Genres

I agree that marketing has a lot to do with the differences in supposed genres; and of course, at times there are definitely stylistic differences in music, but it is a deep subject for sure. One interesting thing I read recently, in a great book called "Escaping the Delta," by Elijah Wald, involved the famous Alan Lomax visit to the South to document music for the Library of Congress. He met Muddy Waters about 1941, and of course recorded some of his music. And, and as we all know, Muddy was one of the titans of blues...but, in the form he had to fill out for Lomax, he listed his singing repertoire, and it included 7 Gene Autry songs, and a number of other tunes that were considered "pop" at the time, not blues at all. But, there were never any Western albums recorded by Muddy, and that's a shame, cause I would have loved to have heard him sing cowboy songs. Because of his race, and the way black musicians were marketed then, Muddy was a "bluesman," and that was that.
The main thrust of this book focuses on how a lot of our perceptions of just what a blues artist was is not totally correct, and how a lot of these misperceptions started in the 1960's, when musicians like Eric Clapton romanticized guys like Robert Johnson as sort of primitive geniuses, the ragged bluesman walking down a dusty road with his guitar over his back. But, Johnson's only known picture shows him in a sharp 3 piece suit, with fedora, and it was well known that he could play and sing just about anything, from pop standards to country tunes. And the same goes for a lot of "bluesmen" (and women); they were much more versatile as performers than is generally thought, and they had to be, because their audiences were listening to all sorts of music, and would want to hear their favorite tunes at a show/dance (and most performances in those days were dances...listen to Johnson's constant beat on the low strings of his guitar).
Wald interviewed one old black performer (in his 90's, with a new wife), and the guy told him he used to sing a certain song in Mandarin Chinese, as well as play all the big hits of the day. The book is full of anecdotes like this, and is a real eye opener. Bobby Bland said he loved country music, and sang a lot of the songs, but he knew the racial climate wasn't right for him to make it in that field. And of course, Ray Charles could sing/play just about any style of American music there was (and he invented some, too). But, when Ray did his country thing, he remolded the tunes into his own style, and was not really a part of the "country" scene...Charley pride was the only black person I'm aware of that made it in country.
Genres can be very destructive to real artists, as they are forced to stay in a box not of their own making. The placing of black artists into the blues genre, even if they could do much more, as a lot of them could, is a great example of a genre being forced onto the market in a somewhat artificial way, in this case because of race. It's too bad, I'll bet Muddy could sing the shit out of cowboy songs...HHH

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick"
<microstick@m...> wrote:

Neil

Very interesting post.

Of course for every plus there is a minus. (or minus there is
a plus as in this case). Many artists forced into a genre do
great there. The public sees them in a certain way and loves
that illusion. The same holds true in movies (which are illusions
to begin with). Think about some very likeable actor today that
begins to appear in movie roles as a psychopath. The fans
(that is fanatics) of this actor would be outraged. Yet each
role he had, the good-guy ones or bad-guy ones,were all just
make believe anyway.

Take any artist you mentioned and image them getting
away with singing this. (see link)

I believe Carl said I can't post the lyrics here because of
copyright concerns. Anyway image them singing this song with
the execption of paragraph 1 and the second to last paragraph.

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/waitresses-know-what-boys-like-
lyrics.html

Stephen Szpak

"""Genres can be very destructive to real artists, as they are
forced to
stay in a box not of their own making. The placing of black artists
into the
blues genre, even if they could do much more, as a lot of them
could, is a
great example of a genre being forced onto the market in a somewhat
artificial way, in this case because of race. It's too bad, I'll bet
Muddy
could sing the shit out of cowboy songs...HHH"""

> I believe Carl said I can't post the lyrics here because of
> copyright concerns.

Wasn't me...

-Carl

At 08:04 AM 12/17/2005, you wrote:
> I agree that marketing has a lot to do with the differences in supposed
>genres; and of course, at times there are definitely stylistic differences
>in music, but it is a deep subject for sure. One interesting thing I read
>recently, in a great book called "Escaping the Delta," by Elijah Wald,
>involved the famous Alan Lomax visit to the South to document music for the
>Library of Congress.

I have some of those recordings. Simply amazing.

>Because of his race, and the way black musicians were marketed then,
>Muddy was a "bluesman," and that was that.

Interesting. If it's effecting Lomax on a call for the Library
of Congress, it must serious mojo!

>But, Johnson's only known picture shows him in a sharp 3 piece suit,
>with fedora, and it was well known that he could play and sing just
>about anything, from pop standards to country tunes.

Interesting.

It's funny how the blues got recycled through England and back
to America. No conquering required there.

> Wald interviewed one old black performer (in his 90's, with a new wife),
>and the guy told him he used to sing a certain song in Mandarin Chinese, as
>well as play all the big hits of the day. The book is full of anecdotes like
>this, and is a real eye opener. Bobby Bland said he loved country music, and
>sang a lot of the songs, but he knew the racial climate wasn't right for him
>to make it in that field. And of course, Ray Charles could sing/play just
>about any style of American music there was (and he invented some, too).
>But, when Ray did his country thing, he remolded the tunes into his own
>style, and was not really a part of the "country" scene...Charley pride was
>the only black person I'm aware of that made it in country.

Ray is certainly exceptional. That country record is amazing.
For a long time, I don't think it was available on CD in its
original form, Ray's catalog being swamped with 'best of' stuff.
But I'm pleased to see

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000032B4/

> Genres can be very destructive to real artists, as they are forced to
>stay in a box not of their own making. The placing of black artists into
>the blues genre, even if they could do much more, as a lot of them could,
>is a great example of a genre being forced onto the market in a somewhat
>artificial way, in this case because of race. It's too bad, I'll bet Muddy
>could sing the shit out of cowboy songs...HHH

I wonder if any recordings of that exist in some attic somewhere...

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
Sorry Carl

It was Kraig Grady:

/makemicromusic/topicId_10973.html#11243

> > I believe Carl said I can't post the lyrics here because of
> > copyright concerns.
>
> Wasn't me...
>
> -Carl
>

this isn't a web site

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >
> Sorry Carl
>
> It was Kraig Grady:
>
>/makemicromusic/topicId_10973.html#11243
>
>
> >
>>>I believe Carl said I can't post the lyrics here because of
>>>copyright concerns.
>>> >>>
>>Wasn't me...
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

#11243 mentions www.lyricsdownload.com.
I go there sometimes. A link to it at #11243
takes you to lyricis that I assume are copyrighted.

Maybe I'm missing your thoughts here???

Stephen
>
> this isn't a web site
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
>
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sorry Carl
> >
> > It was Kraig Grady:
> >
> >/makemicromusic/topicId_10973.html#11243
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>>I believe Carl said I can't post the lyrics here because of
> >>>copyright concerns.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Wasn't me...
> >>
> >>-Carl
> >>
>

i have no thoughts on this at all.
just forwarded a news report

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
>
> #11243 mentions www.lyricsdownload.com.
> I go there sometimes. A link to it at #11243
> takes you to lyricis that I assume are copyrighted.
>
> Maybe I'm missing your thoughts here???
>
> Stephen > >
>>this isn't a web site
>>
>>stephenszpak wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> >>> >>>
>wrote:
> >
>>> >>>
>>> Sorry Carl
>>>
>>> It was Kraig Grady:
>>>
>>>/makemicromusic/topicId_10973.html#11243
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>>I believe Carl said I can't post the lyrics here because of
>>>>>copyright concerns.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>Wasn't me...
>>>>
>>>>-Carl
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles