Pronuncable pitch names

Hi,

For meantone and schismic tunings, there's a nice pitch naming scheme where sharps and flats are indicated by adding "is" and "es". For example, C# is pronunced "cis" and Fb is pronunced "fes". Has anyone proposed a similar system for prouncing commas like 81/80, 64/63 and 33/32? It might be nice to be able to pronunce JI pitches in a short/natural and musically meaningful way. For example G#- "G sharp minus"/"twenty-five sixteen" might be nicer and shorter to pronunce as "gisem". (I just made up "em" to mean 80/81 in this example.)

Before I go on and invent my own system, does such a system exist already?

-Magnus

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Magnus Jonsson wrote:

> For example G#- "G sharp minus"/"twenty-five sixteen" might be nicer and > shorter to pronunce as "gisem". (I just made up "em" to mean 80/81 in > this example.)
>
> Before I go on and invent my own system, does such a system exist
> already?

Hi Magnus - sounds good, but before you go on and invent your own system, you might want to check for preexisting distracting meanings of the resulting pitch names - "gisem" is a bit problematic in that regard!!

:-) Jon Wild

> > Before I go on and invent my own system, does such a system exist
> > already?

Lilypond uses -is and -es for sharps and flats like you said; or
quarter-tones is uses -ih and -eh. I don't know if it's something
they come up with or if it's a convention... but I think the H is just
for "half," which isn't too meaningful in JI.

Chris

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>
wrote:
> Magnus

I don't think I do anything you do. But in 24, in any version
where you have two interlaced 12 EDO scales, you could do something
like I do. At the bottom of the page you could have a footnote
saying that the second 12 EDO scale (with the 'new' notes) is
skewed left (or right) by so many cents, 30 cents, whatever.
I dont notate anything, but I do think when I play, to the extent
of giving the chords names, Cx minor etc. ((The note of
Cx is the note above the C note,but below the C#))

Ivan Vyshnegradski had his quartonetone symbols, also Haba,
Couper, Penderecki, Carrillo (taken from Manual of Quartertone
Harmony {so if it's wrong don't blame me} )

They had their symbols
for displaying the semiflat, sesquiflat,
semisharp, and sesquisharp. I would think that doing something
that is not a multiple of 12 in some way would call for a
different approach.

/makemicromusic/topicId_13540.html#13616

(click on 'Reply' button)

-Stephen

> Hi,
>
> For meantone and schismic tunings, there's a nice pitch naming
scheme
> where sharps and flats are indicated by adding "is" and "es". For
example,
> C# is pronunced "cis" and Fb is pronunced "fes". Has anyone
proposed a
> similar system for prouncing commas like 81/80, 64/63 and 33/32?
It might
> be nice to be able to pronunce JI pitches in a short/natural and
musically
> meaningful way. For example G#- "G sharp minus"/"twenty-five
sixteen"
> might be nicer and shorter to pronunce as "gisem". (I just made
up "em" to
> mean 80/81 in this example.)
>
> Before I go on and invent my own system, does such a system exist
> already?
>
> -Magnus
>

I googled for "gisem" just now and I couldn't find what problematic meaning it has. What does it mean?

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Jon Wild wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>
>> For example G#- "G sharp minus"/"twenty-five sixteen" might be nicer and
>> shorter to pronunce as "gisem". (I just made up "em" to mean 80/81 in
>> this example.)
>>
>> Before I go on and invent my own system, does such a system exist
>> already?
>
> Hi Magnus - sounds good, but before you go on and invent your own system,
> you might want to check for preexisting distracting meanings of the
> resulting pitch names - "gisem" is a bit problematic in that regard!!
>
> :-) Jon Wild
>

Thanks Chris,

-ih and -eh could mean 33/32 and 32/33 respectively.

This leaves only the 81/80 and the 64/63 which still need names. The general pattern of "i" meaning upwards and "e" meaning downwards seems worth to keep.

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, c.m.bryan wrote:

>> > Before I go on and invent my own system, does such a system exist
>> > already?
>
> Lilypond uses -is and -es for sharps and flats like you said; or
> quarter-tones is uses -ih and -eh. I don't know if it's something
> they come up with or if it's a convention... but I think the H is just
> for "half," which isn't too meaningful in JI.
>
> Chris
>

Hi all,

--- In MakeMicroMusic, Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> For meantone and schismic tunings, there's a nice pitch
> naming scheme where sharps and flats are indicated by
> adding "is" and "es". For example, C# is pronunced "cis"
> and Fb is pronunced "fes". Has anyone proposed a similar
> system for prouncing commas like 81/80, 64/63 and 33/32?
> It might be nice to be able to pronunce JI pitches in a
> short/natural and musically meaningful way. For example
> G#- "G sharp minus"/"twenty-five sixteen" might be nicer
> and shorter to pronunce as "gisem". (I just made up "em"
> to mean 80/81 in this example.)
>
> Before I go on and invent my own system, does such a
> system exist already?

Jon Wild replied:

> Hi Magnus - sounds good, but before you go on and invent
> your own system, you might want to check for preexisting
> distracting meanings of the resulting pitch names -
> "gisem" is a bit problematic in that regard!! :)

Chris M Bryan replied:
> Lilypond uses -is and -es for sharps and flats like you
> said; or quarter-tones is uses -ih and -eh. I don't know
> if it's something they come up with or if it's a
> convention... but I think the H is just for "half," which
> isn't too meaningful in JI.

Magnus, I don't know what other systems may exist,
but it's worth at least a quick google to find out.
Apart from that, if you do invent your own, may I
make a couple of simple suggestions:
1) extend the existing "nominal + is/es";
2) make single syllable note-names.

For example, suppose you're indicating only the
comma 81/10, sharps and flats. You could use the
vowel "o" to mean "raise by a comma" and the vowel
"a" to mean "lower by a comma". You would combine
these vowels with the standard endings es/is to
make diphthongs, such as "oe" and "ai" rather than
disyllables; these are easier to fit to single
notes, particularly in speed. This would give note
names like (ascending):
Faes, Fes, Foes, Fa, Fais, Fis, Fois

Please note that these are not *English* diphthongs,
rather, we'd need to give each vowel its Italian or
Latin sound, approximately.

As the example Chris gave suggests, you could
change the final consonant of the syllable from "s"
to something suggestive of another alteration.
"h" is a poor choice, since it's hard to distinguish
"Fa" from "Fah", os let's use "q" for "quartertone".
You might even combine them, so using s for semitone
and q for quartertone, you'd have "sq" for "a
semitone and a quatertone", ie three-quarters of a
tone. Ignoring commas for the moment, notes near
Fa (ascending) could be:
Fesq, Fes, Feq, Fa, Fiq, Fis, Fisq

(Note how cleverly I avoided another unwanted
meaning! Nah, that was just good luck.)

You could further modify these names by commas,
eg:
Faesq, Fesq, Foesq, Faes, Fes, Foes, Faeq, Feq,
Foeq, ...

As Chris says, quartertones aren't too meaningful
in JI, but there are plenty of JI intervals that
are near to the 24th root of 2, and for which
quartertone may be a convenient name in practice.

Let us know what you come up with!

Regards,
Yahya

Magnus,

{you wrote...}
>I googled for "gisem" just now and I couldn't find what problematic
>meaning it has. What does it mean?

Aargh... Remove the "e" and think the "hair gel" scene in "Something About Mary". Failing that, think about the male role in procreation.

:)

Cheers,
Jon

I see the point. But I don't think it's worth it to ditch a good idea just because of some bad word. Especially since I don't see why English should be favored over any other language.

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, Jon Szanto wrote:

> Magnus,
>
> {you wrote...}
>> I googled for "gisem" just now and I couldn't find what problematic
>> meaning it has. What does it mean?
>
> Aargh... Remove the "e" and think the "hair gel" scene in "Something About Mary". Failing that, think about the male role in procreation.
>
> :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>

Magnus,

{you wrote...}
>I see the point. But I don't think it's worth it to ditch a good idea just
>because of some bad word. Especially since I don't see why English should
>be favored over any other language.

At least from my standpoint, this was all in good fun. Use whatever words/syllables you deem necessary.

Cheers,
Jon