Bob Moses editorial

Hi everybody,

Amidst some exaggerations and a pretty thick layer of crankiness, I
think there's plenty to chew on in this letter Bob Moses sent to the
Boston Phoenix regarding an article they ran entitled "Merenda Plays
Mingus":

http://www.amuletrecords.com/bios/moses3.htm

On the surface of it, this may appear to have little to do with
microtonality, but a lot of the larger issues that are brought up here
surely do... I'd be interested to hear any thoughts that any of you
might have regarding these thorny and often contentious issues.

--Dan Stearns

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> Amidst some exaggerations and a pretty thick layer of crankiness, I
> think there's plenty to chew on in this letter Bob Moses sent to the
> Boston Phoenix regarding an article they ran entitled "Merenda Plays
> Mingus":
>
> http://www.amuletrecords.com/bios/moses3.htm
>
> On the surface of it, this may appear to have little to do with
> microtonality, but a lot of the larger issues that are brought up
here
> surely do... I'd be interested to hear any thoughts that any of you
> might have regarding these thorny and often contentious issues.
>
> --Dan Stearns

This article was the inspiration for the post on the tuning list
which inspired you to write, "sometimes I think musicians are the
worst thing for music" . . . Bob Moses is a friend of mine and we've
played on gigs together, so you can understand if I say maybe I let
his article get to me a little too much.

Dan,

{you wrote...}
>On the surface of it, this may appear to have little to do with
>microtonality

Maybe, but I tend to think of this place as "Creating (Microtonal) Music", and while the commonality is the discussion of microtonal items, it is the creation of music that must reign...

>but a lot of the larger issues that are brought up here surely do... I'd >be interested to hear any thoughts that any of you might have regarding >these thorny and often contentious issues.

I would never put myself shoulder-to-shoulder with a deep human that I've admired and been inspired by since the first time I heard him: Bob Moses. One of the most transcendent nights of music I have ever experienced was with Moses playing with Steve Swallow, Steve Kuhn, and Sheila Jordan. He is a deep and passionate non-drummer, and means a lot to me.

So all I can say is that the underlying tenor of his thoughts felt so extraordinarily close to what I've had to talk about the last 6 years regarding the works of Partch. That so many now choose to utilize transcriptions and arrangements, for the simple pleasure of adding a Partch work to their rep, with so little regard (or obvious disdain) for his personal, and idiosyncratic, aesthetic - well, they are free to do so in the literal, but spiritually it is a bankrupt rendition. (I've just had occasion to vent spleen on this issue, as myself along with Danlee Mitchell and a couple of other members of the Partch Ensemble were filmed and interviewed for a BBC documentary on Partch that will air in the spring. We'll have to see what flack I catch from naming names, if it doesn't get cut...).

Thanks for sharing that, Dan - I'm going to pass it along to members of the Harry Partch Foundation as well.

Best,
Jon

Paul,

You know and have worked with Moses? Please, next time you see him, just let him know he gives hope to creative musicians...

Cheers,
Jon

> "sometimes I think visual artists are the
> worst thing for visual art"

> "sometimes I think musicians are the
> worst thing for music" . . .

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Amen

jacky_ligon wrote:

>
> If this art form is going to ever reach many more people in the 12
> tET world of sound, then some seriously beautiful music has got to
> get made.
>
> I like to fancy that perhaps the core of 65 folks we've got assembled
> here may represent some kind of new step in that kind of direction.
>
> JL

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> You know and have worked with Moses? Please, next time you see him,
just
> let him know he gives hope to creative musicians...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

You got it!

Hi Paul,

While I agree with many of the points Moses makes here--namely to
stand on your own two feet and kick butt, I disagree with many others.
I'll try and explain some of this by way of example.

When I was trying to get players for my live bands, I needed players
who could read and get things done on little rehearsal time. I worked
with a lot of very good players who epitomized the Moses standard of
mastering things by immersing yourself in a lot of varied playing
situations. Problem is this tends to breed a career student and if
you're lucky a seasoned pro, and seasoned pros of this nature are
better suited for the pit orchestra and the cruise ship gigs and jazz
with a lowercase j--in short, Moses lite!

It was my experience that I had more guitar students who had a better
grasp of what their strengths were than I had very accomplished
players in my bands. There's a big difference between being able and
capable and playing something because it just has to get out, and this
is where my "sometimes I think musicians are the worst thing for
music" attitude comes from.

I'm interested in the people who've found a unique way to light up
music with their presence. This is what interests me, not so-called
masters or masterful musicians per say.

I also think Moses makes the process of playing jazz sound somewhat
akin to scaling Everest backwards in your underwear while blindfolded!
Being able to play every standard that ever existed in any key at any
tempo is the sort of thing I was referring to when I said there's some
exaggerating going on.

I'll settle for someone who can play one song in one key and surprise
me... give me goosepimples... that's enough for me.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:57 PM
Subject: [MMM] Re: Bob Moses editorial

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > Amidst some exaggerations and a pretty thick layer of crankiness,
I
> > think there's plenty to chew on in this letter Bob Moses sent to
the
> > Boston Phoenix regarding an article they ran entitled "Merenda
Plays
> > Mingus":
> >
> > http://www.amuletrecords.com/bios/moses3.htm
> >
> > On the surface of it, this may appear to have little to do with
> > microtonality, but a lot of the larger issues that are brought up
> here
> > surely do... I'd be interested to hear any thoughts that any of
you
> > might have regarding these thorny and often contentious issues.
> >
> > --Dan Stearns
>
> This article was the inspiration for the post on the tuning list
> which inspired you to write, "sometimes I think musicians are the
> worst thing for music" . . . Bob Moses is a friend of mine and we've
> played on gigs together, so you can understand if I say maybe I let
> his article get to me a little too much.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

Dan,

{you wrote...}
>While I agree with many of the points Moses makes here, [snip] I disagree >with many others.

Yep, same here.

>I'm interested in the people who've found a unique way to light up music >with their presence. This is what interests me, not so-called masters or >masterful musicians per say.

And we all must be careful about linguistics as well: I've always seen Moses use a very 'regal' language speaking of masters and such. It has always seemed to me much more flavored in African roots, where 'master' drummers or singers have the ability and responsibility to pass on the knowledge, as opposed to Western European terminology that would lead to autocratic leaders, like von Karajan.

But there is wisdom to be found in the hands of one who is innocent, and conniving in the hands of the learned.

>I'll settle for someone who can play one song in one key and surprise >me... give me goosepimples... that's enough for me.

Hear here.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_1406.html#1421

There's a big difference between being able and
> capable and playing something because it just has to get out, and
this
> is where my "sometimes I think musicians are the worst thing for
> music" attitude comes from.
>

Hello Dan!

Frankly, I think your statement about "musicians" can get easily
misinterpreted. What, exactly does it mean? Are musicians only
people who read music? Are they people who *don't* read music? Are
they people who read music and play expressively (if that's
possible... :) ) or are they people who *think* they can play music
because they don't read music, but can't really play without it
either... :)

It seems to me it's a little difficult to be a composer of any kind
without being a "musician..." I realize some people disagree with
this statement, but, again, it comes down to definitions.

Was Varese a musician? Well, I guess he conducted. How about
Xenakis? Well, I guess he conducted, too.

Is somebody like Coltrane or Mingus *not* a musician? That might get
into controversial waters...

In short, the whole question of the definition of "musician" needs
to, I believe, be cleared up before any such statement as "musicians
are good, bad, indifferent" to music can be made.

Even a guy in a computer lab doing sound installations could be
a "musician." When La Monte Young plays colliding sine waves in the
room, are his actions that of a "musician?"

Or, is the "musician" just a little guy in top had and tails who
plays umm pah pah marches on New Year's Eve in Vienna. Now *he* I
agree, might not be the best thing for music... unless you like to
drink Champagne... :)

best to you!

Joe Pehrson

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
>In short, the whole question of the definition of "musician" needs
>to, I believe, be cleared up before any such statement as "musicians
>are good, bad, indifferent" to music can be made.

I think you are wrong. I don't think it has to be "cleared up" for Dan to make the statement. It meant something to Dan, I certainly was able to discern the flavor from it, and it isn't a theorem that needs to be proved or delineated. Dan feels 'musicians' have affected music-making negatively; read into it what you will.

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Joe,

What I said was very much a personal opinion based on my experiences,
and no, you're right, it's not very clear... but I didn't really
intend for it to be either!

What I meant was music, as I see it, is very often adversely effected
by musicians. Basically what I was trying to hint at was that
musicians--good musicians--are not necessarily creative people,
interesting sculptors, engaging storytellers, etc.

I don't have a great respect for artisans and technocrats just because
they're artisans and technocrats, that doesn't fill me up. I'm
interested in the creative thinkers, the dreamers, the interesting
sculptors, the engaging storytellers, etc. That's the sort of thing
that I think is good for music.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@...>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: [MMM] where da "musician"

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
>
> /makemicromusic/topicId_1406.html#1421
>
> There's a big difference between being able and
> > capable and playing something because it just has to get out, and
> this
> > is where my "sometimes I think musicians are the worst thing for
> > music" attitude comes from.
> >
>
> Hello Dan!
>
> Frankly, I think your statement about "musicians" can get easily
> misinterpreted. What, exactly does it mean? Are musicians only
> people who read music? Are they people who *don't* read music? Are
> they people who read music and play expressively (if that's
> possible... :) ) or are they people who *think* they can play music
> because they don't read music, but can't really play without it
> either... :)
>
> It seems to me it's a little difficult to be a composer of any kind
> without being a "musician..." I realize some people disagree with
> this statement, but, again, it comes down to definitions.
>
> Was Varese a musician? Well, I guess he conducted. How about
> Xenakis? Well, I guess he conducted, too.
>
> Is somebody like Coltrane or Mingus *not* a musician? That might
get
> into controversial waters...
>
> In short, the whole question of the definition of "musician" needs
> to, I believe, be cleared up before any such statement as "musicians
> are good, bad, indifferent" to music can be made.
>
> Even a guy in a computer lab doing sound installations could be
> a "musician." When La Monte Young plays colliding sine waves in the
> room, are his actions that of a "musician?"
>
> Or, is the "musician" just a little guy in top had and tails who
> plays umm pah pah marches on New Year's Eve in Vienna. Now *he* I
> agree, might not be the best thing for music... unless you like to
> drink Champagne... :)
>
> best to you!
>
> Joe Pehrson
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_1406.html#1533

> Joe,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> >In short, the whole question of the definition of "musician" needs
> >to, I believe, be cleared up before any such statement
as "musicians
> >are good, bad, indifferent" to music can be made.
>
> I think you are wrong. I don't think it has to be "cleared up" for
Dan to
> make the statement. It meant something to Dan, I certainly was able
to
> discern the flavor from it, and it isn't a theorem that needs to be
proved
> or delineated. Dan feels 'musicians' have affected music-making
negatively;
> read into it what you will.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Jon!

Are we headed toward one of our "infamous" brawls again?? (And I
emphasize the "in"...)

No, I just meant it wasn't clear to *me* what he meant, even after
reading the Robert Moses article...

That's OK though. Dan has always said nice things about my music to
people so, as long as he does that, I really don't care *what* else
he says.... :)

By the way... 3M is really getting interesting... I'll have a
further post about the Boulez interview with my acquaintance/friend
Jed Distler when I get a chance...

JP

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_1406.html#1536

> Hi Joe,
>
> What I said was very much a personal opinion based on my
experiences,
> and no, you're right, it's not very clear... but I didn't really
> intend for it to be either!
>
> What I meant was music, as I see it, is very often adversely
effected
> by musicians. Basically what I was trying to hint at was that
> musicians--good musicians--are not necessarily creative people,
> interesting sculptors, engaging storytellers, etc.
>
> I don't have a great respect for artisans and technocrats just
because
> they're artisans and technocrats, that doesn't fill me up. I'm
> interested in the creative thinkers, the dreamers, the interesting
> sculptors, the engaging storytellers, etc. That's the sort of thing
> that I think is good for music.
>
> take care,
>
> --Dan Stearns
>

Hi Dan...

Thanks for the elaboration. Got it (finally!)

Well, in *that* case I would agree with you. Personally, I would
phrase it, "I have no respect for 'dead-head' "performing
musicians..." but that's me, and maybe you want it more general...

Chacun a son gout!

JP

P.S. That is no reflection on the *true* American "dead heads..." a
far different and more creative phenominon...

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>Are we headed toward one of our "infamous" brawls again?? (And I >emphasize the "in"...)

Nope! I'm living a clean life now! :) Besides, if I had wanted to pick a fight, it would have been over your comment about micro music finally advancing when "real composers" come over to the camp...

>No, I just meant it wasn't clear to *me* what he meant, even after reading >the Robert Moses article...

Yes, grey areas are murky.

>By the way... 3M is really getting interesting... I'll have a further >post about the Boulez interview with my acquaintance/friend Jed Distler >when I get a chance...

Thanks, glad there is good dialogue. Keep in mind that particular topic got posted pretty heavily, and use good judgement if we're veering too far off course.

Last question: who was the composer, maybe from Yale, named Martin something? He had an 'opera' or song cycle I wanted to order, and I can't remember his last name, and I know you were the one that mentioned him. TIA...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_1406.html#1539

>
> Last question: who was the composer, maybe from Yale, named Martin
> something? He had an 'opera' or song cycle I wanted to order, and I
can't
> remember his last name, and I know you were the one that mentioned
him. TIA...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Hi Jon...

Martin Bresnick... formerly the head of the composition department at
Yale, now on leave.

He got a $500,000 McArthur "genius" grant that stipulates that a
person can't have a "day job" (like teaching or whatever) but must
devote full time to composition. Pity, no?

Anyway, he had to leave the Yale faculty to do this, but will return
after a while. BTW... he's a really nice guy, and more interested in
his *student's* careers than his own (a dedicated teacher) which is
one reason he isn't better known.

But the "Bang on a Canners" love him, and, in fact, cite him as their
spiritual mentor...

That's the jazz..

JP

P.S. Only *one* post on Boulez coming... I realize that got a bit out
of hand...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_1406.html#1539

> Joe,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Are we headed toward one of our "infamous" brawls again?? (And I
> >emphasize the "in"...)
>
> Nope! I'm living a clean life now! :) Besides, if I had wanted to
pick a
> fight, it would have been over your comment about micro music
finally
> advancing when "real composers" come over to the camp...
>

Heh.... Humble little 'ol *ME* said that... ?? Fortunately, I can't
remember it...

Actually, over the Holiday, one night I had a dream and I was
surrounded by the most amazing music, and I saw the instruments, and
they were wood... in fact, they were Harry Partch's...

And, to make the music wonderful, it *had* to have the theatre and
the visuals...

I don't know what's happening to me... :) Bad, bad...

JP

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>Martin Bresnick... formerly the head of the composition department at >Yale, now on leave.

Yesyesyes. That's the guy.

>He got a $500,000 McArthur "genius" grant that stipulates that a person >can't have a "day job" (like teaching or whatever) but must devote full >time to composition. Pity, no?

Yep. I just got a $5.00 "Moron" grant that stipulates I can collect if I can adequately install the midi drivers on my 2nd computer and then install Scala and FTS. Then I get the dough and I can finally commence making music...

>But the "Bang on a Canners" love him, and, in fact, cite him as their >spiritual mentor...

It is always great when a teacher has that kind of influence; bassist Bert Turetzky is like this...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
According to http://www.ascap.com/playback/1998/march/bresnick.html
the award was not the MacArthur award.

"American Academy of Arts and Letters... notified Bresnick that he
had just been named the winner of an unprecedented award in music
composition, the Charles Ives Living, a $225,000 prize that would be
given in three annual installments of $75,000. The only catch was
that Bresnick would have to give up his day job for three years and
devote himself completely to writing music."

Nice.

Prent Rodgers
Mercer Island, WA
Sun Break!

> >He got a $500,000 McArthur "genius" grant that stipulates that a
person
> >can't have a "day job" (like teaching or whatever) but must devote
full
> >time to composition. Pity, no?
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "prentrodgers" <prentrodgers@a...> wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_1406.html#1543

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
> According to http://www.ascap.com/playback/1998/march/bresnick.html
> the award was not the MacArthur award.
>
> "American Academy of Arts and Letters... notified Bresnick that he
> had just been named the winner of an unprecedented award in music
> composition, the Charles Ives Living, a $225,000 prize that would
be
> given in three annual installments of $75,000. The only catch was
> that Bresnick would have to give up his day job for three years and
> devote himself completely to writing music."
>
> Nice.
>
> Prent Rodgers
> Mercer Island, WA
> Sun Break!
>
>

Sorry. My mistake. Thanks Prent. The "Charles Ives Living" is, I
believe, a "newer" grant. Half as much.

My guess is that Charles Ives could have "lived" on that quite well
himself, although I guess in the currency of former times he probably
did even *better* than that... :)

JP

i've read in a few places brian eno saying he doesn't consider himself
a "musician", and i just read yesterday that erik satie said the same
thing. i myself feel that musician is not the most appropriate word
to describe myself. the word to me conjures up images of performers,
and i'm more an architect of sound and have little faith in my performance
skills.

varese, supposedly, said he didn't even compose *music* -- preferring
the term "organized sound".

its all just semantics in the end...

--
. . . p f l y . . .
http://www.neuron.net/~pfly/duckapus.html
...the debut pfly CD...