Re: [MMM] Re: ain't

Ain't is right!
So you can steal from other artist by stealing their sounds, but
business are a no- no?
I think their is something very debilitating on a subconscious level
when one have to take others goods to the artist themselves.
INstrumentalist work hard for their sound don't they, thousands in
lessons?
Welcome to Moral court. :)
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Ain't is right!
> So you can steal from other artist by stealing their sounds, but
> business are a no- no?
>I think their is something very debilitating on a subconscious level
> when one have to take others goods to the artist themselves.
> INstrumentalist work hard for their sound don't they, thousands in
> lessons?
>
>Kraig-

If you are referencing my answer to your question of sampling, I
remind you I said short samples. By that I don't mean phrases or
sections, but sounds. Like sampling a steel drum note from the Mighty
Duke, or a boop from Bobby McFerrin. How do you feel about Al Yankovic
stealing the whole feel, structure and sound of others' music, using
new words only?

As for the issue of stealing from artists as opposed to businesses,
how do you feel about stealing Robert Walker's Fractal Tune Smithy? If
it was much more popular, there would be a crack, and that would be
possible. Is Robert Walker a business because he writes software? I
paid $30 for a cool program called n-track, which is a multitrack
studio for PC. It can be cracked, but it is written by one guy. If he
had five employees, would it be OK to crack it? Is it OK to crack Cool
Edit because they have 15 employees (just guessing, it might be 3 or
30)?

I am sure of my personal moral position on cracking software. The
point you bring up about sampling has got me thinking though. As I
wrote about sampling a single note, I realized I had some qualms about
even that. A person works hard on their individual sound, and by
sampling even a single note, you are in some way stealing their work.
On the other hand, musicians copy the style of those they admire. I
pulled the frets out of my electric bass *immediately* (within an
hour) when I heard Jaco for the first time, and learned all the pieces
on his album. Are we stealing by aping someone's style? Is Prent
Rogers stealing by using Harry Partch's scales and tonal structures?

I don't know. Welcome to moral court.

If you weren't addressing my reply, then never mind.

John Starrett

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_231.html#236

> I am sure of my personal moral position on cracking software. The
> point you bring up about sampling has got me thinking though. As I
> wrote about sampling a single note, I realized I had some qualms
about
> even that. A person works hard on their individual sound, and by
> sampling even a single note, you are in some way stealing their
work.
> On the other hand, musicians copy the style of those they admire. I
> pulled the frets out of my electric bass *immediately* (within an
> hour) when I heard Jaco for the first time, and learned all the
pieces
> on his album. Are we stealing by aping someone's style? Is Prent
> Rogers stealing by using Harry Partch's scales and tonal structures?
>

In "so called" traditional music, there is a distinction
between "quotation" and stylistic influences. "Quotation" that is in
the public domain is unimaginative in many cases. If it's
copyrighted, it's illegal...

_______ _______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

J.P. wrote...

> In "so called" traditional music, there is a distinction
> between "quotation" and stylistic influences.

Definitely true. Take a look at PDQ Bach's blatant rip-offs, versus the
Schikele "quodlibet"... for instance.

> If it's copyrighted, it's illegal...

Actually, I believe, there is an upper limit on what you can legally quote
in music, before it's considered infringement. Why? Well, music being what
it is, there are common turns of phrase, so you don't want to limit things
too tightly, or people would start suing over 2 or 3 note phrases. I think
the limit is 4 bars... but hey, I'm not a lawyer, that's just what I recall
from old school heresay.

There are also legal provisions for parody & satire, in just about any
domain. You can make a satire something without being accused of legal
infringement. That, for example, is why someone like Yankovic can do what he
does. And I suspect that, popular and high-profile as he is, his legal
people know what they're doing...

In any case, the only thing I've ever cribbed is the ding-dong-dong-ding
tune that you hear so often on clock towers.

Rick

John!
I can't remember where the comment came and my posting this was to
make a comparison As the token Acoustic person on these list, i might
not liked being sampled, after spending hours if not years coming up
with an instrument. I also am not sure what i think about software
designed to steal sounds of others.

John Starrett wrote:

> ns?
> >
> >Kraig-
>
> If you are referencing my answer to your question of sampling, I
> remind you I said short samples. By that I don't mean phrases or
> sections, but sounds. Like sampling a steel drum note from the Mighty
> Duke, or a boop from Bobby McFerrin. How do you feel about Al Yankovic
>
> stealing the whole feel, structure and sound of others' music, using
> new words only?

a thief of course. Cleverness and thievery were both qualities of Hermes
BTW

> As for the issue of stealing from artists as opposed to businesses,
> how do you feel about stealing Robert Walker's Fractal Tune Smithy? If
>
> it was much more popular, there would be a crack, and that would be
> possible. Is Robert Walker a business because he writes software? I
> paid $30 for a cool program called n-track, which is a multitrack
> studio for PC. It can be cracked, but it is written by one guy. If he
> had five employees, would it be OK to crack it? Is it OK to crack Cool
>
> Edit because they have 15 employees (just guessing, it might be 3 or
> 30)?

no to all the above

> I am sure of my personal moral position on cracking software. The
> point you bring up about sampling has got me thinking though. As I
> wrote about sampling a single note, I realized I had some qualms about
>
> even that. A person works hard on their individual sound, and by
> sampling even a single note, you are in some way stealing their work.
> On the other hand, musicians copy the style of those they admire. I
> pulled the frets out of my electric bass *immediately* (within an
> hour) when I heard Jaco for the first time, and learned all the pieces
>
> on his album.

> Are we stealing by aping someone's style?

The Beach Boys Finally gave Bo Diddley millions for coping his guitar
style and it seems if one benefited to this amount from some ones else's
work , then compensation might be appropriate

> Is Prent
> Rogers stealing by using Harry Partch's scales and tonal structures?

Harry would i guess say no. But if you copied the tuning of a particular
Balinese or Javanese village they would most certainly consider you a
thief.

> I don't know. Welcome to moral court.

In the end i don't know either. At this point in our civilization,
ethics is non existent or dependent on that sliding economic scale.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm