Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Cruisin' thru the Ruins

re:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/songs/ruins11aji.mp3
(5 megs)

> From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 5:12 PM
> Subject: [MMM] Re: Cruisin' thru the Ruins
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_2242.html#2242
>
> >
> > latest Monzo piece (and one of my good ones):
> >
> > Cruisin' thru the Ruins
> > http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/songs/cruising.htm
> >
> >
> > at nearly 5 meg, the mp3 takes a while to download when
> > the page opens.
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
> >
>
> ****Nice job, Monz...
>
> But mightn't this benefit from a little "post processing"
> and "mastering" such as we have been discussing??? :)

thanks for that criticism, Joe.

in fact, this piece as you're hearing it was basically finished
on September 28, when its topicality was a lot more relevant
(it's about 9-11, as well as ancient Rome). the reason it's
only appearing now, 5 months later, is because i haven't had
the tools and/or time to give it the production it deserves.

and i've approached a couple of colleagues here whose work in
the studio i respect in the utmost, and they too were all unable
to help out at this time.

so i was anxious to get this before all of you, and kind of
slapped together something that sounded at least good enough
that i'd finally be willing to make it public, because i
really wanted people to hear this, and i really am interested
in their feedback.

the part that sounds the worst to me, production-wise, is
after the part in changing meters, right where it goes into
the full-blown version of the hard-rock section for the first
time. there's some clipping there that i don't think i can
digitally remove -- it would require recording it over again.

but then, after listening to the mp3 for a while, i actually
liked that clipping more and more, because to me it really
evokes the sound of explosions that happened at the
World Trade Center on 9-11.

since folks on this list frequently seem to be interested
in the actual genesis of a composition, i'll describe in
some detail how _Cruisin' thru the Ruins_ came about;
and i think it has quite a bearing on this "poorly engineered"
version.

the part in changing meters, which i wrote about 5 days
after returning home from my trip to Europe, is supposed
to be "about" the trip ... depicting me traveling around
Paris, Bruges, Rome, Florence, Venice, Brussels, Amsterdam,
etc.

the hard-rock section, which was written just before i left,
was not "about" anything when i wrote it. i was just inspired
with what i thought was a really cool riff, and when i put
it into the computer and added other stuff to it, it changed
and developed in quite beautiful and unexpected ways ...

[digression ...]

... as almost always happens when i compose -- even when i think
the *original* inspiration is very good (which i admit is not
always the case), it frequently happens that in the process
of working on the piece all kinds of new connections and
other ideas become apparent, as if they are an inherent part
of the original musical idea in some strange way. a great
example of this in my own work is _A Noiseless Patient Spider_
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/spider/spider.htm
see the program notes there for details.

it's no big deal that this happens to me -- very many people
have made similar comments. Jim Morrison (of The Doors)
said about composing the first Doors album: "it was like
there was this fantastic rock concert going on in my head,
an i was just taking notes" ... etc.

[ok, digression over, back to the main thread ...]

i couldn't get that rock riff out of my head, and heard it
in my mind constantly as i wandered over a rather large
chunk of Europe that month. "pictorial" ideas for developing
it into a piece occurred to me as i traveled ... in other
words, i was getting "programmatic" ideas (and i may have
even thought of the lyrics while i was there too -- can't
remember now) for what i wanted the piece to be "about".

as i said, about 5 days after i got home, a musical idea
(the "changing-meters" section) occured to me which fit
perfectly with the mental pictures i had of Europe and
the piece. i sat down at the computer, opened up a
Cakewalk "Piano Roll" window, and started popping in
the notes i heard in my head.

[another digression ...]

this process didn't reflect the original inspiration as
well as it usually does -- generally, i have a "homophonic"
type of idea, melody / chords / bass line, and i can drop
it into Cakewalk quite easily and quickly, usually in
"Staff" view, because to me that's the most like simply
writing it down quickly on paper, which is the way i'm
used to composing.

(to me, it's really an awful lot like writing emails!
the idea gets into my head, the hands put it onto the
computer screen, and the eyes -- and also ears in the
case of the music -- give me the feedback i need.)

but this time was a bit different -- to begin with,
the changing-meters section was a contrapuntal (not
melody/chords/bass) idea, in more of a "classical"
(really Renaissance) sense. secondly, i put in the
melody and bass for just the first few measures, and
as soon as i added the bass part, it changed the way
i was hearing the melody in my mind.

[another digression over, back to the main thread...]

i was very happy with this new section:

1) - partly because i think the counterpoint works beautifully,
and i'm always very pleased when i can "handle my craft"
so well,

2) - partly because in "Piano Roll" view i'm not thinking
so much in terms of notes/chords/theory/etc., but simply
l o o k i n g at the visual analog (in pitch-height terms)
of what i hear in my mind. to me it's more like playing
an instrument, which is to say, more like improvising than
composing (on paper), the former of which i l i k e more
because of the sonic feedback i get, and it's also always
more f u n to play (improvise) than to compose on paper.

and 3) - partly because the changing meters seem to me to
flow so naturally and unforced, and near the end of the
section result in a confusion of "where's the one?"

then little by little all the different parts seem to
find their way back, so that their "one" downbeat is
synchronized (like Beethoven, i really love to "break
the rules" as much as possible, and then try to make it
so logically inescapable that you'd never dream of having
it any other way ... and also like Beethoven, i really
enjoy amusing stuff and practical jokes in my music
to me, asymetrical and changing meters is b i g fun!).

then, just as it seems that a nice stable 4/4 meter
is finally going to arrive (for the first time since
the introduction) ... B A M !
the bongoes come in half a beat early in anticipation,
(sort of like an announcement) and the rock riff crashes in.

in that light, i think i prefer the "poorly engineered"
version, because with the clipping, the rock riff
r e a l l y d o e s "crash in".

sure, i'd like to work on this some more. for one
thing, i want to put a screaming guitar solo over the
repeated hard-rock section during the last half of the
piece. and yes, i'd like to re-engineer it to get it
sounding closer to what i hear in my mind.

but at any rate, the important point i'm making here
is that the sound of that "final" version (if there is
such a thing -- very many of my pieces have been revised
continually as i've kept listening) is now going to be
highly influenced by this current "poorly engineered"
version, because i like i t better than my original idea!

... and i think that's an interesting outcome.

hope y'all enjoyed the long ramble ...

and i r e a l l y hope many of you like the p i e c e
as much as i do. if anyone would like to help out or
contribute a solo, send me an email (dante, Dan Stearns,
Haverstick? ... all of you are welcome to do the guitar jam!)

-monz

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗graham@...

In-Reply-To: <006601c1c042$a2ce7b20$af48620c@...>
monz wrote:

> the part that sounds the worst to me, production-wise, is
> after the part in changing meters, right where it goes into
> the full-blown version of the hard-rock section for the first
> time. there's some clipping there that i don't think i can
> digitally remove -- it would require recording it over again.

I heard some annoying drop outs, which may be bass distortion.

> but then, after listening to the mp3 for a while, i actually
> liked that clipping more and more, because to me it really
> evokes the sound of explosions that happened at the
> World Trade Center on 9-11.

You could always cover them up with white noise, filtered to order.
That'd sound even more explosive.

> i couldn't get that rock riff out of my head, and heard it
> in my mind constantly as i wandered over a rather large
> chunk of Europe that month. "pictorial" ideas for developing
> it into a piece occurred to me as i traveled ... in other
> words, i was getting "programmatic" ideas (and i may have
> even thought of the lyrics while i was there too -- can't
> remember now) for what i wanted the piece to be "about".

You didn't mention any of this at the time!

> in that light, i think i prefer the "poorly engineered"
> version, because with the clipping, the rock riff
> r e a l l y d o e s "crash in".

I don't know, it's more like the other musicians see it coming and stop
playing while they get out of its way.

Aside from these occasional glitches, the main problem I hear with the
engineering is that it's too clean. As this is the second time you've
mentioned liking the accidents, have you thought of deliberately adding
distortion and noise to it? The only other way improvement I can envisage
would be to record from scratch with better synthesis (or real
instruments). I seem to have a different aesthetic on production to
everybody else round here, so ignore me if you like ...

> but at any rate, the important point i'm making here
> is that the sound of that "final" version (if there is
> such a thing -- very many of my pieces have been revised
> continually as i've kept listening) is now going to be
> highly influenced by this current "poorly engineered"
> version, because i like i t better than my original idea!

There you go again!

> ... and i think that's an interesting outcome.

Sure is. Have you tried sending the whole thing through guitar effects?

> hope y'all enjoyed the long ramble ...

Yes, I did have to clip a lot of it.

> and i r e a l l y hope many of you like the p i e c e
> as much as i do. if anyone would like to help out or
> contribute a solo, send me an email (dante, Dan Stearns,
> Haverstick? ... all of you are welcome to do the guitar jam!)

Indeed, I do like it. What timings should the solo be for? What tuning,
and is there a chord structure you want kept to?

It may be better to have the riff varying instead of cluttering up the mix
with another voice (listen to the White Stripes for homework). Or maybe
add a counter-melody to it instead of a lead. And can you get it to end
with a bang, instead of fading out like that?

Graham

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

re:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/songs/ruins11aji.mp3

> From: <graham@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:21 AM
> Subject: [MMM] Re: Cruisin' thru the Ruins
>
>
> In-Reply-To: <006601c1c042$a2ce7b20$af48620c@...>
> monz wrote:
>
> > the part that sounds the worst to me, production-wise, is
> > after the part in changing meters, right where it goes into
> > the full-blown version of the hard-rock section for the first
> > time. there's some clipping there that i don't think i can
> > digitally remove -- it would require recording it over again.
>
> I heard some annoying drop outs, which may be bass distortion.

thanks; can you specify the timings?

> > but then, after listening to the mp3 for a while, i actually
> > liked that clipping more and more, because to me it really
> > evokes the sound of explosions that happened at the
> > World Trade Center on 9-11.
>
> You could always cover them up with white noise, filtered to order.
> That'd sound even more explosive.

cool idea.

> > i couldn't get that rock riff out of my head, and heard it
> > in my mind constantly as i wandered over a rather large
> > chunk of Europe that month. "pictorial" ideas for developing
> > it into a piece occurred to me as i traveled ... in other
> > words, i was getting "programmatic" ideas (and i may have
> > even thought of the lyrics while i was there too -- can't
> > remember now) for what i wanted the piece to be "about".
>
> You didn't mention any of this at the time!

when i was together with you, Robert, and Manuel,
i was pretty caught up in the excitement of traveling all
around Europe and meeting all of you, to remember to mention
something that was in my head during the times before and
after when i was alone.

i also had my camera with me the whole time and forgot
to take pictures of all of us and of other people i met
in other places, because i was so caught up in what we
were discussing and doing. (the trips to the museums
were really great, even tho we got soaked in the rain.)

> > in that light, i think i prefer the "poorly engineered"
> > version, because with the clipping, the rock riff
> > r e a l l y d o e s "crash in".
>
> I don't know, it's more like the other musicians see it
> coming and stop playing while they get out of its way.

hmmm ... yes, i can see it that way too ... in fact, i
thing that thought did cross my mind before.

the most beautiful thing to me is that i didn't have
to struggle at all to do this -- it just happened on
its own as the original ideas i had morphed, while i
did the data input on the computer.

i love it when i'm able to compose that way, because
it feels like the machine and i form a symbiosis that
allows me to quickly pin down the fleeting mental sonic
images that fly by, in the same way that one can do it
while playing (improvising) on an instrument, or by
scribbling rapidly on music paper, if you've learned
how to do that.

the goal of my JustMusic software is to capture this
"improvisational" style of interaction between the
software and the user.

> Aside from these occasional glitches, the main problem I hear with the
> engineering is that it's too clean. As this is the second time you've
> mentioned liking the accidents, have you thought of deliberately adding
> distortion and noise to it? The only other way improvement I can envisage
> would be to record from scratch with better synthesis (or real
> instruments). I seem to have a different aesthetic on production to
> everybody else round here, so ignore me if you like ...

thanks for those suggestions. i used to have a pretty
good studio set-up, with a Yamaha TG-77, Korg DS-8,
Fatar 88-key weighted-key controller, etc., but it
was all stolen years ago. i haven't gotten around to
replacing any of it, and have been limited to what i
can do entirely on my PC.

but i'm one of those composers who feel ok with others
doing their own versions of my work, at least for most
of my pieces. so if you'd like to produce your own version
of _Cruising thru the Ruins_, go ahead, that's fine with me!
i'm eager to hear it! that goes for anyone else here as well.

> > but at any rate, the important point i'm making here
> > is that the sound of that "final" version (if there is
> > such a thing -- very many of my pieces have been revised
> > continually as i've kept listening) is now going to be
> > highly influenced by this current "poorly engineered"
> > version, because i like i t better than my original idea!
>
> There you go again!
>
> > ... and i think that's an interesting outcome.
>
> Sure is. Have you tried sending the whole thing through guitar effects?

nope. do you mean PC guitar effects, or the real deal
in hardware? if you make your own version of the song,
maybe you'll try this?

> > hope y'all enjoyed the long ramble ...
>
> Yes, I did have to clip a lot of it.

> > and i r e a l l y hope many of you like the p i e c e
> > as much as i do. if anyone would like to help out or
> > contribute a solo, send me an email (dante, Dan Stearns,
> > Haverstick? ... all of you are welcome to do the guitar jam!)
>
> Indeed, I do like it. What timings should the solo be for?
> What tuning, and is there a chord structure you want kept to?

i composed the introductino and the "changing-meters" section
strictly by a correlation between the visual representation
on the Cakewalk "Piano Roll" view and the sound when i played it.
i couldn't tell you what any of the notes are in that section.

for the hard-rock section, i thought of it in typical meantone
or 12edo terms originally (i'm not sure which, or perhaps it
was even both) :

Bm Bbm A G#dim7 Gmaj7 G#half-dim7 A7+4+5

and the second time around, the last chord is a plain A7.

but again, when i began to enter this into Cakewalk, the
individual parts were entered not in "Staff" view but in
"Piano Roll" view, and they changed a bit according to
how i was hearing and seeing what i entered.

so really, i'd have to go thru the MIDI-file and
analyze what i did, because other than what i wrote
above, i'm not sure what it is. it was very intuitive,
which is one reason why i like this piece so much.

> It may be better to have the riff varying instead of cluttering up the mix
> with another voice (listen to the White Stripes for homework). Or maybe
> add a counter-melody to it instead of a lead. And can you get it to end
> with a bang, instead of fading out like that?

i'm hoping you do your own version, so you can
put all these suggestions into it. most likely
i'll only be able to fiddle with it from now on
if: a) i get inspired, or b) one or more musician
friend/s who lives nearby and wants to jam on it gets
together with me and we do it.

-monz

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: monz <joemonz@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: Cruisin' thru the Ruins
>
>
> re:
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/songs/ruins11aji.mp3
>
>
>
> > From: <graham@...>
> > To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:21 AM
> > Subject: [MMM] Re: Cruisin' thru the Ruins
> >
> >
> > In-Reply-To: <006601c1c042$a2ce7b20$af48620c@...>
> > monz wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > and i r e a l l y hope many of you like the p i e c e
> > > as much as i do. if anyone would like to help out or
> > > contribute a solo, send me an email (dante, Dan Stearns,
> > > Haverstick? ... all of you are welcome to do the guitar jam!)
> >
> > Indeed, I do like it. What timings should the solo be for?
> > What tuning, and is there a chord structure you want kept to?
>
>
> i composed the introductino and the "changing-meters" section
> strictly by a correlation between the visual representation
> on the Cakewalk "Piano Roll" view and the sound when i played it.
> i couldn't tell you what any of the notes are in that section.
>
> for the hard-rock section, i thought of it in typical meantone
> or 12edo terms originally (i'm not sure which, or perhaps it
> was even both) :
>
> Bm Bbm A G#dim7 Gmaj7 G#half-dim7 A7+4+5
>
> and the second time around, the last chord is a plain A7.
>
>
> but again, when i began to enter this into Cakewalk, the
> individual parts were entered not in "Staff" view but in
> "Piano Roll" view, and they changed a bit according to
> how i was hearing and seeing what i entered.
>
>
> so really, i'd have to go thru the MIDI-file and
> analyze what i did, because other than what i wrote
> above, i'm not sure what it is. it was very intuitive,
> which is one reason why i like this piece so much.

of course, i should mention something about the tuning.

when i originally entered it into Cakewalk, it was in 12edo.
then John deLaubenfels ran it thru his "adaptune" software,
using "stiff vertical springs" (meaning that vertical
sonorities would be as close as possible to low-integer
JI proportions) in the 11-limit as i specified, to result
in an 11-limit adaptive-JI tuning.

since his software has to split tracks up and juggle
the notes around to separate MIDI channels, it would
be a real chore to disect the retuned MIDI-file to find
out the actual piches of all the notes. i do intend
to do that sometime, and make lattices etc., but it
will be a lot of work.

-monz

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗graham@...

In-Reply-To: <000901c1c0db$c634bb80$af48620c@...>
monz wrote:

> > I heard some annoying drop outs, which may be bass distortion.
>
> thanks; can you specify the timings?

1:21 1:39 2:10 2:53

2:30-2:35 a few not too bad examples

The transition at around 1 minute sounds forced, I don't know if it's this
problem.

> but i'm one of those composers who feel ok with others
> doing their own versions of my work, at least for most
> of my pieces. so if you'd like to produce your own version
> of _Cruising thru the Ruins_, go ahead, that's fine with me!
> i'm eager to hear it! that goes for anyone else here as well.

I don't expect I'll have the time. I'm in the mood for getting some more
music done this weekend, but that'll probably be my own. What I envisage
would mean processing each individual layer separately, and I don't have
the bandwidth to receive them in that form. Distortion can be good if you
contrast it with some clean sounds, and it also introduces a lot of
artefacts if you apply it to complex sounds.

There are people here who could do the standard reverb and compression for
you, but it'll only add a "professional" sheen to what you already have.

> > Sure is. Have you tried sending the whole thing through guitar
> > effects?
>
> nope. do you mean PC guitar effects, or the real deal
> in hardware? if you make your own version of the song,
> maybe you'll try this?

Whatever you have to hand. It's more to get an idea of what can be done
than to expect a good end product that way.

> for the hard-rock section, i thought of it in typical meantone
> or 12edo terms originally (i'm not sure which, or perhaps it
> was even both) :
>
> Bm Bbm A G#dim7 Gmaj7 G#half-dim7 A7+4+5
>
> and the second time around, the last chord is a plain A7.
>
> but again, when i began to enter this into Cakewalk, the
> individual parts were entered not in "Staff" view but in
> "Piano Roll" view, and they changed a bit according to
> how i was hearing and seeing what i entered.

Oh, meantone? Most of my stuff's set up for Miracle now.

> so really, i'd have to go thru the MIDI-file and
> analyze what i did, because other than what i wrote
> above, i'm not sure what it is. it was very intuitive,
> which is one reason why i like this piece so much.

Your best bet's probably to add the solos the same way.

> i'm hoping you do your own version, so you can
> put all these suggestions into it. most likely
> i'll only be able to fiddle with it from now on
> if: a) i get inspired, or b) one or more musician
> friend/s who lives nearby and wants to jam on it gets
> together with me and we do it.

I'll probably write my own things showing the same ideas instead.

Graham

Cruisin' thru the Ruins

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗graham@...

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗graham@...