Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Newbie Here

Both of these sites have info & sell books:

http://justintonation.net
http://microtones.com

Some info:
http://kylegann.com/tuning.html

These soft synths are microtonal:
http://wusik.com (sample based)
http://www.camelaudio.com/cameleon5000.php (additive synth)
http://www.rgcaudio.com/z3ta+.htm (subtractive synth)
http://bigtick.pastnotecut.org/rhino.html (fm synth)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "klergstudios"
<klergstudios@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I am still a beginner with this type of music. Where are
> tutorials, guides, etc. on how to create this kind of music with a
PC?
> Is it best to first buy hardware (i.e. a MIDI keyboard) that can
play
> more than 12 notes in an octave? Which MIDI keyboard has this
> facility, anyways? Microtonal-synthesis.com list mostly keyboard-
LESS
> synthesizers with this ability. I have Scala, but it won't let me
> create music with the scales i make.
>
> My sequencer, Digital Orchestrator, and notation app, Noteworthy
> Composer remain locked in 12-tone equal temperament. How can i
tune
> the 12(or hopefully more)pitches of an equal-tempered scale in
cents
> so my sequencer or notation app will recognise the new tones? Does
the
> hardware/software need to support MIDI Tuning Standard (MTS),or
will
> pitch bend messages do this?
>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

klergstudios wrote:
> Hello. I am still a beginner with this type of music. Where are > tutorials, guides, etc. on how to create this kind of music with a PC? > Is it best to first buy hardware (i.e. a MIDI keyboard) that can play > more than 12 notes in an octave? Which MIDI keyboard has this > facility, anyways? Microtonal-synthesis.com list mostly keyboard-LESS > synthesizers with this ability. I have Scala, but it won't let me > create music with the scales i make. You've been getting a lot of links so I'll try and answer the simple questions.

- Buying a MIDI keyboard is a good idea, but it doesn't have to be retunable, or even have any sound production. You can do all that with soft synths and at least get some experience so you make a more informed choice for the next step. You'll neeed a way of plugging it into the PC as well. USB boxes are good.

- There might be fully retunable keyboards out there but it doesn't greatly matter. If you choose a keyboard solely on it's tuning ability you're unlikely to get the keyboard and sounds you originally wanted. Hence you usually end up with a different keyboard and synthesizer, which was originally the whole point of MIDI anyway.

> My sequencer, Digital Orchestrator, and notation app, Noteworthy > Composer remain locked in 12-tone equal temperament. How can i tune > the 12(or hopefully more)pitches of an equal-tempered scale in cents > so my sequencer or notation app will recognise the new tones? Does the > hardware/software need to support MIDI Tuning Standard (MTS),or will > pitch bend messages do this? You remap the keyboard so that you still have one note per key, but the octave's a different size. You can get used to that with the piano roll view of a sequencer. You'll probably do notation differently, basing it on a 12 note octave but using additional accidentals. Some folks in these parts do use Noteworthy Composer like this.

The MTS is only one way of transmitting tuning data. It's often supported by software synths, but there are different hardware protocols, and you can see that Scala supports most of them. The only problem is that you can't play the same MIDI file on different synthesizers. Because every synth has a different sound that's not likely to work properly anyway. If the synth doesn't support tuning tables then you can use pitch bends. They can work but it's a pain if you move notes around in the sequencer and generally you're better off finding something with tuning tables.

Graham

🔗klergstudios <klergstudios@...>

>Hudson Lacerda wrote:
>I suppose there are several answers for your questions, starting
>with
>what you mean with ``create [microtonal] music with a PC''... For
>instance, you can try with scales by using any MIDI keyboard
>connected
>to a computer with the synthesizer software ZynAddSubFX, you can re-
>tune
>(or create) MIDI files with Scala, write microtonal staff notation
>with
>abcm2ps, do real time sound synthesis/processing with PureData or
>csound...
<
I hope these links can help:

>Microtonalism:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal_music
>http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/
>http://tonalsoft.com/enc/encyclopedia.aspx
>http://paginas.tol.itesm.mx/campus/L00280370/julian.html
>http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/ttss.html
>http://members.aol.com/bpsite/
>http://members.tripod.com/~tuning_archive/on_site_tree/margoschulter
>/what_is_microtonality.html
<http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/

>Software for sound synthesis:
>csound http://www.csounds.com/
>pd http://puredata.info/
>https://www.puredata.info/Members/badmuthahubbard/JI%
20Sequencer/view
>zynaddsubfx http://zynaddsubfx.sourceforge.net/
>supercollider http://www.audiosynth.com/
>RTcmix http://music.columbia.edu/cmix/

>Music notation/MIDI:
>lilypond http://lilypond.org/web/
>abcm2ps, tclabc http://moinejf.free.fr/
>microabc http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html
>abcMIDI http://ifdo.pugmarks.com/%7Eseymour/runabc/top.html

>Math software:
>scala http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/
>octave http://www.octave.org/

Whoa...that is quite a lot of links to wade through. I've only
glanced at them all. Most of them are next to useless for me,
because they are programming languages (not my area of expertise,
ever). "What is microtonality" is interesting. Zynaddsubfx looks
neat. I was particularly letdown by the notation programs (All seem
to be language-based)

I forgot to mention that i regularly use soundfonts. How can i
create microtonal music with soundfonts via a sequencer? Is Vsampler
good? I hear v3.5 accepts scala scales. Can i make music with > 12
notes per octave with it?

Graham Breed wrote:
> Buying a MIDI keyboard is a good idea, but it doesn't have to be
>retunable, or even have any sound production. You can do all that
>with
>soft synths and at least get some experience so you make a more
>informed
>choice for the next step.

But don't soft synths drain your CPU? I still have a PIII-600 here.
What do you mean 'next step'?

>Hence you usually end up with a different keyboard and synthesizer,
>which was originally the whole point of MIDI anyway.

I don't understand what you mean

>You remap the keyboard so that you still have one note per key, but
>the
>octave's a different size. You can get used to that with the piano
>roll
>view of a sequencer. You'll probably do notation differently,
>basing it
>on a 12 note octave but using additional accidentals. Some folks in
>these parts do use Noteworthy Composer like this.

How do i 'remap' the keyboard? Is this done in the sequencer? I
rarely, if ever, use the piano roll in my sequencer Voyetra Digital
Orchestrator.

>The MTS is only one way of transmitting tuning data. It's often
>supported by software synths, but there are different hardware
>protocols, and you can see that Scala supports most of them. The
only
>problem is that you can't play the same MIDI file on different
>synthesizers. Because every synth has a different sound that's not
>likely to work properly anyway. If the synth doesn't support tuning
>tables then you can use pitch bends. They can work but it's a pain
if
>you move notes around in the sequencer and generally you're better
>off finding something with tuning tables.

Do you mean MTS is not universally understood by synths/keyboards,
then? So, basically, my next keyboard should have (in addition to 88-
keys, velocity-sensitive, aftertouch, pitch & mod wheels) a tuning
table but, yet, not be retunable? Is there such a keyboard?

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

klergstudios escreveu:

> Whoa...that is quite a lot of links to wade through. I've only > glanced at them all. Most of them are next to useless for me, > because they are programming languages (not my area of expertise, > ever). "What is microtonality" is interesting. Zynaddsubfx looks > neat. I was particularly letdown by the notation programs (All seem > to be language-based)
> > I forgot to mention that i regularly use soundfonts. How can i > create microtonal music with soundfonts via a sequencer?

I missed an important software: timidity++; it is a MIDI player (synthesiser) which supports soundfonts and can generate soundfiles in formats like .wav and .ogg (Vorbis/FLAC). It supports SMT and is able to load a frequency table to set all 128 MIDI pitches; it also does some adaptative pure intonation, and can run as a sound device (so that you can send the output of a sequencer to timidity virtual MIDI input).

http://timidity.sourceforge.net/
http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html

I would stress that ZynAddSubFX is really very good to play arbitrary scales. You need try it! :-)

Concerning to MIDI sequencing, I suppose other people can help, as I do not do music that way. (I only use abc2midi to have some audible feedback). I guess most people do the sequencing in common (non-microtonal) sequencers and then re-tune the MIDI files with Scala (e.g. with the command ``example/midi'' -- check Scala documentation).

For staff notation, there is no a word of flowers... but LilyPond (command line music typesetter) can do quartertones, there is a quartertone extension for RoseGarden (sequencer with a graphical music notation editor)... I remember that Sibelius could do quartertones (and play, in a somewhat dirty way); other programs will allow special accidentals for printing only. Anyway, in most cases you need to a double job -- one for score and another for MIDI. (Fortunately you do not need special accidentals for some scales like 19-EDO, and with quartertones you can have 24-EDO, 31-EDO etc.)

With microabc I can obtain MIDI and score from a single source file, although I suspect the MIDI will not be too suitable for later improving, if you want a high-quality MIDI performance (MIDI as the final musical work). I sometimes use tkabc (tclabc, from http://moinejf.free.fr ; see also http://moinejf.free.fr/sample.gif) as graphical interface for ABC; however, as the programs is young, it has still several limitations and knowledge of ABC is required -- tkabc can notate quartertones.

Regards,
Hudson Lacerda

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🔗Joe <tamahome02000@...>

> Whoa...that is quite a lot of links to wade through. I've only
> glanced at them all. Most of them are next to useless for me,
> because they are programming languages (not my area of expertise,
> ever). "What is microtonality" is interesting. Zynaddsubfx looks
> neat. I was particularly letdown by the notation programs (All
seem
> to be language-based)
>
> I forgot to mention that i regularly use soundfonts. How can i
> create microtonal music with soundfonts via a sequencer? Is
Vsampler
> good? I hear v3.5 accepts scala scales. Can i make music with > 12
> notes per octave with it?

Vsampler should work fine. I have to warn you that Zynaddsubfx was
made for linux. There's a windows version, but I could only get the
standalone version to work, not the plugin. There's also a free
Oblivion soundfont player:
http://www.oblivionom.com/oblivionfree.html

> But don't soft synths drain your CPU? I still have a PIII-600
here.

Give the demos a shot. Sampler players should take less cpu than
soft synths that generate sounds from scratch.

> How do i 'remap' the keyboard? Is this done in the sequencer? I
> rarely, if ever, use the piano roll in my sequencer Voyetra
Digital
> Orchestrator.

In soft synths people usually load scales and mappings from
scala .tun
or .scl files. You can actually play midi in scala as well.

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Joe escreveu:

> Vsampler should work fine. I have to warn you that Zynaddsubfx was
> made for linux. There's a windows version, but I could only get the
> standalone version to work, not the plugin.

What is the thing you are calling ``plugin''? Are they the parameter files (banks)? If so, I guess (though I am not sure) you need declare the path for the banks in the menu File|Settings. (After find the directory.) If not, I am curious to know what are such ``plugins''.

Cheers,
Hudson

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🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Hudson,

{you wrote...}
>What is the thing you are calling ``plugin''?

This is de facto standard these days: Steinberg came up with a format called VST (Virtual Studio Technology). When you build either a musical instrument (synth, sampler, etc) or an effect (delay, reverb, etc) it can be packaged as a VST instrument/effect. One then uses a host program (either a host that can simply load all these VSTs and play them) or a sequencer-type program to utilize them. The purpose is to not have a bunch of stand-alone programs that don't have any way of talking to each other, but an endless (well, *virtually* endless) array of instruments at your disposal right in your sequencing/compositional setup.

Probably the forum that gets the most amount of traffic is at KVR:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/

I'm a little surprised you aren't even aware of these instruments, as a lot of people here on MMM have been using this method to make microtonal music. Search back through the archives for VST and you'll see a lot of discussion. I'm just back from an extended break, so at some point I'm going to post to Newbie about some of the basics involved - I happen to think that a simple VST/host setup is one of the very best ways to become involved in microtonalism through electronics.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Jon Szanto escreveu:
> Hudson,
> > {you wrote...}
> >> What is the thing you are calling ``plugin''?

I mean: plugin for *ZynAddSubFX*, as you wrote before:

<<<
I have to warn you that Zynaddsubfx was
made for linux. There's a windows version, but I could only get the
standalone version to work, not the plugin.
>>>

> > > This is de facto standard these days: Steinberg came up with a format
> called VST (Virtual Studio Technology). When you build either a
> musical instrument (synth, sampler, etc) or an effect (delay, reverb,
> etc) it can be packaged as a VST instrument/effect. One then uses a
> host program (either a host that can simply load all these VSTs and
> play them) or a sequencer-type program to utilize them. The purpose
> is to not have a bunch of stand-alone programs that don't have any
> way of talking to each other, but an endless (well, *virtually*
> endless) array of instruments at your disposal right in your
> sequencing/compositional setup.

I only have read this abbreviation -- VST -- in the csound manual, but it seems that it refers to an specific csound version.

> > Probably the forum that gets the most amount of traffic is at KVR:
> > http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/
> > I'm a little surprised you aren't even aware of these instruments, as
> a lot of people here on MMM have been using this method to make
> microtonal music. Search back through the archives for VST and you'll
> see a lot of discussion. I'm just back from an extended break, so at
> some point I'm going to post to Newbie about some of the basics
> involved - I happen to think that a simple VST/host setup is one of
> the very best ways to become involved in microtonalism through
> electronics.
> > Cheers, Jon

What are the free software able to deal with VST?

Thanks,
Hudson

> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > /makemicromusic/join (Yahoo! ID
> required)
> > > > > > > -- '-------------------------------------------------------------------.
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🔗Joe <tamahome02000@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Hi Hudson,

{you wrote...}
>I mean: plugin for *ZynAddSubFX*, as you wrote before:

Aha - well, if I understand correctly, Zyn is available the way many of the software instruments are today, both as a stand-alone synth, and also as a plugin that can appear _within_ an audio host. The host could be either for playback of multiple instruments, or it could be a full sequencing/audio workstation.

>I only have read this abbreviation -- VST -- in the csound manual, but it seems that it refers to an specific csound version.

That, I would imagine, would be its only relevant mention from within Csound, as they have somewhat recently developed the Csound engine to operate as a VST plugin. I haven't tried it myself.

>What are the free software able to deal with VST?

You would need to do a search. More importantly, you would need to be a little more specific, esp. as to platform. If it is for Linux based systems, the options are more limited, but Aaron Johnson has been using some of these I believe. I'm pretty sure Rosegarden is involved, but the VST format is not native and requires a fair amount of mucking around. I have a few free apps that I use, but the heavy-lifting parts of my music system involve tools from small developers, including shareware, up to full commercial products.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗kevin ryan <bentivi_cdo@...>

The zynaddsubfx web page says there's a mac osx
version (thanks to Ben Powers), but when I clicked the
link, I came to an error page not found page... I
googled to see if it was hosted somewhere else, but
even wikipedia's link is dead.
I really want to try this out and using virtual PC
will probably be really slow. Can anyone help me?
thanks!
Kevin

--- Joe <tamahome02000@...> wrote:

> > Whoa...that is quite a lot of links to wade
> through. I've only
> > glanced at them all. Most of them are next to
> useless for me,
> > because they are programming languages (not my
> area of expertise,
> > ever). "What is microtonality" is interesting.
> Zynaddsubfx looks
> > neat. I was particularly letdown by the notation
> programs (All
> seem
> > to be language-based)
> >
> > I forgot to mention that i regularly use
> soundfonts. How can i
> > create microtonal music with soundfonts via a
> sequencer? Is
> Vsampler
> > good? I hear v3.5 accepts scala scales. Can i make
> music with > 12
> > notes per octave with it?
>
> Vsampler should work fine. I have to warn you that
> Zynaddsubfx was
> made for linux. There's a windows version, but I
> could only get the
> standalone version to work, not the plugin. There's
> also a free
> Oblivion soundfont player:
> http://www.oblivionom.com/oblivionfree.html
>
> > But don't soft synths drain your CPU? I still have
> a PIII-600
> here.
>
> Give the demos a shot. Sampler players should take
> less cpu than
> soft synths that generate sounds from scratch.
>
> > How do i 'remap' the keyboard? Is this done in the
> sequencer? I
> > rarely, if ever, use the piano roll in my
> sequencer Voyetra
> Digital
> > Orchestrator.
>
> In soft synths people usually load scales and
> mappings from
> scala .tun
> or .scl files. You can actually play midi in scala
> as well.
>
>
>
>
>
>

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🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Jon Szanto escreveu:
> Hi Hudson,

Hi Jon,

(Sorry for confusing you with Joe -- it seems that I only read the names til the second letter (Joe, Jon, John...) :-P Sorry :-)

> > {you wrote...}
> >> I mean: plugin for *ZynAddSubFX*, as you wrote before:
> > > Aha - well, if I understand correctly, Zyn is available the way many
> of the software instruments are today, both as a stand-alone synth,
> and also as a plugin that can appear _within_ an audio host. The host
> could be either for playback of multiple instruments, or it could be
> a full sequencing/audio workstation.

That is true; I can connect zynaddsubfx to other software with OSS, ALSA or JACK (on a GNU/Linux system).

But I have once tried the version for Windows on WINE; the installer did not set the path for instrument banks, thus my note on set them by hand. But it is possible that the installer does the correct job on a real Windows system.

> > >> I only have read this abbreviation -- VST -- in the csound manual,
>> but it seems that it refers to an specific csound version.
> > > That, I would imagine, would be its only relevant mention from within
> Csound, as they have somewhat recently developed the Csound engine to
> operate as a VST plugin. I haven't tried it myself.

BTW, csoundVST is not free software; I think it uses the csoundapi -- with is free under GNU LGPL -- linked to some non-free VST engine.

> > >> What are the free software able to deal with VST?
> > > You would need to do a search. More importantly, you would need to be
> a little more specific, esp. as to platform. If it is for Linux based
> systems, the options are more limited, but Aaron Johnson has been
> using some of these I believe. I'm pretty sure Rosegarden is
> involved, but the VST format is not native and requires a fair amount
> of mucking around. I have a few free apps that I use, but the
> heavy-lifting parts of my music system involve tools from small
> developers, including shareware, up to full commercial products.
> > Cheers, Jon

First I would need become interested in VST. (I cannot figure any way in that it could be useful for me.)

Cheers,
Hudson

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🔗Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

If your keyboard is hooked to your computer with MIDI, it doesn't
matter what tunings the keyboard supports.
I thought there was some way to send live MIDI output from Scala. If
so, you can play through it and record the MIDI data in a MIDI
sequencer. I know it's possible to play using a keyboard with Scala,
but I don't know whether it will save it or send it through MIDI.

I created a sequencer in Pure Data for sequencing just intonation
without using scales, but it doesn't support a keyboard. It's
rickety, but easy to use, and it works. It's graphic, not text-based
like Scala's and Csound's scores.
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/program.html

If you have some time to learn, I'd suggest looking into either Csound
or (easier) Pure Data. With these you have complete control of how
your computer responds to your input. I once created a synth that
could be set to 12, 19, or 31 EDO; though it can be customized for any
tuning. Csound also actually has codes for reading Scala tuning
files, as well as Scala .seq files.

-Chuckk

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "klergstudios"
<klergstudios@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I am still a beginner with this type of music. Where are
> tutorials, guides, etc. on how to create this kind of music with a PC?
> Is it best to first buy hardware (i.e. a MIDI keyboard) that can play
> more than 12 notes in an octave? Which MIDI keyboard has this
> facility, anyways? Microtonal-synthesis.com list mostly keyboard-LESS
> synthesizers with this ability. I have Scala, but it won't let me
> create music with the scales i make.
>
> My sequencer, Digital Orchestrator, and notation app, Noteworthy
> Composer remain locked in 12-tone equal temperament. How can i tune
> the 12(or hopefully more)pitches of an equal-tempered scale in cents
> so my sequencer or notation app will recognise the new tones? Does the
> hardware/software need to support MIDI Tuning Standard (MTS),or will
> pitch bend messages do this?
>

🔗klergstudios <klergstudios@...>

Hudson lacerda wrote:
>I missed an important software: timidity++; it is a MIDI player
>(synthesiser) which supports soundfonts and can generate soundfiles
in
>formats like .wav and .ogg (Vorbis/FLAC). It supports SMT and is
able to
>load a frequency table to set all 128 MIDI pitches; it also does
some
>adaptative pure intonation, and can run as a sound device (so that
you
>can send the output of a sequencer to timidity virtual MIDI input).

>http://timidity.sourceforge.net/
>http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html

I just downloaded a version of Timidity from midi-contest.com. After
i set it up to output through Cakewalk Sonar 2 XL, it was extremely
choppy, sluggish, and just plain unusable. Strangely, Cakewalk
shows 'CPU:00%'If it's not using the CPU, why is the sound so
garbled?

>Concerning to MIDI sequencing, I suppose other people can help, as
I do
>not do music that way. (I only use abc2midi to have some audible
>feedback). I guess most people do the sequencing in common
>(non-microtonal) sequencers and then re-tune the MIDI files with
Scala
>(e.g. with the command ``example/midi'' -- check Scala
documentation).

Why would anyone sequence music in 12-tet, and then retune in
another tuning? I mean, it's wasting time, and it seems weird to me,
because the music couldn't possbily come out as you originally
intended. In short, its more akin to 'changing/altering' something
rather than 'composing' anything. I really would like to know if the
Piano Roll can accept/understand > 12 notes per octave, and how to
make it to do so.

Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
>I thought there was some way to send live MIDI output from Scala. If
>so, you can play through it and record the MIDI data in a MIDI
>sequencer. I know it's possible to play using a keyboard with Scala,
>but I don't know whether it will save it or send it through MIDI.

I'm not sure if Scala can send it's MIDI output..hmmm...although i
think you could capture the MIDI output from Scala's Microtonal
keyboard by a virtual MIDI cable, like MIDI Yoke, into a sequencer,
but you would, at the very least, have the problem of having what
you played being notated legibly. You could also have the problem of
not correctly hearing what you play from Scala's Microtonal keyboard
in the sequencer (not exactly sure why, though...) I believe i need
to try this first.

>I created a sequencer in Pure Data for sequencing just intonation
>without using scales, but it doesn't support a keyboard. It's
>rickety, but easy to use, and it works. It's graphic, not text-based
>like Scala's and Csound's scores.
>http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/program.html

This link is dead.

>If you have some time to learn, I'd suggest looking into either
Csound
>or (easier) Pure Data. With these you have complete control of how
>your computer responds to your input. I once created a synth that
>could be set to 12, 19, or 31 EDO; though it can be customized for
any
>tuning. Csound also actually has codes for reading Scala tuning
>files, as well as Scala .seq files.

I guess since Pure Data is graphical it could be easier, but it's
still a programming environment, nonetheless. What is EDO?

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

klergstudios escreveu:

>>http://timidity.sourceforge.net/
>>http://timidity.s11.xrea.com/index.en.html
> > > I just downloaded a version of Timidity from midi-contest.com. After > i set it up to output through Cakewalk Sonar 2 XL, it was extremely > choppy, sluggish, and just plain unusable. Strangely, Cakewalk > shows 'CPU:00%'If it's not using the CPU, why is the sound so > garbled?

Hi,

You can try increase the priority level of timidity.

I don't know about other systems, but here, on a GNU/Linux system, I can simply connect timidity to JACK, to get real-time priority.

>>(e.g. with the command ``example/midi'' -- check Scala > > documentation).
> > Why would anyone sequence music in 12-tet, and then retune in > another tuning? I mean, it's wasting time, and it seems weird to me, > because the music couldn't possbily come out as you originally > intended.

No, that is not what I mean. Forget 12-tet. You make the music in whatever scale you want, mapping the 128 MIDI pitch numbers to whatever frequencies you wish. Obviously, with such approach, you will heard the music only after processing the MIDI file through Scala, but not in the sequencer -- except if you use a MIDI device which supports SMT, or a synthesiser software as MIDI output.

> Chuckk Hubbard wrote:

>>I created a sequencer in Pure Data for sequencing just intonation
>>without using scales, but it doesn't support a keyboard. It's
>>rickety, but easy to use, and it works. It's graphic, not text-based
>>like Scala's and Csound's scores.
>>http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/program.html
> > > This link is dead. Here:
http://puredata.info/Members/badmuthahubbard/JI%20Sequencer/view?searchterm=JI
(I guess it is for the *extended* version of pd.)

> I guess since Pure Data is graphical it could be easier, but it's > still a programming environment, nonetheless.

Microtonal music is non-standard. One have to be willing to learn (or invent) how to make it -- this include a bit of effort in programming, specially because most software will not support non-standard scales.

Text-based notations are helpful. Scala has a sequence format:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/seq_format.html
(it is not too suitable for manual input, though -- like csound scores).

ABC notation is handy enough for me. (After some effort writting microabc.)

For pd, have a look in this book, which works fine as a manual:
http://www-crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/techniques.htm

Cheers,
Hudson

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🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Hudson,

{you wrote...}
>Microtonal music is non-standard. One have to be willing to learn (or invent) how to make it -- this include a bit of effort in programming, specially because most software will not support non-standard scales.

I'm sorry, but it is time for this software myth to die. Even as near as 3 or 4 years ago, there was a bit of validity to that. But I can think of at least a dozen software musical instruments that support microtonality, many of them with direct .scl or .tun format importing, and it just isn't the case that one has to always "roll their own".

I fought long and hard to see some of these things come to light, and we are in a very fortunate situation compared to past hardware and software scenarios. While there is always a great deal one can do with programming their own environments, for someone who is new to this it can be very discouraging. If one wants to make microtonal music right now, they can do it, and the tools are right in front of us.

I know we all have different ways of working, but let us not be discouraging when it isn't necessary.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗klergstudios <klergstudios@...>

Hudson Lacerda wrote:
>You can try increase the priority level of timidity.

>I don't know about other systems, but here, on a GNU/Linux system,
I can
>simply connect timidity to JACK, to get real-time priority.

Uh...i am running timidity on a PC with Windows.

>No, that is not what I mean. Forget 12-tet. You make the music in
>whatever scale you want, mapping the 128 MIDI pitch numbers to
whatever
>frequencies you wish. Obviously, with such approach, you will heard
the
>music only after processing the MIDI file through Scala, but not in
the
>sequencer -- except if you use a MIDI device which supports SMT, or
a
>synthesiser software as MIDI output.

What did you mean? It seems like what your saying now is that it
isn't possible to realize microtonal music with a sequencer? If so,
that is not right. If anything, it may not be possible to realize
microtonal music that uses > 12 notes per octave in a sequencer, or
at least in Cakewalk. What is SMT? Do you mean MTS? What
keyboards/synths support MTS, by the way?

As for the Piano Roll, i've been searching this message board and it
seems, fairly recently, someone has already asked my question. Here
is the page
/makemicromusic/topicId_14665.html#14705 as
of that post, his question remains unanswered. I haven't had time to
read the whole thing, but it looks like Cakewalk's Piano roll can't
recognize > 12 notes per octave. I've gotten rid of the Keyboard in
Piano roll, like the message says, but it still shows 12 pitches in
the octave.

Joe Szanto wrote:
>I can think of at least a dozen software musical instruments that
>support microtonality, >many of them with direct .scl or .tun
>format importing, and it just isn't the case that one has to
>always "roll their own".

Yes. With newer soft synths i can hear microtonal music, but do they
let you create it? Specifically, which ones allow you to make
microtonal music with more than 12 notes per octave?

>If one wants to make microtonal music right now, they can do it,
and the tools are
>right in front of us.

Well, the tools are certainly not in front of me. Could you shed
some light for me?

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

klergstudios escreveu:
> Hudson Lacerda wrote:
> >>You can try increase the priority level of timidity.
> > >>I don't know about other systems, but here, on a GNU/Linux system, > > I can
> >>simply connect timidity to JACK, to get real-time priority.
> > > Uh...i am running timidity on a PC with Windows.

mmm... I would suppose that Windows let you change the priority of execution of processes. Is that not true?

> What did you mean? It seems like what your saying now is that it > isn't possible to realize microtonal music with a sequencer? If so, > that is not right.

If your sequencer cannot play microtonal pitches, it is that. In such case, you need send the MIDI output to a device/software which supports tuning.

As Jon Szanto has told in a recent post, there are programs which support tuning, although I do not know a single sequencer in such set. I should remark that I do not do music with MIDI, and I do not know the first thing about sequencers.

> If anything, it may not be possible to realize > microtonal music that uses > 12 notes per octave in a sequencer, or > at least in Cakewalk.

Again: forget the number 12. It is not attached to the octave. You have *128* MIDI pitches, you can set any frequencies to them.

> What is SMT? Do you mean MTS? What > keyboards/synths support MTS, by the way?
> > As for the Piano Roll, i've been searching this message board and it > seems, fairly recently, someone has already asked my question. Here > is the page > /makemicromusic/topicId_14665.html#14705 as > of that post, his question remains unanswered. I haven't had time to > read the whole thing, but it looks like Cakewalk's Piano roll can't > recognize > 12 notes per octave. I've gotten rid of the Keyboard in > Piano roll, like the message says, but it still shows 12 pitches in > the octave.

You should map your tuning to the set of 128 MIDI pitches. In a ``Piano Roll'' you should learn which key corresponds to each frequency.

Cheers,
Hudson Lacerda

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🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Jon Szanto escreveu:
> Hudson,
> > {you wrote...}
> >> Microtonal music is non-standard. One have to be willing to learn
>> (or invent) how to make it -- this include a bit of effort in
>> programming, specially because most software will not support
>> non-standard scales.
> > > I'm sorry, but it is time for this software myth to die. Even as near
> as 3 or 4 years ago, there was a bit of validity to that. But I can
> think of at least a dozen software musical instruments that support
> microtonality, many of them with direct .scl or .tun format
> importing, and it just isn't the case that one has to always "roll
> their own".

Maybe I have misunderstood klergstudios: my interpretation was that retuning a MIDI file with Scala or do a MIDI mapping (which I suppose to be the approach used in the programs you refers to) were taken as a *non-elegant* way to do microtonal music; then I told that some ``hacking'' is still necessary to do microtonal music with a computer. For instance, many staff notation programs are clearly too limited for microtonalism. I suppose many sequencers will not let you have a viewing-mode adapted to the tuning (for instance, highlighting the octaves in 22-tet -- that is, every 22 pitches).

> I fought long and hard to see some of these things come to light, and
> we are in a very fortunate situation compared to past hardware and
> software scenarios. While there is always a great deal one can do
> with programming their own environments, for someone who is new to
> this it can be very discouraging. If one wants to make microtonal
> music right now, they can do it, and the tools are right in front of
> us.

Indeed, for instance, by using timidity and zynaddsubfx, very easy-to-use tools which I recommended in *first place*, since my very first post in this thread.

I only _stressed_ the usefulness to learn a little ``programming'' *after* the deceptive feedback concerning to MIDI mapping and MIDI file re-tuning.

> > I know we all have different ways of working, but let us not be
> discouraging when it isn't necessary.

When I suggest someone to learn something which may be useful, I presume that is *encouragement*.

Best wishes.
Hudson

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