Re: [MMM] humming the tune

Hi Joseph.

I know precious little about Brahms.

Do you think he was a "non-linear melodist"?

What should I be listening for? Can you recommend a piece I should hear?

Thanks,
George

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_3732.html#3772
> > what i'm dying to hear is for you or joseph pehrson or someone to
> > develop a strong voice as a *melodist*, along the lines of a lou
> > harrison or a joe maneri (to pick two extremely contrasting
> > examples).
>
> ***Hi Paul...
>
> Well, of course that is one way to create *one kind* of music, but
> not necessarily the *only* kind, in *my* opinion.
>
> While it's hard (and mostly counterproductive) to argue against
> the "long line" in a piece, I once played ballet piano for an
> instructor who couldn't even listen to Brahms!
>
> Unless the music had a very simple, transparent melodic line that he
> could "hum" as in a standard opera aria, he became "disoriented" and
> didn't "like" the music. His ear could only hear linearly.
>
> Hence, he didn't like Brahms...
>
> JP
>
>
> [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., George Zelenz <ploo@m...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_3775.html#3775

> Hi Joseph.
>
> I know precious little about Brahms.
>
> Do you think he was a "non-linear melodist"?
>
> What should I be listening for? Can you recommend a piece I should
hear?
>
> Thanks,
> George
>

***Hi George.

I would recommend the 4th Symphony. Maybe the greatest piece of
music ever written. There really aren't so many "melodic lines" per
se, mostly relationships by repeating intervals (as in the opening).

I would listen to the way the intervals work with the harmonies,
which almost rotate like a three dimensional lattice in outer space
(seriously...)

JP

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>I would recommend the 4th Symphony. Maybe the greatest piece of music >ever written.

This speaks so well as to how different our perceptions are - I always cringe when I see the 4th coming up on a program, as I find it so uninteresting to me. And if I had to pick my favorite Brahm's Symphony, it would have to be - unquestionably - the 1st.

Maybe we are getting into metatuning territory? Don't want to abuse the middle 'M' in MMM...

Cheers,
Jon

J and J!

I'll check'em both out. Thanks.

GZ

"Jonathan M. Szanto" wrote:

> Joe,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >I would recommend the 4th Symphony. Maybe the greatest piece of music
> >ever written.
>
> This speaks so well as to how different our perceptions are - I always
> cringe when I see the 4th coming up on a program, as I find it so
> uninteresting to me. And if I had to pick my favorite Brahm's Symphony, it
> would have to be - unquestionably - the 1st.
>
> Maybe we are getting into metatuning territory? Don't want to abuse the
> middle 'M' in MMM...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
> [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

George Zelenz wrote:

> Hi Joseph.
>
> I know precious little about Brahms.
>
> Do you think he was a "non-linear melodist"?
>
> What should I be listening for? Can you recommend a piece I should
> hear?
>
> Thanks,
> George
>
> Try one of his melodies. : - )

Hello all,

this thread has found me wondering whether someone like me, having had a very ptolonged exposure and training in Indian classical music, would listen to the Western music, especially Western classical music, the same way a Westerner listens to.

Would it be a different way? Do listeners like me listen to look for and highlight the melodic part in symphonies? Or, do we get the same "total picture" as the Western listeners get?

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_3775.html#3777

> Joe,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >I would recommend the 4th Symphony. Maybe the greatest piece of
music
> >ever written.
>
> This speaks so well as to how different our perceptions are - I
always cringe when I see the 4th coming up on a program, as I find
it so uninteresting to me. And if I had to pick my favorite Brahm's
Symphony, it would have to be - unquestionably - the 1st.
>

***Ha, ha... that's pretty funny :-)

You're right, though... the only time the Brahms 4th Symphony is
microtonal is when it is played by a community orchestra...

[More on MetaTuning... not the community orch. bit...]

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_3775.html#3783

> Hello all,
>
> this thread has found me wondering whether someone like me, having
had a very ptolonged exposure and training in Indian classical music,
would listen to the Western music, especially Western classical
music, the same way a Westerner listens to.
>
> Would it be a different way? Do listeners like me listen to look
for and highlight the melodic part in symphonies? Or, do we get the
same "total picture" as the Western listeners get?
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.

***Hi Haresh!

My guess is you might hear something *entirely different* than
Wenterners hear...

Why don't you try the Brahms 4th and report back on "Metatuning..."

Joseph P.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> This speaks so well as to how different our perceptions are - I always
> cringe when I see the 4th coming up on a program, as I find it so
> uninteresting to me. And if I had to pick my favorite Brahm's Symphony, it
> would have to be - unquestionably - the 1st.

Do you get to do the tympani in the first movement?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...>
wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_3775.html#3791

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
>
> > This speaks so well as to how different our perceptions are - I
always
> > cringe when I see the 4th coming up on a program, as I find it so
> > uninteresting to me. And if I had to pick my favorite Brahm's
Symphony, it
> > would have to be - unquestionably - the 1st.
>
> Do you get to do the tympani in the first movement?

***That's pretty funny, Gene. I hadn't thought of that. Jon's
got "star role" in that piece...

J. Pehrson

G,

{you wrote...}
>Do you get to do the tympani in the first movement?

My actual position is Principal Percussion, but I also frequently substitute on Timpani. And one of the great honors of my performing career was playing timps on the 1st with the late Robert Shaw a few years ago. Needless to say, it is a part we have all studied as part of our development as percussionists.

As I told George Z. offlist, I avoid liking pieces simply because they have great percussion parts, but in this instance it is a tremendous work either way!

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> this thread has found me wondering whether someone like me, having
had a very ptolonged exposure and training in Indian classical music,
would listen to the Western music, especially Western classical
music, the same way a Westerner listens to.
>
> Would it be a different way? Do listeners like me listen to look
for and highlight the melodic part in symphonies? Or, do we get the
same "total picture" as the Western listeners get?
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.

i can tell you with certainty that most westerners, including myself
some time ago, listen to indian classical music without
really "hearing" it -- that is, we are attuned to many of the wrong
dimensions to really grasp what is going on in the music. i have
learned to appreciate indian classical music much more over years of
listening, but i'm sure i have yet to even scratch the surface of the
world of feelings and mental states that indian classical music
evokes in the average indian classical music listener.

i suspect something similar would be true were one to move in the
opposite direction . . . actually i never much liked classical
symphonies, but always liked the bach and chopin that were my main
musical diet during my childhood . . .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> i suspect something similar would be true were one to move in the
> opposite direction . . . actually i never much liked classical
> symphonies, but always liked the bach and chopin that were my main
> musical diet during my childhood . . .

I've heard going the other way one tends at first to hear the music as harmonically meagre, and not to appreciate at first the role of modulation.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...>
wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> > i suspect something similar would be true were one to move in the
> > opposite direction . . . actually i never much liked classical
> > symphonies, but always liked the bach and chopin that were my
main
> > musical diet during my childhood . . .
>
> I've heard going the other way one tends at first to hear the music
>as harmonically meagre, and not to appreciate at first the role of
>modulation.

did you mean melodically meagre? indian classical music of course
doesn't employ harmony at all in the western sense of the word (that
is, chords, progressions, counterpoint) . . . though perhaps you
meant harmony in some other sense . . . (?)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> did you mean melodically meagre? indian classical music of course
> doesn't employ harmony at all in the western sense of the word (that
> is, chords, progressions, counterpoint) . . . though perhaps you
> meant harmony in some other sense . . . (?)

It occurred to me after I posted that that this might be a better way to say it. The point is that it seems to strike people with a richer suppy of notes that 12-tone music is thin and unconvincing by comparison, and modulation can be taken as an act of desperation, not a structural feature opening vast new possibilities.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
>>>> did you mean melodically meagre? indian classical music of course
> > doesn't employ harmony at all in the western sense of the word (that is, chords, progressions, counterpoint) . . . >>>>

Hello, Indian classical music does not employ chords etc., in the western sense, i. e. in the "vertical" sense. But there is always a hint of what I have come to call "broken, unfinished, linear" chord "application". You will follow my contention when we realize that the improvisation of a raga takes place in leaps and bounds. The raga does not expand one note after the next; it takes jumps to go to the next higher note which is not necessarily the next in order. This gives rise to combinatinal developments like C-E-G, C-A-F, F-D, G-B, E-G-B, A-F-D, etc. No raga, when elaborated slowly (in vilambit) and extensively, goes linearly like C-D-E-F-G-A-B.

These combinations are not chords (or counterpoints), because the notes involved in the group formation, are not sounded simultaneously. What do we call such note groups, used all the time in Indian raga music?

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...>
wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> >
> >>>> did you mean melodically meagre? indian classical music of
course
> > > doesn't employ harmony at all in the western sense of the word
(that is, chords, progressions, counterpoint) . . . >>>>
>
> Hello, Indian classical music does not employ chords etc., in the
>western sense, i. e. in the "vertical" sense. But there is always a
>hint of what I have come to call "broken, unfinished, linear"
>chord "application". You will follow my contention when we realize
>that the improvisation of a raga takes place in leaps and bounds.
>The raga does not expand one note after the next; it takes jumps to
>go to the next higher note which is not necessarily the next in
>order. This gives rise to combinatinal developments like C-E-G, C-A-
>F, F-D, G-B, E-G-B, A-F-D, etc. No raga, when elaborated slowly (in
>vilambit) and extensively, goes linearly like C-D-E-F-G-A-B.
>
> These combinations are not chords (or counterpoints), because the
>notes involved in the group formation, are not sounded
>simultaneously. What do we call such note groups, used all the time
>in Indian raga music?

i don't know, but these very ideas are one's i've been working hard
(yes, working) to explore in my own indian-flavored improvisations on
the acoustic guitar. the point i was trying to make is that these
couldn't be translated into a western harmonic structure, as given by
a specific chord progression, or any other concept from western
harmonic theory. of course, the indian approach is just as valid, and
if one wished to argue that it is in fact a form of "harmony", i
would have no objection!