[MMM] FTS & Cakewalk

Seskandari2003 asked,

> once i choose a scale with more than 12 tones per octave ...

Basically, if you set FTS to use a 15-tet scale, and send it, for example,
15 different MIDI notes starting at note #60, you should hear 15 different
pitches. Are you using the FTS facilities for loading .tun files? Or
something else?

If you're working with FTS, you'll want to make sure you're using the
absolute latest version, like 3.0, which has good facilities for doing all
kinds of microtonal work. I'm not sure whether Robert has in fact released
it yet or not.

I have a page with some info on how to set up FTS, at least for working
with Finale and GPO, and using .tun files. Your mileage may vary.

http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/MicroOrchestra.html

Rick

seskandari2003 wrote:
> I've managed to relay the output of cakewalk pro audio 9 to the input > of fractal tune smithy via Midi Yoke (so i can actually > hear 'microtonal' music)I have one problem and a question. My problem > is that once i choose a scale with more than 12 tones per octave i'm > only able to hear 12 of them in the Staff view. For instance, i choose > 15-TET, set the meter to 5/4 in Staff view (so i can easily hear all > 15 pitches, i.e. I should now have five different tones in three > measures, right?)
> > I am able to hear 12 of the 15 tones per octave when i insert flat(b)
> and sharp(#)signs on a standard 12-TET scale (e.g. c-C, for instance.) > I don't know if Cakewalk's staff view recognises double flat, or > double sharp signs. Is there a workaround for this? My question is > whether FTS can output from multiple midi synths on different channels > at the same time? For example, can it output my soundcard's synth on > ch.1 and my hardware synth on ch.2, at the same time? I'm not familiar with that version of Cakewalk, but I suspect it doesn't really distinguish between sharps and flats: in MIDI, C# is the same note as Db. If you've got a notated octave C-c, it should sound like an approximate 7/4 (a 960-cent interval) if you're using a 15-note per octave tuning. If that's the case, you may be better off using the piano roll instead of the staff view. I used an ancient version of Cakewalk Home Studio to write "Mizarian Porcupine Overture" in 15-ET (back in 1999), all using the piano roll (I didn't even have a practical notation for 15-ET yet by then).

Rick McGowan wrote:

>Basically, if you set FTS to use a 15-tet scale, and send it, for
example,
15 different MIDI notes starting at note #60, you should hear 15
different
pitches. Are you using the FTS facilities for loading .tun files? Or
something else?

How do i hear all 15 pitches? As i said, i cannot hear them in the
staff view of Cakewalk. What are .tun files? I've loaded the default
15-tet that comes with FTS.

Thanks for the link, i'll read when i can, but not sure how much it
can help me.

Herman Hiller wrote:

>I'm not familiar with that version of Cakewalk, but I suspect it
doesn't
really distinguish between sharps and flats: in MIDI, C# is the same
note as Db...you may be better off using the piano
roll instead of the staff view.

So, is there anyway to hear all 15 pitches in the Staff View? I must
admit i rarely use the piano roll view, except to insert complex
rhythms, how can the piano roll view let me hear the 15 tones per
octave, let alone more than 15 pitches?

seskandari2003 wrote:

> So, is there anyway to hear all 15 pitches in the Staff View? I must > admit i rarely use the piano roll view, except to insert complex > rhythms, how can the piano roll view let me hear the 15 tones per > octave, let alone more than 15 pitches? I guess it might not be immediately obvious that an octave above Middle C in a 15-note scale will actually be notated as E flat (or D sharp) in the higher octave. The thing to keep in mind is that Cakewalk is a MIDI editor; it just sends MIDI notes to an output device (or FTS in this case), and doesn't know anything about which notes are mapped to which pitches. Since probably 99%+ of users don't change the tuning, it probably never occurred to anyone to allow users to customize the staff notation.

What the piano roll gives you is a label for each note. Typically these are set so that MIDI note 60 is labeled as "C4" and so on, but in some versions of Cakewalk you can edit the names of these notes. In the ancient version of Cakewalk Home Studio I used to use, the Settings / Instruments dialog box has a "Define Instruments" button which opens up a new dialog box, which in turn has a "Define Names" button that lets you define your own note names. All you have to do then is define a label for each of the 128 MIDI notes (or fewer if you don't need to use the entire MIDI range).

Herman Miller wrote:

>Cakewalk...doesn't know anything about which notes are mapped to
>which pitches.

So, am I supposed to know this? If yes, then how?

Herman Miller wrote:

>What the piano roll gives you is a label for each note. Typically
>these are set so that MIDI note 60 is labeled as "C4" and so on, but
>in some versions of Cakewalk you can edit the names of these notes.
>In the ancient version of Cakewalk Home Studio I used to use, the
>Settings / Instruments dialog box has a "Define Instruments" button
>which opens up a new dialog box, which in turn has a "Define Names"
>button that lets you define your own note names. All you have to do
>then is define a label for each of the 128 MIDI notes (or fewer if
>you don't need to use the entire MIDI range).

But, the piano roll view only has a 12-ET keyboard, so how can i hear
more than 12 notes per octave with it? I don't see how editing the
names of notes will help me (i.e. allow me to hear more than 12 notes
per octave), especially for the Staff view. Moreover, wouldn't i have
to make separate 'note name' presets for EVERY different tuning i want
to use? That is, once i make note name values for this 15-ET scale i'm
using, i'd have to make another one for 17-ET, 19-TET...etc, am i
right? If so, obviously this is very time-consuming. Do i need a
dedicated notation program, like Finale, to get it to work when i
"enter notes into the score...and hear the notes as i write them" just
like FTS's help file says i should?

seskandari2003 wrote:

> But, the piano roll view only has a 12-ET keyboard, so how can i > hear more than 12 notes per octave with it?

I believe the keyboard only shows up if you're using the standard note names. At any rate, it's just an added convenience; you don't need to look at the keys to use it.

> I don't see how editing
> the names of notes will help me (i.e. allow me to hear more than 12 > notes per octave), especially for the Staff view. Moreover, wouldn't > i have to make separate 'note name' presets for EVERY different > tuning i want to use?

Yes, it's a bit of an annoyance. If you don't want to bother, you could always write out a chart with the MIDI note numbers and use those directly (just ignore the note names). But it's certainly better than nothing. Once again, the number of notes you get per octave depends on the settings of your MIDI device, and not anything you can set from within Cakewalk. To sum up, if you leave MIDI note 60 tuned to Middle C, and you tune a 15 note per octave scale, an octave above Middle C is MIDI note 75 (60 + 15), and an octave below Middle C is 45 (60 - 15).

C .... 45 60 75 ....
....... 46 61 76 .... (80 cents above C)
(some notes omitted)
F .... 51 66 81 .... (480 cents)
....... 52 67 82 .... (560 cents)
....... 53 68 83 .... (640 cents)
G .... 54 69 84 .... (720 cents)
(and so on)

At least it's easier than trying to navigate a 15-note per octave scale by playing on a standard 12-note per octave keyboard! In practice, you learn to use your ears and get a feel for how big an interval is on the piano roll, after using it for a while. These days I use the piano roll almost exclusively, unless I need precise timing (in which case I use the event list). Unfortunately the user-defined note names don't work with the DXi instruments that I use. So I temporarily redirect the track output to an external MIDI channel if I need to use a specialized notation.

Someone else will have to help with the details of programs like FTS or Finale, since I'm not familiar with those.

I don't know of any way out of the tedium of (something like?) putting little (artist's tape?) labels on the actual keys you finger, and keeping charts of the interval/pitch values you assigned to each MIDI note. It's a little easier in ET's because you can just put a little red sticky at each octave, I guess. But even with really groovy software and synths, etc., you're probably going to be reduced to something like that, until the whole process of thinking in new scales becomes more or less ingrained in your total process. No? Anyone?

Are there graphics/printing features in Scala or LMSO (or suchlike) that can print out nifty little easy-to-read pictures of a retuned keyboard, intervallically, chordally, &c.?

Cheers,

P

Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
seskandari2003 wrote:

> But, the piano roll view only has a 12-ET keyboard, so how can i
> hear more than 12 notes per octave with it?

I believe the keyboard only shows up if you're using the standard note
names. At any rate, it's just an added convenience; you don't need to
look at the keys to use it.

> I don't see how editing
> the names of notes will help me (i.e. allow me to hear more than 12
> notes per octave), especially for the Staff view. Moreover, wouldn't
> i have to make separate 'note name' presets for EVERY different
> tuning i want to use?

Yes, it's a bit of an annoyance. If you don't want to bother, you could
always write out a chart with the MIDI note numbers and use those
directly (just ignore the note names). But it's certainly better than
nothing. Once again, the number of notes you get per octave depends on
the settings of your MIDI device, and not anything you can set from
within Cakewalk. To sum up, if you leave MIDI note 60 tuned to Middle C,
and you tune a 15 note per octave scale, an octave above Middle C is
MIDI note 75 (60 + 15), and an octave below Middle C is 45 (60 - 15).

C .... 45 60 75 ....
....... 46 61 76 .... (80 cents above C)
(some notes omitted)
F .... 51 66 81 .... (480 cents)
....... 52 67 82 .... (560 cents)
....... 53 68 83 .... (640 cents)
G .... 54 69 84 .... (720 cents)
(and so on)

At least it's easier than trying to navigate a 15-note per octave scale
by playing on a standard 12-note per octave keyboard! In practice, you
learn to use your ears and get a feel for how big an interval is on the
piano roll, after using it for a while. These days I use the piano roll
almost exclusively, unless I need precise timing (in which case I use
the event list). Unfortunately the user-defined note names don't work
with the DXi instruments that I use. So I temporarily redirect the track
output to an external MIDI channel if I need to use a specialized notation.

Someone else will have to help with the details of programs like FTS or
Finale, since I'm not familiar with those.

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Regardless of what the keyboard looks like, the notes should be
there- with 15 tones per octave your next C would be on E, for
example, just plunk it and you'll hear.

With 17, I map from Ab (which is my reference tone anyway) and the
octaves land nicely on alternating Ab/G# and C#/Db keys, it was easy
to get used to. Then what would be a fourth on a conventional setup
is a neutral third, minor third fingerings are a second, fifth a
fourth, etc.

Thank heavens I never practiced my piano and am just a synthesizer
player, a real piano player would be climbing the walls :-) (a great
number of pianists just do rhythmic montages of cliches, it's a
muscle memory thing, not a listening thing).

-Cameron Bobro

Herman Miller wrote:

>Once again, the number of notes you get per octave depends on
>the settings of your MIDI device, and not anything you can set from
>within Cakewalk.

Where/what are these settings? FTS plays the 15-ET scale fine, so,
the settings for my soundcard/MIDI device in FTS is correct, right?
Is there something i need to do (besides just naming notes) that
will make it work in Cakewalk? If the # of notes per octave doesn't
depend on anything i can setup in Cakewalk, then why do you suggest
i simply label notes for?

>To sum up, if you leave MIDI note 60 tuned to Middle C,
>and you tune a 15 note per octave scale, an octave above Middle C is
>MIDI note 75 (60 + 15), and an octave below Middle C is 45 (60 -
>15).

>C .... 45 60 75 ....
>....... 46 61 76 .... (80 cents above C)
>(some notes omitted)
>F .... 51 66 81 .... (480 cents)
>....... 52 67 82 .... (560 cents)
>....... 53 68 83 .... (640 cents)
>G .... 54 69 84 .... (720 cents)
>(and so on)

I did not manually tune any of the MIDI notes or the 15-ET scale,
and AFAIK, nor did FTS. Once again, I chose a 15-TET scale in the
MIDI relaying view of FTS, and it played fine inside FTS. The
Instruments/ Define names portion of Cakewalk only gives labels to
notes; i could not find anything there that allowed me to tune, or
at least, define the tuning of MIDI notes: 0-127, and i could only
import an .ins file, which, if i'm not mistaken, contains just a
list of names for patches/notes. I believe you can manually tune
each MIDI note in FTS, but i don't know how, or how i could
apply it in Cakewalk.

Cameron Bobro wrote:

>Regardless of what the keyboard looks like, the notes should be
>there- with 15 tones per octave your next C would be on E, for
>example, just plunk it and you'll hear.

Where? the piano roll remains fixated with 12-ET, with or without,
the keyboard present. In either the Staff, Piano, or any view, Midi
note 60 is (C5) and note 72 (C6) is the octave above in 15-TET.

>With 17, I map from Ab (which is my reference tone anyway) and the
>octaves land nicely on alternating Ab/G# and C#/Db keys, it was easy
>to get used to. Then what would be a fourth on a conventional setup
>is a neutral third, minor third fingerings are a second, fifth a
>fourth, etc.

What do you mean 'map'? If your referring to simply naming MIDI
notes, then i don't know how that can change the tuning of the MIDI
notes. I already tried this, it only removed the Keyboard in the
piano roll view, in no way did it give me more than 12 tones per
octave.

"Map" is... like a map, this thing is in this place. Doesn't FTS
load Scala files, for example? These tuning files map your notes to
keys- a key on a MIDI keyboard is just a trigger for a MIDI events,
it's not actually bound to a particular note (unless the
manufacturer rigs it that way).

The "0" note in the Scala file will be mapped to middle C (unless
you change this deliberately). Then the rest of the tuning will go
from there. If there are 15 notes per octave, number 15 in the Scala
file will be the octave (because it is numbered from 0). And it will
be mapped 15 (counting from 0) keys higher and lower than your
middle C.

So try playing a bass A, tenor C, and alto E- if it's a unison, it's
working as it should. If it's an A minor chord, something is wrong.

If FTS sends tuning via Pitchbend, you may have to set your
Pitchbend Range on your virtual instrument to something specific,
probably "2".

-Cameron Bobro

> What do you mean 'map'? If your referring to simply naming MIDI
> notes, then i don't know how that can change the tuning of the
MIDI
> notes. I already tried this, it only removed the Keyboard in the
> piano roll view, in no way did it give me more than 12 tones per
> octave.
>