Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Re: [MMM] social health in plundering

Hi Joe,

> From: <jpehrson@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 4:09 PM
> Subject: [MMM] social health in plundering
>
>
> Another point is the possibility that we're too wrapped up in the
> Western concept of the "great Artwork" (with a "capital A") and
> the "great Artist" (with two capital A's...)
>
> I'm, personally, as involved in this a anybody, but let's contrast it
> with other cultures where the music is SHARED.... everybody
> elaborates, it belongs to the entire GROUP.
>
> Nobody in a culture can "rip off" what belongs to an entire culture
> as a whole...
>
> (???)

You and I are really seeing eye-to-eye on this one.

This is exactly where I was going in my previous reply
agreeing with you on this thread.

IMO, the internet "global cyber community" does (or at
least *can*, if we do it right, which is the goal on this
list) provide this kind of shared, communal creative experience.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

J!
Why should a bunch of lazies do nothings get credit for others hard
work.
What entitles them to anything, just to be born after someone else. It
is why i find the olympics, team sports named after cities (soon to be
named after corporations) , and nationalistic pride nothing more than a
falsification.
I remember the streets filled with the biggest dumbest slobs yelling
up and down the street yelling "lakers' yea man lakers" as if they have
anything to do with the players skill. They could barely walk.
On the other hand i owe a great debt to the work before that makes
mine easier and/or less painful and believe the best way to repay that
debt is to preserve and respect their works. The idea that every
building is something i am entitled to run and smash because the rubble
left serves as a good supply of new building stone lacks the perception
to even evaluates others works.
I know of no culture outside of this one that thinks the artifacts
of the artists are jointly theirs. Only when the artist gives them to
his culture does it belong to them. Artist in these cultures are not
treated with the antagonism and Jealousy they are in this one but are
respected for what they add.
Capital is the only reason for art in this culture now anyway. It is
either a commodity or it doesn't exist. There is no capital A only a
capital C.
Pluderphonics and Advertising use the same tools and after removing
the rhetoric are basically the same

jpehrson@... wrote:

> Another point is the possibility that we're too wrapped up in the
> Western concept of the "great Artwork" (with a "capital A") and
> the "great Artist" (with two capital A's...)
>
> I'm, personally, as involved in this a anybody, but let's contrast it
> with other cultures where the music is SHARED.... everybody
> elaborates, it belongs to the entire GROUP.
>
> Nobody in a culture can "rip off" what belongs to an entire culture
> as a whole...
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> J!
> Why should a bunch of lazies do nothings get credit for others
> hard work.
<snip>
> I remember the streets filled with the biggest dumbest slobs
> yelling up and down the street yelling "lakers' yea man lakers" as
> if they have
> anything to do with the players skill. They could barely walk.
<snip>

Right on!

<snip>
> I know of no culture outside of this one that thinks the
> artifacts of the artists are jointly theirs. Only when the artist
> gives them to his culture does it belong to them. Artist in these
> cultures are not treated with the antagonism and Jealousy they are
> in this one but are respected for what they add.

If I may consider mathematics and physics as art (and I do personally,
but I mean for the sake of an example) mathematicians and physicists,
and most hard scientists I can think of, do consider scientific
results communal property. Although individuals struggle to produce
new insights and structures, these are immediately considered public
property once they are revealed. Thereupon, everyone is entitled to
use these results in their own work.

> Capital is the only reason for art in this culture now anyway.
> It is either a commodity or it doesn't exist. There is no capital A
> only a capital C.

This is really sad, but true.

<snip>
> -- Kraig Grady

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Dan!
I understand the historical background but as far as i can see,
Plunderphonics is something that will be used against me.
We don't live in the same world as Ives , we can no longer end up at the
rail station at the end of the day and all sing the same hymn. It will
never happen again. That culture is gone and so is its history. The
reason the visual arts no longer use these methods is because it, like
surrealism, is the language now the property of advertising. It is
incapable of drumming up a common experience unless that experience is
buying together or the same thing.

"D.Stearns" wrote:

> I know there's a lot of energetic high fiving going on here at the
> moment, and it's true that I'm starting to feel a little lonely --
> kind of like the last one standing on some strange and distant shore,
> but...
>
> I really think that the "plunder" tag is seriously eroding some folks
> ability (or want) to look at this issue in both a broader historical
> sense (art history that is, as Jon Szanto just mentioned and Cutler
> keenly outlines as well) and in anything like a case by case
> evaluation of intent and accomplishment...
>
> I'm definitely bummed to see this... but I suppose we can't all agree
> on everything, that's life!

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: D.Stearns <STEARNS@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] social health in plundering
>
>
> I know there's a lot of energetic high fiving going on here at the
> moment, and it's true that I'm starting to feel a little lonely --
> kind of like the last one standing on some strange and distant shore,
> but...
>
> I really think that the "plunder" tag is seriously eroding some folks
> ability (or want) to look at this issue in both a broader historical
> sense (art history that is, as Jon Szanto just mentioned and Cutler
> keenly outlines as well) and in anything like a case by case
> evaluation of intent and accomplishment...
>
> I'm definitely bummed to see this... but I suppose we can't all agree
> on everything, that's life!

Hey brother Dan,

If I'm not standing on that shore with you, then I'm at
least sitting in a boat on your side of the lake!

And I reserve the freedom to travel between shores as I please.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗Dave X <davex@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

"D.Stearns" wrote:

> Hi Kraig,
>
> <<I understand the historical background but as far as i can see,
> Plunderphonics is something that will be used against me.>>
>
> Suppose for a minute that someone had taken some of your music as a
> source material and through some extreme manipulation and a healthy
> heaping helping of Devin talent had fashioned a sound world that you
> both found appealing and could not precisely decipherable as regards
> its origins... would you suddenly not like it upon learning that it
> used some of your music at some stage in the process?

that is happened more than once and at that point it didn't matter
caused it was so buried. Did it do anything for me? nothing at all.
Even a credit on the i found offensive in that it implied that i
approved of what was being done , or was there contributing. Still if i
take a copy of their software , I am a thief.
tonight I was at a club and some one approach me to Rent my instruments
so he could sample them. What could i possibly gained by being sampled?

BTW that somehow this stance has anything to do with academia is
misplaced. Academia is all for sampling as far as i can tell. i am not
associated with any schools nor do i read their products. In fact some
schools it has been the complete focus. I know of not one university
where acoustic instrument building is dealt with in any fashion.

> Just like everything else, plunderphonia can be used well or it can be
>
> used poorly... it can also be used invisibly, and here there can be no
>
> opposition other than an ideological or a political one.
>
> Shouldn't we be listening with our heads and our hearts and not our
> politics... maybe not?

The mere fact that one's bring up plunderphonics is a political act and
statement. The term is a political one. It is the proponents that
defined the language for it discussion as political. There is nothing in
this work that has anything to do with heart and soul. It is not me who
defined how it would be discussed, but people like John Oswald. That
which happened historically before was not called plunderphonics and was
not a political in essence. That the term is being applied in retrospect
to what those processes were is manipulative for political means.

> <<We don't live in the same world as Ives , we can no longer end up at
>
> the rail station at the end of the day and all sing the same hymn. It
> will never happen again.>>
>
> I couldn't help but think that Ives idealized that occurrence above
> and beyond reality anyway, but so what?

you don't think it happened. I never doubted it but perhaps i am naive

> Is it impossible to believe
> that maybe the fundamental longings expressed here have not been jaded
>
> right out of every last living thing!

This fundamental longing is the one thing i believe each and every one
of us is where we would all agree. The common experience is our longing
for this common experience, the search for the current that runs through
us all.

I have found nothing in the dialog of plunderphonics to approach the
question of this fundamental longing.
From Ives I don't get this as much as the spiritual conflict and/ or
civil war going on in this country ( maybe the world is more appropriate
now) that is not going to ever be resolved. it is completely frightening
and is a statement on the political situation of us. Which is different
than a political statement. This was the first country not based on a
particular religion and the result is a spiritual havoc. His use of
themes represents less to me a common experiences as the outlooks of
the different groups that make up this mixture. He saw no solution to
how it would all work out and despite TV making us all see things the
same we have never been further apart.

an aside...............

BTW my friend Roger Mexico has been documenting the various Charles
Ives sightings and i hope to be putting up some in the near future,
although over the years , some have been sent to Lou Harrison.

> <<The reason the visual arts no longer use these methods is because
> it, like surrealism, is the language now the property of advertising.
> It is incapable of drumming up a common experience unless that
> experience is buying together or the same thing.>>
>
> There's a preposterously wide range of things that could (or do) fall
> somewhere near the plunder tree... and I honestly don't get
> overemphasizing the whole consumer-advertising thing.

I emphasize advertising because here you have a field which draws on
everything and everything is apart of its language and in one way is
owns everything because it can buy anything.
What does hearing "Come Together" in a commercial do. What are we
gaining here?
Why do we think a free rain on everything will produce a better attitude
towards what others do or mean by what they do.

> From my own
> reference points and the things that I'm personally interested in it
> makes no sense whatsoever... but obviously there must be something to
> it for you, otherwise you wouldn't go on about it the way you are!
>
> BTW, has anyone heard the commissioned Grateful Dead plunderphonic
> project that Oswald did... and does this openly collaborative
> endorsement change the dynamic?

yes because it is a political statement and that is it purpose and goal

>
>
> --Dan Stearns
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗jpehrson@...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_285.html#293

> J!
> Why should a bunch of lazies do nothings get credit for others
hard
> work.
> What entitles them to anything, just to be born after someone else.
It
> is why i find the olympics, team sports named after cities (soon to
be
> named after corporations) , and nationalistic pride nothing more
than a
> falsification.
> I remember the streets filled with the biggest dumbest slobs
yelling
> up and down the street yelling "lakers' yea man lakers" as if they
have
> anything to do with the players skill. They could barely walk.
> On the other hand i owe a great debt to the work before that
makes
> mine easier and/or less painful and believe the best way to repay
that
> debt is to preserve and respect their works. The idea that every
> building is something i am entitled to run and smash because the
rubble
> left serves as a good supply of new building stone lacks the
perception
> to even evaluates others works.
> I know of no culture outside of this one that thinks the
artifacts
> of the artists are jointly theirs. Only when the artist gives them
to
> his culture does it belong to them. Artist in these cultures are not
> treated with the antagonism and Jealousy they are in this one but
are
> respected for what they add.
> Capital is the only reason for art in this culture now anyway.
It is
> either a commodity or it doesn't exist. There is no capital A only a
> capital C.
> Pluderphonics and Advertising use the same tools and after
removing
> the rhetoric are basically the same
>

Thanks, Kraig, for your response with this. Frankly, I thought that
the residents of Anaphoria wrote "communal" music (??)

And to Jeff Scott: to answer your questions about which cultures, I
have to say I have no idea. There have been a couple of tentative
answers so far...

That's why I left the question marks... (???)

Of course, John Cage was also interested in minimizing
the "ownership" of a piece of music, and I *believe* this idea was
tied in with his studies of Oriental cultures, to a degree. I'm no
expert on this though.

And Jon Szanto is right: I am thoroughly involved with the Western
*ownership* concept of a piece of music. That's why I copyright my
pieces :)

I was just positing some ideas, and would like to try to get a
different perspective and some responses...

________ _______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗jpehrson@...

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

Kraig wrote,

> > Dan!
> > I understand the historical background but as far as i can
see,
> > Plunderphonics is something that will be used against me.
> > We don't live in the same world as Ives , we can no longer end up
> at the
> > rail station at the end of the day and all sing the same hymn. It
> will
> > never happen again. That culture is gone and so is its history.
The
> > reason the visual arts no longer use these methods is because it,
> like
> > surrealism, is the language now the property of advertising. It is
> > incapable of drumming up a common experience unless that
experience
> is
> > buying together or the same thing.

I wrote,

> Kraig, you should start going to Rainbow Gatherings.

Just realized that Kraig will _probably_ misinterpret this . . . so
just to clarify, I absolutely _love_ these kinds of events, and
attend them as often as I can . . . music is made, musical ideas are
shared, no one takes possession of anything. Yes, I'm a hippie,
unabashed!

By the way friends, no one knows this yet, but the title TIBIA
actually came to me (while engaged in very hippie-like activities) a
couple of years before I wrote the piece with that name (again while
engaged in very hippie-like activities) in 1996. TIBIA stands for

Translating It Back Into Action

meaning, taking all the theory and making some actual music with it.
That phrase came to me first, then I realized later that it spelled
TIBIA. So don't worry folks, I'm firmly in agreement that music must
be the final result, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, so to
speak . . . thanks for the prodding anyhow.

I'm planning to score TIBIA for string quartet (Johnny Reinhard bugs
me for that score from time to time), perhaps elaborating it with
some contrapuntal sections, soaring melodies, etc., but I think the
20-bar chord progression should just repeat over and over again . . .
any comments?

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Paul,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> TIBIA stands for Translating It Back Into Action

That's great! I've had it on my hard disk ever since John put it on
the TPunks site back when, but I never imagined...

> I'm planning to score TIBIA for string quartet (Johnny Reinhard
bugs
> me for that score from time to time), perhaps elaborating it with
> some contrapuntal sections, soaring melodies, etc., but I think the
> 20-bar chord progression should just repeat over and over
again . . .
> any comments?

Seriously? If you're serious, only microtonalists would want to
listen to a chord progression over and over again... unless you made
is a lot more atmospheric.

Why not use it as a template, maybe as the first go around, and then
turn it into a modern-day passacaglia, with counterlines and
melodies -- as you say, taking flight -- over the ground of the
progression.

I'd say there is plenty of material here for a full piece, as I never
thought is was finished when I heard it. You go, boy!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗jpehrson@...

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > TIBIA stands for Translating It Back Into Action
>
> That's great! I've had it on my hard disk ever since John put it on
> the TPunks site back when, but I never imagined...
>
> > I'm planning to score TIBIA for string quartet (Johnny Reinhard
> bugs
> > me for that score from time to time), perhaps elaborating it with
> > some contrapuntal sections, soaring melodies, etc., but I think
the
> > 20-bar chord progression should just repeat over and over
> again . . .
> > any comments?
>
> Seriously? If you're serious, only microtonalists would want to
> listen to a chord progression over and over again... unless you
made
> is a lot more atmospheric.
>
> Why not use it as a template, maybe as the first go around, and
then
> turn it into a modern-day passacaglia, with counterlines and
> melodies -- as you say, taking flight -- over the ground of the
> progression.

Well that's exactly what I meant! A passacaglia, in which the
harmonic progression repeats over and over again. So I take it you
_like_ my idea, then?

> I'd say there is plenty of material here for a full piece, as I
never
> thought is was finished when I heard it. You go, boy!

Consider it a work in progress -- initial inspiration was just the
first 8 bars, then later extended by transposing the first 8 bars to
the "dominant" to make the next 8, then a 4-bar "turnaround" was
added to get back to the "tonic" . . . next will be to
greatly "melodicize" it, as we're saying . . . let's just hope the
violist at the first performance is really good at playing 491-cent
double-stops descending by 55 cents at a time!

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗jpehrson@...

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Nice dreadlock Joe! ;)

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley
----- Original Message -----
From: jpehrson@...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_285.html#421

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> > Aren't you a bit young to be a *real* hippie, Paul?? Well, I
guess
> > everything recycles... that's good news, basically!
>
> Yeah . . . the "real" hippies nowadays are a bit different from the
> first generation in that they typically have dreadlocks, wear
> patchwork clothing and accessories, and love reggae, funk, and jazz
> in addition to jam-rock. I'm sort of a part-time hippie . . .

Hmmm. Thanks for the update. I consider myself a kind of "clock
watching" hippie myself...

________ _______ ____
Joseph Pehrson

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Rosati <dante.interport@...>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@...]
> Yeah . . . the "real" hippies nowadays are a bit different from the
> first generation in that they typically have dreadlocks, wear
> patchwork clothing and accessories, and love reggae, funk, and jazz
> in addition to jam-rock. I'm sort of a part-time hippie . . .

They're usually called "Krusties", "Travelers" or "Squatters". They're sort
of the urban remnant of the hippy movement. My band used to play alot of
shows at the squats in the East Village, but most of them are gone now,
thanks to Adolf Giuliani (we even had a song with that title). They even
brought in armored personal vehicles when they took down the squat on 12th
street. Krusties are not to be confused with punk-rockers: punks may crash
at squats temporarily but they dress differently (think Sid Vicious), and
do not have any of the old hippy values. There is often friction between the
two "sects". They do share a taste for rampant drug abuse, however.

Every summer there's a new "crop" of Krusties spare-changing on St. Marks
Place, usually they look to be in their late teens. As they get older they
either give up the nomadic lifestyle or if they stick with it long enough
they die from heroin overdose, cirrhosis of the liver, malnutrition or
violence. There is a whole network of houses and squats across the country
where Krusties know they can stay and they spend the year traveling from one
city to another. I met a few who even kept alive the old and honorable
tradition of jumping boxcars to get across country. Krusties are
international as well and can be found in England and on the continent.

It's amazing how much thought and effort goes into their "uniforms" (There's
a major irony here in that they consider themselves the ultimate "rebels"
and non-conformists, yet their dresscode is as rigidly codified as any
organization like the military). Earth-tones are a must, army fatigues,
dockmartins or other high-lace boots. Patches are a must, of various punk,
hardcore or squatter bands, sewn on by hand (they have alot of free time)
with a standard stitching style. Piercing and tattoos abound, preferably
tattoos done by other squatters in a rough style with home-made equipment.

Many of the ones I've known are actually intelligent and quite artistic (the
inside of C-Squat has all kinds of inlays on the stairs done with found
materials), but another common denominator is usually horrific childhoods
complete with abuse, etc. This accounts for the prodigious drug and alcohol
abuse, trying to dull the pain. They have a kind of idealism or credo that
often includes vegetarianism and always professes confrontation with the
"system", but the kind of peace and love thing that characterized the
earlier hippies is not really there, although alot of them do look out for
each other to some extent, its much darker and more apocalyptic now.

All in all, an interesting bunch, but not very friendly ("us and them"
mentality) and definitely self-destructive in the extreme.

Dante

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@s...]
> > Yeah . . . the "real" hippies nowadays are a bit different from
the
> > first generation in that they typically have dreadlocks, wear
> > patchwork clothing and accessories, and love reggae, funk, and
jazz
> > in addition to jam-rock. I'm sort of a part-time hippie . . .
>
> They're usually called "Krusties", "Travelers" or "Squatters".
They're sort
> of the urban remnant of the hippy movement.

New York is not the entire world, you know.

My band used to play alot of
> shows at the squats in the East Village, but most of them are gone
now,
> thanks to Adolf Giuliani (we even had a song with that title). They
even
> brought in armored personal vehicles when they took down the squat
on 12th
> street. Krusties are not to be confused with punk-rockers: punks
may crash
> at squats temporarily but they dress differently (think Sid
Vicious), and
> do not have any of the old hippy values. There is often friction
between the
> two "sects". They do share a taste for rampant drug abuse, however.

Hmm.
>
> Every summer there's a new "crop" of Krusties spare-changing on St.
Marks
> Place, usually they look to be in their late teens. As they get
older they
> either give up the nomadic lifestyle or if they stick with it long
enough
> they die from heroin overdose, cirrhosis of the liver, malnutrition
or
> violence. There is a whole network of houses and squats across the
country
> where Krusties know they can stay and they spend the year traveling
from one
> city to another. I met a few who even kept alive the old and
honorable
> tradition of jumping boxcars to get across country. Krusties are
> international as well and can be found in England and on the
continent.
>
> It's amazing how much thought and effort goes into their "uniforms"
(There's
> a major irony here in that they consider themselves the
ultimate "rebels"
> and non-conformists, yet their dresscode is as rigidly codified as
any
> organization like the military). Earth-tones are a must, army
fatigues,
> dockmartins or other high-lace boots. Patches are a must, of
various punk,
> hardcore or squatter bands, sewn on by hand (they have alot of free
time)
> with a standard stitching style. Piercing and tattoos abound,
preferably
> tattoos done by other squatters in a rough style with home-made
equipment.
>
> Many of the ones I've known are actually intelligent and quite
artistic (the
> inside of C-Squat has all kinds of inlays on the stairs done with
found
> materials), but another common denominator is usually horrific
childhoods
> complete with abuse, etc. This accounts for the prodigious drug and
alcohol
> abuse, trying to dull the pain. They have a kind of idealism or
credo that
> often includes vegetarianism and always professes confrontation
with the
> "system", but the kind of peace and love thing that characterized
the
> earlier hippies is not really there, although alot of them do look
out for
> each other to some extent, its much darker and more apocalyptic now.
>
> All in all, an interesting bunch, but not very friendly ("us and
them"
> mentality) and definitely self-destructive in the extreme.
>
Well this is the St. Marks Place view of the phenomenon and that's an
extremely atypical cross-section, you must admit. Many of the people
I'm talking about go to nice colleges (or are about to, or have
recently graduated), and many even have well-to-do parents and nice
cars. Others roam the country in relative poverty, perhaps escaping
unfavorable circumstances at home, but in my experience, tend to have
an amazingly non-judgmental and open attitude towards others.

I'd say you're describing a completely different group of people, who
have decided, for one reason or another, to adopt the same fashion,
but the similarity goes little deeper than that. Anyhow, classifying
people into groups is foolish, so I'll stop now!

P.S. Wouldn't you view the self-destructive behavior as a McLaren-
like "Cry For Help"?