Re: [MMM] Automated counterpoint

I thought maybe I should clarify why i am pursuing this. The choosing of a
scale is what you might call a pre compositional idea in that in most case
it is decided upon before the actual composition is done.

It seemed to me one of the few other things we can share and can be
applied to any scale or tuning system are such pre compositional games. I
have always enjoy Bartok's
Microcosmos for this reason as it is loaded with such devices in miniature.

Either I am part of a minority to think in such ways or people don't
like to discuss them as being too personal of their musical language. I can
respect that but I think i got more of an understanding of the two that did
respond that any scale or other post. What someone does when they are moving
tells me more alot more than when they are standing still:) Maybe as someone
who really doesn't like the MP.3 sound nor write works short enough to put
them up, thought there might be other ways of us to interact.
I guess that is the bottom line for what i wanted to say, sorry to be so
wordy.

Hello Robert!
This is quite fascinating. I am not sure i completely follow but it
sounds like you have a cross between a canon by augmentation and the eastern
idea of nuclear melody which i believe we discussed recently. Does this
seem right?

a question also. When you say........

For instance, the marimba with string quartet has a very straightforward
fractal tune with the seed just 0 1 0 in scale degrees
in the five parts -

I am not sure if 0 means the same note repeated or a reference to the tonic
as in 0 10
meaning C D C.

One thing similar I have played with is having a two part counterpuntal line

played by 3 or four voices in unison but where the unison involve different
voices.
the simplest would be one above and one below with a third alternating
unison between the two. Maybe a fourth alternating unison with the ones the
third is not playing. The question then becomes what are the two melodies,
the one above and below or the two alternating. a musical relativity.

Robert Walker wrote:

> HI there,
>
> Since FTS does a type of automated counterpoint, maybe it might
> be interesting to say a bit about how it does it.
>
> It's based on teh idea of passing notes. In the original form,
> all the parts start in unison or at octaves (or more generally
> non octaves, whateve is the interval of equivalence).
>
> Then the first, fastest part plays its seed above that unison / octave,
> as a passing note. The second part then plays its second note,
> with the first part joining it to start a new seed.
>
> That unison of second and first part is a poitn of rest, but also
> a passing note with respect to the third part.
>
> When the second part finishes its seed, the third part moves on to
> its next note, where it is joined by the first two parts, so
> now the three parts are all playig a unison / octave passing note
> with respect to the fourth part..
>
> So it goes on. When the last part goes onto its second note,
> then it is still felt as an intermediate note because the seed
> has just started, and there is lots still to go.
>
> Even wtih one part only playing, one hears some kind of
> pattern superimposed from the first notes of each seed,
> which gives a kind of counterpoint to the tune.
>
> YOu can hear lots of examples in real audio format at
> http://www.tunesmithy.connectfree.co.uk/index.htm
> or play them in FTS.
>
> For instance, the marimba with string quartet has a very straightforward
> fractal tune with the seed just 0 1 0 in scale degrees
> in the five parts - it is a kind of demo of the idea to show
> how it works.
>
> The Basson solo with harp celesta and glockenspiel
> one has a fractal tune, but with the parts playing notes from
> any of the layers of ornamentation rather than in strict
> succession, and the result is quite an intriguing
> feeling of counterpoint - but actually it is still based
> on this passing notes / octaves / unison idea. So,
> nearly all the fractal tunes are based on it in
> one way or another.
>
> For an example in mp3 format (which is best to hear how
> they were when I made them, or use an SB LIve!):
>
> http://mp3.com.au/FractalTuneSmithy/Windchimesscale/
>
> All the notes of the seed are the same length, however the notes
> are played just a little faster as they get higher in pitch,
> - this effect is not very pronounced. It also uses
> an echo effect - each phrase staccato as it has
> alternate rests and notes, and then if the slower
> seed has a rest, the faster seed plays repeats the
> previous seed again quietly, and if you have several
> simultaneous rests in the parts, the top part will play
> very quietly. So, it keeps varying in volume - but not in
> a dramatic way either, all quite gentle.
>
> Now, one can go on to do the same thing with non octave scales.
> Another idea is to have the parts at some other interval
> rather than the octave
>
> If one has a scale like
>
> 1/1 6/5 11/8 3/2 7/4 2/1.
>
> which I`ve been exploring recently, one can try placing the
> parts three notes apart in the scale like this:
>
> 1/1 6/5 11/8 3/2 7/4 2/1 12/5 11/4 3/1 7/2 4/1 24/5 11/2
>
> A B C D E
>
> so A:B is 3/2, B:C is 8/5, C:D is 35/24, D:E is 11/7 etc, so the parts
> are at varied intervals and chords at the points of rest where they
> come together, so that they aren`t all the same, at octaves (and
> don`t have to be "consonances" just because one is resting at them).
>
> Then, lots of other things I explore, like arpeggios in the scale
> that ascend and descend in different ways. Here, one could
> ascend by 0 1 3 and descend by 0 2 3.
>
> Here it is:
> http://www.mp3.com.au/elevenlimitpentatonic
>
> So basically it is a very simple idea. It's not an attempt to
> make music following traditional rules of harmony at all, but
> making something new that will work with a fractal
> tune.
>
> BTW what makes it fractal is that each part plays the same tune
> as all the others, with varied speed.
>
> The musical seed gets transformed as it moves up and down in the scale,
> but the same thing is happening in all the parts, so they still all
> play the same tune - the same notes, at varied speeds.
>
> This corresponds to visual
> fractals that look the same at all scales - the fractal tunes
> sound the same at all speeds (if one had parts to play for each
> of the layers of ornamentation).
>
> There are various notions of fractal, ones that are exactly the
> sane at every level, like FTS, or ones that have similar
> structures at every level, but not identical - the
> word fractal is a general neame for a field of study
> rather than a precise mathematical term as such, though
> terms like fractal dimension etc. have been given precise
> mathematical definitions.
>
> There are lots of fractal music programs, however I wonder if
> FTS is unique so far in using _exactly_ similar fractals to make
> music?
>
> That's for the basic form of the fractal tune idea. The later
> transformations and remappings and fractal rhythms and polyrhythms
> make fractal tunes that are no longer exactly self similar,
> however, they are still based on the same passing notes idea
> for harmony / counterpoint.
>
> I'd be interested to know what other techniques are used for
> harmony / counterpoint in fractal tunes. Do
> interesting harmonic structures arise naturally from, say,
> the structure of the mandelbrot set or whatever?
> Or, does the counterpoint need to be added in in some way?
>
> When composing / improvising, I may to some extent use the passing
> notes idea, - I think I do while improvising.
>
> Idea is that you let your "mistakes" flow into the piece,
> so that you treat them as passing notes, and a source
> for inspiration and invention.
>
> Also, I like passing from less to more chromaticism and
> back again while improvising. Result is that one
> treats the accidentals as passing notes rather than
> changes of key, so that is also like some of the fractal
> tunes.
>
> Others, I do do kind of key changes, e.g. if yu have
> an ordinary type scale, but then make it a non ascending one
> that goes up to the 2/1, then down to the 3/2 for the repeat
> you will go up one key in the circle of fifths whenever you
> go past the end of the repeat of the scale, and down one
> when you come back again. "Familiar territory" does this
> - no mp3 yet, but its on the real audio page.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Kg,

{you wrote...}
>Either I am part of a minority to think in such ways or people don't like >to discuss them as being too personal of their musical language.

There's at least another pathway as well, which I fit into: your queries are pretty deep, and I've been mulling them over. I have a couple of thoughts to share, but babbling without focus (hey, I do it too often already!) wouldn't help you out. So give me a day or so to be semi-coherent, and maybe others will have some ideas as well.

Quietude doesn't always indicate you are being ignored or have spoken a mundane thought...

>Maybe as someone who really doesn't like the MP.3 sound nor write works >short enough to put them up, thought there might be other ways of us to >interact.

Kg, I certainly understand and honor your feelings about those two items, but let me just ask you this: the .pdf files don't look *exactly* like Erv's writings/drawings, and they aren't the same size or clarity, but it most certainly is a true bonus that you've shared them (and Erv, too!). And maybe each isn't the entire piece of the work(s) but a part, and worth sharing. Maybe if you viewed the soundfiles this way, and maybe if you could excerpt a portion (without being disrespectful) of one of your new pieces, it would feel to you in a similar light. I know that most everyone would enjoy them (I wonder: how many people on this list have even *heard* music from Anaphoria???).

So, just some thoughts dancing around the subject. Whatever feels right to you is right for me, just wanting you to know that your ideas/germs/questions are valid if not immediately answered or bantered around...

Bestest,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_2024.html#2025

> Kg,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Either I am part of a minority to think in such ways or people
don't like
> >to discuss them as being too personal of their musical language.
>
> There's at least another pathway as well, which I fit into: your
queries
> are pretty deep, and I've been mulling them over. I have a couple
of
> thoughts to share, but babbling without focus (hey, I do it too
often
> already!) wouldn't help you out. So give me a day or so to be
> semi-coherent, and maybe others will have some ideas as well.
>
> Quietude doesn't always indicate you are being ignored or have
spoken a
> mundane thought...
>
> >Maybe as someone who really doesn't like the MP.3 sound nor write
works
> >short enough to put them up, thought there might be other ways of
us to
> >interact.
>
> Kg, I certainly understand and honor your feelings about those two
items,
> but let me just ask you this: the .pdf files don't look *exactly*
like
> Erv's writings/drawings, and they aren't the same size or clarity,
but it
> most certainly is a true bonus that you've shared them (and Erv,
too!). And
> maybe each isn't the entire piece of the work(s) but a part, and
worth
> sharing. Maybe if you viewed the soundfiles this way, and maybe if
you
> could excerpt a portion (without being disrespectful) of one of
your new
> pieces, it would feel to you in a similar light. I know that most
everyone
> would enjoy them (I wonder: how many people on this list have even
*heard*
> music from Anaphoria???).
>
> So, just some thoughts dancing around the subject. Whatever feels
right to
> you is right for me, just wanting you to know that your
> ideas/germs/questions are valid if not immediately answered or
bantered
> around...
>
> Bestest,
> Jon

****Quite frankly, although Kraig will probably not agree with this,
I belive his pieces on the Tuning Punks in .mp3 format came out quite
nicely and, personally, I've listened to them many times in this
convenient format. (Truly, the sounds isn't as good as his CDs, but
it's OK by me...)

JP

Jon!
I am sure you didn't think i necessarily took it this way, I assumed
mainly that maybe people don't use such methods all that much which would have
been a surprise to me. I love surprises and enjoying being shown that i was
wrong.
There is a record store in pasadena i sometimes go by on friday nights
where this young self educated composer works . He just loves the old masters
and since on one of these lists, it was mentioned how there has been
recordings of Beethoven on period instruments, i thought i would ask him about
them. Boy! Did i push a button!
He went into this big thing how the interpretations were shit and had none of
the spirit that the recording he happen to have on. He thought they were
hiding from their lack of being able to raise to what the music demanded and
thought they were chopping it down to there level or lack of vision. He
pointed out , how just listening to the music, it calls to be big and he would
have used a bigger orchestra if he had a chance. I really agreed with the
examples he brought up as they came up on the stereo. He felt that once the
composer is dead , the piece should have a life of its own.
Now in most cultures this is exactly how the music is, it goes into the
village and either dies or lives and while living changes. While copyrights
protect artists from exploitation by those who can perhaps it is good to see
so much music escape the lawsuits when so often we hear the same songs over
and over again.
As someone who has had to bear and watched other have to bear horrible
renditions of there music , it was good to be reminded of the other side of
the coin from my own.
The true spirit behind any work of music, a pure magical entity which can
carry this spirit free from and sometimes despite its creator, goes
unrecognized as valid. Instead we are left with "objects" with even music
becoming an object to preserve without any regard for what the spirit behind
it is. these "dreamers" that remain.

"Jonathan M. Szanto" wrote:

> Quietude doesn't always indicate you are being ignored or have spoken a
> mundane thought...
>
> So, just some thoughts dancing around the subject. Whatever feels right to
> you is right for me, just wanting you to know that your
> ideas/germs/questions are valid if not immediately answered or bantered
> around...

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm