Re: [MMM] Art Ownership in Pirimtive Cultures (was: social health in plundering)

Jeff,

{you wrote...}
>Well still awaiting your response, but I've thought of
>two -- the former Soviet Union and the Communist
>Chinese. They write stirring partiotic music by
>committee and by specification and no one takes
>ownership -- it is simply part of their glorious and
>wonderful superior culture in which everyone is equal
>and no bad nasty ego-oriented artist types try to
>naughtily take credit for their own work for that would
>be oh so inappropriate in their futuristic star trek
>utopia.

I don't think it has to be *quite* this black-and-white.

>But do you know of any primitive cultures that operate
>as you've described? A list and references would be
>extremely helpful.

Need a culture be primitive to exhibit these tendencies? I think not.

But in general, and while the "sharing" may not be either all-pervasive or all-encompassing as Monz might speculate, how about Bali? I've always been impressed (and I'm far from deeply knowledgeable) about how the performance arts of music, dance, costume, etc. are so completely woven into the fabric of the community. Yes, there are differing styles, and certainly different 'compositions', but it is much more of a community-wide endeavor then the composer -> performer -> audience scenario we have in the West.

Also, the involvement of entire neighborhoods and 'clans' of people in the samba festivals in Brazil certainly must point so some of the larger, group-nature of creating an artistic environment.

All of these go well beyond a mere 'composition of music', but I think it is fine if we can think a little outside the bollocks...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> >> I'm, personally, as involved in this a anybody, but let's
> >> contrast it with other cultures where the music is
> >> SHARED.... everybody elaborates, it belongs to the entire
> >> GROUP.
<snip>
> But do you know of any primitive cultures that operate
> as you've described? A list and references would be
> extremely helpful.
>
> - Jeff

Although this was not addressed to me, there are many cultures in
which people perform folk melodies so old that no one knows who first
sung or played them. As they have been passed down, they
certainly have undergone modification at the hands and lips of every
generation, perhaps to the point of unrecognizability when compared to
the first version. These certainly belong to the culture, rather than
an individual originator.

In American jazz culture, there are many examples of melodies based on
rhythm changes (1 6 2 5 x8 , 3 6 2 5 , 1 6 2 5 x4) that have been
passed around and around through jam sessions, with individual
musicians picking up a phrase here and a phrase there from different
folks improvisations over these changes. Although usually someone's
name gets tacked on a stable version (usually Charlie Parker) the
pieces themselves are an amalgam of snippets from varios people's
solos.

By the way, does anyone know why they are called rhythm changes? Neil
you are disqualified from answering. ;P

John Starrett

> From: Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 5:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Art Ownership in Pirimtive Cultures (was: social health
in plundering)
>
>
> But in general, and while the "sharing" may not be either all-pervasive or
> all-encompassing as Monz might speculate, how about Bali? I've always been
> impressed (and I'm far from deeply knowledgeable) about how the
performance
> arts of music, dance, costume, etc. are so completely woven into the
fabric
> of the community. Yes, there are differing styles, and certainly different
> 'compositions', but it is much more of a community-wide endeavor then the
> composer -> performer -> audience scenario we have in the West.
>
> Also, the involvement of entire neighborhoods and 'clans' of people in the
> samba festivals in Brazil certainly must point so some of the larger,
> group-nature of creating an artistic environment.
>
> All of these go well beyond a mere 'composition of music', but I think it
> is fine if we can think a little outside the bollocks...

Hi Jon,

I know almost nothing about the music of southeast Asia, aside from
the most basic info about gamelan, pelog, slendro, and shadow puppetry.
So no speculations from me on *that*... yet. :)
I defer to your superior knowledge.

As for Brazilian samba:

As I was thinking of the above paragraph in response to you,
I mused on the fact that African music is the cultural genre
that I know about which *really* exhibits this commingling of
art with everyday life.

A couple of months ago I attended a performance by an African
music-and-dance ensemble which was an hour-long entertainment
"piece" based very closely on actual village religious ritual.
I posted something about it to one of the tuning lists (can't
find it now... too many lists).

The African element is *very* much a part of Brazilian culture,
especially its music and dance.

I'm reminded here very much of the situation in New Orleans
around a century ago. The blues and jazz styles that were
congealing were closely interwoven with the lives and lifestyles
of the people in the community. Ditto for the "Delta Blues"
composers/performers/audiences in northeastern Mississippi
around the same time.

I'd venture to say that before the industrial revolution it was
probably like this in most villages and perhaps even most towns
and cities all over the world. Even what little I've studied
of the colonial music of Philadelphia points to a very strong
community involvement, often centered around the church or other
social gatherings and events.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_290.html#295
>
> Although this was not addressed to me, there are many cultures in
> which people perform folk melodies so old that no one knows who
first sung or played them. As they have been passed down, they
> certainly have undergone modification at the hands and lips of
every generation, perhaps to the point of unrecognizability when
compared to the first version. These certainly belong to the culture,
rather than an individual originator.
>
> In American jazz culture, there are many examples of melodies based
on
> rhythm changes (1 6 2 5 x8 , 3 6 2 5 , 1 6 2 5 x4) that have been
> passed around and around through jam sessions,

Someone mentioned that blues is a "communal art form," yes??

_________ _______ _____
Joseph Pehrson