Indian popular music

I'm not sure if the term is Bollywood or Filmi. Seems to be Filmi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollywood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filmi

Filmi is Indian popular music as written and performed for Indian
cinema. The various Indian cinema industries produce thousands of
films a year, most of which are musicals and feature elaborate song
and dance numbers. There is constant work for pop music composers —
or music directors, to use the Indian term. Movie soundtracks are
released as tapes and CDs, before the movie is released. They
dominate pop music.

Filmi is often said to have begun in 1931, with the release of
Ardeshir M. Irani's Alam Ara and its popular soundtrack. In the
earliest years of the Indian cinema, filmi was generally Indian
(classical and folk) in inspiration, with some Western elements.
Over the years, the Western elements have increased significantly.

How much of current filmi is "Western" or "Indian" in style is a
matter of dispute, as is the desirability of the increasing
internationalization of a formerly regional style. Some fans prefer
the classic music of the past; others see it as old-fashioned and
whole-heartedly embrace novelty.

Filmi is also making converts and exerting influence beyond the
usual Desi audiences. Western music stores carry Bollywood
compilations. Baz Luhrman showcases the song "Chamma Chamma" from
China Gate in his 2002 movie Moulin Rouge. A. R. Rahman, one of the
most popular current music directors, now has a musical, Bombay
Dreams, playing in London and New York.

((Internet radio links here too within article.))

===============================================================

This is some music from:

http://www.gayaki.com

The sound quality is poor and I think some songs are in 12
as well. Pathetic, I can't always tell.
This is not classical, but has a beat. I wish I could
understand the words.

http://www.gayaki.com/songs-of-Fanaa.html

Click on:

Mere Haath Mein Tera Haath Ho (4:47) You'll get the idea
after 2 minutes.

http://www.gayaki.com/songs-of-Pyare-Mohan.html

Click on:

Ek Rub Sach Hai

And also:

Tu Jahan Bhi Jayegi (contains a few English words)

There is much more here. This is just a start.

***********************************************************
Supplemental: Richard Cooper comments on my music. I think
I need some lessons :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
In the end I find myself simply trying to appreciate what little
rhythm there is and the few notes that do harmonize well, but
ultimately that's like eating a cake with rocks in it and simply
trying to appreciate the cake and ignore the rocks. If you have
nothing else you can do then that makes some sense, but it would
make much more sense to simply not put rocks in the next cake you
bake.

I suppose that in enough time someone could learn to hear it as
music, but for me, music isn't about having to learn to appreciate
it. I think that music should be something that people hear and
they love it without any effort.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh man! Well, I did ask him for feedback.

-Stephen

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>

If one listens to:

http://www.gayaki.com/songs-of-Tom-Dick-And-Harry.html

Zara Jhoom Jhoom

for example, or anything else at gayaki.com, are we
talking about the same scale? Does anyone know what it
is in cents? (I think some songs are in 12. I don't think
this one is however. I know what 12 is in cents.)

Thanks,

-Stephen

On 7/15/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> Supplemental: Richard Cooper comments on my music. I think
> I need some lessons :)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> In the end I find myself simply trying to appreciate what little
> rhythm there is and the few notes that do harmonize well, but
> ultimately that's like eating a cake with rocks in it and simply
> trying to appreciate the cake and ignore the rocks. If you have
> nothing else you can do then that makes some sense, but it would
> make much more sense to simply not put rocks in the next cake you
> bake.
>
> I suppose that in enough time someone could learn to hear it as
> music, but for me, music isn't about having to learn to appreciate
> it. I think that music should be something that people hear and
> they love it without any effort.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Oh man! Well, I did ask him for feedback.
>
> -Stephen

Bah. That's the kind of thinking that leads to pop-music. If I only
listened to music that I liked the first time I heard it, I would
never have discovered Milton Babbit, Conlon Nancarrow, Neutral Milk
Hotel, the Eels, the Ruins, Oval, Terry Riley, Glenn Branca, or
anything else I listen to regularly.

Good music is music that grows, that gets better with repeated
listens. Send him some stuff from this group, maybe C Bailey's
Aftermath and Dave Seidel's Time Wave Canon, and for sure Dante
Rosati's bluegrass stuff. Send him Harry Partch's "Delusions of the
Fury" and Glenn Branca's guitar symphonies. All are pieces that
grabbed me from the beginning in some way, and said "keep listening,
this has promise." And of course send him my stuff, because I'm the
greatest composer who ever lived.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 7/15/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> > Supplemental: Richard Cooper comments on my music. I think
> > I need some lessons :)
> ...I think that music should be something that people hear and
> > they love it without any effort.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > Oh man! Well, I did ask him for feedback.
> >
> > -Stephen
>
> Bah. That's the kind of thinking that leads to pop-music. If I only
> listened to music that I liked the first time I heard it, I would
> never have discovered Milton Babbit, Conlon Nancarrow, Neutral Milk
> Hotel, the Eels, the Ruins, Oval, Terry Riley, Glenn Branca, or
> anything else I listen to regularly.
>
> Good music is music that grows, that gets better with repeated
> listens. Send him some stuff from this group, maybe C Bailey's
> Aftermath and Dave Seidel's Time Wave Canon, and for sure Dante
> Rosati's bluegrass stuff. Send him Harry Partch's "Delusions of the
> Fury" and Glenn Branca's guitar symphonies. All are pieces that
> grabbed me from the beginning in some way, and said "keep
listening,
> this has promise." And of course send him my stuff, because I'm the
> greatest composer who ever lived.
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>
-TRISTAN

I do have trouble putting a song together. I am sending him
some Indian popular music links now. I don't want to overwhelm
him.

-Stephen

>
> I do have trouble putting a song together. I am sending him
> some Indian popular music links now. I don't want to overwhelm
> him.
>
> -Stephen

I don't think I've heard much of your music. Can you send me something?

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
TRISTAN

But it has rocks in it. It is nice of you to ask though.
I was doing something on Saturday that was a little more
involved than usual. I posted some stuff here a while back.
Basically I played a few chords (3 or 4) in my 24 note scale.
There wasn't anything of great value in it. Maybe eventually.

-Stephen

>
> I don't think I've heard much of your music. Can you send me
something?
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

Various info on Filmi, just in case there is interest by
someone here. Also some info on scale used in Filmi.

Just skip this post now if you have no interest in this matter.

-Stephen

__________________________________________________________________

Apparently the scale used in filmi is here:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/encyclopaedia/f/F34.HTM

For a notion of the scale of the Indian film industry see Ashish
Rajadhyaksha and Paul Willemen's The Encyclopedia Of Indian Cinema
(British Film Institute, '94). Filmi has influenced the popular
music of many countries, reaching audiences wherever subtitled
Indian films are shown, whether Egypt or Israel, Germany or Ghana,
Myanmar (Burma) or Trinidad.

http://ucpress.edu/books/bfi/pages/PROD0008.html

_______________________________________________________________

Page about frequently asked questions about Indian music. A
10 minute read. Some of it is below.

http://chandrakantha.com/faq/w_musician.html#bollywood

More info on scale used:

Can I enjoy Indian vocal even if I don't understand any Indian
language?

Even in India, not everybody understands the lyrics. The singers
themselves do not always understand the words that they are
singing. There are simply too many languages. Since this is not an
impediment to the enjoyment of vocal music in India, it need not be
an impediment to you.

...However, the situation may be different with the popular genres.
Film songs have absorbed many Western influences. For such Western
inspired genres, there may be a heavy reliance upon chords.

Are the pitches in the Indian scales the same as in the Western
scale?

Popular genre such as film songs may use the standard Western
tempered scale. However, traditional Indian music is definitely not
based upon the tempered scale. It is instead based upon some type
of just intonation. Therefore, the "semitones" will sometimes be
more than 100 cents and at other times they will be less than 100
cents.

Although there are constant debates as to exactly what the intervals
should be, we may make a few general observations.

The natural 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th correspond to their UNTEMPERED
Western counterparts.
A minor 2nd is slightly flatter when descending compared to when it
is ascending.
A natural 7th is slight sharper when ascending and slightly flatter
when descending.
The minor 3rd and the minor 6th have different intervals depending
upon other scalar characteristics.
These are just rules of thumb, so they may not always be applicable.

____________________________________________________________________

Left side of page lists the many different genres of Indian music:

http://www.musicindiaonline.com

____________________________________________________________

Talks of musical genres in India as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_India

Excerpt:

The biggest form of Indian pop music is filmi, or songs from Indian
musical films. Independent pop acts such as Alisha Chinoy, Shaan,
and rock bands like Indus Creed, Indian Ocean, and Euphoria exist
and have gained mass appeal with the advent of cable music
television.

_________________________________________________________________

And lastly, sound AND silence in Indian cinema. Skipping down
to:

PART II
The Meaning of Culture

and reading to the bottom, you'll actually find some interesting
stuff. Only excerpts are here on this post.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The function of the Hindi film, according to Shyam. Benegal, a noted
Indian film­ maker, is to externalize an inner psychological conflict
and handle the inner passion generated by social and political
processes...These events and persons are both ideal types and
representatives of different aspects of a fragmented self.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Does Indian mainstream cinema have a cultural identity that is
predominantly and obviously Indian? Or, has it become rather hybrid
with influences of Hollywood pervading the screen with sexual
innuendoes and graphic violence?

Culture is not a rigid, static word...

It does not exist in a vacuum. Nor is it bound anymore within the
framework of geographical parameters which are themselves constantly
threatened by modern warfare and communicational globalisation via
the electronic media. Culture therefore, is itself "hybrid" in its
sense of defiance of all Western notions of what constitutes "Indian
Culture"

Culture has initially meant, in our context, the monuments of
antiquity, the temple sculpture of a glorious past, the texts of
ancient scriptures, all "the wonder that was." So when we turn to
look at present­day cultural practices, weighed down as we are, by
the golden past and therefore, by a certain notion of culture, we
react with incomprehension, dismissal, embarassment or shame.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The Musical Metaphor:

Music in Indian cinema is unique in its cultural implications
because it spells out the Indian­ness of cinema even when the songs
or the background score are influenced, inspired and now, even
plagiarised from Western, African and Arabic hits. Music in Indian
mainstream cinema defines a new synthesis of traditional and
international genres of music. Each level involves such a synthesis
that any one particular level cannot simply be reduced to another. A
cinema song cannot be reduced to its classical or folk roots.

No moderm musical form from any part of the globe, including jazz,
can boast of such diversity, richness, subtlety and reach as the
Hindi film song can. The Hindi film song has cut through all
language barriers in India to engage in lively communication with a
nation where more than 20 languages are spoken.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The Politics of Silence as a Metaphor of the Oppressed :

"Only in a sound film, can a director use silence for dramatic
effecf' wrote VY Perkins. Music director Bliaskar Chandavarkar
says "if you cannot express things through music, you can use
silence which is likely to reveal more than what music or dialogue
could have revealed.

http://www.filmsound.org/india/

___________________________________________________________________

If there is interest in the music...lower bass to slightly
increase the quality of the musicical playback.

http://www.gayaki.com/songs-of-Eight-Shani.html

Perhaps try:

Ishq Ishq

Hi Stephen,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" wrote:
>
[snip]
> ***********************************************************
> Supplemental: Richard Cooper comments on my music. I think
> I need some lessons :)
...
> I suppose that in enough time someone could learn to hear it as
> music, but for me, music isn't about having to learn to appreciate
> it. I think that music should be something that people hear and
> they love it without any effort.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Oh man! Well, I did ask him for feedback.

;-) Amazing! His last sentence accurately describes my first
and continuing reactions to Indian film music. It's the kind
of music that reaches inside you, grabs your heart and liver,
and twists! And no amount of intellectual analysis will ever
adequately explain this to me.

Regards,
Yahya

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hi Stephen,
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> > ***********************************************************
> > Supplemental: Richard Cooper comments on my music. I think
> > I need some lessons :)
> ...
> > I suppose that in enough time someone could learn to hear it as
> > music, but for me, music isn't about having to learn to
appreciate
> > it. I think that music should be something that people hear and
> > they love it without any effort.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > Oh man! Well, I did ask him for feedback.
>
> ;-) Amazing! His last sentence accurately describes my first
> and continuing reactions to Indian film music. It's the kind
> of music that reaches inside you, grabs your heart and liver,
> and twists! And no amount of intellectual analysis will ever
> adequately explain this to me.

+++++ Yahya

I e-mailed Richard some links to Indian music. I have to wait
for his response.

What I think is neat about popular Indian
music is that is accepts anything. Much of it uses
notes of 12 EDO Western music and a few in between. Microtonal.
Yet useful and modern.

This really seems to be what I've been
looking for in non-12 as far as listening goes. Maybe even
playing, eventually. Not sure. It took me a while to realize
that I can never make music like this (that is, a number of
musicians playing) on the spot. One *almost* can with a drum-
machine going in the backround and spliting the keyboard up,
I suppose. Still it's not the same.

Do you have a favorite internet radio site or whatever?

Thanks for the feedback,

-Stephen

>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>

>> ***********************************************************
>> Supplemental: Richard Cooper comments on my music. I think
>> I need some lessons :)
>...
>> I suppose that in enough time someone could learn to hear it as
>> music, but for me, music isn't about having to learn to appreciate
>> it. I think that music should be something that people hear and
>> they love it without any effort.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Oh man! Well, I did ask him for feedback.
>
>;-) Amazing! His last sentence ...

To me, this sentence is the exact opposite of anything
desirable or even truthful. All music appreciation requires
learning -- you just might not remember when you learned
it. See:

http://www.lumma.org/microwave/#2005.09.21

-Carl

Stephen,

> Do you have a favorite internet radio site or whatever?

You could try this Internet radio, lot of Indian fusion music
and some classical Hindustani and Karnatic music.

<http://radio.tabla.com>

Download the Low or Med to get a file called 'listen.pls'
Just Drag'n Drop it in iTunes and plays with no problem.

This site also offers to promote our own music, for free.

Bye,
Philippe

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Phi" <phi@...> wrote:
>
Philippe

Thanks. Maybe midweek I'll try.

-Stephen

> Stephen,
>
> > Do you have a favorite internet radio site or whatever?
>
> You could try this Internet radio, lot of Indian fusion music
> and some classical Hindustani and Karnatic music.
>
> <http://radio.tabla.com>
>
> Download the Low or Med to get a file called 'listen.pls'
> Just Drag'n Drop it in iTunes and plays with no problem.
>
> This site also offers to promote our own music, for free.
>
> Bye,
> Philippe
>

> Thanks. Maybe midweek I'll try.

You're welcome ;-)
Many of these artists are also writing popular music for Bollywood
movies, such Hariprasad Chaurasia whith is currently on the air
at TABLA.COM:

<http://radio.tabla.com:8000/played.html>

> > > Do you have a favorite internet radio site or whatever?
> > <http://radio.tabla.com>

Bye,
Philippe

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >> ***********************************************************
> >> Supplemental: Richard Cooper comments on my music. I think
> >> I need some lessons :)
> >...
> >> I suppose that in enough time someone could learn to hear it as
> >> music, but for me, music isn't about having to learn to
appreciate
> >> it. I think that music should be something that people hear
and
> >> they love it without any effort.
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> >> Oh man! Well, I did ask him for feedback.
> >
> >;-) Amazing! His last sentence ...
>
> To me, this sentence is the exact opposite of anything
> desirable or even truthful. All music appreciation requires
> learning -- you just might not remember when you learned
> it. See:
>
> http://www.lumma.org/microwave/#2005.09.21
>
> -Carl

++++ Carl

I came across this and thought it was weird. I'm not agreeing
or disagreeing with you.

"I think the reason people like music is to *suppress* thought---
the wrong kinds of thought---not to produce it."

Marvin Minsky

The End of Science (page 186)

Marvin Minsky, one of the founders of artificial intelligence
and much more. Even a child prodigy in music as well ironically.

-Stephen

>++++ Carl
>
> I came across this and thought it was weird. I'm not agreeing
> or disagreeing with you.
>
>"I think the reason people like music is to *suppress* thought---
> the wrong kinds of thought---not to produce it."
>
> Marvin Minsky
>
> The End of Science (page 186)
>
> Marvin Minsky, one of the founders of artificial intelligence
> and much more. Even a child prodigy in music as well ironically.
>
>-Stephen

I'm not sure what he's talking about here, but it sounds
vaguely Freudian (re. his notion of "censors", which Minksy
is quite fond of) and very Minskian. Unfortunately, it
probably isn't correct.

-Carl

> Do you have a favorite internet radio site or whatever?

Something like this one?

<http://emam.us/audio/InstDevotion/AmbaAmba.mp3>

From Emam & Friends:
<http://www.emamandfriends.com>

(Also on iTunes)

Bye,
Philippe

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >++++ Carl
> >
> > I came across this and thought it was weird. I'm not agreeing
> > or disagreeing with you.
> >
> >"I think the reason people like music is to *suppress* thought---
> > the wrong kinds of thought---not to produce it."
> >
> > Marvin Minsky
> >
> > The End of Science (page 186)
> >
> > Marvin Minsky, one of the founders of artificial intelligence
> > and much more. Even a child prodigy in music as well ironically.
> >
> >-Stephen
>
> I'm not sure what he's talking about here, but it sounds
> vaguely Freudian (re. his notion of "censors", which Minksy
> is quite fond of) and very Minskian. Unfortunately, it
> probably isn't correct.
>
> -Carl
>
+++++ Carl (thanks for responding)

In context:

Minsky was a child prodigy in music,too,but eventually he decided
that music was a soporific. "I think the reason people like music
is to *suppress* thought ---the wrong kinds of thought---not to
produce it." Minksky still occasionally found himself composing
"Bach-like things" ---and electric piano crowded his office---
but he tried to resist the impulse. "I had to kill the musician
at some point." he said. "It comes back every now and then, and
I hit it."

It seems that he feels that you can't solve extremely complex
problems and/or concentrate on learning something new if you
are distracted (?) He seems music doesn't result in technological
progess.

Your other comments here:

1. What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
meant to entertain an audience!

Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
well as great entertainment.

Perhaps I don't understand your thoughts here Carl. I just saw
something on, I think it was the VH1 channel. Something like the
"Top 100 Rock artists". They ranked Kiss in the top 10 (20?).
They said their music was very basic, yet everyone knew a Kiss
song.

Even the basic music of Kiss must have major chords and
minor chords. Yet only a minority of Kiss fans know what a major
or minor chord is. A minority as well probably know
the definition of 'octave'.

I don't see how understanding music theory better would help
them like Kiss more. These fans (whatever percentage) understand
no music theory and are very happy with the music of this group.

Maybe basic music is a more powerful distraction from the troubles
of this life. Maybe we (ie. me) try *not* to think about the
bad stuff going on for a while. A mini-vacation for the brain.

Musicians *have* to think about what is going on (musically) to
compose new
material. They need music theory. Their job, their work, is to
compose. They may have so much fun doing it that it doesn't seem
like work to them however.

My Best,

-Stephen

>> > I came across this and thought it was weird. I'm not agreeing
>> > or disagreeing with you.
>> >
>> >"I think the reason people like music is to *suppress* thought---
>> > the wrong kinds of thought---not to produce it."
>> >
>> > Marvin Minsky
>> >
>> > The End of Science (page 186)
>> >
>> > Marvin Minsky, one of the founders of artificial intelligence
>> > and much more. Even a child prodigy in music as well ironically.
>> >
>> >-Stephen
>>
>> I'm not sure what he's talking about here, but it sounds
>> vaguely Freudian (re. his notion of "censors", which Minksy
>> is quite fond of) and very Minskian. Unfortunately, it
>> probably isn't correct.
>
> In context:
>
> Minsky was a child prodigy in music,too,but eventually he decided
> that music was a soporific. "I think the reason people like music
> is to *suppress* thought ---the wrong kinds of thought---not to
> produce it." Minksky still occasionally found himself composing
> "Bach-like things" ---and electric piano crowded his office---
> but he tried to resist the impulse. "I had to kill the musician
> at some point." he said. "It comes back every now and then, and
> I hit it."
>
> It seems that he feels that you can't solve extremely complex
> problems and/or concentrate on learning something new if you
> are distracted (?) He seems music doesn't result in technological
> progess.
>
> Your other comments here:
>
>1. What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
>meant to entertain an audience!
>
>Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
>more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
>well as great entertainment.
>
> Perhaps I don't understand your thoughts here Carl. I just saw
> something on, I think it was the VH1 channel. Something like the
> "Top 100 Rock artists". They ranked Kiss in the top 10 (20?).
> They said their music was very basic, yet everyone knew a Kiss
> song.
>
> Even the basic music of Kiss must have major chords and
> minor chords. Yet only a minority of Kiss fans know what a major
> or minor chord is. A minority as well probably know
> the definition of 'octave'.
>
> I don't see how understanding music theory better would help
> them like Kiss more.

I'm talking about learning how to hear, not learning music theory.

> Maybe basic music is a more powerful distraction from the troubles
> of this life. Maybe we (ie. me) try *not* to think about the
> bad stuff going on for a while. A mini-vacation for the brain.

Let me put it this way: Minsky hasn't produced recognized as useful
in his field in about 30 years.

-Carl

Einstein remarked that he got his concept of an expanding universe from Mozart.
I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music , that they would not exist otherwise.
I needed go into the evidence of music in helping people learn

Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>> I came across this and thought it was weird. I'm not agreeing
>>>> or disagreeing with you.
>>>>
>>>> "I think the reason people like music is to *suppress* thought---
>>>> the wrong kinds of thought---not to produce it."
>>>>
>>>> Marvin Minsky
>>>>
>>>> The End of Science (page 186)
>>>>
>>>> Marvin Minsky, one of the founders of artificial intelligence
>>>> and much more. Even a child prodigy in music as well ironically.
>>>>
>>>> -Stephen
>>>> >>> I'm not sure what he's talking about here, but it sounds
>>> vaguely Freudian (re. his notion of "censors", which Minksy
>>> is quite fond of) and very Minskian. Unfortunately, it
>>> probably isn't correct.
>>> >> In context:
>>
>> Minsky was a child prodigy in music,too,but eventually he decided
>> that music was a soporific. "I think the reason people like music
>> is to *suppress* thought ---the wrong kinds of thought---not to
>> produce it." Minksky still occasionally found himself composing
>> "Bach-like things" ---and electric piano crowded his office---
>> but he tried to resist the impulse. "I had to kill the musician
>> at some point." he said. "It comes back every now and then, and
>> I hit it."
>>
>> It seems that he feels that you can't solve extremely complex
>> problems and/or concentrate on learning something new if you
>> are distracted (?) He seems music doesn't result in technological
>> progess.
>>
>> Your other comments here:
>>
>> 1. What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
>> meant to entertain an audience!
>>
>> Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
>> more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
>> well as great entertainment. >>
>> Perhaps I don't understand your thoughts here Carl. I just saw
>> something on, I think it was the VH1 channel. Something like the
>> "Top 100 Rock artists". They ranked Kiss in the top 10 (20?).
>> They said their music was very basic, yet everyone knew a Kiss
>> song. >>
>> Even the basic music of Kiss must have major chords and
>> minor chords. Yet only a minority of Kiss fans know what a major
>> or minor chord is. A minority as well probably know
>> the definition of 'octave'.
>>
>> I don't see how understanding music theory better would help
>> them like Kiss more.
>> >
> I'm talking about learning how to hear, not learning music theory.
>
> >> Maybe basic music is a more powerful distraction from the troubles
>> of this life. Maybe we (ie. me) try *not* to think about the
>> bad stuff going on for a while. A mini-vacation for the brain.
>> >
> Let me put it this way: Minsky hasn't produced recognized as useful
> in his field in about 30 years.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> 1. What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
> meant to entertain an audience!
>
> Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
> more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
> well as great entertainment.

...

> I don't see how understanding music theory better would help
> them like Kiss more.

It wouldn't, and that's not the point that Carl was (I think) making.

It is possible to know nothing about music theory, but still actively
listen to music in search of some kind of transcendence or
enlightenment, and not just as something to stop thinking to. It has
nothing to do with academics or facts or theories, and everything to
do with the essence of what makes us human.

Consider films as an example. There are plenty of flicks that have
awesome special effects, lots of action and glory and romance, and
they're pretty entertaining. We sit in the theatre, our heart race
rises, and we say it's good fun after work with friends. And after a
month or a year, we forget about it. After all, there's a new movie
showing, with a bigger budget and more effects!

On the other hand, there are other films which affect us differently.
Maybe it wasn't quite as slick, the effects are pretty shoddy, etc.
Sometimes we get confused by strange plot twists, and we're challenged
to figure out just what's going on. Nevertheless, something sticks in
our minds. When we leave the theatre, we see the world just a little
bit differently. Months and years later, we still find ourselves
going back in our memory and turning the film over, pondering what it
was that struck us. If it affects us enough, it might even change the
course of our life.

The experience of the 2nd film is completely different to the 1st, and
it has little to do with entertainment. The same goes for music, or
any other media: the majority of people simply want sensory candy to
anesthetize their brain... but a few renegades actually listen in
order to learn something: not about theory or facts, but about the
reality of our humanity.

I would recommend reading "A Brave New World" as an extreme example of
exactly what I mean. If you believe there's any truth to his message,
it will really change your perspective.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but if nothing else it serves to
underscore the important principle for any musician: "it's not about
the theory."

-Chris

>I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music, that
>they would not exist otherwise.

It seems true for me at least.

> I needed go into the evidence of music in helping people learn

The famous 'Mozart' experiments are a good example (the authors of at
least one study take pains to point out that any subtle music works,
but the media keeps reporting it as the "Mozart effect").

Verbal crunching power -- the ability to speak well, learn new
languages, fake accents, and do impersonations -- may be improved
by listening to music.

The practice of following (let alone playing!) multiple simultaneous
voices in counterpoint is obviously good mental exercise.

-Carl

> I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music , that
> they would not exist otherwise.

This is an interesting corollary to the current trend in linguistic
theory which asserts that language does not merely express thought,
but is actually necessary to create it. The medium can't be separated
from the message.

i think Wittgenstein might have touched upon this

c.m.bryan wrote:
>> I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music , that
>> they would not exist otherwise.
>> >
> This is an interesting corollary to the current trend in linguistic
> theory which asserts that language does not merely express thought,
> but is actually necessary to create it. The medium can't be separated
> from the message.
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Phi" <phi@...> wrote:
>
Philippe

It is nice. Very complex. Is this classical Indian music?

This is what I'm getting into now. More basic. Not in English
unfortunately. (:|

The first 3 minutes give you a good idea. Stuff like this,
maybe rockish too, with lyrics in English, (if I can find all
this somehow somewhere.)

http://www.gayaki.com/songs-of-Tom-Dick-And-Harry.html

Zara Jhoom Jhoom

-Stephen

> >> <http://emam.us/audio/InstDevotion/AmbaAmba.mp3>
>
> > Philippe
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>
wrote:
>
> > 1. What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
> > meant to entertain an audience!
> >
> > Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
> > more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
> > well as great entertainment.
>
> ...
>
> > I don't see how understanding music theory better would help
> > them like Kiss more.
>
>
> It wouldn't, and that's not the point that Carl was (I think)
making.
>
> It is possible to know nothing about music theory, but still
actively
> listen to music in search of some kind of transcendence or
> enlightenment, and not just as something to stop thinking to. It
has
> nothing to do with academics or facts or theories, and everything
to
> do with the essence of what makes us human.
>
> Consider films as an example. There are plenty of flicks that have
> awesome special effects, lots of action and glory and romance, and
> they're pretty entertaining. We sit in the theatre, our heart race
> rises, and we say it's good fun after work with friends. And
after a
> month or a year, we forget about it. After all, there's a new
movie
> showing, with a bigger budget and more effects!

++++++++++ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120201

>
> On the other hand, there are other films which affect us
differently.
> Maybe it wasn't quite as slick, the effects are pretty shoddy, etc.
> Sometimes we get confused by strange plot twists, and we're
challenged
> to figure out just what's going on. Nevertheless, something
sticks in
> our minds. When we leave the theatre, we see the world just a
little
> bit differently. Months and years later, we still find ourselves
> going back in our memory and turning the film over, pondering what
it
> was that struck us. If it affects us enough, it might even change
the
> course of our life.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277371

>
> The experience of the 2nd film is completely different to the 1st,
and
> it has little to do with entertainment. The same goes for music,
or
> any other media: the majority of people simply want sensory candy
to
> anesthetize their brain... but a few renegades actually listen in
> order to learn something: not about theory or facts, but about the
> reality of our humanity.

Seriously now. I can't see how this is possible by the music
alone, except under the rarist circumstances. ("Taps" for example
as I mentioned a while back.) Are you talking about the lyrics
of a song? This is what is important to me.

Like what is this without the lryics? (This was a popular song
a while back, maybe you can recall the melody, (I hope). It has
come to mind today.

http://www.afn.org/~afn30091/songs/s/sting-fortress.htm

If I never heard this song before and *only* heard the music
minus the lyrics, OR the music with the lyrics in a foregin
language, it would not have any effect on me.

So if I listen to more and more music I will go up the grades
to high school and college? I'm not being nasty. I just don't
understand how I can learn more about "the reality of our humanity"
unless one in talking about the lyrics involved as being *more*
important than the notes in almost all cases.

>
> I would recommend reading "A Brave New World" as an extreme
example of
> exactly what I mean. If you believe there's any truth to his
message,
> it will really change your perspective.

+++ No I haven't read it.
>
> Sorry if this is off-topic, but if nothing else it serves to
> underscore the important principle for any musician: "it's not
about
> the theory."

Thanks Chris and Carl,

(off-topic posts are the easist for me)

-Stephen

>
> -Chris
>

> >
> > I would recommend reading "A Brave New World" as an extreme
> example of
> > exactly what I mean. If you believe there's any truth to his
> message,
> > it will really change your perspective.

+++ Summary of Brave New World here:

http://www.online-literature.com/aldous_huxley/brave_new_world/

Much of this is North Korea. Though I do see sentiments here
that relfect what some say/feel about Christianity in America:

http://www.online-literature.com/aldous_huxley/brave_new_world/3/

He lectures about the importance of individual, emotional and social
stability and how Christianity caused instability. "All crosses had
their tops cut and became T's".

Thanks Chris,

-Stephen

Jung makes a big to do about the cross being a unbalanced mandala

stephenszpak wrote:
>>> I would recommend reading "A Brave New World" as an extreme >>> >> example of
>> >>> exactly what I mean. If you believe there's any truth to his >>> >> message,
>> >>> it will really change your perspective.
>>> >
> +++ Summary of Brave New World here:
>
>
> http://www.online-literature.com/aldous_huxley/brave_new_world/
>
> Much of this is North Korea. Though I do see sentiments here
> that relfect what some say/feel about Christianity in America:
>
> http://www.online-literature.com/aldous_huxley/brave_new_world/3/
>
> He lectures about the importance of individual, emotional and social > stability and how Christianity caused instability. "All crosses had > their tops cut and became T's".
>
> Thanks Chris,
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Rock, then pop artists in India:

(this is mostly for myself, as I get into all this)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_(band)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Creed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphoria_%28Indian_band%29

=========================================================

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alisha_Chinoy

Lover Girl (has some English lyrics)

http://ww.smashits.com/index.cfm?
Page=Audio&SubPage=ShowTracks&AlbumID=4716#

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaan_%28singer%29

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*********************************************

This site has some music:

http://ww.smashits.com/music/cat37/pop.html

-Stephen

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
> Kraig

I guess this is from you:

> I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music ,
that
> they would not exist otherwise.

I don't understand this. I think you are saying that music
can make us cry,laugh, etc.

-Stephen

I am saying there are all types of subtle emotions that one does not experience in other ways.
there are not words for these per se.
or at best might be thought of as a complex of emotions

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> > wrote:
> >> Kraig
>> >
> I guess this is from you:
>
> >> I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music , >> > that > >> they would not exist otherwise.
>> >
> I don't understand this. I think you are saying that music
> can make us cry,laugh, etc. >
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:

Kraig

I think Jung would have misinterpreted George Orr's dreams.

If you have (or haven't seen) The Lathe of Heaven , let me know,
(perhaps in Meta). I just read that the book is much better than
the movie.

George Orr : Did you ever happen to think, Dr. Haber, that there
might be other people who dream the way I do? That reality is being
changed out from under us, replaced, renewed, all the time -- only
we don't know it?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081036/quotes

-Stephen

>
> Jung makes a big to do...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Phi" <phi@...> wrote:
>
Richard Cooper comments on:

> <http://emam.us/audio/InstDevotion/AmbaAmba.mp3>

You can play along with this on your keyboard, it's mostly C#,
D#, E, F# and G#. At the beginning the frequencies aren't
exactly the same, somewhere between the middle and the end the
frequencies are exactly the same, and then by the end they are
no longer exactly the same again. If you just play the main
sequence of notes, which is C# G# F# E F# G# G#, it isn't too
difficult to hear how they are well in tune with what is being
played at that one point in the song, but slightly out of tune
at other times.

So it's doing what I suspected. It's using the same seven note
scale that we use, except that whereas we assign constant
frequencies to the notes, this song changes which frequencies
represent each note throughout the song. Basically, the song is
written with the same seven notes that western music is written
with, it simply selects the frequencies for those notes from a
different frequency scale. It's not a difference that really
stands out; I wasn't even sure that it was microtonal until I
played along with it on my keyboard.

i like the idea that melody appeals to the intellect, harmony to the
emotions and rhythm to the body. In all three areas music can express unique
ideas, emotions and energies that cannot be evoked any other way.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:23 PM
>To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [MMM] music appreciation
>
>
>I am saying there are all types of subtle emotions that one does not
>experience in other ways.
> there are not words for these per se.
> or at best might be thought of as a complex of emotions
>
>stephenszpak wrote:
>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Kraig
>>>
>>
>> I guess this is from you:
>>
>>
>>> I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music ,
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> they would not exist otherwise.
>>>
>>
>> I don't understand this. I think you are saying that music
>> can make us cry,laugh, etc.
>>
>> -Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@...>
wrote:
Dante

Do you have any comments on where lyrics fit it?

(back in a few days)

-Stephen

> i like the idea that melody appeals to the intellect, harmony to the
> emotions and rhythm to the body. In all three areas music can
express unique
> ideas, emotions and energies that cannot be evoked any other way.
>
>

Hi Stephen,

<http://emam.us/audio/InstDevotion/AmbaAmba.mp3>

> It is nice. Very complex. Is this classical Indian music?

Here the site where this mp3 comes from:

<http://emam.us/album_InstDev.htm>

This is a traditional popular song, not classical.

You could also get some nice ideas about modern songs here:

<http://www.swarsystems.com/SwarShala/Cafe/SwarCafe.htm>

Scroll down this page and... enjoy ;-)

Bye,
Philippe

lyrics are words so they are another art altogether (although the sound of
words is in the realm of music). music can be used to "illustrate" the
partial meaning of words, but music can also go far beyond words in certain
ways, as also words can go far beyond music in other ways.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of stephenszpak
>Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:35 PM
>To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [MMM] music appreciation
>
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@...>
>wrote:
> Dante
>
> Do you have any comments on where lyrics fit it?
>
> (back in a few days)
>
>-Stephen
>
>> i like the idea that melody appeals to the intellect, harmony to the
>> emotions and rhythm to the body. In all three areas music can
>express unique
>> ideas, emotions and energies that cannot be evoked any other way.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

i would tend to switch harmony and melody around here

Dante Rosati wrote:
> i like the idea that melody appeals to the intellect, harmony to the
> emotions and rhythm to the body. In all three areas music can express unique
> ideas, emotions and energies that cannot be evoked any other way.
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
>> From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:23 PM
>> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [MMM] music appreciation
>>
>>
>> I am saying there are all types of subtle emotions that one does not
>> experience in other ways.
>> there are not words for these per se.
>> or at best might be thought of as a complex of emotions
>>
>> stephenszpak wrote:
>> >>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>> Kraig
>>>>
>>>> >>> I guess this is from you:
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>> I also think that certain emotions exist only because of music ,
>>>>
>>>> >>> that
>>>
>>> >>>> they would not exist otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> >>> I don't understand this. I think you are saying that music
>>> can make us cry,laugh, etc.
>>>
>>> -Stephen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >> --
>> Kraig Grady
>> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>> The Wandering Medicine Show
>> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

wow thats interesting! how would you explain the cliche
major/minor=happy/sad as an intellectual effect?

>-----Original Message-----
>From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:47 AM
>To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [MMM] music appreciation
>
>
>i would tend to switch harmony and melody around here
>
>Dante Rosati wrote:
>> i like the idea that melody appeals to the intellect, harmony to the
>> emotions and rhythm to the body. In all three areas music can
>express unique
>> ideas, emotions and energies that cannot be evoked any other way.

manipulation!:)
but the same can be said of melody.
Tchaikovsky is usually not considered writing overly intellectual themes for instance.

actually i think of melody and harmony related tho the emotions
form to the intellect.
does that work for you :)
Dante Rosati wrote:
> wow thats interesting! how would you explain the cliche
> major/minor=happy/sad as an intellectual effect?
>
> >
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

i didn't mean that melody is intellectual, just that melody is followed by
the mind, whereas harmonies are felt by the emotions and rhythm gets yer
toes a tappin'.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:12 AM
>To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [MMM] music appreciation
>
>
>manipulation!:)
> but the same can be said of melody.
> Tchaikovsky is usually not considered writing overly intellectual
>themes for instance.
>
>actually i think of melody and harmony related tho the emotions
> form to the intellect.
> does that work for you :)
>
>
>Dante Rosati wrote:
>> wow thats interesting! how would you explain the cliche
>> major/minor=happy/sad as an intellectual effect?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Stephen:
I have experienced firsthand the emotional and intellectual growth
that music can bring. A few years ago, I only listened to one band
(not really important, but it was They Might Be Giants) and couldn't
understand why anyone would need to listen to anything else. E sounded
whiny, Bach was too cold and dead, and Pierre Boulez just sounded like
random notes.

My friend gave me a tape of prominent Japanoise artists, all of the
big names, Boredoms, Merzbow, Ruins. I don't listen to most of them at
all regularly anymore, but it was enough of a shock to my system to
get me thinking, there's a whole lot more to music than quirky pop
tunes. It opened me up to the idea that I might hate a song one day,
and love it the next.

The most respect I can have for a piece is one that "lays its eggs" in
my brain, a song that I don't hardly notice when it plays, but later I
keep thinking about it. I have felt things listening to Tatania
Nikolayeva that I have never been able to articulate, and probably
never will.

It's usually not immediate. It takes a lot of effort to listen to John
Butcher or Sachiko M, but I find that the experience is rewarding in a
way that can't be described in terms outside of music. It's a realm
that exists all on its own, outside of theory, outside of concrete
emotional language. "How are you feeling today?" "Rather ooooooOOOoo
bip badada beeboo." "I'm sorry. I hope you feel better tomorrow"

Sometimes I listen to Liquid Tension Experiment, Lateduster or FCS
North, all progressive rock bands with a sense of play about them, and
that can have a repressive, relaxing quality. But just as often I
listen to Conlon Nancarrow, Milton Babbit, or Otomo Yoshihide because
I want something to chew on, to turn over in my head and think "why
that sound, why there?" keeping in mind that the question is more
important to me than the answer.

Whenever I'm feeling sad and listless, I watch the same movie, "Alien
Nine". It's a brutally violent movie, but also very subtle and
complex. Sure, it pushes out the thoughts I don't want, the me-centric
thoughts, but it also gives me a nearly infinite world of things to
think about, what each event means within the metaphorical framework
of the whole. Like most music, everything is a level of abstraction
away from the surface. It's not a movie about little girls catching
aliens any more than the Musical Offering is "about" the
fully-diminished 7th chord.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

> The famous 'Mozart' experiments are a good example (the authors of at
> least one study take pains to point out that any subtle music works,
> but the media keeps reporting it as the "Mozart effect").

The Mazart effect has been thoroughly discredited however, and only
exists now as an excuse to move those recordings out of the bargain
bin... ;)

-Chris

> Seriously now. I can't see how this is possible by the music
> alone, except under the rarist circumstances. ("Taps" for example
> as I mentioned a while back.) Are you talking about the lyrics
> of a song? This is what is important to me.
>
> Like what is this without the lryics?

You are absolutely correct that most pop music would have no meaning
outside of the lyrics. This is exactly the point! You need to
*begin* to listen to music that does.

Listen to any instrumental music that is generally accepted as "good,"
and instead of trying to describe how the music makes you feel in
words, simply absorb it and let it move you without trying to classify
or explain it. Try to listen to the music in such a way that you get
a glimpse of the mind of the person making it.

I think this concept would be called "mystical" in religious language.
I think it's a healthy attitude in either case :)

-Chris

At 08:16 AM 7/20/2006, you wrote:
>> The famous 'Mozart' experiments are a good example (the authors of at
>> least one study take pains to point out that any subtle music works,
>> but the media keeps reporting it as the "Mozart effect").
>
>The Mazart effect has been thoroughly discredited however,

Wikipedia says it's disputed. I believed an article Erv sent
me where the authors claimed to successfully repeat a previous
result.

According to Wikipedia the challengers are Chabris and Steele.
Looks like the former did only a meta-analysis, but this

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kms/research/Steele.htm

has 7 papers you can download about it.

-Carl

> Wikipedia says it's disputed. I believed an article Erv sent
> me where the authors claimed to successfully repeat a previous
> result.
>
> According to Wikipedia the challengers are Chabris and Steele.
> Looks like the former did only a meta-analysis, but this
>
> http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kms/research/Steele.htm
>
> has 7 papers you can download about it.

I don't have time to read up on it, but in a music psychology class we
were told that, while listening to Mozart does temporarily increase
certain reasoning abilities, you can get the exact same result by
listening to Metallica! So (according to my prof.) it has nothing to
do with "sublety" or "clarity," and everything to do with being
upbeat. If we listen to perky music, our metabolism increases, and we
think more quickly for a bit.

>> Wikipedia says it's disputed. I believed an article Erv sent
>> me where the authors claimed to successfully repeat a previous
>> result.
>>
>> According to Wikipedia the challengers are Chabris and Steele.
>> Looks like the former did only a meta-analysis, but this
>>
>> http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kms/research/Steele.htm
>>
>> has 7 papers you can download about it.
>
>I don't have time to read up on it, but in a music psychology class we
>were told that, while listening to Mozart does temporarily increase
>certain reasoning abilities, you can get the exact same result by
>listening to Metallica!

If you read my original post, I pointed out the original studies
never said the effect was restricted to Mozart. In fact they
specifically say that any "complex" music will do. Whether Metallica
is complex, I don't know.

>So (according to my prof.) it has nothing to
>do with "sublety" or "clarity," and everything to do with being
>upbeat. If we listen to perky music, our metabolism increases, and we
>think more quickly for a bit.

Maybe he's referring to "enjoyment arousal".

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> Stephen:
> I have experienced firsthand the emotional and intellectual growth
> that music can bring. A few years ago, I only listened to one band
> (not really important, but it was They Might Be Giants) and
couldn't
> understand why anyone would need to listen to anything else. E
sounded
> whiny, Bach was too cold and dead, and Pierre Boulez just sounded
like
> random notes.
>
> My friend gave me a tape of prominent Japanoise artists, all of the
> big names, Boredoms, Merzbow, Ruins. I don't listen to most of
them at
> all regularly anymore, but it was enough of a shock to my system to
> get me thinking, there's a whole lot more to music than quirky pop
> tunes. It opened me up to the idea that I might hate a song one
day,
> and love it the next.
>
> The most respect I can have for a piece is one that "lays its
eggs" in
> my brain, a song that I don't hardly notice when it plays, but
later I
> keep thinking about it. I have felt things listening to Tatania
> Nikolayeva that I have never been able to articulate, and probably
> never will.
>
> It's usually not immediate. It takes a lot of effort to listen to
John
> Butcher or Sachiko M, but I find that the experience is rewarding
in a
> way that can't be described in terms outside of music. It's a realm
> that exists all on its own, outside of theory, outside of concrete
> emotional language. "How are you feeling today?" "Rather
ooooooOOOoo
> bip badada beeboo." "I'm sorry. I hope you feel better tomorrow"
>
> Sometimes I listen to Liquid Tension Experiment, Lateduster or FCS
> North, all progressive rock bands with a sense of play about them,
and
> that can have a repressive, relaxing quality. But just as often I
> listen to Conlon Nancarrow, Milton Babbit, or Otomo Yoshihide
because
> I want something to chew on, to turn over in my head and think "why
> that sound, why there?" keeping in mind that the question is more
> important to me than the answer.
>
> Whenever I'm feeling sad and listless, I watch the same
movie, "Alien
> Nine". It's a brutally violent movie, but also very subtle and
> complex. Sure, it pushes out the thoughts I don't want, the me-
centric
> thoughts, but it also gives me a nearly infinite world of things to
> think about, what each event means within the metaphorical
framework
> of the whole. Like most music, everything is a level of abstraction
> away from the surface. It's not a movie about little girls catching
> aliens any more than the Musical Offering is "about" the
> fully-diminished 7th chord.

TRISTAN

This?

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/movie/pid/5928969/a/Alien+Nine.ht
m

"Based on the manga by Hitoshi Tomizawa, ALIEN NINE follows the
exploits of a precocious sixth grader named Yuri. Attending a school
plagued by frequent alien attacks, Yuri is given the unenviable job
of eliminating the extraterrestrials from the school. Forced to wear
a gross symbiotic alien helmet in order to do the job, Yuri bravely
puts on her game face for the good of the school."

It's been a while since I watched "Once More, With Feeling" .
But I'm a Buffy fan. It's not just about killing vampires.

I actually got the script book here so I could learn the songs
(as if I would put forth the effort). I think "Under Your Spell"
which I did try to learn a while back, is quite nice. Some words
should be changed in my opinion, but what ya gonna do.

You've listed many artists I haven't heard of. Maybe Pandora.com
can pull up some for me.

I believe you mentioned Tatania Nikolayeva before. A link to a
clip would be appreciated if there is one out there.

-Stephen

>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>

Stephen and all,

This is not a general music and arts forum. It is for the purpose of discussing the making of microtonal music. Unless you can pull this topic back to that, please either take the discussions privately, or to metatuning, which was set up for *exactly* this purpose.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but when I don't have a lot of time to read list postings, to have to go through these that don't have anything to do with the intended focus is becoming tedious. I doubt I'm the only one that feels this way, but if I am, I'll just unsub.

Please be courteous and respect the intended subject area for MMM.

Thanks much,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>
wrote:
>
> > Seriously now. I can't see how this is possible by the music
> > alone, except under the rarist circumstances. ("Taps" for
example
> > as I mentioned a while back.) Are you talking about the lyrics
> > of a song? This is what is important to me.
> >
> > Like what is this without the lryics?
>
> You are absolutely correct that most pop music would have no
meaning
> outside of the lyrics. This is exactly the point! You need to
> *begin* to listen to music that does.

++++ Chris

I'm not just talking about pop music.

>
> Listen to any instrumental music that is generally accepted
as "good,"
> and instead of trying to describe how the music makes you feel in
> words, simply absorb it and let it move you without trying to
classify
> or explain it. Try to listen to the music in such a way that you
get
> a glimpse of the mind of the person making it.
>
> I think this concept would be called "mystical" in religious
language.
> I think it's a healthy attitude in either case :)
>
> -Chris
>

++++ Chris

I'm not just talking about pop music.

I mentioned the body/spirit metaphor regarding music and lyrics
previously. Maybe the concept of conscious/subconscious is a
better one.

When one thinks of a individual (symbolic of a piece of music)
we can call up various specific things about this person. Their
name, actions they have taken, etc. This is the conscious part,
the lyrics.

We also have established in our minds the quality of the character
of this person based on these specifics. The end result is a
feeling/belief we have about him. He is trustworthy/not trustworthy.
He is kind/brutal. He is peaceful/aggressive.

Take the song "Happy Birthday" for example. The lyrics are sweet
and simple. The music is too. The music *has* to reflect the
lyrics in this case (and many others).

Another self-evident example is the "Star Spangled Banner".
If someone just becoming a citizen of the U.S. heard this song
without the lyrics for the first time they *might* get a feeling
about the U.S. , but no specifics.

The song "Amazing Grace" without the lyrics would not change
anyone's life.

I guess music minus lyrics, is feeling something without
understanding the reason why. One could say that that is
the whole idea. I liken it to waking up and feeling a certain
way because of a dream, yet not remembering the dream.

-Stephen

I agree with Jon.

- Dave

Jon Szanto wrote:
> Stephen and all,
> > This is not a general music and arts forum. It is for the purpose of discussing the making of microtonal music. Unless you can pull this topic back to that, please either take the discussions privately, or to metatuning, which was set up for *exactly* this purpose.
> > I'm not trying to be a jerk, but when I don't have a lot of time to read list postings, to have to go through these that don't have anything to do with the intended focus is becoming tedious. I doubt I'm the only one that feels this way, but if I am, I'll just unsub.
> > Please be courteous and respect the intended subject area for MMM.
> > Thanks much,
> Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>
wrote:

Jon

If a topic is off-topic I would appreciate one of the moderators
to say:

"Please continue this line of thought in Meta."

If I don't see that I'll assume the conversation will continue
here. As you well know few people go to Meta. The number of
different individuals there this week is:

Stephen
Kraig
Mats
Monz
Jon (yourself)

The action is here, obviously.

So, if I could see the above comments ("Please continue...)
this would tell me and others to go there. Sound reasonable?

-Stephen

--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Stephen and all,
>
> This is not a general music and arts forum. It is for the purpose
of discussing the making of microtonal music. Unless you can pull
this topic back to that, please either take the discussions
privately, or to metatuning, which was set up for *exactly* this
purpose...

Stephen,

{you wrote...}
>If a topic is off-topic I would appreciate one of the moderators to say:
>
>"Please continue this line of thought in Meta."

Members of a list, who share a concern about a good signal-to-noise ratio, will be courteous enough to consider their subject material and see if it is germane to the topic area of the forum. If people behave in good conscience, we don't need a nanny.

>As you well know few people go to Meta.

That is beside the point. If you want to talk about things that don't relate to Making Microtonal Music, then it is up to you to find the appropriate place. It isn't your (in the large sense, not you personally) to take the entire forum in a different direction. You see, that isn't what we formed this group for, we formed it to discuss MMM.

>The action is here, obviously.

I understand you have found some interesting people here. Maybe you could take topics like song lyrics and the like into private conversation with them, or maybe start a different Yahoo group.

And I'm sorry, I won't respond anymore. Just doing *this* is wasting the time and bandwidth of the list...

Jon

stephenszpak escreveu:
> If a topic is off-topic I would appreciate one of the moderators
> to say:
> > "Please continue this line of thought in Meta."
> > If I don't see that I'll assume the conversation will continue
> here. As you well know few people go to Meta. The number of
> different individuals there this week is:

If this is going to continue, please at least remove unnecessary quotes when replaying, and put some text before long quotes, so that readers can know what is the current subject and how the discussion is being conducted. This makes difficult to others to get in or just follow the discussion. For instance, I could not even learn what is the actual subject to know whether it is off-topic or not.

Messages like this one are an example of what _do not do_ in emails:
/makemicromusic/topicId_14190.html#14317

Thanks,
Hudson

--
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> Jon
>
> If a topic is off-topic I would appreciate one of the moderators
> to say:
>
>"Please continue this line of thought in Meta."

It isn't desirable to get to that point. But you did, and they
did in fact say that.

-Carl

On 7/22/06, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Stephen and all,
>
> This is not a general music and arts forum. It is for the purpose of
> discussing the making of microtonal music. Unless you can pull this topic
> back to that, please either take the discussions privately, or to
> metatuning, which was set up for *exactly* this purpose.
>
> I'm not trying to be a jerk, but when I don't have a lot of time to read
> list postings, to have to go through these that don't have anything to do
> with the intended focus is becoming tedious. I doubt I'm the only one that
> feels this way, but if I am, I'll just unsub.
>
> Please be courteous and respect the intended subject area for MMM.
>
> Thanks much,
> Jon
>
>
>

--
"... free speech is meaningless if the commercial cacophony has risen to the
point that no one can hear you." -Naomi Klein

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Stephen,

Been busy and couldn't reply sooner.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" wrote:
[snip]
> +++++ Yahya
>
> I e-mailed Richard some links to Indian music. I have to wait
> for his response.
>
> What I think is neat about popular Indian
> music is that is accepts anything. Much of it uses
> notes of 12 EDO Western music and a few in between. Microtonal.
> Yet useful and modern.
>
> This really seems to be what I've been
> looking for in non-12 as far as listening goes. ...

Good!

> ... Maybe even
> playing, eventually. Not sure. It took me a while to realize
> that I can never make music like this (that is, a number of
> musicians playing) on the spot. One *almost* can with a drum-
> machine going in the backround and spliting the keyboard up,
> I suppose. Still it's not the same.

No, but ... I think it's possible to improve one's musicianship, and
appreciation of the role of one's part, by *trying* to do
everything. If you've never tried to play a violin, you don't
really understand what it is and is not capable of. Same goes for
each instrument. So it's worthwhile learning at least the rudiments
of each of several different instruments, chosen from the different
families.

> Do you have a favorite internet radio site or whatever?

No, sorry, I don't have a lot of time for listening. However, I do
make sure that I listen to most of what the list members share with
us - that way I'm not working in a vacuum ...

> Thanks for the feedback,

My pleasure!

> -Stephen

Regards,
Yahya