always composing bits and pieces, only my pace is
rather lax compared to yours (I come up with a new song about once a month...and
find if I rush it by composing uninspired it sounds terrible IE my 14TET song
which was apparently so bad I got personal insults on my work ethic as a
composer over it!).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/9/2011 7:46:25 PM

Chris wrote:

>As an example of doing through research into the perception of music
>I strongly suggest reading John O'Sllivan's book
>"The Mathematics of Music: Music Theory, 12 Tone Equal Temperament and
>its Origins Explained and Two New Alternative Tuning Systems"
>It is available at Amazon for a modest fee of $14.50.

Personally I thought $14.50 was quite high given the amount
of material in the book, and the number of resources that are
available for free.

Not everyone is cut out to be a scientist, and that's OK.
To my ears Michael's music isn't especially great, but it's of
considerably higher quality than his science. I suggest he
focus on the former.

A good popular read on the philosophy of science is David
Deutsch. Or just watch this video:
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_a_new_way_to_explain_explanation.html
(Some will cringe at his opinion of ancient cave art. Others
will cringe at his apparent belief that he's discovered
something new in epistemology... he merely explains it well
to a popular audience.)

Or try this page
http://yudkowsky.net/rational/bayes

-Carl

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 7:57:55 PM

Kraig >"one presents scales one likes without in resorting that it is based on
science."

>"why do we have to prove any validity about a scale outside that one likes it
>and finds it useful."
One shouldn't. However if I so much as upload a file here, a few people will
ALWAYS START an raging ranting argument about "why Michael is a
psuedo-scientist" and "why Michael thinks his scales are great and all others
are garbage" just for simply releasing a scale and saying I was trying to make
it easy to compose with. The greater overwhelming hypocritical fact is those
same people are most often ones who have never actually ever composed with my
scales...

Far as my experience posting scales...I've posted oh so many scales without
explanation only to see them be ignored. I said very little on my Pentra and
Quanta and then watched as no one asked questions about them or composed with
them.

Bottom line is, I just want people, for better or worse, to try my scales
and let me know what they think about the scales (and not any bizarre personal
judgments). If I give examples of properties of scales or sound examples,
I'm doing it simply to convince people it's worth it to try my scales....and
nothing else.

Call me greedy, altruistic, or both....but, when I release scales I hope
people either find use for them or at least let me know what they didn't like
about them so I can make my next scale more useful to them. I don't just want
to sit here throwing things out at random watching the community stay relatively
stagnant...I want a greater sense I am helping the community and helping get
more people interested in microtonality, and not merely "pissing in the wind".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/9/2011 8:15:25 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...>
> What I've learned from this seems to be it doesn't matter what I do so far as
> music...most people on here who participate regularly are going to keep
> "launching pies at me" until one of my scale systems achieves widespread use
> and/or publication.

I don't care about that. I launch pies at you because you don't explain what you did. You should say "I wanted to get intervals on list X, within tolerance Y, and this scale has number N of intervals in X within an error limit of Y".

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 8:17:27 PM

the test given at your school is a fraud and unreliable and such methods have made education worse , not better.
One cannot quantify opinions.
the next day they are all different.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 10/01/11 12:54 PM, Michael wrote:
>
> Ozan>"This might help:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience"
>
> Ok, I'm checking through these ONE BY ONE....
>
> Pseudoscience can not be reliably tested.
>
> Counter-example: at a university where I work (as staff, not > faculty, mind
> you) we regularly test what students think of certain > professors via student
> reviews. We have $100,000+ systems that analyze this data, and > retention and
> several other factors...and come up with the facts of what to > do to improve
> enrollment.
>
> What I am asking for ultimately as a "test"...is for people to > review
> compositions with my tuning vs. those in 12TET. This follows > from numerical
> comparisons I have done on dyads, the recent message where I > compared the number
> of triads available in my scale vs. Lucy-tuned meantone (a > system almost exactly
> like 12TET in compositional use), the chord sound test I > posted here for review,
> and the compositions I made using my scale that I posted on > here. Again I ask,
> why does that NOT qualify as reliable testing?
>
> I don't see, specifically, how what I'm doing is so different > than what the
> company I work for does far as using statistical analysis to > uncover high
> probability opportunities... Or do you think what they are > doing is also
> pseudoscience?!
>
> Pseudoscience (has) an over-reliance on confirmationrather > than rigorous
> attempts at refutation
>
> I keep on pitting my scale against other scales...and using > scales like
> 12TET that people have been proven to favor on purpose to give > it stiff
> competition. I also compared the number of chords available to > rate my
> scales...something Sethares did NOT do even in his published > Critical Band
> Dissonance paper (for the record, my scale DID FAIL against > 12TET in 7-or-less
> limit chords...but beat it clearly in all higher limits).
>
> Assertion of scientific claims that are vague rather than > precise, and that lack
> specific measurements.
>
> I specifically measured the dyadic error, the number of chords
> possible....what's left?
>
> Lack of boundary conditions: Most well-supported scientific > theories possess
> well-articulated limitations under which the predicted > phenomena do and do not
> apply.[31]
>
> Ok I admit, this one is fair game IE I haven't thought about > this....what do you
> think some good boundary conditions would be?
>
> Lack of openness to testing by other expertsI consistently ask > people on here
> for input...and have never said "I'm not counting your opinion".
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

1/9/2011 8:21:00 PM

cave art is the best art humans have done.
everyone has been doing nothing but copying them.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 10/01/11 2:46 PM, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> Chris wrote:
>
> >As an example of doing through research into the perception > of music
> >I strongly suggest reading John O'Sllivan's book
> >"The Mathematics of Music: Music Theory, 12 Tone Equal > Temperament and
> >its Origins Explained and Two New Alternative Tuning Systems"
> >It is available at Amazon for a modest fee of $14.50.
>
> Personally I thought $14.50 was quite high given the amount
> of material in the book, and the number of resources that are
> available for free.
>
> Not everyone is cut out to be a scientist, and that's OK.
> To my ears Michael's music isn't especially great, but it's of
> considerably higher quality than his science. I suggest he
> focus on the former.
>
> A good popular read on the philosophy of science is David
> Deutsch. Or just watch this video:
> http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_a_new_way_to_explain_explanation.html
> (Some will cringe at his opinion of ancient cave art. Others
> will cringe at his apparent belief that he's discovered
> something new in epistemology... he merely explains it well
> to a popular audience.)
>
> Or try this page
> http://yudkowsky.net/rational/bayes
>
> -Carl
>
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 8:35:40 PM

>"Not everyone is cut out to be a scientist, and that's OK."
WHY do you say I'm trying to be "a scientist" just because I use numbers to
describe my scales?! My problem with your term "psuedo-scientist" is NOT that
it says I'm not a scientist...but rather that it says I'm pretending to be
something I'm not. It seems on this list I get two 'respectable' choices:
either be a scientist or don't use numbers at all!

Look...I'm a computer programmer for a living. That is NOT a formal form of
science, it does NOT involve scholarly papers, but it sure as heck does involve
intelligent description, organizing, sorting, and pattern finding with numbers!
If I were not at least decent at that on the job or ran around falsfying
data...trust me, I would be fired very quickly.
I know plenty about running batch comparisons, extracting patterns in data,
and data mining...it's NOT posing for me at all, it's my living.

Also to note...I'm NOT listing myself as a Doctorate, a publication writer,
or anything of the sort...and certainly do not deserve treatment as if I was
posing for one...I'll leave that business to people like Ozan. I'm just a
person trying to make scales useful for the community who happens to use
numbers.
I ALSO NO LONGER (as of this past half-year) say anything about tying my
scales to Harmonic Entropy or Critical Band Dissonance as that would seem to tie
it too close to science by association of said-above theories being science.
-------------------------
So, for the love of God...if ALL I do in the future related to my own scales
is
A) Post my own scales
B) State their dyadic error, chords possible, and nearest scale systems (all
ultimately findable and verifiable via fairly basic functions in SCALA)
C) Put a simple disclaimer about there being a goal/emotional-aim of low tension
to the feel of the scale (heck, I won't even use the word 'dissonance' or even
'resolve' to describe it to avoid any associations with scientific 'dissonance
theories'. Unless you have an idea for a word that is even less scientific than
"tension"...
D) Compose and post pieces here with my own scales
E) Ask others to try using my scales

....And nothing more could you at least make a pledge to stop harassing
me? I'll gladly be a "non-scientist" if you at least let me use numbers in
peace in the above-stated ways.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 8:48:06 PM

Gene>"I don't care about that. I launch pies at you because you don't explain
what you did."

You should say "I wanted to get intervals on list X, within tolerance Y, and
this scale has number N of intervals in X within an error limit of Y".

Ok, here you go...

All dyads in the 12 tone scale have < 8 cents error from the following list
within 2 octaves range:
1/1
12/11
12/7
11/10
11/9
11/8
11/7
11/6
10/9
10/7
9/8
9/5
8/7
8/5
7/6
7/4
7/5
6/5
5/4
5/3
4/3
3/2
15/11
15/8
18/11
22/15

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 8:53:29 PM

Or rather in your words "I wanted to get all dyads in the 12 tone scale have < 8
cents error from the following list

within 2 octaves range:"

Then again, I checked the values against a computer program in a loop that
checks against all dyads within two octaves...and computers tend not to forget
calculations. It would be the same as if I checked the values in SCALA against
the range of possible dyads...it would be a "verification" not a "maybe".

________________________________
From: Michael <djtrancendance@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 10:48:06 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: Finally...the "good" Dimension^2 scale SCALA file

Gene>"I don't care about that. I launch pies at you because you don't explain
what you did."

You should say "I wanted to get intervals on list X, within tolerance Y, and
this scale has number N of intervals in X within an error limit of Y".

Ok, here you go...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/9/2011 9:19:16 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> All dyads in the 12 tone scale have < 8 cents error from the following list
> within 2 octaves range:

OK, I have another pie to throw. It makes no sense to use a two octave range and to include some intervals but not their inversions. I suggest you forgo all of that. Then you get the 11-limit, minus 9/7-14/9, but including 16/15-15/8 and 15/11-22/15. Please don't try to don't tell me there is anything remotely resembling "science" in the exclusion of valuable 9-limit intervals from a basically 11-limit harmonic palette, because I aint buyin'. Your own personal taste may incline in that direction, but you should make clear that this is what you are doing and why you are doing it. And why the hell do you hate subminor and supermajor triads and tetrads anyway? What has the 1-7/6-3/2 chord ever done to you?

Rather than proceeding in this eccentric manner, why not simply try to construct 11-limit scales?

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/9/2011 9:45:46 PM

Gene>"It makes no sense to use a two octave range and to include some intervals
but not their inversions."

Inversion meaning 2 over x interval IE 2 over 3/2 = 4/3? If so, indeed, I
missed a couple to a few of said inversion, but most of the inversions should be
on that list (though not in order right behind what they invert).

>"Then you get the 11-limit, minus 9/7-14/9, but including 16/15-15/8 and
>15/11-22/15. "
You're right, I missed the 16/15...I didn't include semi-tones in my list
and the 14/9 was missing and should be there. But I DID get the 15/11 AND 22/15
in my list correctly.

>"Please don't try to don't tell me there is anything remotely resembling
>"science" in the exclusion of valuable 9-limit intervals from a basically
>11-limit harmonic palette, because I aint buyin'."
Firstly...you're right...the 14/9 and 16/9 should be on the list and is in
the scale...though (in tying to the other question you had)...they appear as
inversions and, as such, I honestly forgot to include them in the list.
Then again, you just went ahead and guessed my intentions for not including it
rather than taking the patience to ask me first...not cool. Truth is I have
nothing against 14/9 or 16/9 and use both!

>"And why the hell do you hate subminor and supermajor triads and tetrads anyway?
>What has the 1-7/6-3/2 chord ever done to you?"
How on earth is this coming up? My scale uses 7/6 and 3/2...and I never said
in any part of this thread's history that I hate supermajor triads...it's as if
you're bringing falsities up just for an excuse to start a fight...

>"Rather than proceeding in this eccentric manner, why not simply try to
>construct 11-limit scales?"
Look at the list of intervals. My scale is an 11-limit scale...minus that
22/15 interval and the semitones IE, 16/15, 17/16, etc. If you looked at
it...you'd see it has one set of seven notes within a few cents of the diatonic
scale in 31TET and then a bunch of 11-limit stuff on the side of that (and a
fair bit of 9-limit stuff...if you count the inversions).

It almost begs the side question...what is your favorite 12-tone 11-limit
scale? It would make an interesting comparison....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/9/2011 9:48:23 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> A good popular read on the philosophy of science is David
> Deutsch. Or just watch this video:

I've always been partial to Thomas Kuhn's views. See, for example, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions". It really takes apart the (simplistic and rather erroneous) notion that science is any kind of monolithic institution that has been making steady linear progress in tackling an ever-diminishing set of questions about the nature of reality. It's a sad fact that "history of science" courses are few and far between, such that most people who study science have very little idea how "modern science" came into existence.

-Igs

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/9/2011 10:13:36 PM

For the record, Deutsch doesn't say that and if you haven't,
I recommend watching the video
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_a_new_way_to_explain_explanation.html
and working through the (now famous) Yudkowsky page
http://yudkowsky.net/rational/bayes

Graham named the regular mapping paradigm in reference to Kuhn.
I find the institution and profession of science less
interesting than the scientific method itself. But since you
mention it, science the institution doesn't seem unique in this
regard, but rather follows a regime of "punctuated equilibria"
just like natural ecosystems and everything else.

Science the institution is wide open for criticism. For instance,
http://twitter.com/clumma/status/22436405892358144
One day I'll get around to writing a piece on how government
grants have distorted research. I am among those calling for
more prizes and fewer grants, as well as for Open Science
http://creativecommons.org/science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Notebook_Science

-Carl

At 09:48 PM 1/9/2011, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
>> A good popular read on the philosophy of science is David
>> Deutsch. Or just watch this video:
>
>I've always been partial to Thomas Kuhn's views. See, for example,
>"The Structure of Scientific Revolutions". It really takes apart the
>(simplistic and rather erroneous) notion that science is any kind of
>monolithic institution that has been making steady linear progress in
>tackling an ever-diminishing set of questions about the nature of
>reality. It's a sad fact that "history of science" courses are few
>and far between, such that most people who study science have very
>little idea how "modern science" came into existence.
>
>-Igs
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/10/2011 1:27:54 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> Then again, you just went ahead and guessed my intentions for not including it
> rather than taking the patience to ask me first...not cool.

I assume people mean what they say and base my comments on what they say. Twice now in a short span of time you've gotten mad because of that, but the cure is obvious--take more care to say what you mean.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/10/2011 2:22:36 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> It almost begs the side question...what is your favorite 12-tone 11-limit
> scale? It would make an interesting comparison....

I haven't picked a favorite, but here's Thrush[12], the 12-note hobbit for thrush (126/125&176/175) temperament. As is often the case with hobbits, it is strictly proper, and as is commonly the case with hobbits, has low mean variety. It also has a good many 11-limit intervals in much better tune than 7 cents, none of which is a 9/7.

! thrush12.scl
Thrush[12] (126/125, 176/175) hobbit in the POTE tuning
12
!
80.43583
230.31897
310.75480
391.19062
498.05458
578.49041
701.94542
808.80938
889.24520
969.68103
1119.56417
1200.00000
!
!! prethrush12.scl
! Thrush[12] 5-limit transversal
! 12
!!
! 25/24
! 144/125
! 6/5
! 5/4
! 4/3
! 25/18
! 3/2
! 8/5
! 5/3
! 125/72
! 48/25
! 2/1

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/10/2011 3:34:39 AM

No, but certainly you could argue less.

I'm thinking MMM is a list to be tuned off for a while.

Chris

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Chris>"Often I wish you'd just stop arguing and spend your energy making new
> tunings and new music."
>
>
> Could I make tunings faster?

🔗john777music <jfos777@...>

1/10/2011 9:24:20 AM

Hi Michael,

for melodic intervals using sine wave tones only (no overtones) the four candidate formulae (wild guesses based on the idea that the smaller the numbers, the greater the consonance) were:

1/xy

1/(x+y)

1/x + 1/y

1/x

Note x>=y.

Next I compiled 3 lists of intervals and arranged them in descending order of strength according to each formula, one list for each formula (I didn't make a list for 1/xy as I considered it unlikely). Some lists said interval 'a' should be stronger than interval 'b' and other lists said the opposite. After long listening tests only 1/x + 1/y seemed consistent every time. The other two formulae had a few clear inconsistencies. I also found one clear inonsistency in the 1/xy formula and so ruled it out.

So I chose 1/x + 1/y.

It's possible that the *correct* formula is *not* one of the four listed above. However I have tested 1/x + 1/y thoroughly and almost exhaustively and it seems consistent every time.

Next I used 1/x + 1/y in my formula for harmony intervals (again using sine wave tones only). The formula I eventually worked out is:

(2 + 1/x + 1/y - y/x)/2 ...note y/x<=0.9375

The 2 on the left is the strength value of the two notes if each has a strength value of 1.
The 1/x + 1/y has (it seems) to do with periodicity.
The y/x has to do with beating (dissonance).
The /2 on the right appears to be an average.

Using this formula for harmony intervals I propose three categories of consonance of a sine wave harmony interval...

If the result is less than 0.75 then the (sine wave) interval is bad.
If the result is between 0.75 and 0.9999 then the (sine wave) interval is Minor.
If the result is 1.0 or higher then the (sine wave) interval is Major.

Next I used this basic formula in a computer program to work out the consonance values of intervals with complex tones and close to 'normal' timbres. Normal meaning that the frequencies of the partials are i, 2i, 3i, 4i etc. and the amplitudes/loudness of the partials are j, j/2, j/3, j/4 etc.

If anyone is interested in my interval calculator program you can download it free from www.johnsmusic7.com . There are versions for both Mac OSX and PCs.

If anyone wants to buy my book go to the same website where there are links to the Amazon site nearest to you.

There are also links to four pieces Chris composed using my Blue tunings.

John.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"I remember on the tuning list people had unpleasant things to say about John's
> >development of his interval evaluation calculator"
>
> Exactly...in fact, so did I...only I tried very hard to bring in an
> alternative to match every criticism and soon became actively asked by John to
> help out. Funny thing...both of us rate by dyadic error...and his limit for
> dyadic accuracy is about 6.776 cents while mine is <= 7 (not exactly worlds away
> from each other...in fact, in many ways on this "ultimate scale alternative"
> topic, he and I think alike).
>
> >"I don't think people at the time understood that he was fitting his
> >observations to several candidate formulae which are then used to extrapolate
> >his observations."
> Interesting...what are said candidate formulae? I do recall he did a whole
> lot of aural testing, and then kept adding parts to the formula to account for
> "kinks in the curve"...
>
> The other thing is...I admittedly don't have "competing formula"...but rather
> a list of dyads I've found preferable in several blind listening tests
> (admittedly though, just on myself as I don't have access to other willing
> subjects). What I do, however, is make multiple scales with such dyads and try
> to get listening response between the scales...the "Quantra" vs. "Petra" scales
> was an example of that. My question (especially to you, Chris)...is what would
> be a good way to rephrase all this and/or change the way I'm testing to make
> this all more coherent?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/10/2011 9:37:33 AM

Chris>"Often I wish you'd just stop arguing and spend your energy making new
> tunings and new music."
Me> Could I make tunings faster?
Chris(in response)>"No, but certainly you could argue less."

Right...so (if I have it right) your implication about my supposed lack of
energy toward "making tunings faster" was a false argument and .your real point
appears to be that I should spend far less energy defending my tunings. I'd
appreciate if next time you simply get to the point and not beat around the
bush.

Meanwhile...here's a new tuning: :-)
1.0715 (119.558 cents) ......15/14 nearest low-limit just ratio
1.1366 (221.6695 cents) ....8/7
1.3333 (498 cents) .............4/3
1.428 (616.795 cents).........10/7
1.507(710 cents)................3/2
1.71428 (933.123 cents).....12/7
2 (1200 cents)....................2/1

The scale is designed around my best >>ATTEMPT<< to optimize accuracy of 7
and occasionally 9-limit dyads within a 7-tone scale. The compositional
implication of this, more or less, is an >>ATTEMPT<< to get the most relaxed
feeling scale possible far as scales where dyads adhere mostly within 7-limit.

Comments and/or suggestions on this scale are much appreciated and, more than
likely, a composition made by myself with this scale will soon follow....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/10/2011 10:32:06 AM

Gene(original comment)>"Please don't try to don't tell me there is anything
remotely resembling

>"science" in the exclusion of valuable 9-limit intervals from a basically
>11-limit harmonic palette, because I aint buyin'."

Me> Then again, you just went ahead and guessed my intentions for not
including it

> rather than taking the patience to ask me first...not cool.

Gene>"I assume people mean what they say and base my comments on what they say."
I didn't say anything on that topic other than give a list of dyads. Are you
saying that because I missed 2 or so 9-limit dyads (even though I also included
a 9-limit dyad!) on my good dyad list...that small error is enough of a mistake
to give you a reason to go on a tirade of suspicion about my "hate of 9-limit
dyads"?! Come on...

>"Twice now in a short span of time you've gotten mad because of that, but the
>cure is obvious--take more care to say what you mean.:"
As if I didn't?!

Look at just how much a deal you made out of what was a tiny (though
admit-ably done) mistake I made. No apologies...I'm not going to shoot myself
in the foot over such a tiny error...that would be like ruining a great weekend
because I only got a 90% on a test in college and the teacher said "you
obviously need to try harder to give a more complete essay/answer next time.."
. Ridiculous and not worth my time when I got something mostly correct. I think
I did a quite good, though not perfect job of explaining, and took your
suggestions by giving the missing x/9 ratios when asked...I don't deserve extra
baggage for my effort.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/10/2011 10:34:41 AM

Chris>"Often I wish you'd just stop arguing and spend your energy making new

> tunings and new music."
Me> Could I make tunings faster?
Chris(in response)>"No, but certainly you could argue less."

Right...so (if I have it right) your implication about my supposed lack of
energy toward "making tunings faster" was a false argument...and .your real
point appears to be that I should spend far less energy defending my tunings.
If that's the case...I'd appreciate if next time you simply get to the point and
not beat around the bush.

Comments and/or suggestions on this scale are much appreciated and, more than
likely, a composition made by myself with this scale will soon follow....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/10/2011 12:02:12 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> Meanwhile...here's a new tuning: :-)
> 1.0715 (119.558 cents) ......15/14 nearest low-limit just ratio
> 1.1366 (221.6695 cents) ....8/7
> 1.3333 (498 cents) .............4/3
> 1.428 (616.795 cents).........10/7
> 1.507(710 cents)................3/2
> 1.71428 (933.123 cents).....12/7
> 2 (1200 cents)....................2/1

One point to make right off the bat is that when presenting a scale, you should give a Scala file for it, such as this:

! michael7.scl
Michael's 7-note, more or less 7-limit scale
7
!
119.558
221.6695
498.000
616.795
710.000
933.123
1200.000

> Comments and/or suggestions on this scale are much appreciated and, more than
> likely, a composition made by myself with this scale will soon follow....

I note that you seem to be using a tolerance closer to 10 cents than seven cents. I also note that you don't seem to have melodic desiderata such as propriety or low mean variety in mind, but then, you don't have to. Optimizing dyads is a reasonable goal. I'd be interested in your reaction to the scale below in comparison to yours; it is a "lesfip scale", something very briefly described here:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Lesfip+scales

This was derived from your scale by iterating least squares optimization with a tolerance of ten cents and a target of the 7-limit
tonality diamond.

! mif7.scl
Lesfip scale derived from michael7
7
!
117.47111
231.34936
500.01670
616.87439
701.07869
932.47186
1200.00000

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/10/2011 12:19:43 PM

Gene>"I note that you seem to be using a tolerance closer to 10 cents than seven
cents."
True...I had a pretty tricky time just staying under 13 cents while keeping
most of the dyads near 7-limit. It seems there are a lot more accurate options
soon as you allow 11-limit...though I had to forgo some accuracy for the sake of
sticking mostly to 7-limit.

>"
! michael7.scl
Michael's 7-note, more or less 7-limit scale
7
!
119.558
221.6695
498.000
616.795
710.000
933.123
1200.000"

Good point...next time...I'll post the Scala file, and not just the values...in
my first "release" of each scale I try.

>"This was derived from your scale by iterating least squares optimization with
>a tolerance of ten cents and a target of the 7-limit
tonality diamond.

! mif7.scl
Lesfip scale derived from michael7
7
!
117.47111
231.34936
500.01670
616.87439
701.07869
932.47186
1200.00000"

Is that actually a function in Scala (and if so...I'd really appreciate a few
quick instructions on how to access it)....or how did you do a least-squares
optimization so quickly?

Your "tweaked/Lesfip" version looks very strong at first glance. I see the
approximately 721 and 231 cents values are somewhat different IE 10 cents or so
different...and the rest are very minor (IE 1-2 cent) tweaks.
Anyhow, I'm very interested to see what the dyadic accuracy is when I run it
through my program...I wouldn't be surprised if it edged out my attempt by a
bit. I'm also going to try composing and switching the result between both
scales and see what happens...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/10/2011 12:55:03 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> Is that actually a function in Scala (and if so...I'd really appreciate a few
> quick instructions on how to access it)....or how did you do a least-squares
> optimization so quickly?

I'm afraid I did it in Maple, but I think it would be a valuable addition to Scala if Manuel wanted to take the trouble to code it.

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/10/2011 1:53:51 PM

Gene wrote:

>I'm afraid I did it in Maple, but I think it would be a valuable
>addition to Scala if Manuel wanted to take the trouble to code it.

Scala does have a whole 'lotta least squares goin' on. For
instance

fit
bistep
multipy /match
project /match

and so on. I haven't followed this thread so I don't know if any
of these will do what you did, but... -Carl

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/10/2011 2:35:22 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Scala does have a whole 'lotta least squares goin' on. For
> instance
>
> fit
> bistep
> multipy /match
> project /match
>
> and so on. I haven't followed this thread so I don't know if any
> of these will do what you did, but... -Carl

'Fraid not. What I did is not only different, it's more elaborate. Even so I don't think it would be too difficult for Manuel to code if he thinks it is worthwhile.

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

1/11/2011 9:58:40 PM

On 9 Jan 2011, at 2:05 AM, Michael wrote:

> Chris and Daniel,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Martin
>
> Wow...had not heard of him (George Martin) at all...just shows how
> under-rated some composers/producers are.
>
> "Most of The Beatles' orchestral arrangements and instrumentation > (as well as
> frequent keyboard parts on the early records) were written or > performed by
> Martin in collaboration with the band.[35] "..."For "I Am the > Walrus", he
> provided a quirky and original arrangement for brass, violins, > cellos, and the
> Mike Sammes Singers vocal ensemble.[38][41][42] On "In My Life", he > played a
> sped-up Baroque piano solo.[43] He worked with McCartney to > implement the
> orchestral 'climax' in "A Day in the Life" and he and McCartney shared
> conducting duties the day it was recorded. Martin arranged the > score for The
> Beatles' film Yellow Submarine[51] and the James Bond film Live and > Let Die, for
> which Paul McCartney wrote and sang the title song.[52]" -Wiki
>
> Indeed, he seems behind much of the beautiful "big band" > backings used...
> He also, guess what (of course?), hired the Beatles after many > record companies
> had TURNED THEM DOWN! :-0
>
>> "I have no doubt that if Martin had given Lennon a 22 edo piano >> we'd have
>> microtonal pop music."
>
> Indeed! Maybe we just need a good list of modern cutting-edge > producers.
> William Orbit and Quincy Jones (IE of Michael Jackson fame) are two > who come
> up. Far as singers...I'd give a fair bet on Kirsty Hirkshaw
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsty_Hawkshaw from the electronica > world (has
> done virtually every genre in electronica) or Darius Rucker, who > mixes soul,
> country, and rock ..and would likely try more genres (plus, like > the Beatles, he
> is/was highly underrated). Any other ideas?
> Call me crazy...but I think if we got together as a community and > pitched the
> idea to the right producer...things could start changing > quickly... :-)
>

I don't think - those people are very careful and success hungry. They are afraid of new things, it's risky because public will not buy such records. Success can't come from something totally new and unknown. It must remind something what came before, only with some new flavor not to be exact copy of the latest successful hit. That's the reason for so much recycling in contemporary pop culture, all those cover versions, remakes or copies and small variations. Call it culture crisis... It is.

There's no place and reason for using microtonality in mainstream Western pop. But it's used in pop music of some countries where's tradition of microtonality.

Daniel Forro

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/12/2011 7:51:19 AM

Daniel>"They are afraid of new things, it's risky because public will not buy
such records. Success can't come from something totally new and unknown. "
Daneil>"There's no place and reason for using microtonality in mainstream
Western pop"

Two things I've heard seem to counter that: use of somewhat crazy timbres
and rhythms. The Chemical Brothers came out of nowhere with a completely
different style of beat (timing), mixing (including purposefully distorted drums
and timbre), and downright hyperactive use of chirpy sound effects (another use
of crazy timbres)...and yet maintained popularity over 4+ albums. The Prodigy
was little different....some of their songs IE "Voodoo People" included said
above elements with Goa baselines...and most people outside Arab countries have
no clue what Goa trance is and the techniques used in it are nothing like
standard pop-dance.
Dare I say, even with "cookie cutter hip-hop" (even though less so what
happened during the "big beat" era described above), people are constantly
coming up with and using crazy FM synthesized sounds...often with anti-harmonic
timbres. Often, even in things like Electronic Musician
Magazine...experimenting with timbre and making new, and often completely new IE
not following past musicians, instruments is glorified as an essential part of
making pop music sound "fresh".

My real question is....since it seems obvious people are open to and actually
like recklessly new timbres and beat styles...why would it be so risky to also
try "recklessly new scales"?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/12/2011 5:21:33 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Igliashon Jones/Self-Destructing Mechanical.mp3
Uploaded by : cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
Description : A techno song in Michael S.'s 3rd "Worst" Tuning

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Igliashon%20Jones/Self-Destructing%20Mechanical.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/12/2011 10:01:23 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/Igliashon%20Jones/Self-Destructing%20Mechanical.mp3

I've got a challenge for you which you will probably find really, really hard as you won't have a scale which hates you to fight against--why not try one of those 12-note 11-limit hobbits I've been posting? Can you do it?

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/13/2011 12:28:15 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> I've got a challenge for you which you will probably find really, really hard as you won't have a scale which hates you to fight against--why not try one of those 12-note 11-limit hobbits I've been posting? Can you do it?
>

Oh, certainly--I'll add one to the queue, right behind Michael's "Dimension^2" and John O'Sullivan's "Blue Temperament". Of course, I still have 14-EDO, 11-EDO, and my own "worst" scale to get through before I move on to the consonance-based scales. Any specific one you'd like me to try? The caveat, of course, is that I will be trying to find the darkest and nastiest moods that I can. The real purpose of these compositional exercises is not to demonstrate that bad scales can sound good, but that within every scale there is both bad and good. It's not possible to optimize something without ruining something else, nor is it possible to ruin something without optimizing something else.

-Igs

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/13/2011 6:27:07 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

> Oh, certainly--I'll add one to the queue, right behind Michael's "Dimension^2" and John O'Sullivan's "Blue Temperament". Of course, I still have 14-EDO, 11-EDO, and my own "worst" scale to get through before I move on to the consonance-based scales. Any specific one you'd like me to try? The caveat, of course, is that I will be trying to find the darkest and nastiest moods that I can.

I hate to propose an idea so original, but why not compose the best piece of music you can instead? Think about it.

> The real purpose of these compositional exercises is not to demonstrate that bad scales can sound good, but that within every scale there is both bad and good. It's not possible to optimize something without ruining something else, nor is it possible to ruin something without optimizing something else.

Hmmm...or as Yoda would say, "Possible it is not to good something make and not bad something else." That part is obvious; the part about how you can't make something bad I doubt. Wasn't it you who pointed out the obvious counterexample?

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/13/2011 7:57:01 AM

Igs>"The real purpose of these compositional exercises is not to demonstrate
that bad scales can sound good, but that within every scale there is both bad
and good."
Can't argue with you there. When trying for "consonance" or "dissonance" there
are always diminishing marginal returns...

Far as "good" scales (assuming 7 note), even by with dyadic optimization you
are always going to get a couple of at least semi-sour dyads or possible chords
not to mention that (as I just proved to myself in an experiment trying to
create a "7-limit only dyad scale"...just because all the dyads work and are all
fairly low-limit does not mean the scale will sound completely cohesive
melodically and means a fair deal, but not necessarily a whole lot of the chords
can be used in "resolvable" progressions!). And with 9-note...this becomes much
harder to do....of course. When I made that 7-tone "nearly all 7-limit dyad"
scale...what Igs had said about strong chords often not being able to resolve to
each other began to make sense...although I've ran into far less problems with
my Dimension^2 tuning (though certainly not "absolutely no problems"!)

Far as "bad" scales...by the same factors...you can never create a (say 7
tone) scale with absolutely no usable dyads or chords...it seems you can take it
"down" to about 3 usable chords and 5 or so individually "ok" sounding
dyads...but that's about it.

>"and my own "worst" scale to get through"
Oh wow...now I have to see this!

To be fair about the good scales though...you came in trying to get "maximum
good usage" out of them. Which would mean if you tried to purposefully only use
the worst things in the "good", that would IMVHO be cheating...although if you
honestly run into a bad thing in a good scale during the improvisation....that's
fair game.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/13/2011 8:07:56 AM

Gene>"I hate to propose an idea so original, but why not compose the best piece
of music you can instead? Think about it."

Agreed! IMVHO the purpose of this comparison most useful to real-world
musicians should be "how much good/bad comes out in a tuning/scale WHEN TRYING
TO MAKE A GOOD SONG". Otherwise it rather looks like you are trying to give the
"bad" scales a huge head-start in the "race"...and that you come in with
pre-fabricated bias toward them, making it look like you want to prove "good
scales can be bad and bad scales can be good" rather than "good and bad scales
both have good and bad in them".

>"Hmmm...or as Yoda would say, "Possible it is not to good something make and not
>bad something else."
Right...there are diminishing marginal returns as you try to make something more
good or more bad.

>"That part is obvious; the part about how you can't make something bad I doubt.
>"
Oh man....let me just say (for about the billionth time) that my goal with
my good scales is "too make something that sounds good most of the time and
approaches the infinite/impossible limit of 'all of the time' as closely as
possible". And last time I checked so, for example, is John's...he even made a
point of listing the bad dyads in his scales as have I listing the
"middle-of-the-road" 11-limit dyads in my scales.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/13/2011 9:06:33 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> I hate to propose an idea so original, but why not compose the best piece of music you can > instead? Think about it.

Someday, sure. But as I said, right now I've got sort of a project going on. Though it may reassure you to know that I have finally shelled out for a 19-EDO guitar neck and intend (once it's arrived, attached to a body, and been set-up properly) to really "go to town" with its nice 5-limit harmonies (IIRC, you once mentioned 19 as being the only low-cardinality EDO you didn't find to be rubbish).

> Hmmm...or as Yoda would say, "Possible it is not to good something make and not bad
> something else." That part is obvious; the part about how you can't make something bad I > doubt. Wasn't it you who pointed out the obvious counterexample?

What was the obvious counter-example?

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/13/2011 9:43:10 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> >"and my own "worst" scale to get through"
> Oh wow...now I have to see this!

Well, I'm not 100% settled on this yet, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be the improper octatonic/diminished scale from 24-EDO:

0
50
300
350
600
650
900
950
1200

It fails miserably in just about every regard I look for in a scale. It's wildly improper (L:s is 5:1) so melodically it's, well, *lame* for lack of a better word, and it can scarcely be said to approximate anything below the 11-limit (not counting the octave). The closest thing to a fifth is 650 cents, and it has most of its intervals near to maxima of dyadic entropy. The closest things to harmonic series chords it can approximate (without spanning an octave or more) are 11:13:15 (which is *badly* out of tune) and 8:11:13 (which is not very well in tune and sounds pretty nasty even when it is!).

It is definitely worse than anything that has been thrown at me so far, by orders of magnitude. If I can squeeze anything pleasant out of it, I think I deserve a friggin' medal. Even 11-EDO is a cakewalk compared to this scale. At least in 11-EDO you can fake a 7:8:9....

-Igs

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/13/2011 12:27:12 PM

Igs>"Well, I'm not 100% settled on this yet, but I'm pretty sure it's going to
be the improper octatonic/diminished scale from 24-EDO:"
I'd say it's partly cheating because most of the other "bad" scales have
fairly evenly spaced notes and that one has very oddly spaced notes... But it
brings up a good point...not just making a scale a pain in the....for chords
and harmony...but also melody!

>"It's wildly improper (L:s is 5:1) so melodically it's, well, *lame* for lack of
>a better word"
I'm starting to see why you are so concerned about this proper vs. improper
business...and actually redoing parts of my Dimension scale to sound and feel
"more MOS or ET "proper"" and more equally spaced in general. I'm going to call
it Dimension EC for "Easier Composition".

>"The closest thing to a fifth is 650 cents"
Right near the dreaded 16/11 fifth! Good choice for badness...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/13/2011 4:58:47 PM

Igs, don't say I never listened to you about scales being about more than
optimizing dyads and chords... :-D

New version of my 12-tone Dimension Scale...the this time optimized using a
step size around 78 cents and another around 120 cents for the most part.

Minus the two neutral/minor ratios of around 6/5 vs. 11/9...and 9/5 vs. 11/6
(designed so one can use the neutral to sub-in for major)...the spacing of the
scale is aimed to be fairly uniform... And to make it easier not just for melody
but for one to find one's way around the keyboard (approaching "strictly
proper") while keeping major and minor chords at intervals that aim to make the
compositional process of resolution easier.

Here is the scale........

Dimension EC Scale

! E:\DIMENSION EC2.scl
!
Dimension EC Scale
12
!
196.1985
315.6413
352.7508
505.7750
620.4284
701.9550
822.85912
891.9594
1011.52634
1047.1581
1131.1300
2/1

----------------------

BTW Igs...you will probably want to use this scale INSTEAD of Dimension^2 as
it is designed for more easy/convenient improvisation while keeping a similar
variety of tonal color... Again just about the only thing I found uneven that
might make you want to mark piano keys...is the 40 cent or so spacing around the
neutral vs. minor intervals IE 1047 cents vs. 1011 cents AND 315 cents vs. 352
cents.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/13/2011 6:25:04 PM

Touched up version of my new scale after doing some melodic practice with it
(figured something was amiss...). Figured out a hack to get and extra perfect
fifth without "deforming" and of the other dyadic or chordal relationships and
making the distribution of notes more equal. I killed the last 1131 cent tone
and made a new one at about 120 cents.

Again (Igs)...I'd appreciate you use this "EC" version of the Dimension Scale
instead of Dimension^2...your scale-change suggestions were quite valuable and
this version IMVHO clearly is easy to use...plus sounds a bit better!

! E:\DIMENSION EC.scl
!
Dimension EC Scale
12
!
119.558
196.1985
315.6413
352.7508
505.7750
620.4284
701.9550
822.85912
891.9594
1011.52634
1047.1581
2/1

________________________________
From: Michael <djtrancendance@...m>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 6:58:47 PM
Subject: [MMM] Dimension EC (easier composition) scale...designed with easier
chord resolution and more equal spacing in mind

Igs, don't say I never listened to you about scales being about more than
optimizing dyads and chords... :-D

New version of my 12-tone Dimension Scale...the this time optimized using a
step size around 78 cents and another around 120 cents for the most part.

but for one to find one's way around the keyboard (approaching "strictly
proper") while keeping major and minor chords at intervals that aim to make the
compositional process of resolution easier.

Here is the scale........

Dimension EC Scale

! E:\DIMENSION EC2.scl
!
Dimension EC Scale
12
!
196.1985
315.6413
352.7508
505.7750
620.4284
701.9550
822.85912
891.9594
1011.52634
1047.1581
1131.1300
2/1

----------------------

neutral vs. minor intervals IE 1047 cents vs. 1011 cents AND 315 cents vs. 352
cents.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/13/2011 6:45:19 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
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File : /Igliashon Jones/XrunkenHedz.mp3
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🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/13/2011 11:21:54 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

> Someday, sure. But as I said, right now I've got sort of a project going on. Though it may reassure you to know that I have finally shelled out for a 19-EDO guitar neck and intend (once it's arrived, attached to a body, and been set-up properly) to really "go to town" with its nice 5-limit harmonies (IIRC, you once mentioned 19 as being the only low-cardinality EDO you didn't find to be rubbish).

For 5-limit stuff, 12, 19 and 22 are non-rubbish. There are some subgroup possibilities to be found elsewhere.

> > Hmmm...or as Yoda would say, "Possible it is not to good something make and not bad
> > something else." That part is obvious; the part about how you can't make something bad I > doubt. Wasn't it you who pointed out the obvious counterexample?
>
> What was the obvious counter-example?

A few quarter-tones in a row.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/13/2011 11:32:04 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> Here is the scale........
>
> Dimension EC Scale
>
> ! E:\DIMENSION EC2.scl

What are your target intervals?

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/14/2011 3:13:50 AM

Gene>"What are your target intervals?"

The same exact ones from the last Dimension^2 scale. Conversely...almost
exactly the same ones that pop up in "Minerva" (plus additional 11-limit ones
like 11/7, 11,6, 11/8, 11/9, 15/11, and 18/11).... And yes, to be clear, the
14/9 and 16/9...despite not being that common, are in there...and (again, to be
clear) I have nothing "against" the 9-limit.

Actually it's an interesting study in my mind...because Minerva seems to
target similar intervals as my scale and with similar accuracy...

Only "Minerva" seems to concentrate more on 7-limit and "Dimension^2" and
"Dimension EC" allows more 11-limit ratios, but also with more 5-limit or less
ones to "help balance it out"...the goal being that the lower-limit ratios will
help stabilize the higher-limit ones on average .

Agains...minus the semi-tones and the fifth around 22/15 (15-limit),
virtually everything in 3,5,7,9,11-limit is game (minus the 14/11, 16/11,
20/11...intervals...which, as a personal preference, don't sound as stable to my
ear as the other 11-limit ones)...

Again, though the main focus in "Dimension^2" and "Dimension EC" is on ratios
of 7-limit or less...used to balance out those 11-limit dyads.

Side note: I've been composing with Minerva and actually liked some things
about it better (IE better note distribution and similar clarity in my ears to
"Dimension^2"...but "Minerva" has a considerably a darker mood) that largely
inspired me, along with Igs's comments, to make "Dimension EC").

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/14/2011 10:10:49 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> Actually it's an interesting study in my mind...because Minerva seems to
> target similar intervals as my scale and with similar accuracy...

Minerva is 11-prime-limit, which means it makes sense for it to get not only 11-odd-limit intervals, but things like 15/11.

> Side note: I've been composing with Minerva and actually liked some things
> about it better (IE better note distribution and similar clarity in my ears to
> "Dimension^2"...but "Minerva" has a considerably a darker mood) that largely
> inspired me, along with Igs's comments, to make "Dimension EC").

Nice to hear it's turning out useful. Using 12-note scales in the 11-limit could be a path to xenharmonicity for a lot of people, since once you get to 11, there's no doubt you aren't in Kansas anymore.

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/14/2011 10:36:24 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> > What was the obvious counter-example?
>
> A few quarter-tones in a row.
>
...can make a GREAT 18/17 (and 17/9 under inversion), or a good 17/16 if you stretch them a bit. More than a few quarter-tones and you get a good 12/11 (and 11/6 under inversion). So *something* still gets made good, even if that thing is not very good itself. Though I'm certain even that "absolute worst" scale of a few narrow quarter-tones in a row would be fantastic for meditative drone music--you could get a nice palette of shifting beat-frequencies with all the out-of-tune unisons that might be nice and hypnotic. If Logic didn't limit me to retuning each key by +/- 100 cents, I'd give that a shot.

The musical world is vast, and someone somewhere would have a use for just about any conceivable scale, no matter how ridiculous it looks, if they but knew to use it.

-Igs

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/14/2011 11:14:35 AM

Gene (about the Minerva tuning)>"Nice to hear it's turning out useful. Using
12-note scales in the 11-limit could be a path to xenharmonicity for a lot of
people, since once you get to 11, there's no doubt you aren't in Kansas
anymore."

Indeed...there is no doubt once you're dealing with 11-limit...you are no
where near 12TET land. I'd even say that of 7-limit (assuming the scale in
question has relatively few 5-limit intervals at least 25% or so 7-limit or
higher ones). The funny thing is I don't hear Minerva as "11-limit" far as
compositional feel...but rather more "7-limit with a dash of 11-limit"...and I
find the neutral triads you noted in it before surprisingly
accommodating...indeed often working well as major or minor depending on the
context and pretty good as points of resolution.

I actually think Minerva could pass to a whole lot of 12TET-only
listeners...it just sounds so balanced...the level of tension I get composing
with it is uniform...no weird areas where tension randomly seems to shoot up
that makes me feel like I'm playing "Minesweeper" when composing with them.

Know of any composers (including yourself...) who have music online made
using Minerva? It sounds almost as convincingly normal (far as feeling
"stable") as Marcus Satellite's use of Erv Wilson's 6-tone Hexanies scale...and
I'd be very interested to see what people I know (most of who know nothing about
microtonality) think of it for listening purposes.

>"Minerva is 11-prime-limit, which means it makes sense for it to get not only
>11-odd-limit intervals, but things like 15/11."
My bad, 15/11 is 15-limit... My other "favorite 15-limit interval" is
22/15...ha, no wonder this makes sense; the two are inversions of each other...
:-D It's weird how, to me 15/11 sounds no more off than 18/11...although 15/11
(I believe) is higher odd-limit.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/14/2011 11:50:51 AM

Gene>"A few quarter-tones in a row....can make a GREAT 18/17 (and 17/9 under
inversion), or a good 17/16 if you stretch them a bit."

Numerically it can (IE if you are measuring lowness of odd-limit as the
standard), but....

Funny fact...at least according to Plomp and Llevelt's critical band
dissonance research (http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/images/image3.gif), the
maximum point of roughness is essentially at the first 12TET semitone IE 100
cents...essentially the same as 18/17!
And what if you take a notoriously high-limit fraction like 255/253 that is
much smaller than 18/17? Very little roughness. according to the graph...almost
a sense of unison.

So at least if you subscribe to said-above dissonance theory...the area
around 18/17 has little inherent "stability" value. But when you form a dyad
between it and 2/1...you get around 15/8. And between it and 6/5 you get
about 9/8... So it seems obvious to me the semitone's real compositional value
is the way it combined with many simpler dyads to form relaxed-sounding
dyads...and not that it has a lot of stability or non-roughness in and of
itself.

>"More than a few quarter-tones and you get a good 12/11 (and 11/6 under
inversion)"

Looking again at (http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/images/image3.gif)...12/11 is
significantly better than 18/17 in and of itself though still pretty rough.
Though, as with 18/17...it seems to really fulfill its purpose in forming strong
dyads with other tones (as said above...when it forms a dyad with 2/1 that dyad
is a rather strong 11/6). Seems to be a pattern with smaller dyads...a lot of
the time it's not so much the "goodness" of the dyad that counts but the
"goodness" of how it combines with much larger simple tones.

I would leave it at "a chain of quarter tones can form something good...in
combination with another tone arrived to by using a simple, fairly wide ratio".
I also guess you could say I disagree that a quarter-tone sounds less good than
a semi-tone based on my own ears and Plomp and Llevelt's theory.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/14/2011 12:30:20 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> Know of any composers (including yourself...) who have music online made
> using Minerva?

Minerva has just been a theoretical possibility for a few years now; showing up in a list of the best 11-limit planar temperaments. You could be the first to compose in it if you like. In xenharmony, there are loads of chances to be the first to do something, and I've availed myself of only a few.

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/14/2011 12:53:19 PM

Gene>"Minerva has just been a theoretical possibility for a few years now;
showing up in a list of the best 11-limit planar temperaments"
It kind of begs the question who made it and what other tunings has said
person come up with?

>"You could be the first to compose in it if you like."
Already in progress... :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/14/2011 1:39:36 PM

Michael wrote:

>Gene>"Minerva has just been a theoretical possibility for a few years now;
>showing up in a list of the best 11-limit planar temperaments"
>
> It kind of begs the question who made it and what other tunings has said
>person come up with?

Nobody made it. It was discovered. -Carl

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/19/2011 4:45:29 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/SKY_DRIVE.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Skydrive: preview of a new song using the Dimension EC tuning

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/SKY_DRIVE.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/19/2011 4:52:14 PM

This one uses all 12 notes from the Dimension EC tuning. Despite its having
a nice handful of 7 and 11-limit intervals...I'm confident this one (like so
many of Marcus Satellite's dance tracks) would sound quite confident in any rave
"despite" being microtonal. And, for the record, for anyone who enjoyed my
track "Sutra"...this is a sequel of sorts to it...complete with sort of crazy
huge rotating breakbeats and organic-sounding leads hopefully as crystal clear
as those in "Sutra".

Just as with my Untwelve entry...I'm not going to rush to finish this...and
only add to it when I think I have a great (at least relative to what I usually
do) new melody or theme and not settle for putting in good ones. Hopefully I'll
be able to crank out a full version, complete with solos, within a month or two.
:-)

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/SKY_DRIVE.mp3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

1/22/2011 2:32:22 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/DimensionHCMAX128.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : My Untwelve competition entry song: "The Dimension", written in my 9-tone scale of the same name

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/DimensionHCMAX128.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/22/2011 2:40:55 PM

Aaron sent me an e-mail saying posting of the "losing" entry mp3's is, in fact,
ok by him and Untwelve.

So I have re-posted my "losing" entry... :-D
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/DimensionHCMAX128.mp3

No more 404's/file-not-found!

Far as the style...soft breakbeats, tons of instrumental solos, and a very
playful feel. It's a whole lot softer than dance music...but a whole lot more
energetic than a whole lot of new-age/classical stuff. The tuning feel is
somewhere between Mohajira and quarter-comma-meantone...as is the scale used (my
Dimension 9-tone scale)...built to represent an attempt to forge a common ground
between strict microtonalism and strict common practice theory.

Put it this way...I'd feel confident playing this one at a non-experimental
venue in front of people who have never heard micro-tonallity, even for
dancing...but, at the same time, trust there are enough 11-limit nuances and
instrumental variation to keep musicians more into the serious technical side of
microtonal happy. I'd also say it's probably the best song I've ever written so
far...yes, better than my "Sutra" track I posted a few weeks ago.
Enjoy!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

1/22/2011 2:50:16 PM

Very nice! Did you run this through the DSP plugin?

-Mike

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Aaron sent me an e-mail saying posting of the "losing" entry mp3's is, in fact,
> ok by him and Untwelve.
>
> So I have re-posted my "losing" entry... :-D
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/DimensionHCMAX128.mp3
>
> No more 404's/file-not-found!
>
> Far as the style...soft breakbeats, tons of instrumental solos, and a very
> playful feel. It's a whole lot softer than dance music...but a whole lot more
> energetic than a whole lot of new-age/classical stuff. The tuning feel is
> somewhere between Mohajira and quarter-comma-meantone...as is the scale used (my
> Dimension 9-tone scale)...built to represent an attempt to forge a common ground
> between strict microtonalism and strict common practice theory.
>
> Put it this way...I'd feel confident playing this one at a non-experimental
> venue in front of people who have never heard micro-tonallity, even for
> dancing...but, at the same time, trust there are enough 11-limit nuances and
> instrumental variation to keep musicians more into the serious technical side of
> microtonal happy. I'd also say it's probably the best song I've ever written so
> far...yes, better than my "Sutra" track I posted a few weeks ago.
> Enjoy!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/22/2011 3:04:13 PM

Me> "So I have re-posted my "losing" entry... :-D

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/DimensionHCMAX128.mp3"

Mike>"Very nice! Did you run this through the DSP plugin?"

Glad you enjoyed it. :-) And no, it was not...though maybe I should make
a second version with the "align all overtones to microtonal scale" DSP effect
applied? :-D

Much as I get a kick out of doing Sethares-style overtone alignment with my
DSP code...I was too scared it would degrade the sound quality to sounding "too
weird" AKA "too processed" for the competition. So, amazingly...the version
above is done with plain old instrument samples...and no Sethares-style
"cheating" on the timbres. :-D

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/22/2011 3:10:02 PM

At 02:40 PM 1/22/2011, you wrote:
>Aaron sent me an e-mail saying posting of the "losing" entry mp3's is,
>in fact, ok by him and Untwelve.

What about the winning entries?

It doesn't sound like Untwelve has any rights over any of the material.

-Carl

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/22/2011 3:19:21 PM

Carl>"What about the winning entries? It doesn't sound like Untwelve has any
rights over any of the material."

Aaron just wrote back to all us/the contestants. He seems to say
A) There's going to be no CD this time around...it's most likely just not a
profitable idea
B) He's apparently trying to keep finalists music from being released to drum
up anticipation for the "dark concert" coming up late this month...so the
anticipation for the event will be higher when the winning entries are
"unveiled" there.
C) Like I said before, Aaron clarified "the "losing" entry mp3's is, in fact, ok
by Aaron and Untwelve." He seemed to say the purpose of holding release
back...was to drum up excitement for the competition and results. So no legal
rights, apparently, were ever involved, despite the huge (paraphrased) "you can
not enter released music" warning Aaron (re?)issued a few days before the end of
the competition.

I say "seemed/appeared to say" because this is my take on Aaron's
e-mail...and not Aaron himself.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/22/2011 3:23:40 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> What about the winning entries?
>
> It doesn't sound like Untwelve has any rights over any of the material.

They don't, but they have asked the finalists and winners not release their works to the public prior to the "concert" on the 30th, just to keep up interest for the concert. There will be no CD, either, but interviews with the winners and the winning tracks will be hosted on the UnTwelve site.

So, y'all are gonna have to wait until after the 30th to hear my piece, at least. But I hope the rest of you who entered will share your pieces!

-Igs

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/22/2011 3:57:37 PM

That seems reasonable. -Carl

Igs wrote:
>> It doesn't sound like Untwelve has any rights over any of the material.
>
>They don't, but they have asked the finalists and winners not release
>their works to the public prior to the "concert" on the 30th, just to
>keep up interest for the concert. There will be no CD, either, but
>interviews with the winners and the winning tracks will be hosted on
>the UnTwelve site.
>
>So, y'all are gonna have to wait until after the 30th to hear my
>piece, at least. But I hope the rest of you who entered will share
>your pieces!

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/22/2011 4:55:29 PM

This is quite interesting. There is a great deal of depth to the layers. My
prog rock classical mind doesn't know quite what to make of the iconic
nature of the music. Have you heard any Edgar Varese? He had at least one
piece that was an iteration of a chord (can't remember the name off hand -
ionization?) - as I remember various sections an orchestra taking turns
playing this huge sonority - sometimes together - sometimes not. This has
that sort of effect on me though not nearly as dissonant.

I was too busy and had to drop out of the bad / good tuning conversation - I
gotta say your tuning her sounds very pleasant - is it harmonic timbre
aided?

And lastly - liquid beats - is it the literal sloshing sound in the middle
of the stereo field?

Very nice over all - I'm enjoying it and you know I'm not a big fan of IDM.

Chris

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> Aaron sent me an e-mail saying posting of the "losing" entry mp3's is, in
> fact,
> ok by him and Untwelve.
>
> So I have re-posted my "losing" entry... :-D
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/DimensionHCMAX128.mp3
>
> No more 404's/file-not-found!
>
> Far as the style...soft breakbeats, tons of instrumental solos, and a very
> playful feel. It's a whole lot softer than dance music...but a whole lot
> more
> energetic than a whole lot of new-age/classical stuff. The tuning feel is
> somewhere between Mohajira and quarter-comma-meantone...as is the scale
> used (my
> Dimension 9-tone scale)...built to represent an attempt to forge a common
> ground
> between strict microtonalism and strict common practice theory.
>
> Put it this way...I'd feel confident playing this one at a non-experimental
>
> venue in front of people who have never heard micro-tonallity, even for
> dancing...but, at the same time, trust there are enough 11-limit nuances
> and
> instrumental variation to keep musicians more into the serious technical
> side of
> microtonal happy. I'd also say it's probably the best song I've ever
> written so
> far...yes, better than my "Sutra" track I posted a few weeks ago.
> Enjoy!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

1/22/2011 4:57:02 PM

Here you go Igs

http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=453

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 6:23 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:

But I hope the rest of you who entered will share your pieces!

-Igs

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/22/2011 5:57:38 PM

I think your guys' pieces are really nice and worthwhile (Michael, Chris, Gene, anyone else post here?). Chuckk's is pretty sweet too, I heard it on the Csound list. I'm happy that the pieces all were obviously made with expressive intent, not just tuning exercises or out of tune "regular" music.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Here you go Igs
>
> http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=453
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 6:23 PM, cityoftheasleep
> <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> But I hope the rest of you who entered will share your pieces!
>
> -Igs
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/22/2011 6:31:11 PM

Chris>"This is quite interesting. There is a great deal of depth to the layers."

Glad you enjoyed it! As usual with me, I was indulging myself with a whole
bunch of 6+ note chords trying to "ooze" some extra tonal color out of my
composition...not to say that's the best way to do things for everyone...but
it's always been the style I like to compose and likely always will be.

>"My prog rock classical mind doesn't know quite what to make of the iconic
>nature of the music."

It's ok, because it's not supposed to. :-D The whole point was to be playful
(cross-genre, dynamic instrumental arrangement, cross-chord type and modulation,
progressive but theme centric...) to the point that there's no practical
explanation just a feeling of being overwhelmed yet relaxed. I guess you could
say IDM is about the closest single genre generalization you can give to it
(crazy beats, detailed progressions...)...then again, I dare you to find a piece
of IDM that sounds anything like it.

>"I was too busy and had to drop out of the bad / good tuning conversation - I
gotta say your tuning here sounds very pleasant - is it harmonic timbre
aided?"

As I (also) replied to Mike B about the same issue...amazingly...not at
all...it uses completely unaltered acoustic timbres, no harmonic timbre
aiding/shifting, no "cheating" that way. I know I brag about Dimension tuning
(used in this song) being able to do uncanny things but hey...there you go! :-)
In fact there are three, yes, three 22/15 fifths and 3 sets of the following
intervals (12/11, 15/11, 11/9, 11/6, and 18/11) to go with them...and I use all
of them in that song...again without any sort of overtone matching to achieve
the level of consonance in the song. Mathematically you'd think they'd sound
nasty but, in context, I swear...they can work in a way virtual as "stable" far
as consonance as 7-limit...even in things like the "worst" chords possible in
the scale such as 15:18:22.

This all goes back to my general theory that
A) Certain 11-limit dyads both have an advantage in clarity over others (IE
14/11, 16/11,17/11,19/11,20/11,21/11....aren't them, but the 11-limit ratios I
use are)
and
B) These 11-limit dyads can have their complex feel to a large extent
neutralized by simpler dyads when said 11-limit dyads are precisely estimated
(IE within 8 cents)...so chords made with them act much as if they were simpler
triads (or tetrads or pentads or "worse").... :-D

>"Have you heard any Edgar Varese? He had at least one piece that was an
>iteration of a chord (can't remember the name off hand - ionization?) - as I
>remember various sections an orchestra taking turns
playing this huge sonority - sometimes together - sometimes not. This has that
sort of effect on me though not nearly as dissonant.

Well, I "randomly" switched instruments for certain notes both
A) To put different levels of stress on each note without using something
obvious and more mechanical sounding (IE velocity/volume)

B) to improve production quality for some of those chords so large they sounded
muffled when played with just 1-2 instruments or even 5 or so instruments each
attached to a single part/melody.
Had no clue about Edgar Varese though, or that someone else would be "crazy"
enough to try such a bizarre arrangement technique...will have to check it out.

>"And lastly - liquid beats - is it the literal sloshing sound in the middle of
>the stereo field?"

Not at all...but it's funny because, I actually did use a water sample
through an aggressive resonant high-pass filter to substitute for a cymbal in
this song! :-D
But in all honesty, I was trying for a very natural feel and trying hard to
avoid the "mechanical dance music" feel, so all the drums are literally made
from things like wood blocks, water sounds, thunder sounds, etc. ...I wanted it
to flow like a liquid breakbeat but not have the qualities people who like
classical music hate about breakbeats IE the blatantly aggressive/artificial
nature of the drum sounds.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/23/2011 10:55:02 AM

Say Michael I'm listening to your piece again and my judgement is that you have "won", because you did exactly what you set out to do, and very well. Soft and sonorous,, totally accessible without being sappy, and xenharmonic. A whole album along these lines would be a great project to tackle.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Aaron sent me an e-mail saying posting of the "losing" entry mp3's is, in fact,
> ok by him and Untwelve.
>
> So I have re-posted my "losing" entry... :-D
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/DimensionHCMAX128.mp3
>
>
> No more 404's/file-not-found!
>
>
> Far as the style...soft breakbeats, tons of instrumental solos, and a very
> playful feel. It's a whole lot softer than dance music...but a whole lot more
> energetic than a whole lot of new-age/classical stuff. The tuning feel is
> somewhere between Mohajira and quarter-comma-meantone...as is the scale used (my
> Dimension 9-tone scale)...built to represent an attempt to forge a common ground
> between strict microtonalism and strict common practice theory.
>
> Put it this way...I'd feel confident playing this one at a non-experimental
> venue in front of people who have never heard micro-tonallity, even for
> dancing...but, at the same time, trust there are enough 11-limit nuances and
> instrumental variation to keep musicians more into the serious technical side of
> microtonal happy. I'd also say it's probably the best song I've ever written so
> far...yes, better than my "Sutra" track I posted a few weeks ago.
> Enjoy!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/23/2011 11:39:13 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> Say Michael I'm listening to your piece again and my judgement is that you have "won", because you did exactly what you set out to do, and very well. Soft and sonorous,, totally accessible without being sappy, and xenharmonic. A whole album along these lines would be a great project to tackle.

What I don't get is why UnTwelve, having successfully gotten people to write a lot of microtonal music, doesn't want to host the results. They did that last year also, and as a result George Secor's piece, which at least one judge thought was the best one submitted, isn't hosted. It's as if they forgot the purpose of having the contest in the first place.

🔗Caleb Morgan <calebmrgn@...>

1/23/2011 12:12:41 PM

I also listened and thought Michael's piece was good.

In fact, it is a sure sign that a piece is good if I feel slightly envious and
wonder if I'm pursuing the wrong path when I listen to it.

Nah, couldn't be.

caleb

________________________________
From: genewardsmith <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 2:39:13 PM
Subject: [MMM] Re: My/Michael's Untwelve entry...finally reposted!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> Say Michael I'm listening to your piece again and my judgement is that you have
>"won", because you did exactly what you set out to do, and very well. Soft and
>sonorous,, totally accessible without being sappy, and xenharmonic. A whole
>album along these lines would be a great project to tackle.

What I don't get is why UnTwelve, having successfully gotten people to write a
lot of microtonal music, doesn't want to host the results. They did that last
year also, and as a result George Secor's piece, which at least one judge
thought was the best one submitted, isn't hosted. It's as if they forgot the
purpose of having the contest in the first place.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/23/2011 12:04:34 PM

Well, I guess that they're trying to promote their vision of how things should be "untwelved". This may be at odds with the visions of those who submitted pieces, and maybe untwelve thinks that some of the submitted pieces simply suck, or have other reservations about them, based on taste for example.

That is, getting people to write microtonal music isn't really the reason for the contest, rather, the reason for the contest is to promote the tastes and visions of the judges. Which is fine. So I
think it's fair for them to be hosting just the pieces they chose.

But I do see your point, by virtue of your George Secor example. The
solution there is quite easy: hosting "personal picks" of the various judges.

The fable of the old man, the young boy, and the donkey is, of course, always going to be relevant.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

>
> What I don't get is why UnTwelve, having successfully gotten people to write a lot of microtonal music, doesn't want to host the results. They did that last year also, and as a result George Secor's piece, which at least one judge thought was the best one submitted, isn't hosted. It's as if they forgot the purpose of having the contest in the first place.
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/23/2011 1:35:13 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I guess that they're trying to promote their vision of how things should be "untwelved".

You talk as if there was a single coherent vision which all of the judges adopted, but judging by last year's results, that's hardly the case.

This may be at odds with the visions of those who submitted pieces, and maybe untwelve thinks that some of the submitted pieces simply suck, or have other reservations about them, based on taste for example.

So you think perhaps it's a Father Knows Best syndrome? I much prefer to make my own judgments about value if so, thank you very much.

> That is, getting people to write microtonal music isn't really the reason for the contest, rather, the reason for the contest is to promote the tastes and visions of the judges. Which is fine.

I don't think that is the case and I certainly hope it isn't, because that isn't fine.

So I
> think it's fair for them to be hosting just the pieces they chose.
>
> But I do see your point, by virtue of your George Secor example. The
> solution there is quite easy: hosting "personal picks" of the various judges.

That would make sense, but I'm still left with the point that while I'm interested in hearing someone else's opinion, I'm not interested in someone else deciding what my taste should be. I suspect I'd like George's piece; I certainly would like to hear it and think it should have been hosted, for one obvious example. The point as I see it to the contest was to get people to do their best, not to have some group impose a "vision" which I suspect, given the disparate nature of the judges, does not exist.

The bottom line is I thought I was going to be able to hear all the qualified (ie, actually microtonal) entries, and feel very let down.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/23/2011 1:46:33 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> > That is, getting people to write microtonal music isn't really the reason for the contest, rather, the reason for the contest is to promote the tastes and visions of the judges. Which is fine.
>
> I don't think that is the case and I certainly hope it isn't, because that isn't fine.

Just to clarify, if the purpose of the contest is to promote a particular style or kind of microtonal music, that should have been made clear. But last year it was all over the map in terms of style and "vision", so I don't think this can be true.

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/23/2011 2:20:29 PM

I don't think it's about a particular style, but about a general attitude as to what's "untwelve" or "xenharmonic" in the first place,
and what alternative-tuning music is acceptable as such. And these things, from what I've seen, have a lot of stylistic, associative,
and social considerations, probably unconscious considerations.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
>
> > > That is, getting people to write microtonal music isn't really the reason for the contest, rather, the reason for the contest is to promote the tastes and visions of the judges. Which is fine.
> >
> > I don't think that is the case and I certainly hope it isn't, because that isn't fine.
>
> Just to clarify, if the purpose of the contest is to promote a particular style or kind of microtonal music, that should have been made clear. But last year it was all over the map in terms of style and "vision", so I don't think this can be true.
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/23/2011 3:10:20 PM

Gene>"This may be at odds with the visions of those who submitted pieces, and
maybe untwelve thinks that some of the submitted pieces simply suck, or have
other reservations about them, based on taste for example.

So you think perhaps it's a Father Knows Best syndrome?"

I know your discussion was with Cameron...but I sure as...I think it
certainly was. It's like they are trying to "protect microtonallity from
earning itself a bad impression by protecting the public from 'bad' songs".

Even if I were to put my own ego and effort completely aside, for example,
I'm still quite upset Chris's (IMVHO amazing) piece isn't getting hosted and
almost as frustrated about Gene's piece not getting host.

I've seen sites like the original Trax In Space that seemed to have the
right idea: host competitions and list all the judges' winning entries and stamp
those entries online with a "competition winner" image (kind of like a
"recommended" award)...but then provide links to all the other music in the
competition and let the public vote afterward.

Sometimes what actually happened...was the public opinion was at high odds
with the judges for certain songs...although the judges generally had a fairly
good idea what worked well. Also, usually, I found if the public consistently
rated something bad, along with the judges...those were, perhaps, the only
entries that could "hurt" the site's reputation. And even then, a site can
protect itself by listing songs in order of descending rating to "save face".

But to be clear, I don't think censoring out non-competition-winning music
completely is by anyway "protecting to image of microtonallity" or anything like
that.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/23/2011 3:55:54 PM

It could be as simple as not having enough server space, too.

I've heard music from the prize-winners and a good number of the judges and of those who submitted works, and that's really what I'm
going to base my own personal opinions on.

As far as hosting and promoting, there's nothing stopping anyone
from doing that themselves, were they to feel strongly in disagreement with Untwelve for whatever reason.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Gene>"This may be at odds with the visions of those who submitted pieces, and
> maybe untwelve thinks that some of the submitted pieces simply suck, or have
> other reservations about them, based on taste for example.
>
> So you think perhaps it's a Father Knows Best syndrome?"
>
> I know your discussion was with Cameron...but I sure as...I think it
> certainly was. It's like they are trying to "protect microtonallity from
> earning itself a bad impression by protecting the public from 'bad' songs".
>
> Even if I were to put my own ego and effort completely aside, for example,
> I'm still quite upset Chris's (IMVHO amazing) piece isn't getting hosted and
> almost as frustrated about Gene's piece not getting host.
>
>
> I've seen sites like the original Trax In Space that seemed to have the
> right idea: host competitions and list all the judges' winning entries and stamp
> those entries online with a "competition winner" image (kind of like a
> "recommended" award)...but then provide links to all the other music in the
> competition and let the public vote afterward.
>
> Sometimes what actually happened...was the public opinion was at high odds
> with the judges for certain songs...although the judges generally had a fairly
> good idea what worked well. Also, usually, I found if the public consistently
> rated something bad, along with the judges...those were, perhaps, the only
> entries that could "hurt" the site's reputation. And even then, a site can
> protect itself by listing songs in order of descending rating to "save face".
>
> But to be clear, I don't think censoring out non-competition-winning music
> completely is by anyway "protecting to image of microtonallity" or anything like
> that.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/23/2011 4:11:12 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> It could be as simple as not having enough server space, too.

Given how cheap memory is that doesn't seem likely.

> As far as hosting and promoting, there's nothing stopping anyone
> from doing that themselves, were they to feel strongly in disagreement with Untwelve for whatever reason.

I thought of that. It would require emailing everyone on the list and seeing if the flac file could be obtained. But that would kind of poke a stick into the eye of UnTwelve, wouldn't it?

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

1/23/2011 3:34:41 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> Just to clarify, if the purpose of the contest is to promote a particular style or kind of
> microtonal music, that should have been made clear. But last year it was all over the map in
> terms of style and "vision", so I don't think this can be true.

Indeed, if you look at the list of judges, it should be clear that there is little common ground between them except that they (or at least, the ones I recognize--Elaine Walker, Dante Rosati, Kraig Grady) are accomplished microtonal musicians in their own right. Also, I personally can't imagine how a contest could do anything BUT promote the tastes of the judges--to what standard should they judge if not their own taste? Being given the role of "judge" presupposes that a person is qualified to pronounce judgment, and submitting work to the contest presupposes that the entrant approves of having one's work judged by the judges. It's fine to disagree with the judgments (frankly I'm not convinced I deserved 3rd place, I don't think my piece was that good), but questioning the tastes of the judges or the standards by which they judge, after you've already submitted to their judgment, looks a bit like sour grapes.

-Igs

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/23/2011 8:04:05 PM

The point of contests is NOT to promote the tastes of the judges,
but rather to cause an amount of economic output worth more than
the prizes paid. This is what Gene meant when he said they'd
forgotten what contests are for. I didn't see anyone questioning
the tastes of the judges. -Carl

>Indeed, if you look at the list of judges, it should be clear that
>there is little common ground between them except that they (or at
>least, the ones I recognize--Elaine Walker, Dante Rosati, Kraig Grady)
>are accomplished microtonal musicians in their own right. Also, I
>personally can't imagine how a contest could do anything BUT promote
>the tastes of the judges--to what standard should they judge if not
>their own taste? Being given the role of "judge" presupposes that a
>person is qualified to pronounce judgment, and submitting work to the
>contest presupposes that the entrant approves of having one's work
>judged by the judges. It's fine to disagree with the judgments
>(frankly I'm not convinced I deserved 3rd place, I don't think my
>piece was that good), but questioning the tastes of the judges or the
>standards by which they judge, after you've already submitted to their
>judgment, looks a bit like sour grapes.
>
>-Igs

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/23/2011 8:04:39 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

>It's fine to disagree with the judgments (frankly I'm not convinced I deserved 3rd place, I don't think my piece was that good), but questioning the tastes of the judges or the standards by which they judge, after you've already submitted to their judgment, looks a bit like sour grapes.

I wasn't questioning the taste of the judges, I was saying that I reserve the right to have my own taste and my own standards, and that adding up scores by very disparate judges for very disparate musical content isn't likely to mean much if you are contending that some sort of objective judgment has been made. It works fine as a way of awarding prizes, and people should stick to calling it that--a decision process to award the prizes. But this has pretty well become moot since Aaron is going to try to get as much of the music as possible hosted.

Perhaps it's the mathematician in me; I don't like promoting some supposed "measurement" you've computed as objective simply because it has numbers in it. I groused and complained for years about the complex mathematical massaging that went into computing the "value" of a derivative as if that value was an objective fact. But all of my dark mutterings about GIGO and argument by mathematical intimidation fell far short of the ugly reality. If you think something is objective simply because numbers went into the making of it, it just aint so and people should get over thinking it does and making claims on that basis.

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

1/23/2011 8:20:41 PM

On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> The point of contests is NOT to promote the tastes of the judges,
> but rather to cause an amount of economic output worth more than
> the prizes paid. This is what Gene meant when he said they'd
> forgotten what contests are for. I didn't see anyone questioning
> the tastes of the judges. -Carl

As an aside, this is why I also support contests with no judges at
all, and in which the winner is chosen by popular vote on an online
poll. "But then the winner is the guy who has the most Facebook
friends!" Yes, and this is exactly what microtonal music needs at this
point: people getting their friends to listen to more microtonal
music.

Let people vote more than once, under the presumption that they have
to listen to the piece of music each time before voting. Maybe limit
it to once per day. Be creative and log IPs, etc.

Contests like these serve a different function in popularizing
microtonal music and should coexist alongside the more serious, judged
contests. They aren't supposed to be as "fair" as a serious
composition contest with a panel of qualified judges, but they're
still fun and I don't see any reason why people wouldn't want to
participate in them. Prize money would obviously be less than a judged
contest.

It might also serve a useful function in our being able to see what
tunings generally end up being the most popular, or if any tuning
could work assuming the texture, production, etc are up to par with
professional standards.

If people are really going to sit there cycling through Tor nodes so
they can keep voting themselves up, they probably deserve to win
anyway.

-Mike

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/24/2011 1:34:45 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

Yes, that's my point- a contest is pretty much going to promote the tastes of the judges, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is a contest, not a court of law.

Note that you don't actually know who and how many judges there were, that was never stated. "will include" is not "consists of".

>Being given the role of "judge" presupposes that a person is >qualified to pronounce judgment, and submitting work to the contest >presupposes that the entrant approves of having one's work judged by >the judges. It's fine to disagree with the judgments (frankly I'm >not convinced I deserved 3rd place, I don't think my piece was that >good), but questioning the tastes of the judges or the standards by >which they judge, after you've already submitted to their judgment, >looks a bit like sour grapes.

It only looks like "sour grapes" to people who've been raised as sheep. It is the divine right of democracy to bitch and moan. :-)

However, "Untwelve" is not a democratic institution, nor does it have
any obligation to be one! The judges should stand by their votes. My attitude toward Untwelve must be based on the assumption that the judges- 14 of them I guess, but I don't know- voted with conviction and thumbs up to voting with conviction.

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/24/2011 2:48:37 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> The point of contests is NOT to promote the tastes of the judges,
> but rather to cause an amount of economic output worth more than
> the prizes paid. This is what Gene meant when he said they'd
> forgotten what contests are for. I didn't see anyone questioning
> the tastes of the judges. -Carl

I don't understand how the "economic output" thing would work in the case of Untwelve, that would be interesting to hear explained. Individually or in committee I annually dole out many times as much cash to musicians than the prizes at Untwelve (including more than all the prizes there together, for single shows), so I have a real curiosity... as well as concrete experience with popularizing microtonality. :-)

I just don't see any sense to the thing than promoting the collective musical/social vision of the judges- which is fine!

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

1/24/2011 8:53:44 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@...> wrote:

> I just don't see any sense to the thing than promoting the collective musical/social vision of the judges- which is fine!
>

To induce people not only to compose microtonal music, but to give it their best shot. The music is the product; the rest of the circus is incidental.

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

1/24/2011 9:38:28 AM

Cameron> I just don't see any sense to the thing than promoting the collective
musical/social vision of the judges- which is fine!
Gene>"To induce people not only to compose microtonal music, but to give it
their best shot. The music is the product; the rest of the circus is
incidental."

Right, but then who hears said music? My point was that a lot of people
who could have gotten exposed to a lot more music they like...likely won't get
to. People like Chris and I, say, could post the music on our sites...but that
wouldn't have any sort of guarantee of quality that would likely attract a fair
share of trusting listeners...like something that was in some shape or form
approved by judges of a contest would. The issue is, chances are most of such
songs will remain pretty much unheard.

It's kind of the same problem I have trying to find ambient drum and bass
songs...so few artists get publicity promoted listed. So I have to sift through
several bins of records to find even one artist in that genre, not to mention
"guessing" which one(s) I may like since there are no charts or rating systems
for them...and sometimes, after digging through 50 or so records at a record
store that allow "demoing" of their tracks and only finding one or no songs I
like...I just give up (and I'm pretty patient...).

Same kind of effect, I figure, would likely happen with an online
listener...only they'd say, try 6 or so tracks at random (say, 3 winners plus 3
random non-winner links on Untwelve)...and if they didn't like anything out of
the 3 they picked at random, they would simply give up a figure the pattern is
"none of the songs beside the winning ones are any good".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

1/24/2011 11:04:40 AM

Cameron wrote:

>> The point of contests is NOT to promote the tastes of the judges,
>> but rather to cause an amount of economic output worth more than
>> the prizes paid. This is what Gene meant when he said they'd
>> forgotten what contests are for. I didn't see anyone questioning
>> the tastes of the judges. -Carl
>
>I don't understand how the "economic output" thing would work in the
>case of Untwelve, that would be interesting to hear explained.

If the prize fund is $900, a successful contest will result in
the creation of more than $900 of content. That's because the
contestants' estimates of their chances of winning don't sum
to 1 (in classical economics). Or in behavioral economics, it's
simply because the contestants are irrational. While normally
I don't think behavioral economics is worth a damn, it might
actually be for choice in the case of musicians. :P

Anyway, there appear to be at least 39 contestants. If you had
to individually find and hire 39 musicians to create microtonal
music, would your budget exceed $900?

-Carl

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

1/24/2011 2:13:51 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Cameron wrote:
>
> >> The point of contests is NOT to promote the tastes of the judges,
> >> but rather to cause an amount of economic output worth more than
> >> the prizes paid. This is what Gene meant when he said they'd
> >> forgotten what contests are for. I didn't see anyone questioning
> >> the tastes of the judges. -Carl
> >
> >I don't understand how the "economic output" thing would work in the
> >case of Untwelve, that would be interesting to hear explained.
>
> If the prize fund is $900, a successful contest will result in
> the creation of more than $900 of content. That's because the
> contestants' estimates of their chances of winning don't sum
> to 1 (in classical economics). Or in behavioral economics, it's
> simply because the contestants are irrational. While normally
> I don't think behavioral economics is worth a damn, it might
> actually be for choice in the case of musicians. :P
>
> Anyway, there appear to be at least 39 contestants. If you had
> to individually find and hire 39 musicians to create microtonal
> music, would your budget exceed $900?
>
> -Carl

I realize how that works, I just think that's a tool in this case, not the goal. There's nothing wrong with using this tool. If it were a matter of bulk "value", Untwelve would be hosting all the pieces. But they're not- they're hosting selected pieces, which means that (regardless of original intent, actually), the contest in effect is promoting the collective tastes and visions of the judges. The collective vision may be different or even radically opposed to the individual visions of some judges, of course.

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

2/3/2011 2:22:16 PM

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File : /djtrancendance/17tetshort.mp3
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🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

2/8/2011 9:57:29 AM

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/17tetshort.mp3

Short example (read: NOT a full song) of a 7-tone scale under 17TET in
action. I tried my best to take Igs's advice and make the amount of tension
vary (basic triads at the beginning of the sequence (which repeats twice)...and
much tenser ones at the end that resolve to the basic triads at the beginning of
the next sequence. I also used a bassline on a completely independent rhythm
from the triads...yes, I'm trying to sound more "polyphonic" and less
"sound-scapey".

Thoughts?

________________________________
From: "MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com" <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
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Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 11:53:28 AM
Subject: [MMM] New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

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Regards,

cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/4/2011 2:06:07 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Lobawad/11equalRaspberryVelvet.mp3
Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
Description : extract from "Raspberry Velvet", 11 equal

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/11equalRaspberryVelvet.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

3/4/2011 2:08:19 AM

Ok that is definitely Cameron not Mark. -Carl

At 02:06 AM 3/4/2011, you wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
>This email message is a notification to let you know that
>a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
>group.
>
> File : /Lobawad/11equalRaspberryVelvet.mp3
> Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
> Description : extract from "Raspberry Velvet", 11 equal
>
>You can access this file at the URL:
>/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/11equalRasp
>berryVelvet.mp3
>
>To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
>http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
>Regards,
>
>lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Marcel <m.develde@...>

3/4/2011 2:48:51 AM

Ah I was wrong!
I really thought it was Petr haha.

Welcome back Cameron!! :)

-Marcel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Ok that is definitely Cameron not Mark. -Carl
>
> At 02:06 AM 3/4/2011, you wrote:
> >
> >Hello,
> >
> >This email message is a notification to let you know that
> >a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> >group.
> >
> > File : /Lobawad/11equalRaspberryVelvet.mp3
> > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
> > Description : extract from "Raspberry Velvet", 11 equal
> >
> >You can access this file at the URL:
> >/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/11equalRasp
> >berryVelvet.mp3
> >
> >To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> >http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> >Regards,
> >
> >lobawad <lobawad@...>
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

3/4/2011 6:04:44 AM

The advent of positive/non-negative sarcasm, optimism even in technical details, and actual musical postings from "Lobawad" all "reek" of Cameron. :-)

--- On Fri, 3/4/11, Marcel <m.develde@...> wrote:

From: Marcel <m.develde@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, March 4, 2011, 2:48 AM

Ah I was wrong!

I really thought it was Petr haha.

Welcome back Cameron!! :)

-Marcel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Ok that is definitely Cameron not Mark. -Carl

> At 02:06 AM 3/4/2011, you wrote:

> >

> >Hello,

> >

> >This email message is a notification to let you know that

> >a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic

> >group.

> >

> > File : /Lobawad/11equalRaspberryVelvet.mp3

> > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>

> > Description : extract from "Raspberry Velvet", 11 equal

> >

> >You can access this file at the URL:

> >/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/11equalRasp

> >berryVelvet.mp3

> >

> >To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:

> >http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html

> >Regards,

> >

> >lobawad <lobawad@...>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/4/2011 8:20:43 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> File : /Lobawad/11equalRaspberryVelvet.mp3
> Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
> Description : extract from "Raspberry Velvet", 11 equal

11 equal with soul! Thanks, Lob.

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

3/4/2011 8:34:55 AM

Yes, it's a swell piece.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

genewardsmith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>> File : /Lobawad/11equalRaspberryVelvet.mp3
>> Uploaded by : lobawad<lobawad@...>
>> Description : extract from "Raspberry Velvet", 11 equal
>
> 11 equal with soul! Thanks, Lob.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

3/4/2011 9:32:20 AM

Agreed. -Carl

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/4/2011 6:19:13 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
Uploaded by : purest_intonation@... <purest_intonation@...>
Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

purest_intonation@... <purest_intonation@...>

🔗purest_intonation@...

3/4/2011 6:36:48 PM

Greetings, community!

Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the principles of functional harmony and have been observing the developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to demonstrate it with a composition!

This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece, the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall be rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!

I will be posting more compositions in short order which will hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde discovered and I have perfected.

Enjoy!

--Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> Uploaded by : purest_intonation@... <purest_intonation@...>
> Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> purest_intonation@... <purest_intonation@...>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

3/4/2011 7:58:39 PM

I am speechless. It is so pure I have regained my virginity. I wait to hear
what Mr. DeVelde says.

Chris

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 9:36 PM, purest_intonation@... <
purest_intonation@...> wrote:

>
>
> Greetings, community!
>
> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here and on the
> tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who has been intrested in
> the study of Just Intonation for many years. I have found traditional
> theories of Just Intonation to be wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional
> needs and the principles of functional harmony and have been observing the
> developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and chagrin. I know
> he is not well-respected here but I have been studying his retunings of the
> Drei Equale closely and I have attained a great understanding from his
> methods. In fact I dare say I understand his own theory better than he does,
> and rather than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to
> demonstrate it with a composition!
>
> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in the
> history of Western music that has been written perfectly in tune with the
> principles of True Just Intonation and Functional Harmony. It is a
> revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected the
> principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked
> the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes.
> I have rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq
> and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering job done by
> a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in time pending royalty
> negotiations. I am certain the notoriously fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find
> its quality surpassing on his monitors which have revealed the deficiencies
> of all other audio posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this
> piece, the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall be
> rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
>
> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will hasten the
> revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde discovered and I have
> perfected.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.comwrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > group.
> >
> > File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> > Uploaded by : purest_intonation@... <purest_intonation@...>
> > Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI
> >
> > You can access this file at the URL:
> >
> /makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> >
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > Regards,
> >
> > purest_intonation@... <purest_intonation@...>
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jsmith9624@...

3/4/2011 8:06:23 PM

Ah. The plot thickens...

Sincerely,

Roger A. Hammerstein

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "purest_intonation@..."
<purest_intonation@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings, community!
>
> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here and on
the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who has been
intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many years. I have found
traditional theories of Just Intonation to be wholly unsatisfactory for
my compositional needs and the principles of functional harmony and have
been observing the developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of
awe and chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been
studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have attained a
great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare say I understand
his own theory better than he does, and rather than prove it by retuning
some old piece, I am going to demonstrate it with a composition!
>
> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in the
history of Western music that has been written perfectly in tune with
the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional Harmony. It is a
revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected
the principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and
re-checked the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can
be no mistakes. I have rendered my composition with the best available
software (Pianoteq and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional
mastering job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in
time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously
fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his monitors
which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio posted here. I
am equally certain that upon hearing this piece, the skeptics who have
so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall be rendered silent, and
will hence forth show him the due respect!
>
> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will hasten
the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde discovered and I have
perfected.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > group.
> >
> > File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> > Uploaded by : purest_intonation@ purest_intonation@
> > Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI
> >
> > You can access this file at the URL:
> >
/makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etu\
deofpurity1.mp3
> >
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> >
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > Regards,
> >
> > purest_intonation@ purest_intonation@
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

3/4/2011 9:42:12 PM

Are you f***ing kidding me.

First Lobawad, now this.

Marcel on his own was bad enough, but this slew of pseudonymous soap-opera nonsense trying to get his goat is too much. HE FEEDS ON THIS S**T, PEOPLE! THIS ISN'T HELPING!

If anyone needs me, I'll be on the Tuning List, where moderators actually moderate and meaningful discussion is still a possibility. I thought this place was supposed to be the strictly-music-focused alternative to the TL?

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "purest_intonation@..." <purest_intonation@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings, community!
>
> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the principles of functional harmony and have been observing the developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to demonstrate it with a composition!
>
> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece, the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall be rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
>
> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde discovered and I have perfected.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > group.
> >
> > File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> > Uploaded by : purest_intonation@ <purest_intonation@>
> > Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI
> >
> > You can access this file at the URL:
> > /makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> >
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > Regards,
> >
> > purest_intonation@ <purest_intonation@>
> >
>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

3/4/2011 9:45:55 PM

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 9:36 PM, purest_intonation@...
<purest_intonation@...> wrote:
> It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes.

LOL!

> I have rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in time pending royalty negotiations.

This is classic. I'm guessing either Carl or Oz.

-Mike

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

3/4/2011 9:47:55 PM

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:42 AM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Are you f***ing kidding me.
>
> First Lobawad, now this.
>
> Marcel on his own was bad enough, but this slew of pseudonymous soap-opera nonsense trying to get his goat is too much. HE FEEDS ON THIS S**T, PEOPLE! THIS ISN'T HELPING!
>
> If anyone needs me, I'll be on the Tuning List, where moderators actually moderate and meaningful discussion is still a possibility. I thought this place was supposed to be the strictly-music-focused alternative to the TL?

nm, now I think it's Igs.

-Mike

🔗Marcel <m.develde@...>

3/5/2011 12:48:31 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Marcel on his own was bad enough, but this slew of pseudonymous soap-opera nonsense trying to get his goat is too much. HE FEEDS ON THIS S**T, PEOPLE! THIS ISN'T HELPING!
>

Indeed the mp3 post isn't helping anybody. And I'm not going to reply to it.
Also, I don't feed on negativity, it rather annoys me.

> If anyone needs me, I'll be on the Tuning List, where moderators actually moderate and meaningful discussion is still a possibility. I thought this place was supposed to be the strictly-music-focused alternative to the TL?
>
> -Igs

Yes, please do tell all the people who constantly start non music focused negative flames / personal attacks.

-Marcel

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

3/5/2011 7:07:41 AM

Purity of pure CRAP more like it. No one is buying your act Marcel.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

purest_intonation@att.net wrote:
> Greetings, community!
>
> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the principles of functional harmony and have been observing the developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to demonstrate it with a composition!
>
> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece, the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall be rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
>
> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde discovered and I have perfected.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> This email message is a notification to let you know that
>> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
>> group.
>>
>> File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
>> Uploaded by : purest_intonation@...<purest_intonation@...>
>> Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI
>>
>> You can access this file at the URL:
>> /makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
>>
>> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
>> Regards,
>>
>> purest_intonation@...<purest_intonation@...>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel <m.develde@...>

3/5/2011 7:15:02 AM

Oz, that isn't me.
I don't post here under any different name than my own.
And I agree it's out of tune crap. It isn't according to my theory at all.

If there was ever clearly trolling on this list than that post is it.
I'm not responding to it.

-Marcel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Purity of pure CRAP more like it. No one is buying your act Marcel.
>
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> â© â© â©
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> purest_intonation@... wrote:
> > Greetings, community!
> >
> > Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the principles of functional harmony and have been observing the developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to demonstrate it with a composition!
> >
> > This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece, the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall be rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
> >
> > I will be posting more compositions in short order which will hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde discovered and I have perfected.
> >
> > Enjoy!
> >
> > --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> >> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> >> group.
> >>
> >> File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> >> Uploaded by : purest_intonation@<purest_intonation@>
> >> Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI
> >>
> >> You can access this file at the URL:
> >> /makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> >>
> >> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> purest_intonation@<purest_intonation@>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

3/5/2011 7:20:06 AM

To me it sounds poor, not pure, Mr. Gilbert and Sullivan. Both in
quality of tuning and quality of composition. Even works of G & S
have more quality, and you can learn from it something about
functional harmony.

Maybe you should change the name to "Etude of Poority #1".

Daniel Forró

> purest_intonation@... wrote:
>> Greetings, community!
>>
>> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here
>> and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who
>> has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many
>> years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be
>> wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the
>> principles of functional harmony and have been observing the
>> developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and
>> chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been
>> studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have
>> attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare
>> say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather
>> than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to
>> demonstrate it with a composition!
>>
>> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in>> the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in
>> tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional
>> Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully
>> applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr.
>> DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63
>> times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have
>> rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq
>> and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering
>> job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in
>> time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously
>> fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his
>> monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio
>> posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece,
>> the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall
>> be rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
>>
>> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will
>> hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde
>> discovered and I have perfected.
>>
>> Enjoy!
>>
>> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/5/2011 7:42:01 AM

It is someone trying to make fun of Marcel. Marcel has posted an original composition of his, and it was actually a pretty nice ambient piece of shifting Just sonorities, much better than this drivel.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> To me it sounds poor, not pure, Mr. Gilbert and Sullivan. Both in
> quality of tuning and quality of composition. Even works of G & S
> have more quality, and you can learn from it something about
> functional harmony.
>
> Maybe you should change the name to "Etude of Poority #1".
>
> Daniel Forró
>
>
> > purest_intonation@... wrote:
> >> Greetings, community!
> >>
> >> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here
> >> and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who
> >> has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many
> >> years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be
> >> wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the
> >> principles of functional harmony and have been observing the
> >> developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and
> >> chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been
> >> studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have
> >> attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare
> >> say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather
> >> than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to
> >> demonstrate it with a composition!
> >>
> >> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in
> >> the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in
> >> tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional
> >> Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully
> >> applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr.
> >> DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63
> >> times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have
> >> rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq
> >> and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering
> >> job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in
> >> time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously
> >> fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his
> >> monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio
> >> posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece,
> >> the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall
> >> be rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
> >>
> >> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will
> >> hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde
> >> discovered and I have perfected.
> >>
> >> Enjoy!
> >>
> >> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/5/2011 12:33:15 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Marcel/Drei_Equale_2&3_JI_(20110305_MdV).pdf
Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@...>
Description : PDF with score and JI ratios of Drei Equale no2 and no3

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Marcel/Drei_Equale_2%263_JI_%2820110305_MdV%29.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

mdevelde <m.develde@...>

🔗Marcel <m.develde@...>

3/5/2011 12:41:57 PM

Here the JI tuning of Drei Equale no2 and no3 in an easy to read score.

I uploaded it for Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan but all who are interested should have a look.
No2 is fairly standard, but no3 really gets at the good stuff.

I'm writing a text file now with explanations on the tuning of every chord.
Will upload that later.

Will also make and upload midi files and audio renderings.
Right now I have not heard the tuning in the pdf yet. I have done it purely on theory.

-Marcel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Marcel/Drei_Equale_2&3_JI_(20110305_MdV).pdf
> Uploaded by : mdevelde <m.develde@...>
> Description : PDF with score and JI ratios of Drei Equale no2 and no3
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/Marcel/Drei_Equale_2%263_JI_%2820110305_MdV%29.pdf
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> mdevelde <m.develde@...>
>

🔗Cornell III, Howard M <howard.m.cornell.iii@...>

3/7/2011 8:23:40 AM

Perhaps these are Marcel's alter-egos...

From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cityoftheasleep
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 11:42 PM
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: [MMM] Re: New file uploaded to MakeMicroMusic

Are you f***ing kidding me.

First Lobawad, now this.

Marcel on his own was bad enough, but this slew of pseudonymous soap-opera nonsense trying to get his goat is too much. HE FEEDS ON THIS S**T, PEOPLE! THIS ISN'T HELPING!

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com<mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, "purest_intonation@..." <purest_intonation@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings, community!
>
> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the principles of functional harmony and have been observing the developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to demonstrate it with a composition!
>
> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr. DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63 times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece, the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall be rendere! d silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
>
> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde discovered and I have perfected.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com<mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com<mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > group.
> >
> > File : /True JI Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> > Uploaded by : purest_intonation@ <purest_intonation@>
> > Description : The first piece ever composed in TRUE JI
> >
> > You can access this file at the URL:
> > /makemicromusic/files/True%20JI%20Music/Etudeofpurity1.mp3
> >
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > Regards,
> >
> > purest_intonation@ <purest_intonation@>
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/7/2011 9:42:25 AM

I fourth/fifth, or whatever, this sentiment.

This is garbage. This is to garbage what garbage is to junk food. Which is
to say mixing equal parts drool and diarrhea and drinking are much more
enjoyable than listening to this.
When I heard the horrible unvelocity-sensitive cheezy piano sound doing
'relaxing' muzak mall music, I just listened to about 3 seconds, winced,
vomited, and then moved on after quickly turning it off.

But more to the point, it's Marcel or someone posing as Marcel pulling our
legs. The use of caps (i.e. TRUE JI) is utterly Marcel.

AKJ

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:

> To me it sounds poor, not pure, Mr. Gilbert and Sullivan. Both in
> quality of tuning and quality of composition. Even works of G & S
> have more quality, and you can learn from it something about
> functional harmony.
>
> Maybe you should change the name to "Etude of Poority #1".
>
> Daniel Forró
>
>
> > purest_intonation@... wrote:
> >> Greetings, community!
> >>
> >> Let me introduce myself. I have been a long-time observer here
> >> and on the tuning List as well. I am a professional composer who
> >> has been intrested in the study of Just Intonation for many
> >> years. I have found traditional theories of Just Intonation to be
> >> wholly unsatisfactory for my compositional needs and the
> >> principles of functional harmony and have been observing the
> >> developments of Mr. Marcel DeVelde with a mixture of awe and
> >> chagrin. I know he is not well-respected here but I have been
> >> studying his retunings of the Drei Equale closely and I have
> >> attained a great understanding from his methods. In fact I dare
> >> say I understand his own theory better than he does, and rather
> >> than prove it by retuning some old piece, I am going to
> >> demonstrate it with a composition!
> >>
> >> This piece, "Etude of Purity #1", is the first piece of music in
> >> the history of Western music that has been written perfectly in
> >> tune with the principles of True Just Intonation and Functional
> >> Harmony. It is a revolution and a revelation. I have faithfully
> >> applied and perfected the principles first discovered by Mr.
> >> DeVelde, and have checked and re-checked the tuning exactly 63
> >> times to be absolutely SURE there can be no mistakes. I have
> >> rendered my composition with the best available software (Pianoteq
> >> and Lexicon PCM Native Reverb) and had a professional mastering
> >> job done by a studio whom I sadly cannot name at this point in
> >> time pending royalty negotiations. I am certain the notoriously
> >> fastidious Mr. DeVelde will find its quality surpassing on his
> >> monitors which have revealed the deficiencies of all other audio
> >> posted here. I am equally certain that upon hearing this piece,
> >> the skeptics who have so long mocked and derided Mr. DeVelde shall
> >> be rendered silent, and will hence forth show him the due respect!
> >>
> >> I will be posting more compositions in short order which will
> >> hasten the revolution of musical theory that Mr. DeVelde
> >> discovered and I have perfected.
> >>
> >> Enjoy!
> >>
> >> --Dr. Gilbert S. Sullivan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

3/7/2011 9:58:03 AM

Dr Gilbert Sullivan? Dare I ask if there are any links proving his doctorat, university placement, or anything related. If not, it could very well just be Marcel incognito.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/7/2011 10:10:23 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:

> But more to the point, it's Marcel or someone posing as Marcel pulling our
> legs. The use of caps (i.e. TRUE JI) is utterly Marcel.

Dr. Sullivan is obviously not Marcel, but he is pulling legs, and no ones harder than Marcel's. I wonder if he could be induced to work on a new Savoy opera instead.

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

3/7/2011 10:25:03 AM

Hey Gene,

> wonder if he could be induced to work on a new Savoy opera instead.

Wow, good idea. We haven't had a good G&S opera for a long time. All they need to do is follow Anna Russell's formula and add a pinch of non-12! Wow!

OK, for those of you too young to know about Saint Anna:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yif-5xBbxd4

And for those of you who don't have time for opera in the first place:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vNReqUGtsc&feature=related

Rick

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/8/2011 2:04:37 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Lobawad/GodzillaExample.mp3
Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
Description : Example of "chord progressions" in "godzilla temperment"

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/GodzillaExample.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/8/2011 2:41:43 AM

Realizing how few audio examples of specifically "regular temperament paradigm" music there are, I made a little "godzilla temperament" example.

/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/GodzillaExample.mp3

The point here is to demonstrate conceptual distinctions between "temperaments" and "tunings". Obviously (to real musicians at least) there is no difference between "concept" and "practice", both are simply avatars of a higher thing altogether.

Anyway, the first section of this example is, in a way, a I-IV7-V7-V7/V7-V7-I. Just "in a way".

Let's reword the root movement of "I-ii-V-I" in terms of generators and periods. That would be, in a meantone temperament,
I-Generator*Generator(modulo Period)- Generator- I.

Now, in the regular temperaments which have been the primary focus of the Tuning List for years, the generator and period may be quite different from the tempered fifth and pure octave of the meantone temperaments with which we are familiar. So, what kinds of things happen if, rather than thinking of root movement in terms of diatonic steps, we think of it in terms of generator and period?

After all, the mixed tuning heritage of Western harmonic music, Pythagorean and Meantone, creates a situation in which it is difficult to distinguish between scalar identity and generator/period identity. The root movement of V, the principle structural unit of common practice music, is one and the same as "generator".

I am not saying that root movement and generator/period movement are "one". That's the mistake Marcel is making, and it is easy as pie to use irregular tunings and yet have clear harmonic movement, so the idea is easily disproven.

We're just doing something which is on one hand simply a "what if" thing, and on the other hand, a quick way to incorporate characteristic temperings-out. I-vi-ii-V-I in meantone for example demonstrates the tempering out of 81/80.

To make a long story short (gotta run), in the example posted, the first section is a kind of "I-IV7-V7-V7/V7-V7-I".

Spelled in generators and periods of a non-meantone temperament, though.

I= I
IV = Period complement of Generator
V = Generator
V/V =Generator*Generator modulo Period
V = Generator
I= I

simple, really.

Hopefully this example will help demonstrate how radically different Godzilla temperament actually is from "19tET", more later if anyone is interested.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Lobawad/GodzillaExample.mp3
> Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
> Description : Example of "chord progressions" in "godzilla temperment"
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/GodzillaExample.mp3
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> lobawad <lobawad@...>
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/8/2011 10:22:02 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
> /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/GodzillaExample.mp3

A more extended piece in godzilla would be welcome if you feel so inspired.

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/8/2011 10:33:58 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/GodzillaExample.mp3
>
> A more extended piece in godzilla would be welcome if you feel so inspired.
>

Just grabbing a second here (X-files and rigging up my analogs for... cough...ambient soundscape work), I'll get to arguing with Carl later, and responding to your post on commas.

Yes I'm considering whether to go with "Godzilla", I like how the gruesomely wrong fake major third is way smoother in context than it has any right to be, or a burlier temperament. Gotta jet for the moment

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/9/2011 2:44:05 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /jlsmith/Another Aire, for Lute.mp3
Uploaded by : jsmith9624@... <jsmith9624@...>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/jlsmith/Another%20Aire%2C%20for%20Lute.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,

jsmith9624@... <jsmith9624@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/17/2011 12:48:22 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
Description : Serialism in Op de Coul's c-10edo

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/17/2011 1:04:38 PM

A bit of strict serialism in Manuel Op de Coul's differentially-coherent approximation of 10 equal divisions of the octave. This is what I'd call a windchime tuning, there's something of the no-wrong-notes feel to it, but not because it is sweet throughout, rather, because it is a bit metallic and neither/both consonant/dissonant throughout (referring to isolated intervals context being at least as important of course).

The serialism is strict. There's a slight relaxation- immediate repeats in the same voice are allowed. This is basically a way to break sustatined tones, not least because sustains sound like ass with samples.

So if the row is apple, orange, fig, potato, it is cool to go apple, orange, fig, fig, fig, potato.

This relaxation is more than balanced by a heavy additional restriction: only P, R, I, RI. No transposition of the row! Instead of transposition, there is another technique of permutation, but I won't get into it unless someone else is interested in (heartfelt) serial writing as well.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
> Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
> Description : Serialism in Op de Coul's c-10edo
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> lobawad <lobawad@...>
>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

3/17/2011 1:46:07 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> A bit of strict serialism in Manuel Op de Coul's differentially-coherent approximation of
> 10 equal divisions of the octave. This is what I'd call a windchime tuning, there's
> something of the no-wrong-notes feel to it, but not because it is sweet throughout,
> rather, because it is a bit metallic and neither/both consonant/dissonant throughout
> (referring to isolated intervals context being at least as important of course).

I think 8-EDO strikes me the same way. "Asonant". I like that.

-Igs

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

3/17/2011 2:13:36 PM

Serialism is for the weak.

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/17/2011 10:09:39 PM

I like this example...thanks for sharing!

I think serialism is a concept that bears expansion---no reason not to
consider serialism where you can have repeated notes as part of the
row---for instance, in the context of 11-edo, having a 33 note row where
notes can be appear anyplace twice again (including of course next to each
other) before the end of the series, or even structures that always show up
next to each other, like little "neumatic motifs".

You mentioned, rightly so, a certain kinship between serial procedure and
more ancient principles like change-ringing.

Also, why not consider a row from a higher level, where you can work with
serial ordering of motifs instead of individual notes? This would probably
do a great deal to lend a more traditional cohesion to things....also, doing
this for rhythm in an integral serial setting would allow for avoiding too
much crazy syncpoation where it might be unwanted or unwarranted, etc.

Of course, Stravinsky showed the utility of rows for shorter patterns,
including diatonic patterns.

Thanks again, good stuff. I'll try to post my own example when I get the
time....

AKJ

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 3:04 PM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:

> A bit of strict serialism in Manuel Op de Coul's differentially-coherent
> approximation of 10 equal divisions of the octave. This is what I'd call a
> windchime tuning, there's something of the no-wrong-notes feel to it, but
> not because it is sweet throughout, rather, because it is a bit metallic and
> neither/both consonant/dissonant throughout (referring to isolated intervals
> context being at least as important of course).
>
> The serialism is strict. There's a slight relaxation- immediate repeats in
> the same voice are allowed. This is basically a way to break sustatined
> tones, not least because sustains sound like ass with samples.
>
> So if the row is apple, orange, fig, potato, it is cool to go apple,
> orange, fig, fig, fig, potato.
>
> This relaxation is more than balanced by a heavy additional restriction:
> only P, R, I, RI. No transposition of the row! Instead of transposition,
> there is another technique of permutation, but I won't get into it unless
> someone else is interested in (heartfelt) serial writing as well.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.comwrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > group.
> >
> > File : /Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
> > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@...>
> > Description : Serialism in Op de Coul's c-10edo
> >
> > You can access this file at the URL:
> >
> /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
> >
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > Regards,
> >
> > lobawad <lobawad@...>
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

3/17/2011 10:34:09 PM

On Mar 18, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
>
> Also, why not consider a row from a higher level, where you can
> work with
> serial ordering of motifs instead of individual notes?

Exactly this is my attitude, I combine melodic cells which each has
its own character and together they make 12tone row.

Another possible attitude I use often is to combine 4 triads (they
can be even so traditional as major and minor), or 3 tetrads to get
12tone row.

And last not least I construct 12tone rows where more important are
intervals. This lends to each row or its segment specific character.

> This would probably
> do a great deal to lend a more traditional cohesion to things....

I would call it "more hierarchy".
>
> Of course, Stravinsky showed the utility of rows for shorter patterns,
> including diatonic patterns.

Right, that's a way. Also Luigi Dallapiccola...

Daniel Forro

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

3/18/2011 12:15:48 AM

BTW, I know each of you has enough of all those catastrophic news from Japan, and I deeply apology for this message.

Right now it's one week from that terrible disaster, I'm sure you all have seen it. Except the places erased from maps and damaged in different extent, and rather difficult situation of all survivors and evacuated, most of Japan was intact and life goes almost normal way. I live here and we don't die from hunger and cold on the roof of our destroyed house. Fortunately. This time we had good luck, despite almost 600 smaller earthquakes (grade 4 to 6) after the biggest hit. So don't trust to media in your countries. I say they all exaggerate if not even lie. It's virtual world, far from the reality. Some circles are very happy to see potential problem in atomic plant. We live, and do as much as we can to help.

There's no help to many, and hardly any chance somebody survived there. Now there's a lot of survivors waiting for our help. They deserve it. They are brave, used to catastrophes and well trained for them, but nobody expected such level of destruction.

Japanese government will not ask help from the abroad probably, not because they are so proud of themselves, or they feel superior. Explanation is more simple - part of their mentality is not to bother anybody with their own troubles, they are so humble, so polite, so considerate. So I will talk for them. If you can send any financial aid to some reliable charity account for Japan, do it please. Each single USD will be used, you can be sure. Here government and local offices work well. This is not Africa (sorry African members here!). Nobody will steal the aid.

> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Japanese government will not ask help from the abroad probably, not
>> because they are so proud of themselves, or they feel superior.
>> Explanation is more simple - part of their mentality is not to bother
>> anybody with their own troubles, they are so humble, so polite, so
>> considerate. So I will talk for them. If you can send any financial
>> aid to some reliable charity account for Japan, do it please. Each
>> single USD will be used, you can be sure. Here government and local
>> offices work well. This is not Africa (sorry African members here!).
>> Nobody will steal the aid.
>
> Can you recommend an organization that you think will route the funds
> correctly? After seeing what happened down in Haiti, I don't want to
> deal with anything remotely resembling the Red Cross anymore.
>
> -Mike

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

3/18/2011 1:11:00 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> Can you recommend an organization that you think will route the funds
> correctly? After seeing what happened down in Haiti, I don't want to
> deal with anything remotely resembling the Red Cross anymore.

This is so sad to hear, Mike. I know you and I have corresponded a bit about your Haiti experience - do you think at least some of it was the untenable confluence of circumstances of Haiti itself? I'd like to hope so.

Anyway, I had also mentioned I had a former student who was the International Press Relations person for OXFAM down there, and she's finished up her time and is now in Europe. I'm going to drop her a line and see if she has any good recommends, and I'll post back here with any results.

I hope we all have big enough hearts to put up with a small amount of non-micro stuff, for Daniel's sake, and for all those affected.

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

3/18/2011 2:53:37 AM

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 4:11 AM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> > Can you recommend an organization that you think will route the funds
> > correctly? After seeing what happened down in Haiti, I don't want to
> > deal with anything remotely resembling the Red Cross anymore.
>
> This is so sad to hear, Mike. I know you and I have corresponded a bit about your Haiti experience - do you think at least some of it was the untenable confluence of circumstances of Haiti itself? I'd like to hope so.

I don't want to hijack Daniel's thread, as this is supposed to be
about Japan, not Haiti. But I guess I should provide some
clarification about my earlier comment, being as the Red Cross has
another "donate for Japan!" campaign out, and here I am bashing the
Red Cross. I learned something about how all of this "disaster relief"
funding works while I was down in Haiti. It's probably relevant here
for anyone who wants to donate money so that they can get some insight
into how this all works. I hope we can allow for a brief digression so
that I can relate my experiences and allow everyone to make more
informed decisions about where they donate to.

Although this is a fact of life that most Haitian citizens take for
granted, the city is almost as messed up as it was the day the
earthquake happened. It's completely in ruins. There's no rebuilding,
people are still living in tents. As of last November, there were no
cranes and bulldozers putting anything up, no construction at all.
Driving around PAP at night was like driving around San Fran or Miami
600 years from now. Like you're driving through a 21st century Machu
Picchu or something.

I went to Port Au Prince twice, the second time staying for a month
and a half and serving as the IT director of Bernard Mevs hospital.
The hospital I worked at was and still is the most technologically
advanced hospital in Haiti. And that's not saying much. We had a
$600,000 telemedicine room that Cisco donated to us (which was never
used once, and could have been replaced with a laptop and Skype), but
we didn't have surgical meshes. We had a little telemedicine robot
that could run around and do stuff, but we didn't have diapers for the
babies. We had one broken ECG and we had to try and fix it in an
emergency situation with, I shit you not, guitar strings for
conductive material and duct tape. At one point, the ECG fell and
broke to pieces, and we put it back together to find that one of the
plastic pins had been discarded in the trash - one of the nurses put
on two pairs of gloves and went into a contaminated red biohazard
trash can to find it. I'm not going to tell you what was written on
top of the trash can. We also had no x-ray for most of my stay.

And this is the best hospital in the country. Despite its problems, it
was functional. The General Hospital, on the other hand, is best
described as being a place worse than hell. I will spare you the
specifics of what went down there and the publically owned labor
hospital. The Haitian doctors working there had no salary and were
basically working for free. Then they stopped working, because they
were also living in tents and couldn't afford to work for free. Then
they stopped taking American volunteers because of some Haitian pride
thing, which as Jon pointed out is yet another complexity going on
with all of this. So it just sucks all around.

So not only is construction down there not happening, but the state of
Haiti's medical care is that the most technologically advanced
hospital in it has no diapers, one McGyver'd and busted single-lead
ECG, no x-ray, and a cholera epidemic to deal with. Meanwhile, the
publically owned General Hospital has no money to pay their doctors.

But this is even with the Red Cross and the US's massively "pledged"
donation figures helping out, right? Well hold right there!
http://www.jacksonadvocateonline.com/?p=1500
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/12/eveningnews/main6477611.shtml
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/poor-governance-to-blame-for-haiti-aid-quagmire-red-cross
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/29/world/main6909940.shtml
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/4/haiti-still-waiting-for-aid-pledged-by-us-others/
http://www.disasteraccountability.com/blog/2010/10/13/the-haiti-relief-trust-funds/
http://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6791:stalled-donations-for-haiti&catid=155:nonprofit-newswire&Itemid=986
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/10/117_74510.html

Keep mental track of those numbers - in the hundreds of millions to
the billions we're seeing donated between all of these groups. Well,
right before I left, at the end of November, the American Red Cross
finally came down and hooked us up with somewhere between $1-2 mil,
which was supposed to last us for the year - provided we can prove
that we'll be able to sustain ourselves after that. So we finally got
enough to keep us afloat for a year, but probably not enough to buy
the stuff we need. And this is under the stipulation that we can "be
sustainable" in a year (hint: nothing in Haiti will be sustainable in
a year unless you pump money into the economy down there RIGHT NOW),
so we have to start charging patients more and effectively deny care
to the poorest class, which defeats the whole purpose of emergency aid
relief to begin with. But I shouldn't complain, because the GH, which
is several orders of magnitude larger than our hospital, got a measly
$4 million over one year.

Insofar as emergency disaster aid relief care is supposed to be going
anywhere, it should be going to the GH. This place is several times
larger than us and is legally not allowed to turn patients away (this
place is hell on earth). I'd rather them have just given us nothing
and put all of the funds at the GH. Or merged the two hospitals
together. The GH needs more than $4 million for one year to get
running. 4 mil is nothing. This is THE hospital in Haiti. $4 mil is
about $300k a month, and there are hundreds and hundreds of patients
in this hospital (might have been into 1,000, wish I could remember
the exact number). They don't even have working power there, it goes
in and out.

So I don't know where in the hell the relief money is going if it isn't going to
- Funding medical care in Haitian medical hospitals
- Rebuilding anything at all
- Getting people out of the tent cities or even giving supplies to the
tent cities

Nobody down there has any idea where all of these supposed hundreds of
millions of dollars are going. All we knew is that it wasn't going to
us. And the news reports are finally starting to reflect the reality
down in the field, which is that there is no money coming.

The point: Apparently this is not a one-off incident with the Red
Cross. Down in the volunteer community it's pretty well known that
there is a disparity between the Red Cross's press releases and the
harsh reality that occurs in situations like these. They've been
criticized for sitting on funds like this time and time again, and I
hope they don't do the same thing here in Japan. So just like now I'm
talking about how they still haven't given funds properly to Haiti,
apparently when the Haiti earthquake hit they were criticized for
still not having given funds properly to aid in the Indian Ocean
tsunami before that. They will often claim that they're "saving it for
longer-term development," which is the stupidest possible strategy
that you could take in the face of disaster relief.

So that is why I asked Daniel if he knew where I could donate to. I am
only one person involved here, and I hope that I and the other
volunteers that I'd speak to about this are wrong, and that that money
that was donated is somehow being used productively. But at this
point, it is my personal preference to give funds directly to the
organizations that are doing work, instead of going through glorified
middlemen like the Red Cross.

If anyone has any other questions about Haiti let's please take it to
metatuning so that I don't detract from Daniel's efforts to raise
awareness about the situation in Japan over here.

-Mike

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/18/2011 8:22:38 AM

Hey Daniel,

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@tiscali.cz> wrote:

>
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> >
> > Also, why not consider a row from a higher level, where you can
> > work with
> > serial ordering of motifs instead of individual notes?
>
> Exactly this is my attitude, I combine melodic cells which each has
> its own character and together they make 12tone row.
>

I might have been clearer--I was talking about note groups of any size,
including possibly larger than 12 pitches, and there is plenty of repetition
allowed...for example, working with diatonic letters, I might have a list of
lists:

[ [a,b,c,], [d,e,f], [a,b,c], [g,e,c], [c,e,g,a], [f,e,d], [a,b,c,d],
[f,d,e,c], [a,b], [c] ]

I might shuffle the order of these motifs to get different serial
permutations, but preserve their local order, i.e. [f,d,e,c] will always be
[f,d,e,c] but it might appear first in the larger list....of course, one
could then "flatten" the list after such a procedure, and do the usual I, R,
and RI operations, as well as transposition, etc.

The key idea is that 'shuffling' to get different permutations happens at a
larger list level, and the smaller lists are what is getting shuffled, so
their internal order is preserved. And a list can have a single element.

Another, simpler extension of serial thinking is to shuffle a list that has
plenty of repeated notes, e.g. [a,b,a,c,b,c,d,f,d,d,g,a,e,f,e] viewed as an
abstract set. So one possible permutation would be: [f, a, g, c, c, b, d, e,
d, d, e, b, a, f, a]

Hope this makes it clear what I meant.....

AKJ

>
> Another possible attitude I use often is to combine 4 triads (they
> can be even so traditional as major and minor), or 3 tetrads to get
> 12tone row.
>
> And last not least I construct 12tone rows where more important are
> intervals. This lends to each row or its segment specific character.
>
> > This would probably
> > do a great deal to lend a more traditional cohesion to things....
>
> I would call it "more hierarchy".
> >
> > Of course, Stravinsky showed the utility of rows for shorter patterns,
> > including diatonic patterns.
>
> Right, that's a way. Also Luigi Dallapiccola...
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/18/2011 8:30:28 AM

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 4:13 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

> Serialism is for the weak.
>
>
Tonality diamonds are for the weak...

;)

But seriously, I don't think any technique in of itself can be critiqued.
The results count, and of course, not every aesthetic turns everyone on
equally.

There was certainly an over-dependence on serialism in the 1950s (and
onwards) academic culture so that a lot of over-heady dull music came
cranking out of conservatories for decades and decades.

I don't see how it's any different than any other trend in music history.
Isorhythm certainly produce some musical masterpieces in the late middle
ages, and it's a similar way of thinking. Figured bass thought dominated
baroque thought in music, and lots of music of widely varying quality came
out of that, too.

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/18/2011 8:33:23 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>

> I hope we all have big enough hearts to put up with a small amount of non-micro stuff, for Daniel's sake, and for all those affected.

Here's a guy saying you shouldn't earmark donations like that:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/03/why-you-shouldnt-donate-money-to-japan/72525/

Here's another:

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/03/14/dont-donate-money-to-japan/

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/18/2011 9:31:46 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /djtrancendance/microjam PC keyboard as a microtonal piano program.zip
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Microjam: lets you use your PC keyboard as a microtonal piano

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/microjam%20PC%20keyboard%20as%20a%20microtonal%20piano%20program.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

3/18/2011 9:45:47 PM

Quite possibly the simplest piano you'll ever play...a program for Windows that lets you use your PC Keyboard as a mini-piano.

It uses your PC keyboard to play notes in the "baby scale" of
1/1 9/8 6/5 3/2 8/5 2/1

The keys used for notes are
a,s,d,f,g,h,j,k,l, ; (first and second octaves)
q,w,e,r,t,y,u,i,o,p (third and fourth octaves)

The easy-going pentatonic nature of the scale is made to be so easy to handle that even a baby can jam on random notes without sounding too unmusical...but I've found it's just flat out fun for random improvisation.

To install the program, just run setup.exe. Then the program will show up on your start menu under the PO folder in the start menu.
BTW, no, "PO" does not have any meaning, I just put those random initials in as I didn't want Microsoft registering my first and last name when I installed Visual Studio Express. :-D

----------------------------
I may eventually extend this program to do adaptive JI on larger scales...combination my javascript "notes to closest x limit JI chord" program with this and allowing you to select how much "commatic drift" you are willing to allow to get lower limit chords using a slider-bar user interface element. Depends how much interest I get about this program.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

3/18/2011 9:51:58 PM

Sorry, I forgot to link to the program...

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/microjam%20PC%20keyboard%20as%20a%20microtonal%20piano%20program.zip

Quite possibly the simplest piano you'll ever play...a program for Windows that lets you use your PC Keyboard as a mini-piano.

It uses your PC keyboard to play notes in the "baby scale" of

1/1 9/8 6/5 3/2 8/5 2/1

The keys used for notes are

a,s,d,f,g,h,j,k,l, ; (first and second octaves)

q,w,e,r,t,y,u,i,o,p (third and fourth octaves)

To install the program, just run setup.exe. Then the program will show up on your start menu under the PO folder in the start menu.

BTW, no, "PO" does not have any meaning, I just put those random initials in as I didn't want Microsoft registering my first and last name when I installed Visual Studio Express. :-D

----------------------------

I may eventually extend this program to do adaptive JI on larger scales...combination my javascript "notes to closest x limit JI chord" program with this and allowing you to select how much "commatic drift" you are willing to allow to get lower limit chords using a slider-bar user interface element. Depends how much interest I get about this program.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

3/18/2011 9:52:07 PM

Sorry, I forgot to link to the program...

/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/microjam%20PC%20keyboard%20as%20a%20microtonal%20piano%20program.zip

Quite possibly the simplest piano you'll ever play...a program for Windows that lets you use your PC Keyboard as a mini-piano.

It uses your PC keyboard to play notes in the "baby scale" of

1/1 9/8 6/5 3/2 8/5 2/1

The keys used for notes are

a,s,d,f,g,h,j,k,l, ; (first and second octaves)

q,w,e,r,t,y,u,i,o,p (third and fourth octaves)

To install the program, just run setup.exe. Then the program will show up on your start menu under the PO folder in the start menu.

BTW, no, "PO" does not have any meaning, I just put those random initials in as I didn't want Microsoft registering my first and last name when I installed Visual Studio Express. :-D

----------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/19/2011 12:26:33 AM

You're welcome, glad you liked it.

I think serialism bears expansion- or even being used at all- only if
there is a specific musical intent. Of course experimenting, or even
just farting around, is fine, why not. But it can be an expensive
approach in terms of time.

Though I doubt I will be able to get my point across in the face of
nearly a century of mass misconception, I must say that it is a big
mistake to think of serialism as "cerebral". Provisionally accepting the
false dichotomy of "cerebral" and "corporeal" (patently a contiuum is
more the reality), creating, performing and listening to serialism are
crappy "cerebral" exercises. There is no intellectual challenge to
stringing a bunch of stuff together according to some simple rules, no
real effort in simply hitting tones, and no reward in picking out a
pattern that was designed not to be percieved as a pattern but as a way
to free other patterns.

As "math", serialism is pataphysical combinatorics- as a tool wielded
with musical intent, it is just dandy for certain purposes.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>
wrote:
>
> I like this example...thanks for sharing!
>
> I think serialism is a concept that bears expansion---no reason not to
> consider serialism where you can have repeated notes as part of the
> row---for instance, in the context of 11-edo, having a 33 note row
where
> notes can be appear anyplace twice again (including of course next to
each
> other) before the end of the series, or even structures that always
show up
> next to each other, like little "neumatic motifs".
>
> You mentioned, rightly so, a certain kinship between serial procedure
and
> more ancient principles like change-ringing.
>
> Also, why not consider a row from a higher level, where you can work
with
> serial ordering of motifs instead of individual notes? This would
probably
> do a great deal to lend a more traditional cohesion to things....also,
doing
> this for rhythm in an integral serial setting would allow for avoiding
too
> much crazy syncpoation where it might be unwanted or unwarranted, etc.
>
> Of course, Stravinsky showed the utility of rows for shorter patterns,
> including diatonic patterns.
>
> Thanks again, good stuff. I'll try to post my own example when I get
the
> time....
>
> AKJ
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 3:04 PM, lobawad lobawad@... wrote:
>
> > A bit of strict serialism in Manuel Op de Coul's
differentially-coherent
> > approximation of 10 equal divisions of the octave. This is what I'd
call a
> > windchime tuning, there's something of the no-wrong-notes feel to
it, but
> > not because it is sweet throughout, rather, because it is a bit
metallic and
> > neither/both consonant/dissonant throughout (referring to isolated
intervals
> > context being at least as important of course).
> >
> > The serialism is strict. There's a slight relaxation- immediate
repeats in
> > the same voice are allowed. This is basically a way to break
sustatined
> > tones, not least because sustains sound like ass with samples.
> >
> > So if the row is apple, orange, fig, potato, it is cool to go apple,
> > orange, fig, fig, fig, potato.
> >
> > This relaxation is more than balanced by a heavy additional
restriction:
> > only P, R, I, RI. No transposition of the row! Instead of
transposition,
> > there is another technique of permutation, but I won't get into it
unless
> > someone else is interested in (heartfelt) serial writing as well.
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@...:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > > group.
> > >
> > > File : /Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
> > > Uploaded by : lobawad lobawad@
> > > Description : Serialism in Op de Coul's c-10edo
> > >
> > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > >
> >
/makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/AsonantSerial\
ism.mp3
> > >
> > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > >
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > lobawad lobawad@
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/19/2011 2:50:23 PM

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 2:26 AM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:

> You're welcome, glad you liked it.
>
> I think serialism bears expansion- or even being used at all- only if
> there is a specific musical intent. Of course experimenting, or even
> just farting around, is fine, why not. But it can be an expensive
> approach in terms of time.
>

I agree. Having not ever employed serialism in my own compostions, but used
other procedural ways of generating base material, I can see that it has its
disadvantages.

That said, I've admired the work of many folks who have used it quite a bit,
mostly in a freely modified form. Chris Bailey has done some great stuff
with it.

I think farting around with any technique is all part of being in the
sandbox, and everything that gives one new sounds and resources, even if
they aren't used in a hardcore way in the final product, is worthy of
exploring.

The talk of 11-, 31-edo and other things along with serialism makes me want
to dabble; even if it doesn't produce what I would consider a worthy 'final
product'...

>
> Though I doubt I will be able to get my point across in the face of
> nearly a century of mass misconception, I must say that it is a big
> mistake to think of serialism as "cerebral". Provisionally accepting the
> false dichotomy of "cerebral" and "corporeal" (patently a contiuum is
> more the reality), creating, performing and listening to serialism are
> crappy "cerebral" exercises. There is no intellectual challenge to
> stringing a bunch of stuff together according to some simple rules, no
> real effort in simply hitting tones, and no reward in picking out a
> pattern that was designed not to be percieved as a pattern but as a way
> to free other patterns.
>
>
Yup, you're Cameron alright! (if the music you posted hasn't already clued
us in)

> As "math", serialism is pataphysical combinatorics- as a tool wielded
> with musical intent, it is just dandy for certain purposes.
>
>
Absolutely, along with all sorts of other exploratory tools....

AKJ

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

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🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/20/2011 12:45:48 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /Igliashon Jones/Subminor Comparison.mp3
Uploaded by : cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
Description : Alternating Just 6:7:9 w/EDOs 9, 14, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, and 24

You can access this file at the URL:
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🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

3/20/2011 12:53:45 PM

Here's a comparison of alternating Just and tempered 6:7:9 triads. The order goes:
JI, 9, JI, 14, JI, 17, JI, 19, JI, 21, JI, 22, JI, 23, JI, 24, JI

Incidentally, I'm going to retract my earlier assertion that 14 has good subminor triads. It is quite interesting to me that even though it has the best 7/6 approximation between 9 and 22, and its fifths are generally tolerable, it beats more strongly than any other version, even 23! Weirdly, it beats even more than 21, which has the SAME fifth and a worse 7/6...I wonder what lessons we can learn from this about tempering? Certainly that there is more to concordance than absolute or weighted error.

To my ears, 22 sounds the best, then 24, then 17, then 21, then 9, then 23, then 19, then 14. Not at all what I expected from looking at the relative error levels of each dyad in the chord.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> group.
>
> File : /Igliashon Jones/Subminor Comparison.mp3
> Uploaded by : cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
> Description : Alternating Just 6:7:9 w/EDOs 9, 14, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, and 24
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> /makemicromusic/files/Igliashon%20Jones/Subminor%20Comparison.mp3
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/20/2011 2:14:41 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

> To my ears, 22 sounds the best, then 24, then 17, then 21, then 9, then 23, then 19, then 14.

I thought 9 sucked like a cyclonic vacuum cleaner, yet it's got that superb 7/6 and the same cheeseball major third as 12.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/20/2011 2:31:14 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@> wrote:
>
> > To my ears, 22 sounds the best, then 24, then 17, then 21, then 9, then 23, then 19, then 14.
>
> I thought 9 sucked like a cyclonic vacuum cleaner, yet it's got that superb 7/6 and the same cheeseball major third as 12.

By the way, did you notice your ordering of the triads, 24, 23, 19, 14 was the same as the one I gave for the pieces as a whole?

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

3/20/2011 3:49:26 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /djtrancendance/mrgenehatingon14.mp3
Uploaded by : djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>
Description : Improvisation over 8 chords in 14TET

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🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/22/2011 2:27:52 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Here's a comparison of alternating Just and tempered 6:7:9 triads. The order goes:
> JI, 9, JI, 14, JI, 17, JI, 19, JI, 21, JI, 22, JI, 23, JI, 24, JI
>
> Incidentally, I'm going to retract my earlier assertion that 14 has good subminor triads. It is quite interesting to me that even though it has the best 7/6 approximation between 9 and 22, and its fifths are generally tolerable, it beats more strongly than any other version, even 23! Weirdly, it beats even more than 21, which has the SAME fifth and a worse 7/6...I wonder what lessons we can learn from this about tempering? Certainly that there is more to concordance than absolute or weighted error.
>
> To my ears, 22 sounds the best, then 24, then 17, then 21, then 9, then 23, then 19, then 14. Not at all what I expected from looking at the relative error levels of each dyad in the chord.
>
> -Igs

24, 17, and 21 don't sound like 7/6 to me.

I find that 17 and 21 sound like very dark minor thirds, not subminor thirds. They split the difference between 6/5 and 7/6. At this point I should mention that testing different intervals on innocent victims (say, whaddaya think of this?) has lead me to suspect that 13/11 and 14/11 are good descriptions of what expressive intonations of major and minor thirds in nominal 12-tET are. These are the intervals that stimulate responses like, yeah, that's really minor/major! Whereas going down or up, to about 7/6 or 9/7, invariably gets the whoa, that's blues/"ethnic" response.

24 offers a neutral interval, more related to a very large second I find. In more information-rich terms than those offered by the pseudo-scientific accuracy of using only cents, this proportion would be described as about 15:13. This tells us the nearest lowest coincident partials, presents the relative position in terms of lower partials (the mean of 8:7 and 7:6 in this case), and suggests "bearing plans" as well as compositional motions in terms of spectral voice-leading.

Put more briefly, it's a pretty sucky 7:6 but a very nice interval in its own right.

I think it's clear as to why close approximations to 7:6, such as that offered by 14, should look so good on paper and be so jarring when realized. If you check out the pattern of coincident partials in a pure 7:6, you'll find that it offers an interesting combination of coincidences within a pattern of strongly dissonant partial relationships, tending to ride quite a bit in critical band areas. So, by getting very close to 7:6, you lose the smoothing of the coincidences but keep the clanging of the dissonances. In combination with a doggy 9:7, 9:7 being an audible but not strong melding point in the first place, it's not suprising (in retrospect) that 14 offers a a clangorous sonority here.

By the way, have you inspected the "consonant interval of Avicenna"? At 196:169(256.6 cents) you can see that it is 14:13 stacked and pushing toward a "bad 7:6". But I find it to be the earliest documented interval which qualifies in my opinion as consonant-by means of-asonance. I'm curious as to what you think of it.

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

3/22/2011 6:58:47 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
> 24, 17, and 21 don't sound like 7/6 to me.
>
> I find that 17 and 21 sound like very dark minor thirds, not subminor thirds. They split
> the difference between 6/5 and 7/6.

I'm cc-ing this to Tuning. I really want to talk about this because it hurts my brain.

-Igs

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

3/23/2011 3:27:43 AM

Not bad at all, as far as serialism and 10-EDO approximation goes.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

lobawad wrote:
> A bit of strict serialism in Manuel Op de Coul's differentially-coherent approximation of 10 equal divisions of the octave. This is what I'd call a windchime tuning, there's something of the no-wrong-notes feel to it, but not because it is sweet throughout, rather, because it is a bit metallic and neither/both consonant/dissonant throughout (referring to isolated intervals context being at least as important of course).
>
> The serialism is strict. There's a slight relaxation- immediate repeats in the same voice are allowed. This is basically a way to break sustatined tones, not least because sustains sound like ass with samples.
>
> So if the row is apple, orange, fig, potato, it is cool to go apple, orange, fig, fig, fig, potato.
>
> This relaxation is more than balanced by a heavy additional restriction: only P, R, I, RI. No transposition of the row! Instead of transposition, there is another technique of permutation, but I won't get into it unless someone else is interested in (heartfelt) serial writing as well.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> This email message is a notification to let you know that
>> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
>> group.
>>
>> File : /Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
>> Uploaded by : lobawad<lobawad@...>
>> Description : Serialism in Op de Coul's c-10edo
>>
>> You can access this file at the URL:
>> /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/AsonantSerialism.mp3
>>
>> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
>> Regards,
>>
>> lobawad<lobawad@...>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

3/23/2011 4:55:33 PM

I am sincerely interested - could you explain the other technique of
permutation?

Thanks,

Chris

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 4:04 PM, lobawad <lobawad@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> This relaxation is more than balanced by a heavy additional restriction: only P, R, I, RI. No transposition of the row! Instead of transposition, there is another technique of permutation, but I won't get into it unless someone else is interested in (heartfelt) serial writing as well.

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/23/2011 5:45:27 PM

I've got to get to sleep so I'll try to write more tomorrow.

Basically, in serial music the horizontal and the vertical are supposed to be "as one". That's a positive thing about it, and it had much more influence on other musics than people realize (or maybe there was a huge amount of zeitgeist synchonicity, that's possible too).

So you've got this row c,d,e,f,g,a (for example)
It's a normal serial thing to present it "bunched up", ie,
you assume a unity of horizontal and vertical.
so it could be, in two voices:

violin: c,d,e
cello: f,g,a

in my personal version of serial music, one way a transformation of the row could take place would be like this:

violin: c.......d........e
cello: ....f.......g......a

now you see how the next iteration, the transformed row, could smoothly be: c,f,d,g,e,a

and extrapolate to things like P in one voice and R in the other, and so on.

it has to used with care, purpose and feeling otherwise it could be abused as an attempt to use unordered sets, which I personally don't think too much of.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I am sincerely interested - could you explain the other technique of
> permutation?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 4:04 PM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > This relaxation is more than balanced by a heavy additional restriction: only P, R, I, RI. No transposition of the row! Instead of transposition, there is another technique of permutation, but I won't get into it unless someone else is interested in (heartfelt) serial writing as well.
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

3/23/2011 6:10:55 PM

Isn't that a Milton Babbit school technique? I think I've done that sort of
thing then. It is a matter of treating time as elastic?

I have a couple serial pieces in the works I'd like to show you and Daniel
when I can so I can discuss them. The 11 edo class has got me thinking about
serialism again - (I've mentioned a few times now) and I haven't thought
about it seriously in decades and suddenly it seems much more flexible,
relevant, and useful then ever before. The reason is I have been lean
towards (at times) writing extreme chromatic contrapuntal music like Carl
Ruggles but there is no discernible organization to the process except my
ear - serialism can be made to do that and more. Man talk about taking a
long way around.

Chris

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 8:45 PM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:

>
>
> I've got to get to sleep so I'll try to write more tomorrow.
>
> Basically, in serial music the horizontal and the vertical are supposed to
> be "as one". That's a positive thing about it, and it had much more
> influence on other musics than people realize (or maybe there was a huge
> amount of zeitgeist synchonicity, that's possible too).
>
> So you've got this row c,d,e,f,g,a (for example)
> It's a normal serial thing to present it "bunched up", ie,
> you assume a unity of horizontal and vertical.
> so it could be, in two voices:
>
> violin: c,d,e
> cello: f,g,a
>
> in my personal version of serial music, one way a transformation of the row
> could take place would be like this:
>
> violin: c.......d........e
> cello: ....f.......g......a
>
> now you see how the next iteration, the transformed row, could smoothly be:
> c,f,d,g,e,a
>
> and extrapolate to things like P in one voice and R in the other, and so
> on.
>
> it has to used with care, purpose and feeling otherwise it could be abused
> as an attempt to use unordered sets, which I personally don't think too much
> of.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am sincerely interested - could you explain the other technique of
> > permutation?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 4:04 PM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > This relaxation is more than balanced by a heavy additional
> restriction: only P, R, I, RI. No transposition of the row! Instead of
> transposition, there is another technique of permutation, but I won't get
> into it unless someone else is interested in (heartfelt) serial writing as
> well.
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/23/2011 6:21:17 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Isn't that a Milton Babbit school technique? I think I've done that sort of
> thing then. It is a matter of treating time as elastic?

Could be a Babbit thing, I don't know- but I think Reti (student of Arnie) probably did it first. All I know of that is that Reti had transformation techniques, and it's such a simple thing that it's hard to imagine this wasn't one of them, .

>
> I have a couple serial pieces in the works I'd like to show you and Daniel
> when I can so I can discuss them.

That would be groovy.

The 11 edo class has got me thinking about
> serialism again - (I've mentioned a few times now) and I haven't thought
> about it seriously in decades and suddenly it seems much more flexible,
> relevant, and useful then ever before. The reason is I have been lean
> towards (at times) writing extreme chromatic contrapuntal music like Carl
> Ruggles but there is no discernible organization to the process except my
> ear - serialism can be made to do that and more. Man talk about taking a
> long way around.
>
> Chris

Serialism is like doing push-ups and jumping jacks for me. Good exercise, not something I'd do in a dance or fist fight. Some people wrote their "soul music" in serial:

http://www.georgeperle.net/

probably my favorite

and I suspect that Gubaidulina uses serial techniques, loosely? and microtonality, though I don't know if it is notated (never seen a score)

these are two 20th-century greats IMO.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

3/23/2011 6:29:00 PM

for people interested.

I rather like this actually

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzjzY3s3fXo

George Perle, String Quartet No 5 1960, revised 1967, Part One

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 9:21 PM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't that a Milton Babbit school technique? I think I've done that sort
> of
> > thing then. It is a matter of treating time as elastic?
>
> Could be a Babbit thing, I don't know- but I think Reti (student of Arnie)
> probably did it first. All I know of that is that Reti had transformation
> techniques, and it's such a simple thing that it's hard to imagine this
> wasn't one of them, .
>
> >
> > I have a couple serial pieces in the works I'd like to show you and
> Daniel
> > when I can so I can discuss them.
>
> That would be groovy.
>
>
>
>
> Serialism is like doing push-ups and jumping jacks for me. Good exercise,
> not something I'd do in a dance or fist fight. Some people wrote their "soul
> music" in serial:
>
> http://www.georgeperle.net/
>
> probably my favorite
>
> and I suspect that Gubaidulina uses serial techniques, loosely? and
> microtonality, though I don't know if it is notated (never seen a score)
>
> these are two 20th-century greats IMO.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

3/23/2011 7:14:25 PM

Call me more conservative than inventor himself, but I think this attitude to serial music is wrong, and I don't like Schonberg dodecaphony and spreading notes of 12tone row among more instruments, that mix of vertical and horizontal. I would not call it positive thing. Because doing this we destroy what's the most important in serial music, what's the basic principle - the row, series itself.

For me a series has sense only if it's recognizable as series. And the most important for recognizing it, for identity of the row, is the interval structure of the row. Used intervals and their directions. This makes one row easily distinguishable from the other. It gives to the row its shape and character.

We can invert intervals, or use retrograde, this will not change basic character too much. Bigger changes are: to make octave complements, to make tritone substitution or to use some subsets or special features of the row (melodic cells, symmetries and so) or take a row more freely as tone groups. Of course we can make chords from row. Also I don't see any problem with making rows which have less or more notes then 12. And rows can go over the range of one octave, and can be used so in the composition (which will allow to use certain notes only in certain octaves).

What you describe, can be called work with tone groups, and yes, there's a danger of getting almost random, and thus boring results. Nothing against it, but in my opinion it's far from pure serial work.

And when I say pure, I mean pure. I don't like even repetition of the same note, and octave transposition of individual note in the row. First case changes hierarchy and balance (more than using long sustained notes), second one changes interval structure of the row.

Daniel Forro

On Mar 24, 2011, at 9:45 AM, lobawad wrote:

> I've got to get to sleep so I'll try to write more tomorrow.
>
> Basically, in serial music the horizontal and the vertical are > supposed to be "as one". That's a positive thing about it, and it > had much more influence on other musics than people realize (or > maybe there was a huge amount of zeitgeist synchonicity, that's > possible too).
>
> So you've got this row c,d,e,f,g,a (for example)
> It's a normal serial thing to present it "bunched up", ie,
> you assume a unity of horizontal and vertical.
> so it could be, in two voices:
>
> violin: c,d,e
> cello: f,g,a
>
> in my personal version of serial music, one way a transformation of > the row could take place would be like this:
>
> violin: c.......d........e
> cello: ....f.......g......a
>
> now you see how the next iteration, the transformed row, could > smoothly be: c,f,d,g,e,a
>
> and extrapolate to things like P in one voice and R in the other, > and so on.
>
> it has to used with care, purpose and feeling otherwise it could be > abused as an attempt to use unordered sets, which I personally > don't think too much of.
>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/26/2011 7:28:21 AM

I know what you mean, but I disagree. I find that insisting on the row as an identity in itself means that what you actually wind up doing is establishing continuity through motif and intervallic palilogy, which are such powerful things that it is a shame to strap them down to insisting on the fixed identity of a row.

And the basic principle of the Schoenbergian approach is not really the row. It cannot be, for if it were, we would be forced to conclude that the guy was a bonehead, and our evidence would be what you have just presented: the Schoenbergian approach completely scuttles a realistic comprehension of the row.

What Schoenberg was after was a positive thing, the row was only a tool. The positive thing was not the destruction of tonality, which would be a negative thing of course, but the establishment of pan-tonality. All tones are equally "at the center". This is an impossibility as you have mentioned before. Nevertheless it is a positive ideal, as blue-sky hippy and new-age as it may be (specifically Swedengborgian, as described by Schoenberg himself).

Obviously we can choose any interpretation of the row we'd like, and really, if we lay aside idealistic concepts and concentrate on what can be more realistically implemented, of course you're right: the positive goal of row identity is far more realistic than the goal of "pantonality".

This discussion orginated in Aaron's passing remark that the highly dissonant interval systems such as 11 and 13 equal divisions of the octave might have met approval by Schoenberg. This estimation is based on a simple failure to understand the difference between atonality and pantonality. Of course the failure is understandable, as pantonality is an ideal perhaps never achieved or even achievable, like "totally peaceful total anacrchy, dude", or some such ideal.

Nevertheless we can propose appropriate alternative interval systems for implementing Schoenbergian ideals- I chose a highly inharmonic, but not harshly dissonant system of differentially-coherent tones, every tone being an octave of a first-order difference tone between two other tones in the system, that is, a kind of "self-referential" tuning. Surely this is a better representation of the Pleroma than either 12-tET or a system heavily unbalanced toward discord, and even in a brief and quickly-concocted example, I think a hint of the potential for new work based on the Schoenbergian ideals is evident.

As you know, "Schoenbergian" and "serial" are not synonyms, and I imagine we're in agreement that things that might be suited for Schoenbergian serialism might very well be unsuited for other kinds of serialism, and vice versa.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> Call me more conservative than inventor himself, but I think this
> attitude to serial music is wrong, and I don't like Schonberg
> dodecaphony and spreading notes of 12tone row among more instruments,
> that mix of vertical and horizontal. I would not call it positive
> thing. Because doing this we destroy what's the most important in
> serial music, what's the basic principle - the row, series itself.
>
> For me a series has sense only if it's recognizable as series. And
> the most important for recognizing it, for identity of the row, is
> the interval structure of the row. Used intervals and their
> directions. This makes one row easily distinguishable from the other.
> It gives to the row its shape and character.
>
> We can invert intervals, or use retrograde, this will not change
> basic character too much. Bigger changes are: to make octave
> complements, to make tritone substitution or to use some subsets or
> special features of the row (melodic cells, symmetries and so) or
> take a row more freely as tone groups. Of course we can make chords
> from row. Also I don't see any problem with making rows which have
> less or more notes then 12. And rows can go over the range of one
> octave, and can be used so in the composition (which will allow to
> use certain notes only in certain octaves).
>
> What you describe, can be called work with tone groups, and yes,
> there's a danger of getting almost random, and thus boring results.
> Nothing against it, but in my opinion it's far from pure serial work.
>
> And when I say pure, I mean pure. I don't like even repetition of the
> same note, and octave transposition of individual note in the row.
> First case changes hierarchy and balance (more than using long
> sustained notes), second one changes interval structure of the row.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On Mar 24, 2011, at 9:45 AM, lobawad wrote:
>
> > I've got to get to sleep so I'll try to write more tomorrow.
> >
> > Basically, in serial music the horizontal and the vertical are
> > supposed to be "as one". That's a positive thing about it, and it
> > had much more influence on other musics than people realize (or
> > maybe there was a huge amount of zeitgeist synchonicity, that's
> > possible too).
> >
> > So you've got this row c,d,e,f,g,a (for example)
> > It's a normal serial thing to present it "bunched up", ie,
> > you assume a unity of horizontal and vertical.
> > so it could be, in two voices:
> >
> > violin: c,d,e
> > cello: f,g,a
> >
> > in my personal version of serial music, one way a transformation of
> > the row could take place would be like this:
> >
> > violin: c.......d........e
> > cello: ....f.......g......a
> >
> > now you see how the next iteration, the transformed row, could
> > smoothly be: c,f,d,g,e,a
> >
> > and extrapolate to things like P in one voice and R in the other,
> > and so on.
> >
> > it has to used with care, purpose and feeling otherwise it could be
> > abused as an attempt to use unordered sets, which I personally
> > don't think too much of.
> >
>

🔗Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>

3/26/2011 10:42:49 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:

> As you know, "Schoenbergian" and "serial" are not synonyms, and I imagine we're in agreement that things that might be suited for Schoenbergian serialism might very well be unsuited for other kinds of serialism, and vice versa.

For other kinds of serialism I think this is quite nice:

http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou/musikkolleg/hauer/ha-aw301.htm

Kalle

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/26/2011 10:57:30 AM

There were Russians doing these hexachord/sets kind of things around the same time as Hauer- very hard to find, but the little I've heard I found much stronger than Hauer. But we've got to give the guy his due:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c514qNi3b1c&feature=related

that's just rock solid (and sweet).

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
>
> > As you know, "Schoenbergian" and "serial" are not synonyms, and I imagine we're in agreement that things that might be suited for Schoenbergian serialism might very well be unsuited for other kinds of serialism, and vice versa.
>
> For other kinds of serialism I think this is quite nice:
>
> http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou/musikkolleg/hauer/ha-aw301.htm
>
> Kalle
>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

Well thanks for the osc.s! I'll do some more "bitchen" analog sounds when I get the chance. Life hasn't let me get the Silent Way interface up and running yet (medical stuff, etc.) but eventually I'll be able to run this through my external analog filters with CV control, as well.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this piece, Cam!
>
> There is some new stuff at
>
> http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
>
> Kalle
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> >
> > The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave. The tuning of the clarinet intro is in "free" intonation (actually it's pretty well within my usual tuning system but whatever, it's not 23-edo). This is part of a suite of abstractions of lullabies by your truly.
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > > group.
> > >
> > > File : /Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > Description : Based on Celtic lullaby
> > >
> > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > >
> > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > lobawad <lobawad@>
> > >
> >
>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/30/2011 9:42:22 AM

Oh, Kalle- a neat little trick is to use the rspline opcode to put tiny little touches of drift into oscillator pitch, filter cutoffs, etc.

I've always found that no matter how "good" a softsynth sounds, it almost never can stand up to a naked acoustic sound. This is probably the main reason I use Csound- the sounds can be combined with acoustic sounds without having to be hyped, or having to turn the acoustic sounds into essentially synthetic sounds by drowning them in FX. This miniscule "shimmering" with rspline helps in making the sound stronger and more "organic".

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> Well thanks for the osc.s! I'll do some more "bitchen" analog sounds when I get the chance. Life hasn't let me get the Silent Way interface up and running yet (medical stuff, etc.) but eventually I'll be able to run this through my external analog filters with CV control, as well.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@...m, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for this piece, Cam!
> >
> > There is some new stuff at
> >
> > http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
> >
> > Kalle
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave. The tuning of the clarinet intro is in "free" intonation (actually it's pretty well within my usual tuning system but whatever, it's not 23-edo). This is part of a suite of abstractions of lullabies by your truly.
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > > > group.
> > > >
> > > > File : /Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > Description : Based on Celtic lullaby
> > > >
> > > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > > /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > >
> > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/30/2011 10:04:43 AM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:

> Kalle's oscillator sound nice, in a retro Dutch-school way. Did you use it
> raw, or pumped into a lowpass of any sort? What's the reverb?

Sounds like a perfect addition to your orchestra.

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/30/2011 10:11:55 AM

Yes, I'll have to get into integrating and designing another instrument
around it....not enough hours in the day, alas!

AKJ

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 12:04 PM, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...
> wrote:

>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Kalle's oscillator sound nice, in a retro Dutch-school way. Did you use
> it
> > raw, or pumped into a lowpass of any sort? What's the reverb?
>
> Sounds like a perfect addition to your orchestra.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/30/2011 10:14:47 AM

Yup...I suspect that these little drifts are one of the reasons people like
retro-analogue sounds. And, you are right, Csound makes it easy to implement
them with the jspline stuff.
It's a trick I use several times in my 'vco2' based instruments.

Doing this kind of things with samples always falls short, because you get
the 'xerox copy' effect, and the brain picks up on that. Better to do the
computationally intense thing, but get better sound.

AKJ

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:42 AM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:

> Oh, Kalle- a neat little trick is to use the rspline opcode to put tiny
> little touches of drift into oscillator pitch, filter cutoffs, etc.
>
> I've always found that no matter how "good" a softsynth sounds, it almost
> never can stand up to a naked acoustic sound. This is probably the main
> reason I use Csound- the sounds can be combined with acoustic sounds without
> having to be hyped, or having to turn the acoustic sounds into essentially
> synthetic sounds by drowning them in FX. This miniscule "shimmering" with
> rspline helps in making the sound stronger and more "organic".
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
> >
> > Well thanks for the osc.s! I'll do some more "bitchen" analog sounds when
> I get the chance. Life hasn't let me get the Silent Way interface up and
> running yet (medical stuff, etc.) but eventually I'll be able to run this
> through my external analog filters with CV control, as well.
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for this piece, Cam!
> > >
> > > There is some new stuff at
> > >
> > > http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
> > >
> > > Kalle
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the
> tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave. The tuning of the clarinet intro
> is in "free" intonation (actually it's pretty well within my usual tuning
> system but whatever, it's not 23-edo). This is part of a suite of
> abstractions of lullabies by your truly.
> > > >
> > > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > > > > group.
> > > > >
> > > > > File : /Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > > Description : Based on Celtic lullaby
> > > > >
> > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > > >
> /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > >
> > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > > > >
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>

3/30/2011 10:49:03 AM

I have to try rspline, I didn't even know about it though I knew
jspline! BTW, did you use the sin^n-oscillator or the tanh-
oscillator? My latest comment in

http://www.csounds.com/node/1478

now defines a whole family of them! :)

Kalle

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, Kalle- a neat little trick is to use the rspline opcode to put tiny little touches of drift into oscillator pitch, filter cutoffs, etc.
>
> I've always found that no matter how "good" a softsynth sounds, it almost never can stand up to a naked acoustic sound. This is probably the main reason I use Csound- the sounds can be combined with acoustic sounds without having to be hyped, or having to turn the acoustic sounds into essentially synthetic sounds by drowning them in FX. This miniscule "shimmering" with rspline helps in making the sound stronger and more "organic".
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> >
> > Well thanks for the osc.s! I'll do some more "bitchen" analog sounds when I get the chance. Life hasn't let me get the Silent Way interface up and running yet (medical stuff, etc.) but eventually I'll be able to run this through my external analog filters with CV control, as well.
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for this piece, Cam!
> > >
> > > There is some new stuff at
> > >
> > > http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
> > >
> > > Kalle
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave. The tuning of the clarinet intro is in "free" intonation (actually it's pretty well within my usual tuning system but whatever, it's not 23-edo). This is part of a suite of abstractions of lullabies by your truly.
> > > >
> > > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > > > > group.
> > > > >
> > > > > File : /Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > > Description : Based on Celtic lullaby
> > > > >
> > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > > > /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > >
> > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

3/30/2011 11:45:57 AM

Nice!

AKJ

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>wrote:

> I have to try rspline, I didn't even know about it though I knew
> jspline! BTW, did you use the sin^n-oscillator or the tanh-
> oscillator? My latest comment in
>
> http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
>
> now defines a whole family of them! :)
>
> Kalle
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, Kalle- a neat little trick is to use the rspline opcode to put tiny
> little touches of drift into oscillator pitch, filter cutoffs, etc.
> >
> > I've always found that no matter how "good" a softsynth sounds, it almost
> never can stand up to a naked acoustic sound. This is probably the main
> reason I use Csound- the sounds can be combined with acoustic sounds without
> having to be hyped, or having to turn the acoustic sounds into essentially
> synthetic sounds by drowning them in FX. This miniscule "shimmering" with
> rspline helps in making the sound stronger and more "organic".
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well thanks for the osc.s! I'll do some more "bitchen" analog sounds
> when I get the chance. Life hasn't let me get the Silent Way interface up
> and running yet (medical stuff, etc.) but eventually I'll be able to run
> this through my external analog filters with CV control, as well.
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for this piece, Cam!
> > > >
> > > > There is some new stuff at
> > > >
> > > > http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
> > > >
> > > > Kalle
> > > >
> > > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the
> tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave. The tuning of the clarinet intro
> is in "free" intonation (actually it's pretty well within my usual tuning
> system but whatever, it's not 23-edo). This is part of a suite of
> abstractions of lullabies by your truly.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > > > > > group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > File : /Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > > > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > > > Description : Based on Celtic lullaby
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > > > >
> /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > > > > >
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

3/30/2011 12:34:27 PM

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave.

What would you say to having Chris host some of your music files? I don't think the files section here is a good long-term solution, and I'd like to put up Xenwiki links.

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/30/2011 2:28:38 PM

I used the sin version. I'll get to the new ones tomorrow, the vdc triangle should be sweet.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>
> I have to try rspline, I didn't even know about it though I knew
> jspline! BTW, did you use the sin^n-oscillator or the tanh-
> oscillator? My latest comment in
>
> http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
>
> now defines a whole family of them! :)
>
> Kalle
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, Kalle- a neat little trick is to use the rspline opcode to put tiny little touches of drift into oscillator pitch, filter cutoffs, etc.
> >
> > I've always found that no matter how "good" a softsynth sounds, it almost never can stand up to a naked acoustic sound. This is probably the main reason I use Csound- the sounds can be combined with acoustic sounds without having to be hyped, or having to turn the acoustic sounds into essentially synthetic sounds by drowning them in FX. This miniscule "shimmering" with rspline helps in making the sound stronger and more "organic".
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well thanks for the osc.s! I'll do some more "bitchen" analog sounds when I get the chance. Life hasn't let me get the Silent Way interface up and running yet (medical stuff, etc.) but eventually I'll be able to run this through my external analog filters with CV control, as well.
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for this piece, Cam!
> > > >
> > > > There is some new stuff at
> > > >
> > > > http://www.csounds.com/node/1478
> > > >
> > > > Kalle
> > > >
> > > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave. The tuning of the clarinet intro is in "free" intonation (actually it's pretty well within my usual tuning system but whatever, it's not 23-edo). This is part of a suite of abstractions of lullabies by your truly.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
> > > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
> > > > > > group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > File : /Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > > > Uploaded by : lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > > > Description : Based on Celtic lullaby
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > > > > /makemicromusic/files/Lobawad/SleepMyChild_CBobro.mp3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > lobawad <lobawad@>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

3/30/2011 2:35:06 PM

I only put up stuff briefly- it's a necessary part of discussing music. Soon I should have a site and I can set aside a permanent place for linked tunes. The server at our art institution automatically deletes files after 10 day, but I have to set up my own .org anyway.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@> wrote:
> >
> > The synthesizer is done in Csound using Kalle's new oscillator, the tuning is 23 equal divisions of the octave.
>
> What would you say to having Chris host some of your music files? I don't think the files section here is a good long-term solution, and I'd like to put up Xenwiki links.
>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

4/22/2011 1:09:27 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Igliashon Jones/89versionof23Myna.mp3
Uploaded by : cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
Description : 23ET Myna improv retuned to 89ET

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Igliashon%20Jones/89versionof23Myna.mp3

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com

2/25/2013 11:40:43 AM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MakeMicroMusic
group.

File : /Gods of Zero info.txt
Uploaded by : jsmith9624@... <jsmith9624@...>
Description : Gods of Zero album notes

You can access this file at the URL:
/makemicromusic/files/Gods%20of%20Zero%20info.txt

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

jsmith9624@... <jsmith9624@...>