generalized MIDI keyboard: your input wanted

Is there really only one person even remotely interested in a modular generalized MIDI keyboard controller? I thought more people wanted something like this: <http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html> Please join the forum and share your thoughts at <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=7>

Thanks,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

Having played Kurt's, I don't have much positive to say about it,
I'm afraid. However there are two positive things I can say:

1. It works.
2. The price is right.

-Carl

At 11:15 PM 1/17/2008, you wrote:
>Is there really only one person even remotely interested in a modular
>generalized MIDI keyboard controller? I thought more people wanted
>something like this: <http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html> Please
>join the forum and share your thoughts at <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>
>
>Thanks,
>Aaron Hunt
>H-Pi Instruments

The topic is not the Tonal Plexus, it is a keyboard that
does not yet exist, tentatively called the mini MOD:
<http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>
<http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

P.S. Since it was brought up, the 'Kurt' referred to
here is Kurt Bigler, who told me within an hour of
playing his TPX controller along with his home-brew
digital organ rig, he was sold on the 205 layout.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Having played Kurt's, I don't have much positive to say about it,
> I'm afraid. However there are two positive things I can say:
>
> 1. It works.
> 2. The price is right.
>
> -Carl
>
> At 11:15 PM 1/17/2008, you wrote:
> >Is there really only one person even remotely interested in a modular
> >generalized MIDI keyboard controller? I thought more people wanted
> >something like this: <http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html> Please
> >join the forum and share your thoughts at <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/
>viewforum.php?f=7>
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Aaron Hunt
> >H-Pi Instruments
>

I'm interested in this sort of thing, but I have reservations about
the lack of velocity sensitive weighted action...what you describe
might be fine for organ style playing, but I'd miss my pianist side
view of the world....

I'm curious, Carl, what you found positive and negative besides the
price, etc.

Has anyone else played this hardware?

BTW, I think it's great what you are doing, Aaron, I just think I need
to hold out on this kind of thing until money and space allow me to
have the right equipment, and for me that means some velocity
sensitivity as well...the Haken Continuum is damn expesive, but looks
more like the kind of thing I would want to go for. The ability to
also do finger vibrato is an awesome plus, too.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt"
<aaronhunt@...> wrote:
>
> The topic is not the Tonal Plexus, it is a keyboard that
> does not yet exist, tentatively called the mini MOD:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>
> <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
> P.S. Since it was brought up, the 'Kurt' referred to
> here is Kurt Bigler, who told me within an hour of
> playing his TPX controller along with his home-brew
> digital organ rig, he was sold on the 205 layout.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > Having played Kurt's, I don't have much positive to say about it,
> > I'm afraid. However there are two positive things I can say:
> >
> > 1. It works.
> > 2. The price is right.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> > At 11:15 PM 1/17/2008, you wrote:
> > >Is there really only one person even remotely interested in a
modular
> > >generalized MIDI keyboard controller? I thought more people wanted
> > >something like this: <http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html> Please
> > >join the forum and share your thoughts at
<http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/
> >viewforum.php?f=7>
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Aaron Hunt
> > >H-Pi Instruments
> >
>

Hi AKJ. I've played the Continuum and I loved it -- it
is really a fantastic instrument for bending pitches around.
But having no keys, it certainly is a different beast to play.
I tried to convince the inventor to let me write software for
it that would allow the user to map the surface into any
number of regions for discreet microtonal scales, but he
didn't take to the idea. He told me he conceived of it as a
continuous pitch instrument, and that's how he wants it
to stay.

Also, Aaron, I remember you mentioned wanting some
kind of dynamic retuning for TBX1. EPC1 allows dynamic
retuning, although it is not algorithmically based, it
allows realtime control for regular keyboards connected
to a TPX.

At any rate, I know you and others have good ideas
about what you want from microtonal products, and
I really want to encourage everyone to share ideas.
I know it's a pain to join another forum and it may
seem like TL or MMM is the best place to discuss such
things, but I hope more of you will join and post on
the H-Pi Prototypes and New Product Ideas forum:
<http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=7>
It will help maintain focus and keeps all the information
available to everyone all in one place.

The more I hear from people, the more I can design
things people really want, and sell at prices people can
really afford.

That reminds me I should announce that the price for
TBX1 has dropped again from 329 to 299 USD. This is
the second drop, as it started at 349. So, with more
people buying, the prices do come down! Now, if I
could just get them in stock... the shipping from
Bulgaria has been delayed already 2 weeks behind
schedule!

Cheers,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> I'm interested in this sort of thing, but I have reservations about
> the lack of velocity sensitive weighted action...what you describe
> might be fine for organ style playing, but I'd miss my pianist side
> view of the world....
>
> I'm curious, Carl, what you found positive and negative besides the
> price, etc.
>
> Has anyone else played this hardware?
>
> BTW, I think it's great what you are doing, Aaron, I just think I need
> to hold out on this kind of thing until money and space allow me to
> have the right equipment, and for me that means some velocity
> sensitivity as well...the Haken Continuum is damn expesive, but looks
> more like the kind of thing I would want to go for. The ability to
> also do finger vibrato is an awesome plus, too.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt"
> <aaronhunt@> wrote:
> >
> > The topic is not the Tonal Plexus, it is a keyboard that
> > does not yet exist, tentatively called the mini MOD:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>
> >
> > Yours,
> > Aaron Hunt
> > H-Pi Instruments
> >
> > P.S. Since it was brought up, the 'Kurt' referred to
> > here is Kurt Bigler, who told me within an hour of
> > playing his TPX controller along with his home-brew
> > digital organ rig, he was sold on the 205 layout.
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Having played Kurt's, I don't have much positive to say about it,
> > > I'm afraid. However there are two positive things I can say:
> > >
> > > 1. It works.
> > > 2. The price is right.
> > >
> > > -Carl
> > >
> > > At 11:15 PM 1/17/2008, you wrote:
> > > >Is there really only one person even remotely interested in a
> modular
> > > >generalized MIDI keyboard controller? I thought more people wanted
> > > >something like this: <http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html> Please
> > > >join the forum and share your thoughts at
> <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/
> > >viewforum.php?f=7>
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Aaron Hunt
> > > >H-Pi Instruments
> > >
> >
>

At 10:16 AM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
>The topic is not the Tonal Plexus, it is a keyboard that
>does not yet exist, tentatively called the mini MOD:
><http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>
><http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>
>
>Yours,
>Aaron Hunt
>H-Pi Instruments

The topic wasn't mentioned in your post (or did I miss it?).
But my comments would apply to this... is there any reason
not to call it a 1-octave tonal plexus?

-Carl

At 01:44 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
>I'm interested in this sort of thing, but I have reservations about
>the lack of velocity sensitive weighted action...what you describe
>might be fine for organ style playing, but I'd miss my pianist side
>view of the world....
>
>I'm curious, Carl, what you found positive and negative besides the
>price, etc.

The buttons are more like switches. Perfectly serviceable, but
not very musical. Also they are too small. 205/octave is more
than I want, and the extra complexity and cost could have been
put toward better buttons.

>BTW, I think it's great what you are doing, Aaron, I just think I need
>to hold out on this kind of thing until money and space allow me to
>have the right equipment, and for me that means some velocity
>sensitivity as well...the Haken Continuum is damn expesive, but looks
>more like the kind of thing I would want to go for. The ability to
>also do finger vibrato is an awesome plus, too.

Note that the Continuum is not velocity sensitive, but rather
pressure (or still more accurately, z-displacement) sensitive.

-Carl

At 03:31 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
>Hi AKJ. I've played the Continuum and I loved it -- it
>is really a fantastic instrument for bending pitches around.
>But having no keys, it certainly is a different beast to play.
>I tried to convince the inventor to let me write software for
>it that would allow the user to map the surface into any
>number of regions for discreet microtonal scales, but he
>didn't take to the idea. He told me he conceived of it as a
>continuous pitch instrument, and that's how he wants it
>to stay.

Strange that Lippold told you that, given that it comes with
a 12-ET discrete mode out of the box.

-Carl

sounds like a good prospect for reverse engeneering and add what you want.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma [mailto:carl@...]
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 02:22 AM
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: generalized MIDI keyboard: your input wanted

At 03:31 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
>Hi AKJ. I've played the Continuum and I loved it -- it
>is really a fantastic instrument for bending pitches around.
>But having no keys, it certainly is a different beast to play.
>I tried to convince the inventor to let me write software for
>it that would allow the user to map the surface into any
>number of regions for discreet microtonal scales, but he
>didn't take to the idea. He told me he conceived of it as a
>continuous pitch instrument, and that's how he wants it
>to stay.

Strange that Lippold told you that, given that it comes with
a 12-ET discrete mode out of the box.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 01:44 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
> >I'm interested in this sort of thing, but I have reservations about
> >the lack of velocity sensitive weighted action...what you describe
> >might be fine for organ style playing, but I'd miss my pianist side
> >view of the world....
> >
> >I'm curious, Carl, what you found positive and negative besides the
> >price, etc.
>
> The buttons are more like switches. Perfectly serviceable, but
> not very musical. Also they are too small. 205/octave is more
> than I want, and the extra complexity and cost could have been
> put toward better buttons.

Wait---so it can't be remapped to <205/oct? That's a drawback, I agree.

> >BTW, I think it's great what you are doing, Aaron, I just think I need
> >to hold out on this kind of thing until money and space allow me to
> >have the right equipment, and for me that means some velocity
> >sensitivity as well...the Haken Continuum is damn expesive, but looks
> >more like the kind of thing I would want to go for. The ability to
> >also do finger vibrato is an awesome plus, too.
>
> Note that the Continuum is not velocity sensitive, but rather
> pressure (or still more accurately, z-displacement) sensitive.

But that expressivity dimension is more than there, since you can do
y-axis and z-axis mappings of filtering, volume, etc.--a single switch
has limited use, even though the price may be right. I'd use it for
organ, harpsichord, and, well, that's it.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > At 01:44 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
> > >I'm interested in this sort of thing, but I have reservations about
> > >the lack of velocity sensitive weighted action...what you describe
> > >might be fine for organ style playing, but I'd miss my pianist side
> > >view of the world....
> > >
> > >I'm curious, Carl, what you found positive and negative besides the
> > >price, etc.
> >
> > The buttons are more like switches. Perfectly serviceable, but
> > not very musical. Also they are too small. 205/octave is more
> > than I want, and the extra complexity and cost could have been
> > put toward better buttons.
>
> Wait---so it can't be remapped to <205/oct?

NO. Of course it can be mapped to anything you want.
This is made perfectly clear all over the website. See:
http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28software.html
Download TPXE software and see for yourself:
http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
As for the buttons, see also here:
http://www.h-pi.com/TPXfaq.html

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

> > >BTW, I think it's great what you are doing, Aaron, I just think I need
> > >to hold out on this kind of thing until money and space allow me to
> > >have the right equipment, and for me that means some velocity
> > >sensitivity as well...the Haken Continuum is damn expesive, but looks
> > >more like the kind of thing I would want to go for. The ability to
> > >also do finger vibrato is an awesome plus, too.
> >
> > Note that the Continuum is not velocity sensitive, but rather
> > pressure (or still more accurately, z-displacement) sensitive.
>
> But that expressivity dimension is more than there, since you can do
> y-axis and z-axis mappings of filtering, volume, etc.--a single switch
> has limited use, even though the price may be right. I'd use it for
> organ, harpsichord, and, well, that's it.
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 10:16 AM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
> >The topic is not the Tonal Plexus, it is a keyboard that
> >does not yet exist, tentatively called the mini MOD:
> ><http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>
> ><http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>
> >
> >Yours,
> >Aaron Hunt
> >H-Pi Instruments
>
> The topic wasn't mentioned in your post (or did I miss it?).

You missed it. From your post one can only assume you did not
visit the link and read the text there.

> But my comments would apply to this... is there any reason
> not to call it a 1-octave tonal plexus?

If you visit the link and read the text you will see that the
mini MOD is clearly NOT a Tonal Plexus keyboard, and I state
that fact very clearly in plain language at the beginning of the
description. Please visit and read:
<http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, kraiggrady@... wrote:
>
> sounds like a good prospect for reverse engeneering and add what you want.
>

Remapping the Continuum can still be done in software.
When I visited Lippold in 2002, he whipped up a Kyma patch
for 19ET sine tones in about 5 minutes. I thought it was
wonderful, and that's when I offered to develop software,
but he didn't take to it. My idea would be to have something
like TPXE but for the Continuum.

Unfortunately we could not legally sell a similar instrument
without quite expensive licensing as Lippold holds the patent
on his design.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Lumma [mailto:carl@...]
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 02:22 AM
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: generalized MIDI keyboard: your input wanted
>
> At 03:31 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
> >Hi AKJ. I've played the Continuum and I loved it -- it
> >is really a fantastic instrument for bending pitches around.
> >But having no keys, it certainly is a different beast to play.
> >I tried to convince the inventor to let me write software for
> >it that would allow the user to map the surface into any
> >number of regions for discreet microtonal scales, but he
> >didn't take to the idea. He told me he conceived of it as a
> >continuous pitch instrument, and that's how he wants it
> >to stay.
>
> Strange that Lippold told you that, given that it comes with
> a 12-ET discrete mode out of the box.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Aaron wrote...

>> >I'm curious, Carl, what you found positive and negative besides the
>> >price, etc.
>>
>> The buttons are more like switches. Perfectly serviceable, but
>> not very musical. Also they are too small. 205/octave is more
>> than I want, and the extra complexity and cost could have been
>> put toward better buttons.
>
>Wait---so it can't be remapped to < 205/oct? That's a drawback,
>I agree.

It can. But the extra complexity could have been put toward better
buttons.

>> Note that the Continuum is not velocity sensitive, but rather
>> pressure (or still more accurately, z-displacement) sensitive.
>
>But that expressivity dimension is more than there, since you can do
>y-axis and z-axis mappings of filtering, volume, etc.--a single switch
>has limited use, even though the price may be right.

True.

-Carl

>> >The topic is not the Tonal Plexus, it is a keyboard that
>> >does not yet exist, tentatively called the mini MOD:
>> ><http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>
>> ><http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>
>> >
>> >Yours,
>> >Aaron Hunt
>> >H-Pi Instruments
>>
>> The topic wasn't mentioned in your post (or did I miss it?).
>
>You missed it. From your post one can only assume you did not
>visit the link and read the text there.

I said post. I never said I followed the link. If you want
to discuss something here please be forthcoming about it.

>> But my comments would apply to this... is there any reason
>> not to call it a 1-octave tonal plexus?
>
>If you visit the link and read the text you will see that the
>mini MOD is clearly NOT a Tonal Plexus keyboard,

Even subsequently when I *did* follow your link, I arrived at
a page with the EPC1 at the top. Have you not heard of anchor
links?

"Nor do they specifically implement the 211 keys per octave,
205ET JND Master Tuning of the Tonal Plexus keyboards. Instead,
the focus of these devices is on generic or generalized layouts
which are in the public domain"

So the 'Plexus layout is not in the public domain? Exactly
what sort of IP rights do you assert over it?

To (finally) answer your question, I would say I'm more interested
in the MOD than the Plexus. Because the buttons are apparently
of uniform size and height I can map it more flexibly.

I'm even more interested in the "2003 Lever Action Keys Tonal
Plexus Prototype". You say you determined the keys were too
narrow, but they do not appear more narrow than the buttons on
the current Plexus.

-Carl

>Unfortunately we could not legally sell a similar instrument
>without quite expensive licensing as Lippold holds the patent
>on his design.

Lippold's patent does not cover continuous-surface-type instruments
in general, though it does protect his (rather ingenious) design.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> >> >The topic is not the Tonal Plexus, it is a keyboard that
> >> >does not yet exist, tentatively called the mini MOD:
> >> ><http://www.h-pi.com/prototypes.html>
> >> ><http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>
> >> >
> >> >Yours,
> >> >Aaron Hunt
> >> >H-Pi Instruments
> >>
> >> The topic wasn't mentioned in your post (or did I miss it?).
> >
> >You missed it. From your post one can only assume you did not
> >visit the link and read the text there.
>
> I said post. I never said I followed the link. If you want
> to discuss something here please be forthcoming about it.

When links are included in a post, the idea is that you click
on them to see what's there. Reasonable and intelligent
people on lists generally consider this "forthcoming".

>
> >> But my comments would apply to this... is there any reason
> >> not to call it a 1-octave tonal plexus?
> >
> >If you visit the link and read the text you will see that the
> >mini MOD is clearly NOT a Tonal Plexus keyboard,
>
> Even subsequently when I *did* follow your link, I arrived at
> a page with the EPC1 at the top. Have you not heard of anchor
> links?

Have you not heard of scrolling down a web page?

> To (finally) answer your question, I would say I'm more interested
> in the MOD than the Plexus. Because the buttons are apparently
> of uniform size and height I can map it more flexibly.
>
> I'm even more interested in the "2003 Lever Action Keys Tonal
> Plexus Prototype". You say you determined the keys were too
> narrow, but they do not appear more narrow than the buttons on
> the current Plexus.

Levers and buttons are mechanically two very different things. If
you'd like to discuss the lever action stuff, or any of the prototypes,
as I put there in the original post, this should take place on the
H-Pi forum:
<http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/ >viewforum.php?f=7>

Sincerely,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> >Unfortunately we could not legally sell a similar instrument
> >without quite expensive licensing as Lippold holds the patent
> >on his design.
>
> Lippold's patent does not cover continuous-surface-type instruments
> in general, though it does protect his (rather ingenious) design.
>

Yes, I know. I have a copy of Lippold's patent and have read it twice.
I also have copies of numerous other patents that do cover other
types of continuous surfaces, some of which are cited in Lippold's
patent, and I have read all of those. Apart from the multitouch
interactive table / Jazz Mutant / iPhone technology, which is
something quite different, Lippold's ingenious method is the
best of the bunch.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

At 11:33 AM 1/19/2008, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>>
>> >Unfortunately we could not legally sell a similar instrument
>> >without quite expensive licensing as Lippold holds the patent
>> >on his design.
>>
>> Lippold's patent does not cover continuous-surface-type instruments
>> in general, though it does protect his (rather ingenious) design.
>
>Yes, I know. I have a copy of Lippold's patent and have read it twice.
>I also have copies of numerous other patents that do cover other
>types of continuous surfaces, some of which are cited in Lippold's
>patent, and I have read all of those. Apart from the multitouch
>interactive table / Jazz Mutant / iPhone technology, which is
>something quite different, Lippold's ingenious method is the
>best of the bunch.

It's the best of the bunch, but that doesn't mean it's the only
way to do it.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 11:33 AM 1/19/2008, you wrote:
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Unfortunately we could not legally sell a similar instrument
> >> >without quite expensive licensing as Lippold holds the patent
> >> >on his design.
> >>
> >> Lippold's patent does not cover continuous-surface-type instruments
> >> in general, though it does protect his (rather ingenious) design.
> >
> >Yes, I know. I have a copy of Lippold's patent and have read it twice.
> >I also have copies of numerous other patents that do cover other
> >types of continuous surfaces, some of which are cited in Lippold's
> >patent, and I have read all of those. Apart from the multitouch
> >interactive table / Jazz Mutant / iPhone technology, which is
> >something quite different, Lippold's ingenious method is the
> >best of the bunch.
>
> It's the best of the bunch, but that doesn't mean it's the only
> way to do it.
>
> -Carl
>

The point I was trying to make was that many other ways
of doing it are also patented and would require licensing.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

At 02:29 PM 1/19/2008, you wrote:
>To be fair, your comments about the buttons themselves would
>also apply to the MOD. Essentially similar components to those
>on the Tonal Plexus would be used.

Why not use buttons of the same size and height? Or: if these
do vary, what pattern will be used?

-Carl

Aaron Andrew-

I noticed in the video from your H-Pi site the lack of use of the
thumb in the 'Goldberg Variations' theme. It does seem that a flat
surface with round buttons might make this problematic, the only
reason it isn't a problem on a standard Halberstadt keyboard being the
sufficient latitude of thumb and finger placement due to front to back
key length.

Can you comment on the place of thumbs in Plexus technique? Are there
any possible alternate mappings that would allow more thumb use? As a
pianist, it seems unthinkable to go back 500 years and generally avoid
using the most powerful aid to keyboard technique that was ever
dreamed up. Of course, one video might not be the whole story...but,
just glancing at the default mapping, it looks like thumbs might help
with flats, double flats and triple flats, and might even be necessary
in those scenarios, but be somewhat awkward on naturals, and damn near
torturous on sharps. It really would kind of change the way keyboard
music would be conceived, and obviously, there would be an awful lot
of typical traditional keyboard textures or pieces that would be
mighty awkward on the Plexus.

It also looks like stretches and typical chord layouts being
translated to the plexus would introduce some serious issues at some
point.

The other question would be---if one chooses a remap, and not to use
205-edo, can the color scheme on the front be changed for visual aid
purposes, or IOW, what can be done to aid the obvious process of
having to relearn the pitch space in those cases?

best,
AKJ

AKJ,

I would really prefer this take place on
the H-Pi forum, as I have asked many times,
<http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
as that is the designated place to discuss the
Tonal Plexus on the internet where my
involvement is clearly defined, but I will
answer your questions here.

Almost all of the other videos clearly show
use of the thumb, for example:
<http://www.h-pi.com/video/mmscales.mov>
<http://www.h-pi.com/video/41commas.mov>

There is certainly a need for more videos showing
Tonal Plexus playing technique, how the different
key elevations are used in playing and how the
master tuning works. A short set of short videos
was made for this but the quality was bad. The plan
is for a whole set of tutorial videos.

I comment on Plexus action here:
<http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28faq.html>

Plexus technique is different from a piano,
for sure, which is to be expected since an
array of buttons is not a lever action
Halberstadt. Let's please refrain from making
statements such as "going back 500 years".

As for playing chords, of course you can still
play chords, but they do not feel the same as
chords on a piano, because a Plexus is not a
piano. On a piano there are certain chord
voicings which are more comfortable to play
than others. Same for a Plexus, but the voicings
which may be comfortable are not necessarily
the same as the voicings which are comfortable
on a piano. What's nice of course is that you
can play chords that _aren't_on_ a piano:
<http://www.h-pi.com/video/13thchords.mov>

I don't anticipate rewriting of piano pieces for
the Plexus. It is a new instrument which will
engender new music. The videos showing Bach
and Pachabel may be a bit misleading; they are
up there because they are things people know
which I had practiced a little and could play at
the time while the camera was rolling. Again,
a lot more new and better videos need to be
made. There is only so much time in a day, but
I will try to get some new things up.

To answer your last remark about remapping and
changing the graphics of the key layout, the
idea is that the layout doesn't need to change
and shouldn't change. It is actually an adaptive
tuning layout, meaning that if you select 205ET
or 19ET or 17ET or 72ET and play the same
pattern on the keyboard, you play the same
melodic contour with the pitches taken from
the tuning in question. To get a better sense of
that, you can download TPXE and take a look at
what are called "region maps".
<http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html>
The region map list is the box in the upper
right corner of the screen, as shown here:
<http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28software.html>
If you check the boxes and click the arrows
you will see the region maps change.
Moreover, the structure of the keyboard is
theoretically unified with a systematic
taxonomy for all pitches and intervals and
has a 1 to 1 key correspondence with
MegaScore, so if you write in MegaScore
for a tuning map other than 205ET or a
variant thereof, it is true scordatura.

As for the idea of overlaying some other graphics
over the keys, this could be done if you had a
template, but the colors of the keys would remain
the same. Moreover, it would be a lot of work,
require that you send us files, cost money,
and probably not look very good. But yes it could
be done.

Once again, please join the forum:
<http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>

Sincerely,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
"Aaron Krister Johnson" wrote:
> Aaron Andrew-
>
> I noticed in the video from your H-Pi site the lack of use of the
> thumb in the 'Goldberg Variations' theme. It does seem that a flat
> surface with round buttons might make this problematic, the only
> reason it isn't a problem on a standard Halberstadt keyboard being the
> sufficient latitude of thumb and finger placement due to front to back
> key length.
>
> Can you comment on the place of thumbs in Plexus technique? Are there
> any possible alternate mappings that would allow more thumb use? As a
> pianist, it seems unthinkable to go back 500 years and generally avoid
> using the most powerful aid to keyboard technique that was ever
> dreamed up. Of course, one video might not be the whole story...but,
> just glancing at the default mapping, it looks like thumbs might help
> with flats, double flats and triple flats, and might even be necessary
> in those scenarios, but be somewhat awkward on naturals, and damn near
> torturous on sharps. It really would kind of change the way keyboard
> music would be conceived, and obviously, there would be an awful lot
> of typical traditional keyboard textures or pieces that would be
> mighty awkward on the Plexus.
>
> It also looks like stretches and typical chord layouts being
> translated to the plexus would introduce some serious issues at some
> point.
>
> The other question would be---if one chooses a remap, and not to use
> 205-edo, can the color scheme on the front be changed for visual aid
> purposes, or IOW, what can be done to aid the obvious process of
> having to relearn the pitch space in those cases?
>
> best,
> AKJ
>

At 10:51 AM 1/20/2008, Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>>
>> >This belongs on the H-Pi forum. This is the last time I'm
>> >answering you here.
>>
>> I consider it rude for one person in a conversation to make
>> dictates like this.
>
>I consider it rude for you to ignore repeated requests that the
>conversation be taken where it belongs.

It must be nice to feel you unilaterally know where conversations
"belong". -Carl

Hi AAH,

Hey I wasn't trying to offend by saying '500 years'--just pointing out
roughly how long the thumb has been involved in keboard technique,
give or take 100 years, who can say for sure.

As for the forum, sorry it has gone on long here, but I must say,
since you brought it up, the thread started here, and it seems like a
logical enough place for it here, otherwise, people have the added
inconvenience of signing up for you sites discussion, and then people
here who didn't want to sign up don't see the discussion over there,
while it remains relevant here.

But, I guess it matter little to me...if I have more H-Pi questions,
I'll bring them there, as you wish.

-AKJ.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt"
<aaronhunt@...> wrote:
>
> AKJ,
>
> I would really prefer this take place on
> the H-Pi forum, as I have asked many times,
> <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
> as that is the designated place to discuss the
> Tonal Plexus on the internet where my
> involvement is clearly defined, but I will
> answer your questions here.
>
> Almost all of the other videos clearly show
> use of the thumb, for example:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/video/mmscales.mov>
> <http://www.h-pi.com/video/41commas.mov>
>
> There is certainly a need for more videos showing
> Tonal Plexus playing technique, how the different
> key elevations are used in playing and how the
> master tuning works. A short set of short videos
> was made for this but the quality was bad. The plan
> is for a whole set of tutorial videos.
>
> I comment on Plexus action here:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28faq.html>
>
> Plexus technique is different from a piano,
> for sure, which is to be expected since an
> array of buttons is not a lever action
> Halberstadt. Let's please refrain from making
> statements such as "going back 500 years".
>
> As for playing chords, of course you can still
> play chords, but they do not feel the same as
> chords on a piano, because a Plexus is not a
> piano. On a piano there are certain chord
> voicings which are more comfortable to play
> than others. Same for a Plexus, but the voicings
> which may be comfortable are not necessarily
> the same as the voicings which are comfortable
> on a piano. What's nice of course is that you
> can play chords that _aren't_on_ a piano:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/video/13thchords.mov>
>
> I don't anticipate rewriting of piano pieces for
> the Plexus. It is a new instrument which will
> engender new music. The videos showing Bach
> and Pachabel may be a bit misleading; they are
> up there because they are things people know
> which I had practiced a little and could play at
> the time while the camera was rolling. Again,
> a lot more new and better videos need to be
> made. There is only so much time in a day, but
> I will try to get some new things up.
>
> To answer your last remark about remapping and
> changing the graphics of the key layout, the
> idea is that the layout doesn't need to change
> and shouldn't change. It is actually an adaptive
> tuning layout, meaning that if you select 205ET
> or 19ET or 17ET or 72ET and play the same
> pattern on the keyboard, you play the same
> melodic contour with the pitches taken from
> the tuning in question. To get a better sense of
> that, you can download TPXE and take a look at
> what are called "region maps".
> <http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html>
> The region map list is the box in the upper
> right corner of the screen, as shown here:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28software.html>
> If you check the boxes and click the arrows
> you will see the region maps change.
> Moreover, the structure of the keyboard is
> theoretically unified with a systematic
> taxonomy for all pitches and intervals and
> has a 1 to 1 key correspondence with
> MegaScore, so if you write in MegaScore
> for a tuning map other than 205ET or a
> variant thereof, it is true scordatura.
>
> As for the idea of overlaying some other graphics
> over the keys, this could be done if you had a
> template, but the colors of the keys would remain
> the same. Moreover, it would be a lot of work,
> require that you send us files, cost money,
> and probably not look very good. But yes it could
> be done.
>
> Once again, please join the forum:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
>
> Sincerely,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> "Aaron Krister Johnson" wrote:
> > Aaron Andrew-
> >
> > I noticed in the video from your H-Pi site the lack of use of the
> > thumb in the 'Goldberg Variations' theme. It does seem that a flat
> > surface with round buttons might make this problematic, the only
> > reason it isn't a problem on a standard Halberstadt keyboard being the
> > sufficient latitude of thumb and finger placement due to front to back
> > key length.
> >
> > Can you comment on the place of thumbs in Plexus technique? Are there
> > any possible alternate mappings that would allow more thumb use? As a
> > pianist, it seems unthinkable to go back 500 years and generally avoid
> > using the most powerful aid to keyboard technique that was ever
> > dreamed up. Of course, one video might not be the whole story...but,
> > just glancing at the default mapping, it looks like thumbs might help
> > with flats, double flats and triple flats, and might even be necessary
> > in those scenarios, but be somewhat awkward on naturals, and damn near
> > torturous on sharps. It really would kind of change the way keyboard
> > music would be conceived, and obviously, there would be an awful lot
> > of typical traditional keyboard textures or pieces that would be
> > mighty awkward on the Plexus.
> >
> > It also looks like stretches and typical chord layouts being
> > translated to the plexus would introduce some serious issues at some
> > point.
> >
> > The other question would be---if one chooses a remap, and not to use
> > 205-edo, can the color scheme on the front be changed for visual aid
> > purposes, or IOW, what can be done to aid the obvious process of
> > having to relearn the pitch space in those cases?
> >
> > best,
> > AKJ
> >
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
> by saying '500 years'--just pointing out
> roughly how long the thumb has been involved in keboard technique,
> give or take 100 years, who can say for sure.

No offense taken; the remark just came across as a bit overstated.

>
> As for the forum, sorry it has gone on long here, but I must say,
> since you brought it up, the thread started here, and it seems like a
> logical enough place for it here, otherwise, people have the added
> inconvenience of signing up for you sites discussion, and then people
> here who didn't want to sign up don't see the discussion over there,
> while it remains relevant here.
>

Sure, that's a problem... cross-pollination is fine. I tried to
address the hassles in my response to your previous post:
</makemicromusic/topicId_18367.html#18371>

> But, I guess it matter little to me...if I have more H-Pi questions,
> I'll bring them there, as you wish.

Thanks. I'm trying to make things more manageable
because I do just about everything in my business, and
it is helpful for my role in discussions to be well defined
and for the dialogue to occur in a space directly linked
to the business.

Thanks,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

> -AKJ.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt"
> <aaronhunt@> wrote:
> >
> > AKJ,
> >
> > I would really prefer this take place on
> > the H-Pi forum, as I have asked many times,
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
> > as that is the designated place to discuss the
> > Tonal Plexus on the internet where my
> > involvement is clearly defined, but I will
> > answer your questions here.
> >
> > Almost all of the other videos clearly show
> > use of the thumb, for example:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/video/mmscales.mov>
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/video/41commas.mov>
> >
> > There is certainly a need for more videos showing
> > Tonal Plexus playing technique, how the different
> > key elevations are used in playing and how the
> > master tuning works. A short set of short videos
> > was made for this but the quality was bad. The plan
> > is for a whole set of tutorial videos.
> >
> > I comment on Plexus action here:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28faq.html>
> >
> > Plexus technique is different from a piano,
> > for sure, which is to be expected since an
> > array of buttons is not a lever action
> > Halberstadt. Let's please refrain from making
> > statements such as "going back 500 years".
> >
> > As for playing chords, of course you can still
> > play chords, but they do not feel the same as
> > chords on a piano, because a Plexus is not a
> > piano. On a piano there are certain chord
> > voicings which are more comfortable to play
> > than others. Same for a Plexus, but the voicings
> > which may be comfortable are not necessarily
> > the same as the voicings which are comfortable
> > on a piano. What's nice of course is that you
> > can play chords that _aren't_on_ a piano:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/video/13thchords.mov>
> >
> > I don't anticipate rewriting of piano pieces for
> > the Plexus. It is a new instrument which will
> > engender new music. The videos showing Bach
> > and Pachabel may be a bit misleading; they are
> > up there because they are things people know
> > which I had practiced a little and could play at
> > the time while the camera was rolling. Again,
> > a lot more new and better videos need to be
> > made. There is only so much time in a day, but
> > I will try to get some new things up.
> >
> > To answer your last remark about remapping and
> > changing the graphics of the key layout, the
> > idea is that the layout doesn't need to change
> > and shouldn't change. It is actually an adaptive
> > tuning layout, meaning that if you select 205ET
> > or 19ET or 17ET or 72ET and play the same
> > pattern on the keyboard, you play the same
> > melodic contour with the pitches taken from
> > the tuning in question. To get a better sense of
> > that, you can download TPXE and take a look at
> > what are called "region maps".
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html>
> > The region map list is the box in the upper
> > right corner of the screen, as shown here:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28software.html>
> > If you check the boxes and click the arrows
> > you will see the region maps change.
> > Moreover, the structure of the keyboard is
> > theoretically unified with a systematic
> > taxonomy for all pitches and intervals and
> > has a 1 to 1 key correspondence with
> > MegaScore, so if you write in MegaScore
> > for a tuning map other than 205ET or a
> > variant thereof, it is true scordatura.
> >
> > As for the idea of overlaying some other graphics
> > over the keys, this could be done if you had a
> > template, but the colors of the keys would remain
> > the same. Moreover, it would be a lot of work,
> > require that you send us files, cost money,
> > and probably not look very good. But yes it could
> > be done.
> >
> > Once again, please join the forum:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Aaron Hunt
> > H-Pi Instruments
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> > "Aaron Krister Johnson" wrote:
> > > Aaron Andrew-
> > >
> > > I noticed in the video from your H-Pi site the lack of use of the
> > > thumb in the 'Goldberg Variations' theme. It does seem that a flat
> > > surface with round buttons might make this problematic, the only
> > > reason it isn't a problem on a standard Halberstadt keyboard being the
> > > sufficient latitude of thumb and finger placement due to front to back
> > > key length.
> > >
> > > Can you comment on the place of thumbs in Plexus technique? Are there
> > > any possible alternate mappings that would allow more thumb use? As a
> > > pianist, it seems unthinkable to go back 500 years and generally avoid
> > > using the most powerful aid to keyboard technique that was ever
> > > dreamed up. Of course, one video might not be the whole story...but,
> > > just glancing at the default mapping, it looks like thumbs might help
> > > with flats, double flats and triple flats, and might even be necessary
> > > in those scenarios, but be somewhat awkward on naturals, and damn near
> > > torturous on sharps. It really would kind of change the way keyboard
> > > music would be conceived, and obviously, there would be an awful lot
> > > of typical traditional keyboard textures or pieces that would be
> > > mighty awkward on the Plexus.
> > >
> > > It also looks like stretches and typical chord layouts being
> > > translated to the plexus would introduce some serious issues at some
> > > point.
> > >
> > > The other question would be---if one chooses a remap, and not to use
> > > 205-edo, can the color scheme on the front be changed for visual aid
> > > purposes, or IOW, what can be done to aid the obvious process of
> > > having to relearn the pitch space in those cases?
> > >
> > > best,
> > > AKJ
> > >
> >
>