social health in plundering

Another point is the possibility that we're too wrapped up in the
Western concept of the "great Artwork" (with a "capital A") and
the "great Artist" (with two capital A's...)

I'm, personally, as involved in this a anybody, but let's contrast it
with other cultures where the music is SHARED.... everybody
elaborates, it belongs to the entire GROUP.

Nobody in a culture can "rip off" what belongs to an entire culture
as a whole...

(???)

________ _______ _______
Joseph Pehrson

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>Another point is the possibility that we're too wrapped up in the
>Western concept of the "great Artwork" (with a "capital A") and
>the "great Artist" (with two capital A's...)

I'm not. Wrapped up, that is.

>I'm, personally, as involved in this a anybody, but let's contrast it
>with other cultures where the music is SHARED.... everybody
>elaborates, it belongs to the entire GROUP.

I've mentioned Bali and Brazilian samba; what did you have in mind?

>Nobody in a culture can "rip off" what belongs to an entire culture
>as a whole...

Using the term "rip off" is certainly indicative of *your* particular view on this! But I'm wondering: even if one stays within the Artist as Composer area, capitals and all, what about other aesthetics and media?

The main goal of this forum is CREATING. A thrust for doing the music, for making it happen. If we look to visual arts, certainly the movements in collage and assemblage (no art historian here, forgive me) that, I believe, came strongly into being in the early part of this century -- certainly many of these pieces are Art as we, in the West, have come to know. Schwitters, the Merzbau movement, Picasso himself -- many many people used found text, printed matter, photographs, adverts, etc., and cut-and-pasted them into new pieces of creative work.

Is their end-product diminished because of the 'borrowing' of found art/commerce/visuals? Are they "ripping off" the culture?

Discuss.

Cheers,
Jon

>(???)
>
>________ _______ _______
>Joseph Pehrson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Real Life: Orchestral Percussionist
Web Life: "Corporeal Meadows" - about Harry Partch
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NOTE:
If your reply bounces, try --> jonszanto@...

> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> Subject: Re: social health in plundering

> Capital is the only reason for art in this culture now anyway. It is
> either a commodity or it doesn't exist. There is no capital A only a
> capital C.
> Pluderphonics and Advertising use the same tools and after removing
> the rhetoric are basically the same

Ain't that the sad truth of affairs. I offer this quote by Doris Lessing to
remind us of something important as we continue to live and create art
within this mass marketed McDonalds/Microsoft/Time-Warner corporate culture.

"And it does no harm to repeat, as often as you can, 'Without
me the literary industry would not exist: the publishers, the
agents, the sub-agents, the sub-sub-agents, the accountants,
the libel lawyers, the departments of literature, the professors
the theses, the books of criticism, the reviewers, the book
pages -- all this vast and proliferating edifice is because
of this small, patronized, put-down and underpaid person.'"
--Doris Lessing

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@...
klezmusic@...

> "And it does no harm to repeat, as often as you can, 'Without
> me the literary industry would not exist: the publishers, the
> agents, the sub-agents, the sub-sub-agents, the accountants,
> the libel lawyers, the departments of literature, the professors
> the theses, the books of criticism, the reviewers, the book
> pages -- all this vast and proliferating edifice is because
> of this small, patronized, put-down and underpaid person.'"
> --Doris Lessing
>
> Seth

Oh yes! That's really inspiring.

John Starrett

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_284.html#291

> The main goal of this forum is CREATING. A thrust for doing the
music, for making it happen. If we look to visual arts, certainly
the movements in collage and assemblage (no art historian here,
forgive me) that, I believe, came strongly into being in the early
part of this century -- certainly many of these pieces are Art as
we, in the West, have come to know. Schwitters, the Merzbau
movement, Picasso himself -- many many people used found text,
printed matter, photographs, adverts, etc., and cut-and-pasted
> them into new pieces of creative work.
>
> Is their end-product diminished because of the 'borrowing' of found
> art/commerce/visuals? Are they "ripping off" the culture?
>
> Discuss.
>

Rauschenberg.... and I *do* happen to believe he's a "great Artist..."

_______ _______ _______
Joseph Pehrson

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>Rauschenberg.... and I *do* happen to believe he's a "great Artist..."

How does this jive with your opinion regarding sampling, then? I only gave a couple of examples, and Rauschenberg is another great one. If 'assemblage' is creative and can lead to art in that medium, why can't the analogous 'assemblage' of musical materials lead to a similar end in music?

Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_284.html#335

> > "And it does no harm to repeat, as often as you can, 'Without
> > me the literary industry would not exist: the publishers, the
> > agents, the sub-agents, the sub-sub-agents, the accountants,
> > the libel lawyers, the departments of literature, the professors
> > the theses, the books of criticism, the reviewers, the book
> > pages -- all this vast and proliferating edifice is because
> > of this small, patronized, put-down and underpaid person.'"
> > --Doris Lessing
> >
> > Seth
>
> Oh yes! That's really inspiring.
>
> John Starrett

I suppose that, in all fairness, we have to include the fact that the
author is *also,* however, the most "famous" entity of the chain...

___________ _________ ____
Joseph Pehrson

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_284.html#356

> Joe,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Rauschenberg.... and I *do* happen to believe he's a "great
Artist..."
>
> How does this jive with your opinion regarding sampling, then? I
only gave a couple of examples, and Rauschenberg is another great
one. If 'assemblage' is creative and can lead to art in that medium,
why can't the analogous 'assemblage' of musical materials lead to a
similar end in music?
>
> Jon

Jon... I think if you re-read the posts, you have Rick and I
confused... or sampled, or mixed together!

_________ _________ ____
Joseph Pehrson

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>Jon... I think if you re-read the posts, you have Rick and I confused... >or sampled, or mixed together!

Yes, I corrected that, you just hadn't read that far. Sorry.