Re: [MMM] Re: New composition -- Invocatio (MIDI)

> From: mschulter <MSCHULTER@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 8:41 PM
> Subject: [MMM] Re: New composition -- Invocatio (MIDI)
>
>
> From your posts on the Colonna example, Monz, I wonder if your
> software could check the "justness" of sonorities in a MIDI file
> easily?

My methods so far are still not that sophisticated.

I put the values into an Excel spreadsheet, and graph
the results in pitch-height, and on a Monzo lattice
if possible (i.e., if I can find a way to write the
intervals as exponents of prime-factors).

If the scale can be described rationally within the current
limitations of my JustMusic software (13-prime-limit,
and an exponent limit of around +/- 7), then it can
be mapped to the computer keyboard and played, to record
MIDI-files.

So are you asking me to analyze the pitches in your
_Invocatio_? OK... hopefully will be able to post
it sometime Saturday.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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> From: John A. deLaubenfels <jdl@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 11:26 AM
> Subject: [MMM] Re: New composition -- Invocatio (MIDI)
>
>
> I'm busted, Margo; I missed the details in your post 143. That larger
> number explains my reaction for sure! It's strongest, to my ear, in the
> transition between measures 20 and 21 (around 26 seconds in the
> sequence). Here, C*5 falls to C'5, and E*4 falls to E'4, very
> noticeable and something I need to get used to. Again, as the piece
> concludes, between measures 25 and 27 E*4 falls to E'4, and I hear that
> as a bit of a "strained" sound (to my unaccustomed ear).
>
> > This can be startling to listeners in the 16th century or 21st
> > century, definitely "xenharmonic," and something that got Vicentino
> > very mixed reviews.
>
> Har! Those were hot times in Old Italy, no? I'm reluctant to side
> against Vicentino, however, at least without giving my ear a chance to
> get used to the effect.
>
>
> /makemicromusic/files/JdL/
>
> Then download your choice(s):
>
> invoc4a.mid Margo's Invocatio in Margo's own tuning
> invoc4a12.mid Margo's Invocatio in 12-tET
> invoc4aer3.mid Margo's Invocatio in JdL's 5-limit adaptive tuning

Hi John,

As always, I like your adaptive-JI retuning of this piece.
However, I'm one of those people who aren't bothered by
commatic (and other) shifts, and the first time I heard
Margo's piece in *her* tuning, that diesis-shift section
at m. 20-21 jumped right out and grabbed me by the ears!
I *love* it!!

So, the moral... give your ears a chance, they might
surprise your brain.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi

Like Monz it takes a lot to really sound sour to my ears, and the
first time I played Margo's piece on this computer with a
SoundBlaster Live card it sounded gorgeous and alive. However I
played it the other day for a classically trained tenor and he
visibly winced when those "dieses" were played. I would have passed
it off to musical habits except that he is someone who has been
listening to my music for a while and is quite enthusiastic about it.

Anyway we went into the studio and I started playing the same file
through a K2500 orchestral card. It sounded much better to my
friend, even with the trumpets. It sounded a lot better to him when
we fiddled with the instrument used, with cello, frenchhorn and flute
working well for his ears.

Anyway my conclusions (just as a starting point for discussion). The
sound card playing back the midi file really does make a difference.
Although Soundblaster is supposed to have a resolution of 1 cent it
doesn't sound nearly as full and rich and detailed (obviously) as the
K2500 which also has a resolution of 1 cent but is 24 bit. In
particular I am thinking of Pauls comment about beating and wondering
how much that had to do with his soundcard. This is also an argument
for printing your midi files to audio because you have much more
control over what the listener hears.

Changing the timbre made a big difference in the way those dieses
were perceived.

Some people just do not like trumpets

I wonder if "hearing" is contagious. I know this sounds crazy (wrong
list?) but being in a room with somebody who winces made it seem more
painful to me than I recalled.

Anyway these are some observations and hopefully this will stimulate
others. Its always fascinating to see how differently a sound can be
perceived.

Mary

Mary,

I've always been amazed that people will compose music and then not
give a second thought to the end-producer of that music -- be it
orchestration, sound source, what-have-you.

It makes a *huge* difference on how a piece will affect someone, just
as we mentioned a day or so ago about the critical nature of proper
recording/mixing. The other point: even if someone has a decent sound
card in their computer, how many of these people have a proper sound
reproduction system (speakers, amps, etc) set-up for playing it back?
Usually it's the dinky, cheap speakers that came with the computer,
or for free with a Whopper or something.

Caring for music means caring for it at every juncture, from genesis
to final performance/reproduction.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I've always been amazed that people will compose music and then not
> give a second thought to the end-producer of that music -- be it
> orchestration, sound source, what-have-you.
>
I don't mean my comments to discourage anyone from sharing midi
files. Being able to hear what Margo is talking about has made a
world of difference in my interest in what she is talking about and I
certainly want to keep hearing them. If anything it was just a
comment that when we are using the files for listening tests we may
be reading too much into the results....

And good speakers properly placed make a world of difference in audio
quality.

Recently I bought myself a pair of Grado earphones for listening on a
laptop. They cost abaout 70 dollars and seem excellent to my ear, at
least in listening to my own files they capture a lot of high end
detail.

Just more suggestions from this gear slut :-)

Mary

Mary,

{you wrote...}
>I don't mean my comments to discourage anyone from sharing midi files. >Being able to hear what Margo is talking about has made a world of >difference in my interest in what she is talking about and I certainly >want to keep hearing them.

I second that, and in retrospect, I hope what I said also reflects your above stance. All we need be is *aware* of the limitations, and we can then certainly adjust. So keep the midi coming, maybe we'll just have to experiment with each listner a bit...

>Recently I bought myself a pair of Grado earphones for listening on a >laptop. They cost abaout 70 dollars and seem excellent to my ear

Let me guess: Grado SR60's! They are one of the hands-down best investments a musician can buy, especially since they got rid of the old style foam pads. Now they are comfortable, and you can hear things in recordings you've never heard before. And you're right: they are great for items like laptops.

>Just more suggestions from this gear slut :-)

Ooooh, dump your mate and let's cruise the Southwest together! <g>

Cheers,
Jon

Mr. Dan,

{you wrote...}
>I'd like to use your last bit "about the critical nature of proper
>recording/mixing" as a springboard to voice some of my own views which
>are probably just be a slight augmentation of the same thing anyway...
>
>I don't know about anyone else, but I'm much more of a sucker for
>imaginative and experimentally driven recording and mixing (et al.) as
>opposed to the proper, the professional, or even the "good" per say.

Just to clarify, by "proper" in that context I simply meant *paying attention to the sound you are getting* -- and that can be anything, wildly creative, as long as you are listening to it and making it a critical part of the experience.

"Proper" is for butlers.

Cheers,
Jon

>
> >I don't know about anyone else, but I'm much more of a sucker for
> >imaginative and experimentally driven recording and mixing (et al.)
> as
> >opposed to the proper, the professional, or even the "good" per say.

Me too. I even prefer some "badly" recorded things over today's "good"
recordings... I can't get into compressing sounds to make everything
have it's own place. I sort of like the bleed of instuments into each
other, like on early rock-n-roll records where everything was in the
same room. But then again, a highly processed "ball of sound" like
Smashing Pumpkins can be interesting too.

I think that right now, a lot of people listen to music in their cars,
so I usually record with that listening space in mind: speakers pointed
at your knees, surrounded by weird expanses of curved glass, maybe one
windo open, people honking at you as you plow into road cones, etc... If
it doesn't sound good to me in the car, I figure that the average person
won't hear it correctly. This is not to say that having nice speakers
won'r bring out more detail in my music, but I try to create something
that listening in a car won't be such a horrid experience that grinds it
in: YOU HAVE CRAPPY CAR SPEAKERS AND NO DECENT STEREO, YOU WORTHLESS
BUM!

I am curious, also-- what does everyone else use for "average joe"
monitors?

DaveX

<snip>
> I think that right now, a lot of people listen to music in their
> cars, so I usually record with that listening space in mind:
> speakers pointed at your knees, surrounded by weird expanses of
> curved glass, maybe one windo open, people honking at you as you
> plow into road cones, etc... If it doesn't sound good to me in the
> car, I figure that the average person
> won't hear it correctly. This is not to say that having nice
> speakers won'r bring out more detail in my music, but I try to >
> create something that listening in a car won't be such a horrid >
> experience that grinds it in: YOU HAVE CRAPPY CAR SPEAKERS AND NO
> DECENT STEREO, YOU WORTHLESS BUM!
>
> I am curious, also-- what does everyone else use for "average joe"
> monitors?
>
> DaveX

I recall reading the Frank Zappa mixed some of his music throught
crappy car speakers so that it would sound its best in that setting.
No idea if the mixdown was actually in a '57 Chevy. I use a pair of
Avid 3 ways with 10" woofers and a pair of Altec satellite speakers
for my computer setup. I get pretty good sound. I found the Avids in a
trash bin in Boulder and I stole the Altecs. The only weak link is a
cheap little optimus amp driving the whole thing.

I heartily recommend scouring garage sales for stereo systems to hook
up as your computer sound system. It is a cheap way to get good sound.

John Starrett

Ooooh, dump your mate and let's cruise the Southwest together! <g>

Naahhh. I feel very lucky to have found the partner I have 'cuz I
know I'm weird.

You know when you have found someone for life when they love your
music, and you love theirs.

Mary

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:

/makemicromusic/topicId_124.html#196

> Hi
>
>
> Like Monz it takes a lot to really sound sour to my ears, and the
> first time I played Margo's piece on this computer with a
> SoundBlaster Live card it sounded gorgeous and alive. However I
> played it the other day for a classically trained tenor and he
> visibly winced when those "dieses" were played. I would have
passed
> it off to musical habits except that he is someone who has been
> listening to my music for a while and is quite enthusiastic about
it.
>
> Anyway we went into the studio and I started playing the same file
> through a K2500 orchestral card. It sounded much better to my
> friend, even with the trumpets. It sounded a lot better to him
when
> we fiddled with the instrument used, with cello, frenchhorn and
flute
> working well for his ears.
>
> Anyway my conclusions (just as a starting point for discussion).
The
> sound card playing back the midi file really does make a
difference.
> Although Soundblaster is supposed to have a resolution of 1 cent it
> doesn't sound nearly as full and rich and detailed (obviously) as
the
> K2500 which also has a resolution of 1 cent but is 24 bit. In
> particular I am thinking of Pauls comment about beating and
wondering
> how much that had to do with his soundcard. This is also an
argument
> for printing your midi files to audio because you have much more
> control over what the listener hears.
>
> Changing the timbre made a big difference in the way those dieses
> were perceived.
>
> Some people just do not like trumpets
>
> I wonder if "hearing" is contagious. I know this sounds crazy
(wrong
> list?) but being in a room with somebody who winces made it seem
more
> painful to me than I recalled.
>
> Anyway these are some observations and hopefully this will
stimulate
> others. Its always fascinating to see how differently a sound can
be
> perceived.
>
> Mary

This is a very interesting and *practical* topic. Rather recently,
someone sent me a CD of a terrific new post-modern rock-art band.

I couldn't even listen to it.

The violinist was 'way out of tune (and not in the good way like
John Starrett)

Terrible.

One would think that, since I am so interested in xenharmonics of
late, I could accept that.

Au contraire. I'm even *more* critical of poor intonation than I
used to be....

Of course, the surrounding "texture" was all in 12-tET and the
electric violinist couldn't play it... so it was incredibly painful.

It ruined the CD for me.

On the other hand, my VIOLAHEXY for viola and electronics really
*doesn*t* sound that "out of tune" to me... but, of course, the
electronics are synched intonationally with the viola...

and the *context* makes all the difference!

__________ __________ ____
Joseph Pehrson