Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic A Real Future

On 12/3/05, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> I was just thinking lately about what tuning (not tunings)
> has a real future in the West. I don't know what is going
> on in the big name music colleges. My gut tells me that
> a extention of 12 EDO (24 EDO or some 24 note scale)
> would become a standard someday.
>
> 24 is playable (at least on a keyboard, which is what I'm
> familiar with)
> 24 (assuming it contains all the 12 notes of 12 EDO) is totally
> upward compatible with current music.
>
> Would a 24 note scale be the *best* tuning? No. Does that
> really matter? I don't believe so. (Just a uneducated opinion.)
>
> Stephen Szpak

I've so far only seen two schools of thought on this, though I am by
no means an expert: there are people who stick with 12= until the day
they die, and there are people who use whichever tuning they feel like
at the time, be it their own personal tuning or the tuning du jour.

I think 12= is so entrenched that the mainstream may never abandon it,
and for anyone who steps outside of it, there are just too many
choices for it to settle down into another standard. I wouldn't want
that to happen, anyway. Just look what happened to the M3, that poor
bastard, all because tuning was standardized to a system that couldn't
support it. When you pick any standard, something has to be
sacrificed, be it 5/4 or 13/8

--
~Tristan Parker
http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
-- Terry Riley

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:
>
> >
Tristan

I agree with most or all of what you wrote.
Not familiar with M3 but I think I know what
you said about it.

There are *many* choices outside of 12 EDO but not
as many... if two things are accepted as absolutes:

1) scale must have a reasonable number of notes,
(so that it is physically playable)
2) scale must contain all 12 EDO notes

Sacrifice (that is accecpting things that are
unpleasant, that you also can not change) is part
of life.

Thanks for replying,

Stephen Szpak

> I've so far only seen two schools of thought on this, though I am
by
> no means an expert: there are people who stick with 12= until the
day
> they die, and there are people who use whichever tuning they feel
like
> at the time, be it their own personal tuning or the tuning du jour.
>
> I think 12= is so entrenched that the mainstream may never abandon
it,
> and for anyone who steps outside of it, there are just too many
> choices for it to settle down into another standard. I wouldn't
want
> that to happen, anyway. Just look what happened to the M3, that
poor
> bastard, all because tuning was standardized to a system that
couldn't
> support it. When you pick any standard, something has to be
> sacrificed, be it 5/4 or 13/8
>
> --
> ~Tristan Parker
> http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
> "Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
> -- Terry Riley
>

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> I agree with most or all of what you wrote.
> Not familiar with M3 but I think I know what
> you said about it.

I think he meant the Major Third, severly compromised in 12=.

> There are *many* choices outside of 12 EDO but not
> as many... if two things are accepted as absolutes:
>
> 1) scale must have a reasonable number of notes,
> (so that it is physically playable)

Aren't there still literally *thousands* of potential tunings in that range?

> 2) scale must contain all 12 EDO notes

If you mean the 12edo pitches *exactly*, then that is extremely
limited. But there are many more scales that, while not imitating the
exact cent values, imitate the same functions. 19 and 31edo come to
mind. Would you exclude them? I wouldn't. :) I think they've been
the most hyped as "the next big thing."

That being said... my attraction to the microtonal scene is precisely
that it moves the issue of tuning from the realm of the monolithic
standard and into the realm of choice: the tuning becomes something
special and specific to the individual work. So, IMO, "the next big
thing" shouldn't be a specific tuning, but rather an adoption of a
flexible language (whether cent values or ratios or whatever) that
allows that choice to exist.

IMO :)

-Chris B.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan
<chrismbryan@g...> wrote:
>
> > >
> I think he meant the Major Third, severly compromised in 12=.

*****************************************************
If I did it right I listened to the 12 EDO major 3rd and
the J.I. major 3rd a while back on Scala. I could tell
the difference, but there wasn't much of a one. In a real
song it would be even harder I assume.

*********************************************************

>
> > There are *many* choices outside of 12 EDO but not
> > as many... if two things are accepted as absolutes:
> >
> > 1) scale must have a reasonable number of notes,
> > (so that it is physically playable)
>
> Aren't there still literally *thousands* of potential tunings in
that range?
>
> > 2) scale must contain all 12 EDO notes
>
> If you mean the 12edo pitches *exactly*, then that is extremely
> limited.
***********************************************************
Yes, 12 EDO exactly, to maintain upward compatibility. To
extend what already exists.
*********************************************************

But there are many more scales that, while not imitating the
> exact cent values, imitate the same functions. 19 and 31edo come
to
> mind. Would you exclude them? I wouldn't. :) I think they've
been
> the most hyped as "the next big thing."
>
> That being said... my attraction to the microtonal scene is
precisely
> that it moves the issue of tuning from the realm of the monolithic
> standard and into the realm of choice: the tuning becomes
something
> special and specific to the individual work. So, IMO, "the next
big
> thing" shouldn't be a specific tuning, but rather an adoption of a
> flexible language (whether cent values or ratios or whatever) that
> allows that choice to exist.

**************************************************************
Thanks for the input on 19 and 31 edo.

With tunings that are specific to individual works, one has
something that is special. With its pluses and minuses. The
disadvantage is that it is unlikely that it can be played
by someone else.

Not sure what you meant by this:

"flexible language "

Stephen Szpak

>
> IMO :)
>
> -Chris B.
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:

Thanks Gene

I can play 24 on the keyboard to a extent, so I'll
assume that 19 and 31 can be played as well.

Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
Monz told me a year or so ago that someone on the list
really likes it because it includes so much. That's nice
for the computer people, but for musicians I would think
it would be basically impossible to learn.

Stephen Szpak
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> <stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I was just thinking lately about what tuning (not tunings)
> > has a real future in the West.
>
> I'd say the main competitors in terms of equal temperaments at the
> moment are 19, 31 and 72 equal.
>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i think you have you might have to narrow that down to 31 and 72 :)

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
> >
>>I was just thinking lately about what tuning (not tunings)
>>has a real future in the West. >> >>
>
>I'd say the main competitors in terms of equal temperaments at the
>moment are 19, 31 and 72 equal.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> ***********************************************************
> Yes, 12 EDO exactly, to maintain upward compatibility. To
> extend what already exists.
> *********************************************************

Personally, I'm not convinced that upgradability is that big a deal.
Fixed-pitch instruments need to be redesigned at any rate, so while
you're at it, why not adjust some of the 12= notes? And
flexible-pitch instruments don't need to stick to 12 anyway. *For me
personally,* I'm attracted to microtones because I'm tired of "what
already exists" in the western classical tradition, so upward
compatibility doesn't matter much to me. And once you move to
anything microtonal, you've alienated 90% of performers anyway, so
that's an issue no matter what :)

> Not sure what you meant by this:
>
> "flexible language "

Traditional staff notation is not flexible, in that one can *only*
designate 12-equal pitches. Of course, variable-pitch instruments
have been adapting the tuning of traditional scores for centuries, but
theoretically, it is inflexible. On the other hand, notation that
uses either cent values or frequency ratios or whatever is
theoretically capable of expressing *any* tuning ever created, or that
ever could be created. Therefore, my hope would be that the diversity
of tunings would continue, but that a standard notation of them would
become more well-known and well-taught, to make new music more
accessable to more performers.

My final thought on the matter is that IMO it is extrememely unlikely
that any standard can become a common standard in our post-modern,
post-western, pluralistic world. 300 years ago, there was a common
(even while evolving) perception of "good music." When everyone has a
similar idea of what "good music" consists of, common standards
develop to realize that music. Now, on the other hand, while each of
us today may have a clear idea of our personal perception of "good
music," none of us (or very few of us) would go around trying to
prosyletize others to join our camp. Those that do are labeled and
shunned... most times for good reason. If you don't believe me, send
a post out telling the JI people that their tunings are inferior to
EDOs, or tell the EDOs that their tunings are "unnatural," and see
what happens ;) The point I'm trying to make is, people today are
very happy pursuing their own artistic goals, and letting others
pursue theirs; if you like the tuning, and if you have electronics
and/or performers to play you music, then great! There's no need to
enforce it on the rest of the world :) I think I speak for most
people when I say that. That plurality is both good and bad, because
it creates a musical culture that it both diverse and fractured. I
comfort myself when I hear my favorite composers because I know that
good music is still being made, and it couldn't have been made under
any standard. Maybe 100 years from now it will be lost... that's
something one has to accept. But my own personal conclusion is...

to hell with the standards, and do what you want!

:-D

(p.s. I've been trying not to offend anyone in my generalities, if I
have, I'm truly sorry. I think I've said enough :) )

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:

> Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?

It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an interest,
representing rather different perspectives. In fact, it would be a
good thing to add to Wikipedia for the tunings project.

> Monz told me a year or so ago that someone on the list
> really likes it because it includes so much. That's nice
> for the computer people, but for musicians I would think
> it would be basically impossible to learn.

I was arguing a while back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact easier for
most musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of 12.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
wrote:

> Traditional staff notation is not flexible, in that one can *only*
> designate 12-equal pitches.

This is not true. It was designed before 12-equal was in use, and
accomodates meantone and schismatic nicely. Hence it can be used in a
straightforward way to notate a lot of different tunings, and I think
is is the obvious way to notate 19 and 31 equal in particular.

> Therefore, my hope would be that the diversity
> of tunings would continue, but that a standard notation of them would
> become more well-known and well-taught, to make new music more
> accessable to more performers.

Keenan and Secor have been working on one, but it's very complex.

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

the 31 tone school has still produced more music than the 72

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>
> >
>> Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
>> >>
>
>It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an interest,
>representing rather different perspectives. In fact, it would be a
>good thing to add to Wikipedia for the tunings project.
>
> >
>> Monz told me a year or so ago that someone on the list
>> really likes it because it includes so much. That's nice
>> for the computer people, but for musicians I would think
>> it would be basically impossible to learn.
>> >>
>
>I was arguing a while back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
>system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
>switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact easier for
>most musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of 12.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>

that's really a very nice entry gene. I like your presentation ,very
even-handed and clear .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...>
wrote:
> >
> > Gene (and Stephen),
> >
> > {you wrote...}
> > >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> > ><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
> > >
> > >It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an
interest
> >
> > Well, just for starters, there's the Boston Microtonal Society:
> > http://bostonmicrotonalsociety.org/Pages/OpeningFrameset.html
>
> I just put up a Wikipedia entry:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/72_equal_temperament
>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

Checking out the audio section of

http://bostonmicrotonalsociety.org/Pages/OpeningFrameset.html

I made a list of the snippets I like:

"Sulle Scale della Fenice" by Chris Dench
"Night Piece" by Ezra Sims
"Trace des sorciers" by Manfred Stahnke -- what kind of scale is this?
"violin cadenza" by Julia Werntz
unnamed by Franck Yeznikian

I notice some patterns: I tend to like solo performance. I don't like tritones. I don't like big leaps unless they are harmonically very relevant. I like when the rhythm has some order in it. I like when I can sense a center of tonality.

- Magnus Jonsson

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan
<chrismbryan@g...> wrote:
>
> > With 19 you can tune up a guitar and start plunking away.
>
> Do you mean a "regular" 12-fretted guitar? How do you
> accomplish that??

At the risk of jumping in here where maybe i shouldn't,
i'm guessing that he means a guitar which has been
refretted into 19-edo. A 19-edo guitar is fairly easy
to play, compared with, say, a 31-edo, whose frets are
very close together, and which has 5 frets per whole-tone
compared to the 3 frets of 19-edo.

The two different sizes of "semitones" in 19-edo are
thus much easier to *see* on the guitar, because they
are simply one fret and two frets, as opposed to the
2 frets and 3 frets for the semitones of 31-edo.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

just for the record, it is not that i dislike the guitar, but don't see why it would be the instrument to determine the course of musical tuning

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
>wrote:
> >
>>>With 19 you can tune up a guitar and start plunking away.
>>> >>>
>>Do you mean a "regular" 12-fretted guitar? How do you accomplish that??
>> >>
>
>No, I mean a guitar designed for 19-tone music. People who play guitar
>but are unfamiliar with 19 tones seem to be able to catch on pretty fast.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 12/5/05, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> just for the record, it is not that i dislike the guitar, but don't see
> why it would be the instrument to determine the course of musical tuning

Everybody plays the guitar. In my Theory class, I've met maybe two
people who don't play the guitar. And I'm one of them.

I figure eventually someone is going to realize that their guitar pop
sounds just like everyone else's, and then they will turn to
microtones, and 19=.

--
~Tristan Parker
http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
-- Terry Riley

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i know many more musicans that don't play the guitar.
i don't like the sound of 19 at all unfortunately.
Rod Poole plays the guitar and has a 17 tone just that actually produces some great music.
things of this nature will influence music more than speculation.
Rozencrantz the Sane wrote:

>On 12/5/05, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >
>>just for the record, it is not that i dislike the guitar, but don't see
>>why it would be the instrument to determine the course of musical tuning
>> >>
>
>Everybody plays the guitar. In my Theory class, I've met maybe two
>people who don't play the guitar. And I'm one of them.
>
>I figure eventually someone is going to realize that their guitar pop
>sounds just like everyone else's, and then they will turn to
>microtones, and 19=.
>
>--
>~Tristan Parker
>http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
>"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
>-- Terry Riley
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗monz <monz@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
> <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Gene
>
> I can play 24 on the keyboard to a extent, so I'll
> assume that 19 and 31 can be played as well.
>
> Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?

Yes, it is taught by Joe Maneri and New England Conservatory and
practiced by many of his current and former students, in both
composition and performance.

> but for musicians I would think
> it would be basically impossible to learn.

It's far less impossible than you would think at first -- a little
training opens up a lot of pitch acuity. And far less impossible than
1200-equal, which some have claimed as a realistic practical system
for live performances of microtonal music.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...>
wrote:
>
> >*****************************************************
> > If I did it right I listened to the 12 EDO major 3rd and
> > the J.I. major 3rd a while back on Scala. I could tell
> > the difference, but there wasn't much of a one. In a real
> > song it would be even harder I assume.
> >
> >*********************************************************
>
> I dont think you did it right- the difference between a 12edo M3
and a JI M3
> like night and day, or rather like an "out of focus" picture that
suddenly
> is put in focus. Hard to miss.

And yet, I know an incredible pianist/composer from high school,
Randall Eng, who couldn't hear the difference. Unless you have a
musical or reason to hear and focus on the difference, your brain
will happily chug along with 12-based categorical perception.

I wouldn't assume that Stephen did anything wrong, Dante. It's just
that these differences are not always immediately apparent to someone
who's spent their whole life hearing only multiples of 100 cents.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

Ezra Sims typically has a specific acoustical and often ratio basis
for what he does, so "freely and intuitively" may be less appropriate
for him.

Common practice music doesn't need to be adapted to play it in 72-
equal -- just use one of the 12-equal subsets. If you want to use the
better consonances one can find in 72-equal while playing common
practice music, though, one will usually have to deal with pitch
drifts or shifts.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

So authoritative. How many concerts of the Boston Microtonal Society
and Boston Microtonal Collective have you been to? Which concerts
have you heard new music in 31 at lately?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> the 31 tone school has still produced more music than the 72
>
> Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> ><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an
interest,
> >representing rather different perspectives. In fact, it would be a
> >good thing to add to Wikipedia for the tunings project.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Monz told me a year or so ago that someone on the list
> >> really likes it because it includes so much. That's nice
> >> for the computer people, but for musicians I would think
> >> it would be basically impossible to learn.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I was arguing a while back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
> >system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
> >switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact easier
for
> >most musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of
12.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
> <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> > <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > that's really a very nice entry gene. I like your
> > > presentation ,very even-handed and clear .
> >
> > Thanks. We'll need a few more of those.
>
>
>
> I'd really appreciate it if i could get good new entries
> for the Tonalsoft Encyclopedia. There's a lot of stuff
> that should be there which still isn't.

There is also a lot of incorrect stuff there and I'm still trying to
figure out how to get you to fix it -- none of the ways I've tried to
communicate with you have worked. I'm glad you're actually
acknowledging the fact that you are adding to it -- for a while, you
seemed to be saying that adding to it had to wait for an overall
format conversion, but I saw some hilarious entries pop up . . .

Anyway, back to making music . . .

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

You should consider adding more links, such as

http://72note.com

Were you unaware of this page? Some of the material there may be
worth paraphrasing on your page too . . .

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

what is done outside of boston?
I have never heard a single 72 tone work live
what is published compared to the 31 tone school in holland.
where are the recordings outside of sims who uses it to approximate, or maybe as a method to notate JI

Paul Erlich wrote:

>So authoritative. How many concerts of the Boston Microtonal Society >and Boston Microtonal Collective have you been to? Which concerts >have you heard new music in 31 at lately?
>
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>>the 31 tone school has still produced more music than the 72
>>
>>Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
>>><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>> Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an >>> >>>
>interest,
> >
>>>representing rather different perspectives. In fact, it would be a
>>>good thing to add to Wikipedia for the tunings project.
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>> Monz told me a year or so ago that someone on the list
>>>> really likes it because it includes so much. That's nice
>>>> for the computer people, but for musicians I would think
>>>> it would be basically impossible to learn.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>I was arguing a while back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
>>>system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
>>>switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact easier >>> >>>
>for
> >
>>>most musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of >>> >>>
>12.
> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>-- >>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> what is done outside of boston?

You're answering a question with a question, Kraig.

> I have never heard a single 72 tone work live

Therefore none exist, right?

I have never heard a single 31 tone (equal) work live.

That doesn't mean none exist!

> what is published compared to the 31 tone school in holland.

Plenty. Haba, Carillo, Wychnegradsky, Xenakis -- the 'big' names of
microtonality at least in some circles -- have all published at least
some music in 72-equal.

Joe Maneri is not just a jazz musician, he is a composer of serious
contemporary music as well. And that just scratches the surface when
you take into account the expanding body of his former and current
students.

> where are the recordings outside of sims who uses it to
approximate, or
> maybe as a method to notate JI

Franz Richter Herf, Rolf Maedel, and James Tenney are perfect
examples besides Sims.

> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >So authoritative. How many concerts of the Boston Microtonal
Society
> >and Boston Microtonal Collective have you been to? Which concerts
> >have you heard new music in 31 at lately?
> >
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
<kraiggrady@a...>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>the 31 tone school has still produced more music than the 72
> >>
> >>Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> >>><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an
> >>>
> >>>
> >interest,
> >
> >
> >>>representing rather different perspectives. In fact, it would be
a
> >>>good thing to add to Wikipedia for the tunings project.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Monz told me a year or so ago that someone on the list
> >>>> really likes it because it includes so much. That's nice
> >>>> for the computer people, but for musicians I would think
> >>>> it would be basically impossible to learn.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>I was arguing a while back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
> >>>system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
> >>>switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact
easier
> >>>
> >>>
> >for
> >
> >
> >>>most musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of
> >>>
> >>>
> >12.
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>--
> >>Kraig Grady
> >>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> >>The Wandering Medicine Show
> >>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan
<chrismbryan@g...>
> wrote:
>
> > Traditional staff notation is not flexible, in that one can *only*
> > designate 12-equal pitches.
>
> This is not true. It was designed before 12-equal was in use, and
> accomodates meantone and schismatic nicely. Hence it can be used in
a
> straightforward way to notate a lot of different tunings, and I
think
> is is the obvious way to notate 19 and 31 equal in particular.
>
> > Therefore, my hope would be that the diversity
> > of tunings would continue, but that a standard notation of them
would
> > become more well-known and well-taught, to make new music more
> > accessable to more performers.
>
> Keenan and Secor have been working on one, but it's very complex.

Its complexity is proportional to the complexity of the tuning you
wish to notate, so for simple tunings it's relatively simple. For
those not yet familiar with it, there's a gentle (and very
entertaining! -- though not yet complete) explanation of the Sagittal
notation at:

http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/gift/GiftOfTheGods.htm

The introduction to the above also contains a brief history of and
rationale for the use of alternate tunings.

If that whets your appetite, you're also invited to the Sagittal home
page, where you'll find a few more goodies:

http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/

--George

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

tenney has one piece multiple harp piece. , never heard of the others. glad to hear it.
too bad there are not enough recordings

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >
>>>>where are the recordings outside of sims who uses it to >>>>approximate, or maybe as a method to notate JI
>>>> >>>>
>>>Franz Richter Herf, Rolf Maedel, and James Tenney are perfect >>>examples besides Sims.
>>> >>>
>>And don't forget the ANS synthesizer!
>> >>
>
>Right -- there was a whole school of 72-equal composition in the Soviet >Union for a couple of decades. Having been on the other side of the >Iron Curtain, there's hasn't been much documentation of this in >English . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

obviously you are not following a thing i said
since i never said 72 didn't exist.
duh
I have a translation of novaro who is the one of the first.
i just don't find the work significant at this point.
As you know i have stated it is one of the only ET i might consider.

I do find the music i have heard by certain members of the 31 tone school quite compelling when i heard it live and on recordings.
I can't say anything i have heard in 72 that has made any imprint
What do you expect me to say?
that i think it is the future of microtones?

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>
>Therefore none exist, right?
>
>I have never heard a single 31 tone (equal) work live.
>
>That doesn't mean none exist!
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

outside of xenakis these are just academic footnotes as they are people whose music we do not hear.
so what makes them significant.
that they existed in the past?

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>>tenney has one piece multiple harp piece. , never heard of the >> >>
>others. >
>You've never heard of Alois Haba?
>
>Julian Carillo?
>
>Ivan Wychnegradsky?
>
>Iannis Xenakis?
>
> >
>>too bad there are not enough recordings
>> >>
>
>I have a Xenakis recording in a subset of 72-equal and I didn't even >specifically go looking for such things . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> Ezra Sims typically has a specific acoustical and often ratio basis
> for what he does, so "freely and intuitively" may be less appropriate
> for him.

What would be more appropriate, do you think.

> Common practice music doesn't need to be adapted to play it in 72-
> equal -- just use one of the 12-equal subsets.

I thought of that and it seemed both painfully obvious and somewhat
deceptive, as that is not necessariy the best way to adapt things. But
I suppose it should be pointed out.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> obviously you are not following a thing i said
> since i never said 72 didn't exist.
> duh

Excuse me Kraig. You wrote,

"the 31 tone school has still produced more music than the 72."

I don't think either you or I are qualified to make such a sweeping
statement (or its opposite). How much do you really know about the work
of Evgeny Alexandrovich Murzin, Andrei Volkonsky, Nikolai Nikolsky,
Eduard Artemiev, Alexander Nemtin, Andrei Eshpai, Gennady Gladkov,
Pyotr Meshchianinov, and Stanislav Kreichi? Their school was on
the "wrong" side of the Iron Curtain so we both heard a lot more
mention of the Dutch 31-tone school naturally.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

I did not say of any composer "they are people whose music we do not
hear".

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> likewise paul
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
<kraiggrady@a...>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>outside of xenakis these are just academic footnotes as they are
> >>
> >>
> >people
> >
> >
> >>whose music we do not hear.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Speak for yourself, Kraig.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

like all statements regarding truth, it is based on the evidence at hand, when new evidence comes into place it will be appropriated revised.
i am sure there are those who have worked in 31 tones we haven't heard of too.
i too have tuned up 72 equal. so why isn't my name included.
also all the 31 tone people connected to emil richards
who knows who did what in St Louis?
How does one gauge what constitutes significance?
the other question is why is it so darn important to you.
Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>> obviously you are not following a thing i said
>> since i never said 72 didn't exist.
>> duh
>> >>
>
>Excuse me Kraig. You wrote,
>
>"the 31 tone school has still produced more music than the 72."
>
>I don't think either you or I are qualified to make such a sweeping >statement (or its opposite). How much do you really know about the work >of Evgeny Alexandrovich Murzin, Andrei Volkonsky, Nikolai Nikolsky, >Eduard Artemiev, Alexander Nemtin, Andrei Eshpai, Gennady Gladkov, >Pyotr Meshchianinov, and Stanislav Kreichi? Their school was on >the "wrong" side of the Iron Curtain so we both heard a lot more >mention of the Dutch 31-tone school naturally.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Paul,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> >
> > I'd really appreciate it if i could get good new entries
> > for the Tonalsoft Encyclopedia. There's a lot of stuff
> > that should be there which still isn't.
>
> There is also a lot of incorrect stuff there and I'm
> still trying to figure out how to get you to fix it -- none
> of the ways I've tried to communicate with you have worked.

Here's how you can get me to fix it:
offer me complete financial support. ;-)

That sounds like a joke, but i'm serious -- as much as
i love working on the Encyclopedia, it's a freebie
that i've given away to the world, and it nets me
exactly zero income.

Right now my priority has to be on Tonescape, on which
i'm staking my entire financial future.

I'm at company headquarters in Reno right now working
on it intensively with Chris, and shortly after i return
home next week we'll be releasing the next alpha version
"Mustang".

The big advance with the "Mustang" version is that,
besides exporting Tonescape files as MIDI files, you will
also be able to export them as Csound .csd files (that's
the format which combines both .orc and .sco into one file),
and -- the biggest move forward -- (with a limited instrument
set for now) export to .wav, .aif, and .mp3 (and we might
get .ogg in this one too).

There are also a number of other enhancements to the
user interface, including -- hopefully -- a few entries
on the Help menu.

> I'm glad you're actually acknowledging the fact that
> you are adding to it -- for a while, you seemed to be
> saying that adding to it had to wait for an overall
> format conversion,

The Encyclopedia's format conversion was completed
several months ago.

> but I saw some hilarious entries pop up . . .

Which were?

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Monz (and Paul, by reference),

{you wrote...}
>Here's how you can get me to fix it: offer me complete financial support. ;-)

Another way would be that anyone who thinks they have a fix to offer, or some other "enhancement" can do the rudimentary step of learning how to code the .html of the page, and fix the page and send it to you, including any custom graphics they might want on there. Yes, I realize you are now doing .aspx server-side code, but you could completely and easily incorporate the changes if the people wanting the changes took the time and effort to help you by putting it in a useable format.

>... but i'm serious -- as much as i love working on the Encyclopedia, it's >a freebie that i've given away to the world, and it nets me exactly zero >income.

Exactly! All the more reason for others to take the extra effort to assist you, and put back just a part of the energy you've put forth.

>Right now my priority has to be on Tonescape, on which i'm staking my >entire financial future.

You could always get a McDonald's franchise - those seem to do well. Anyway, it would sure be nice if instead of people just making lists of what you left out, or didn't get right, etc, they got their hands dirty. Then again, all I ever really did was that frameset coding for the alphabetical entries...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Jon,

Comments in support of my work much appreciated.
Suggestions to others also good advice to them.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> Anyway, it would sure be nice if instead of people
> just making lists of what you left out, or didn't get
> right, etc, they got their hands dirty. Then again,
> all I ever really did was that frameset coding for the
> alphabetical entries...

And that was a big help at the time, and i thank you
for it.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> the 31 tone school has still produced more music than the 72
>
> Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> > "stephenszpak" wrote:
> >
> > > Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
> > >
> > It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an
> > interest,representing rather different perspectives. In fact,
> > it would be a good thing to add to Wikipedia for the tunings
> > project.
> >
> > > Monz told me a year or so ago that someone on the list
> > > really likes it because it includes so much. That's nice
> > > for the computer people, but for musicians I would think
> > > it would be basically impossible to learn.
> > >
> >I was arguing a while back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
> >system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
> >switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact easier
> > formost musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of
> > 12.

Hi Kraig,

I don't think the value of a tuning can be judged by
the number of performers who use it, nor by the
number of works written in it. If we allowed a
popular vote to rule the day, we'd all give up on
everything else and go with the flow - 12-EDO!

... to every music-lover's detriment, of course.

Of course, to be useful in making music, a tuning
has to be practical to use. But given the wealth
of new instruments we have under our fingertips,
even a 12000-EDO tuning is eminently practical
for some kinds of music, if not for acoustic
instruments.

The practicality of 31-EDO and 72-EDO will
depend not only on the instruments, but also on
the performers themselves. Certainly, dividing
12 semitones into sixths, giving twelfthtones,
is easier _conceptually_ for anyone used to very
chromatic or highly modulatory 12-EDO music.

But in practice, if that performer should happen
to be a guitarist, he or she may revel in a 31-EDO
fretting because it gives better-sounding chords,
and quite naturally progress to choosing the one
of the two adjacent frets that sounds best.
(I'm a great believer in the adage that people
learn best by doing, rather than by being taught.)

And if that performer should happen to be a
keyboard player, he or she may well find the
Bosanquet keyboard just too wonderfully easy
to miss out on using! I've recently tried out the
software version, and I reckon it's a natural.
53-EDO, here I come! Well, just as soon as
Roland make a Bosanquet MIDI keyboard,
preferably with their sounds onboard.

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 5/12/05

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 "Paul Erlich" wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> > Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > i think you have you might have to narrow that down to 31 and 72 :)
> >
> > With 19 you can tune up a guitar and start plunking away.
>
> I found that to be true for 31 as well, though perhaps I have unusually
> skinny fingers for a man and an ability to see groups of 3 or 5 frets
> at a glance without counting.

Just a thought - it may be more about _feeling_ the right
distance for an interval (eg by the stretch in the muscles
and skin of the hand) than in seeing it. I have certainly
found this to be the case on fretless instruments; in fact,
looking sometimes serves to confuse me and choose the
wrong note.

With my unusually chunky fingers, I already have trouble
at the top end of a 12-EDO guitar! :~| So maybe a 19-EDO
fretted would be my limit, but you never know until you try.

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 5/12/05

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:

Is it possible to hit the chord C-E-G in 72 EDO
on a keyboard? I don't see it possible on a single
horizontal board (with 72 or more keys). S. Szpak

>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> <stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>
> > Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
>
> It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an
interest,
> representing rather different perspectives.> I was arguing a while
back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
> system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
> switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact easier
for
> most musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of
12.
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

the hanson layout accommodates it quite well.
don't have right at the moment though

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" ><gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
>
> Is it possible to hit the chord C-E-G in 72 EDO
> on a keyboard? I don't see it possible on a single
> horizontal board (with 72 or more keys). S. Szpak
>
>
>
>
> >
>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
>><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>> Does *anyone* *anywhere* actually play 72 EDO?
>>> >>>
>>It seems to be alive and well, with various groups taking an >> >>
>interest,
> >
>>representing rather different perspectives.> I was arguing a while >> >>
>back that a move to 31, which is a meantone
> >
>>system with far fewer notes, would be a lot easier for people to
>>switch to than to 72, but Paul insisted that 72 is in fact easier >> >>
>for
> >
>>most musicians. The point, of course, is that it's a multiple of >> >>
>12.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:

>
>Hi Kraig,
>
>I don't think the value of a tuning can be judged by >the number of performers who use it, nor by the
>number of works written in it. If we allowed a
>popular vote to rule the day, we'd all give up on
>everything else and go with the flow - 12-EDO!
> >
I tried to bring to this discussion that there is no waty to really determine signifcance, eswpeciuially in the short term.
Perceptions are subjective and i don't claim anything else, but so is everyone elses.
t
It is a subjective thing and what work for Paul and me are on opposite ends , which is fine as it leaves the door open for both almost imediately as the subject came up.
12 Et is one of the very best tunings possible, if there was reall any close contenders we would all be using it.
I know of not a single tuning that really rivals it especially how it is practiced

>... to every music-lover's detriment, of course.
>
>Of course, to be useful in making music, a tuning
>has to be practical to use. But given the wealth
>of new instruments we have under our fingertips,
>even a 12000-EDO tuning is eminently practical
>for some kinds of music, if not for acoustic >instruments.
> >
this is what my peterson tuner does , so in a sense all my tuning are a subset of this at the moment, depending if the tempature is 72 degrees or not :)

>The practicality of 31-EDO and 72-EDO will
>depend not only on the instruments, but also on >the performers themselves. Certainly, dividing
>12 semitones into sixths, giving twelfthtones,
>is easier _conceptually_ for anyone used to very
>chromatic or highly modulatory 12-EDO music.
>
>But in practice, if that performer should happen >to be a guitarist, he or she may revel in a 31-EDO
>fretting because it gives better-sounding chords,
>and quite naturally progress to choosing the one
>of the two adjacent frets that sounds best. >(I'm a great believer in the adage that people >learn best by doing, rather than by being taught.)
> >
the 31 tone school had two violinists who showed great agility in the music that they could play.
i apologize i have forgotten their names.
as some one who did work in 31 tones and later a 31-36 tone just, i found 22 way more usuable and we shouldn't forget the variable 22 tone scales available., from ET to the 1-3-7-9-11-15 eikosany and Ervs and others 7 limits etc.
and they are even smaller than 24 .

>And if that performer should happen to be a >keyboard player, he or she may well find the >Bosanquet keyboard just too wonderfully easy
>to miss out on using! I've recently tried out the >software version, and I reckon it's a natural. >53-EDO, here I come! Well, just as soon as >Roland make a Bosanquet MIDI keyboard, >preferably with their sounds onboard.
> >
a generalized keyboard will do alot, but i advise not waiting for the big honchos as they will be the last to jump on the bandwagon. it takes a certain bravery to get these things done.
Look at george secor who got his organ built and there was maybe 3 percent of the people who were interested in microtones there are now. and whatr we are talking about is far easier
either make one or buy one by any means posssible.
Otherwise you might be an old man stuck on a list like this merely dreaming what lies just under the surface.
Columbus couldn't wait for the steam ship to be built, he had to take his voyage with what he had

>
>Regards,
>Yahya
>
> >
likewise:)
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz"
<yahya@m...> wrote:
>
Hi All

Just a few more words on A Real Future.

I really like Neil Haverstick comments on this.

12 eq is, as someone said, very entrenched in
Western music today (and most other countries as well), so just
dealing with
that is a huge issue. But, on the other hand, since so much of
American
culture is fad oriented, if a big name performer with a large
following
decided to use a non 12 tuning in a musical project, say a guitarist
like
Joe Satriani, then I bet that, overnight, many young guitarists would
suddenly be interested in using that same tuning.

I agree that huge changes can occur very quickly because
of our mass-media culture. I on the other hand am just me.
Even if I composed several really nice pieces using my 24 note
scale (found in Scala if you're desperate) I couldn't change
anything. I don't have what Michelangelo had. The
ability to make porn respectable.

Stephen Szpak

>>>
> I don't think the value of a tuning can be judged by
> the number of performers who use it, nor by the
> number of works written in it.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

of a major triad with the octave? sure the scale expands in the vertical direction for more remote relations.
Sorry i can't find a good one to put up at the moment

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
>
> Sorry, I'm refering to the size of our hands. It can't be
> possible to hit the notes simultaneously (??). S. Szpak
> >
>>the hanson layout accommodates it quite well.
>> don't have right at the moment though
>>
>>stephenszpak wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" >>><gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it possible to hit the chord C-E-G in 72 EDO
>>> on a keyboard? I don't see it possible on a single
>>> horizontal board (with 72 or more keys). S. Szpak
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz"
<yahya@m...> wrote:
>
>>
Not to be nasty, but a tuning that has these 2 things,
sounds like a great success. The advantage of standards,
is that they *encourage* musicical composition (as long as
there are not *too* many standards). As far as people doing
their own thing in some lightly used tuning (whatever,23 EDO
18 EDO, I'm no expert) ...they are totally free to do so, and
I have nothing against that. S. Szpak

I thought that 24 (EDO or non-EDO) was a logical step away
from 12 EDO, that allowed the familiar and different to be
side by side. (only my opinion of course)

Stephen Szpak

> Hi Kraig,
>
> I don't think the value of a tuning can be judged by
> the number of performers who use it, nor by the
> number of works written in it.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

sometimes the sheer beauty of a tuning is what compels significant music.
i use the tunings i use are for this reason.
I could care less about "practical' matters. and hardly something logical has ever really inspired me to attempt a musical piece
if there is nothing in it that moves me to keep playing and composing in the tuning i might as well stay in 12 or investigate some other ways of approaching music altogether.
It is for this reason that you have so many practitioners of JI.
They could care less with its so called limitations finding it a worthwhile poetic resource.
stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" ><yahya@m...> wrote:
> >
> Not to be nasty, but a tuning that has these 2 things,
> sounds like a great success. The advantage of standards,
> is that they *encourage* musicical composition (as long as
> there are not *too* many standards). As far as people doing
> their own thing in some lightly used tuning (whatever,23 EDO
> 18 EDO, I'm no expert) ...they are totally free to do so, and
> I have nothing against that. S. Szpak
>
> I thought that 24 (EDO or non-EDO) was a logical step away
> from 12 EDO, that allowed the familiar and different to be
> side by side. (only my opinion of course)
>
> Stephen Szpak
>
>
>
> >
>>Hi Kraig,
>>
>>I don't think the value of a tuning can be judged by >>the number of performers who use it, nor by the
>>number of works written in it. >> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@...>

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible to hit the chord C-E-G in 72 EDO
> on a keyboard? I don't see it possible on a single
> horizontal board (with 72 or more keys). S. Szpak

A two-dimensional keyboard will handle 72-EDO very nicely. Here's my
design for a "decimal" keyboard for 31-ET, 41-ET, 72-ET, and the
Miracle temperament, with homogeneous fingering patterns, both
transpositional and trans-tuning. The octave distance is the same as
on a conventional piano keyboard. (You'll need to join the tuning-math
group in order to view this file.)

/tuning-math/files/secor/kbds/KbDec72.gif

--George

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> 12 Et is one of the very best tunings possible, if there was reall any
> close contenders we would all be using it.

Not really. It's partly a historical relic. 12 et developed out of
meantone practice, which means that the only alternative likely to
have taken hold is 19 et.

> I know of not a single tuning that really rivals it especially how it
> is practiced

It depends on whether you like the sound, which is a little off. I
especially don't like it for Renassiance music, but fortunately for
that repertoire performers are not wedded to it. Of course around here
people use all kinds of unlikely things such as 14 et, but I think
music (and I'm going to horrify some people here) is likely to develop
away from acoustic intruments increasingly. While I think people will
always want to sing (which actually isn't easy to do in 12 et), or
play something, the fact is you can already produce sounds which are
clearly musical using electronic means, even if they tend to horrify
Jon. That situation will continue to improve, because technology
improves. Once you are committed to a musical practice which allows
you to produce any tone you happen to like, you are in a situation
where 12 et just isn't very special, at all.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i think there is good reason why it replaced meantone as it offered certain compositional possibilities. this is because modulation is an expressive element of western music, at least until recently. I agree that its use for early music is generally is not very satisfying, By the way 12 ET is practiced i was referring to it flexibility around this 'ideal" in the hands of orchestras and string quartets.
there is absolutely nothing outside of large amounts of cash to make me personally use 19 ET.
and even Mandlebaum moved away from it quite quickly.
Possibly Paul or you might be able to correct me but it seems that there is more 31 tone music than 19.
even more 22 due to Paul promotion of it too i would venture to say.

The one exception is Neil Haversticks work which works quite well for what he is doing.
In fact i can not think of another musician who i think has really mastered it the way he has and possibly should be considered a good model for what it can do.although while not as home with 34 for obvious reasons, i have enjoyed these works of his also.

I just don't see composers like Lou Harrison, Terry Riley, Kyle Gann, Rod Poole, Bill Alves, Stephen Taylor,Alex Carpenter, Cris Forster, David Beardsley, David Canwright, David Doty, Dean Drummond, Ben Johnson and myself etc. being roped into such a future.
Possibly the days of such monotheistic tuning practices are forever gone.
If we really look at it, the idea of a single tuning is absurd considering the different musical momentum even yourself and i have, and we are only two.
What we share only exist on a sematic level and no other,
We both do microtones, and this is language and divorced froom the actual sounds we each like to make.

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>wrote:
>
> >
>> 12 Et is one of the very best tunings possible, if there was reall any >>close contenders we would all be using it.
>> >>
>
>Not really. It's partly a historical relic. 12 et developed out of
>meantone practice, which means that the only alternative likely to
>have taken hold is 19 et. >
> >
>> I know of not a single tuning that really rivals it especially how it >>is practiced
>> >>
>
>It depends on whether you like the sound, which is a little off. I
>especially don't like it for Renassiance music, but fortunately for
>that repertoire performers are not wedded to it. Of course around here
>people use all kinds of unlikely things such as 14 et, but I think
>music (and I'm going to horrify some people here) is likely to develop
>away from acoustic intruments increasingly. While I think people will
>always want to sing (which actually isn't easy to do in 12 et), or
>play something, the fact is you can already produce sounds which are
>clearly musical using electronic means, even if they tend to horrify
>Jon. That situation will continue to improve, because technology
>improves. Once you are committed to a musical practice which allows
>you to produce any tone you happen to like, you are in a situation
>where 12 et just isn't very special, at all.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>i think there is good reason why it replaced meantone as it offered
>certain compositional possibilities. this is because modulation is an
>expressive element of western music, at least until recently.

Absolutely. And this point is often overlooked when 12 is classified
as a meantone (it is more).

>I agree that its use for early music is generally is not very
>satisfying,

I'm to the point now where the few 12 early recordings I have, I
positively cannot stand.

>By the way 12 ET is practiced i was referring to it flexibility
>around this 'ideal" in the hands of orchestras and string quartets.

Not sure what you mean here, but the notion that 12 is used, at
least as a *tuning*, on free pitch instruments is a huge myth in
my book. It amazes me how persistent it is in the alternate
tuning world.

> there is absolutely nothing outside of large amounts of cash to make
>me personally use 19 ET.

I, on the other hand, love 19. And agree that it is our best chance
to see popular xentonal music anytime soon. And indeed, the only
music on these lists I have ever heard that could even remotely be
called popular was the 19-tone work of Neil Haverstick's group.
Catler isn't a member here, but his stuff is JI and possibly non-
experimental.

>The one exception is Neil Haversticks work which works quite well for
>what he is doing.
> In fact i can not think of another musician who i think has really
>mastered it the way he has and possibly should be considered a good
>model for what it can do.although while not as home with 34 for obvious
>reasons, i have enjoyed these works of his also.

Heh. I hadn't read this when I wrote the above.

>I just don't see composers like Lou Harrison, Terry Riley, Kyle Gann,
>Rod Poole, Bill Alves, Stephen Taylor, Alex Carpenter, Cris Forster,
>David Beardsley, David Canwright, David Doty, Dean Drummond, Ben Johnson
>and myself etc. being roped into such a future.

I haven't heard any microtonal work from these composers that would
pass for non-experimental. Stephen Taylor told me he's 'snuck some
things in' but I haven't heard those things.

-Carl

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> there is absolutely nothing outside of large amounts of cash to
make me
> personally use 19 ET.
> and even Mandlebaum moved away from it quite quickly.

Kraig, have you ever considered trying a 19-tone *well-temperament*
as an alternative to 19-ET? I find that the most severe drawbacks of
19-ET can be largely remedied this way -- much more successfully,
IMO, than a 12-tone well-temperament vs. 12-ET.

Several years ago I posted a message proposing a multi-purpose tuning
that contains 19-tone well-temperament that could be used on a free-
bass accordion:

/tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287

Later I learned that my well-temperament contains a chain of fifths
that is very close to Erv Wilson's temperament (the name for it
escapes me, at the moment) with 1:1:1 proportional-beating triads.
As a result, I have since modified my 19+3 temperament so that the
best fifths are the same size as Erv's.

--George

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

when i get an instrument that can handle such a thing i will give it a try.
I still have your 12 tone proportional beating scale loaded up here.
You revised this?
i seem to lose track at a certain point
there are quite a few 19 tone just scales that interest me too

George D. Secor wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>> there is absolutely nothing outside of large amounts of cash to >> >>
>make me > >
>>personally use 19 ET.
>> and even Mandlebaum moved away from it quite quickly.
>> >>
>
>Kraig, have you ever considered trying a 19-tone *well-temperament* >as an alternative to 19-ET? I find that the most severe drawbacks of >19-ET can be largely remedied this way -- much more successfully, >IMO, than a 12-tone well-temperament vs. 12-ET.
>
>Several years ago I posted a message proposing a multi-purpose tuning >that contains 19-tone well-temperament that could be used on a free-
>bass accordion:
>
>/tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287
>
>Later I learned that my well-temperament contains a chain of fifths >that is very close to Erv Wilson's temperament (the name for it >escapes me, at the moment) with 1:1:1 proportional-beating triads. >As a result, I have since modified my 19+3 temperament so that the >best fifths are the same size as Erv's.
>
>--George
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

Jon,

I've provided Monz with entire corrected pages in .html before. Now
they're all in .aspx, but I can still edit them in IE! Doesn't seem
like a problem (am I missing something?) But that doesn't answer my
question or solve my problem, which is what to do with these
corrected pages so that Monz will upload them into the Encyclopedia.
E-mail them? Upload them somewhere? This is what I've been trying to
find out, to no avail!

Thanks,
Paul

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...>
wrote:
>
> Monz (and Paul, by reference),
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Here's how you can get me to fix it: offer me complete financial
support. ;-)
>
> Another way would be that anyone who thinks they have a fix to
offer, or
> some other "enhancement" can do the rudimentary step of learning
how to
> code the .html of the page, and fix the page and send it to you,
including
> any custom graphics they might want on there. Yes, I realize you
are now
> doing .aspx server-side code, but you could completely and easily
> incorporate the changes if the people wanting the changes took the
time and
> effort to help you by putting it in a useable format.
>
> >... but i'm serious -- as much as i love working on the
Encyclopedia, it's
> >a freebie that i've given away to the world, and it nets me
exactly zero
> >income.
>
> Exactly! All the more reason for others to take the extra effort to
assist
> you, and put back just a part of the energy you've put forth.
>
> >Right now my priority has to be on Tonescape, on which i'm staking
my
> >entire financial future.
>
> You could always get a McDonald's franchise - those seem to do
well.
> Anyway, it would sure be nice if instead of people just making
lists of
> what you left out, or didn't get right, etc, they got their hands
dirty.
> Then again, all I ever really did was that frameset coding for the
> alphabetical entries...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> It is a subjective thing and what work for Paul and me are on
opposite
> ends ,

Why do you say that? Opposite ends? I see far more similarity than
difference here between our points of view on "what works".

> the 31 tone school had two violinists who showed great agility in
the
> music that they could play.
> i apologize i have forgotten their names.

Bouw Lemkes and Jeanne Vos

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Paul,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> Jon,
>
> I've provided Monz with entire corrected pages in .html
> before. Now they're all in .aspx, but I can still edit
> them in IE! Doesn't seem like a problem (am I missing
> something?) But that doesn't answer my question or solve
> my problem, which is what to do with these corrected
> pages so that Monz will upload them into the Encyclopedia.
> E-mail them? Upload them somewhere? This is what I've been
> trying to find out, to no avail!

I've just been really busy working on the software.

If you can send me an entire corrected page in .aspx
format, that's great, just email it to me and i'll
replace it.

... but wait until after December 12, which is when
i return home.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor"
<gdsecor@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
<kraiggrady@a...>
> wrote:
> >
> > there is absolutely nothing outside of large amounts of cash to
> make me
> > personally use 19 ET.
> > and even Mandlebaum moved away from it quite quickly.
>
> Kraig, have you ever considered trying a 19-tone *well-temperament*
> as an alternative to 19-ET? I find that the most severe drawbacks
of
> 19-ET can be largely remedied this way -- much more successfully,
> IMO, than a 12-tone well-temperament vs. 12-ET.
>
> Several years ago I posted a message proposing a multi-purpose
tuning
> that contains 19-tone well-temperament that could be used on a free-
> bass accordion:
>
> /tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287
>
> Later I learned that my well-temperament contains a chain of fifths
> that is very close to Erv Wilson's temperament (the name for it
> escapes me, at the moment)

Meta meantone, or meta-meantone, or metameantone.

> with 1:1:1 proportional-beating triads.
> As a result, I have since modified my 19+3 temperament so that the
> best fifths are the same size as Erv's.
>
> --George
>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Paul,

{you wrote...}
>I've provided Monz with entire corrected pages in .html before. Now >they're all in .aspx, but I can still edit them in IE!

Yes, it is still html coding, just that they are automatically spit out from a server.

>But that doesn't answer my question or solve my problem, which is what to >do with these corrected pages so that Monz will upload them into the >Encyclopedia. E-mail them? Upload them somewhere? This is what I've been >trying to find out, to no
>avail!

Then Joe isn't being very helpful either. I don't want to get in the middle of things, but there isn't any reason you couldn't simply send him an email with the page (that you've edited and saved) as an attachment. Or you can even open up the .html page in a plain text editor and copy and paste the code into the body of an email messages. There are probably dozens of ways for you to send him corrected pages, so I'm not sure what the issue is for both/either sides. I wish you both well in getting this accomplished, and feel free to write me privately if you need more concrete direction (i.e. we're pretty OT for MMM at this point...).

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Jon Szanto wrote:

>db,
>
>{you wrote...}
> >
>>Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>I haven't heard any microtonal work from these composers that would
>>>pass for non-experimental. Stephen Taylor told me he's 'snuck some
>>>things in' but I haven't heard those things.
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>I'm not experimenting.
>> >>
>
>"I do not write experimental music. My experimenting is done before I make >the music. Afterwards, it is the listener who must experiment."
>- Edgard Varese
>
>Cheers,
>Jon >
Uh...great minds think alike? I know someone else said it before...but I'm serious.
If I was experimenting, I would be an improvisor. (in some quarters that comment would really draw flack.)

[hey Kraig...don't say anything to Rod. Kyle...keep it low.]
;)

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Jon (and Paul),

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> There are probably dozens of ways for you to send him
> corrected pages, so I'm not sure what the issue is for
> both/either sides. I wish you both well in getting this
> accomplished,

The issue is just that, besides having to drive all over
San Diego teaching music lessons for income, i'm also
working *all the time* on getting Tonescape ready for
release. Just too busy to spend much time on the
Encyclopedia ... but i do want to be sure that errors
are corrected, so i will see to this. Especially because
of today's important new development ...

> and feel free to write me privately if you need more
> concrete direction (i.e. we're pretty OT for MMM at
> this point...).

Ah ... that's what *you* think!

I'm extremely happy to report that Chris and i have
just gotten started on the "Help" menu for Tonescape
... and as soon as all the basic help stuff is done
(i.e., what users really need to know to make the
software work), the next phase is to incorporate the
*entire* Tonalsoft Encyclopedia into the Tonescape
"Help" menu!

So within the next few months, i'll finally be
realizing my years-long dream of integrating the
Encyclopedia and the software.

Users will be able to read about stuff in the Encyclopedia
right from the Tonescape help menu, then try it out
in Tonescape. And vice versa: while working in Tonescape,
if there is a question about anything that's in the
Encyclopedia, it's just an *OFFLINE* mouse-click away.
Yay!

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

don't you improvise some elements to what you do though?
Rod is in england so you are safe, David Beardsley wrote:

>Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> >
>>db,
>>
>>{you wrote...}
>> >>
>> >>
>>>Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>I haven't heard any microtonal work from these composers that would
>>>>pass for non-experimental. Stephen Taylor told me he's 'snuck some
>>>>things in' but I haven't heard those things.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>I'm not experimenting.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>"I do not write experimental music. My experimenting is done before I make >>the music. Afterwards, it is the listener who must experiment."
>>- Edgard Varese
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Jon >>
>> >>
>Uh...great minds think alike? I know someone else said it before...but >I'm serious.
>If I was experimenting, I would be an improvisor. (in some quarters that >comment would really draw flack.)
>
>[hey Kraig...don't say anything to Rod. Kyle...keep it low.]
>;)
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗monz <monz@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 12/8/05, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
> Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> >db,
> >
> >{you wrote...}
> >
> >
> >>Carl Lumma wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I haven't heard any microtonal work from these composers that would
> >>>pass for non-experimental. Stephen Taylor told me he's 'snuck some
> >>>things in' but I haven't heard those things.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I'm not experimenting.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >"I do not write experimental music. My experimenting is done before I make
> >the music. Afterwards, it is the listener who must experiment."
> >- Edgard Varese
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Jon
> >
> Uh...great minds think alike? I know someone else said it before...but
> I'm serious.
> If I was experimenting, I would be an improvisor. (in some quarters that
> comment would really draw flack.)
>

I'm done experimenting, too. I think I know pretty well what something
I improvise is going to sound like, and if I don't, I'm going to find
out before I start recording or performing.

I think my through-composed music is far more experimental than my
improvisational music, since most of it is me saying "what does this
bit of math sound like?"

--
~Tristan Parkerhttp://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
0"reckah egnufeb rehtona tsuj">:#,_@

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Kraig Grady wrote:

>don't you improvise some elements to what you do though?
> Rod is in england so you are safe, >

Really? I thought he's in Hollywood.

It depends on the gig. The last thing I did in August I could say was improvised,
but I had been working on elements of that all year. I think I knew what would
happen when I threw them together. Otherwise...

I know plenty of people who practice improvisation and then play the same material
on stage.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>I'm done experimenting, too. I think I know pretty well what
>something I improvise is going to sound like, and if I don't,
>I'm going to find out before I start recording or performing.
>
>I think my through-composed music is far more experimental
>than my improvisational music, since most of it is me saying
>"what does this bit of math sound like?"

By experimental I didn't mean anything about improvisation.
I meant: do you have an audience of non-vanishing size?
And to some extent (the two are related): can people dance
to your music?

It occurred to me that most popular music today is dance
music. In the 1980s, too. For a brief period in the '70s,
this was perhaps not the case. I don't think it was true
in the Common Practice period, but I could be wrong. It
seems to have been true in the Baroque and Renaissance...

-Carl

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

rod is visiting england. oxford i believe
i have noticed the same thing about some improvisers in this category.
I think this is ok cause people are who they are and they should play who they are.
this subject has caused the demise of keith rowe in AMM. i find the hostility a bit overboard since i can recognize Prevost playing anywhere .
He is a great player, but to recognize him he must be repeating something

David Beardsley wrote:

>Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> >
>>don't you improvise some elements to what you do though?
>>Rod is in england so you are safe, >>
>> >>
>
>Really? I thought he's in Hollywood.
>
>It depends on the gig. The last thing I did in August I could say was >improvised,
>but I had been working on elements of that all year. I think I knew what >would
>happen when I threw them together. Otherwise...
>
>I know plenty of people who practice improvisation and then play the >same material
>on stage.
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

this was erv name for it, meaning 'like ' and fits with his use of the term in front of slendro pelog etc.
but what problem do you have with it

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> >
>>Meta meantone, or meta-meantone, or metameantone.
>> >>
>
>I call it "Wilson meantone"; I don't think it's accurately
>characterized by "meta".
>
>
>
>
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>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 12/8/05, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
> >I'm done experimenting, too. I think I know pretty well what
> >something I improvise is going to sound like, and if I don't,
> >I'm going to find out before I start recording or performing.
> >
> >I think my through-composed music is far more experimental
> >than my improvisational music, since most of it is me saying
> >"what does this bit of math sound like?"
>
> By experimental I didn't mean anything about improvisation.
> I meant: do you have an audience of non-vanishing size?
> And to some extent (the two are related): can people dance
> to your music?

I have almost no audience, and I'm not danceable, but neither of those
make my music experimental, because there's no experimentation going
on. (except in the cases I mentioned)

If you mean obscure then say that.

--
~Tristan Parkerhttp://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz0"reckah egnufeb
rehtona tsuj">:#,_@

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

considering india and china have the largest population.
Any criteria of what is popular would have to first start with them

Rozencrantz the Sane wrote:

>On 12/8/05, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
> >
>>>I'm done experimenting, too. I think I know pretty well what
>>>something I improvise is going to sound like, and if I don't,
>>>I'm going to find out before I start recording or performing.
>>>
>>>I think my through-composed music is far more experimental
>>>than my improvisational music, since most of it is me saying
>>>"what does this bit of math sound like?"
>>> >>>
>>By experimental I didn't mean anything about improvisation.
>>I meant: do you have an audience of non-vanishing size?
>>And to some extent (the two are related): can people dance
>>to your music?
>> >>
>
>I have almost no audience, and I'm not danceable, but neither of those
>make my music experimental, because there's no experimentation going
>on. (except in the cases I mentioned)
>
>If you mean obscure then say that.
>
>--
>~Tristan Parkerhttp://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz0"reckah egnufeb
>rehtona tsuj">:#,_@
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Carl Lumma wrote:

>By experimental I didn't mean anything about improvisation.
>I meant: do you have an audience of non-vanishing size?
> >
Fly that by me in English? People keep showing up, they don't vainish into thin air during sets.

>And to some extent (the two are related): can people dance
>to your music?
> >

It's fine by me is they sleep to it. And they love it.

And let's face it Carl: I've done five gigs with a dance company in the past two years.
That's a pretty stupid question.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

well thats what he called it for his own reason.
possibly since it is differ than all the historical meantones.
Concieved 'after' meantone is possibly how he meant it

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>wrote:
> >
>>this was erv name for it, meaning 'like ' and fits with his use of the >>term in front of slendro pelog etc.
>> but what problem do you have with it
>> >>
>
>In the first place, "meta" doesn't mean "like", it means "next to";
>but either way my objection is that it *is* meantone. I resist the
>idea that "meantone" means "quarter comma meantone" whenever possible.
>
>
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>
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>
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> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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> >
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> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >I couldn't disagree more. Apparently truth doesn't matter?
>
> Talk to Harold Pinter about 'truth'.

I don't think truth is something to put in scare quotes, and when last
sighted Pinter was a playwright, not a philospher. I *do* care if
something is correct, vs not correct. It was an OK exit lint for
Pilate, but that was 2000 years ago, and history does not suggest to
me that scoffing at the idea of truth has since proven helpful. I
think it is important to have your vocabulary match the way things
really are. While tuning theory is not of cosmic significance, still
there isn't any point in confusing people by getting them to think
that 2/7-comma is a meantone tuning, but the Wilson fifth is not. Why?
Because it's not true, as simple as that.

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i think this is how hanson got to this tuning too

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor"
><gdsecor@y...> wrote:
>
> >
>>Kraig, have you ever considered trying a 19-tone *well-temperament* >>as an alternative to 19-ET? I find that the most severe drawbacks of >>19-ET can be largely remedied this way -- much more successfully, >>IMO, than a 12-tone well-temperament vs. 12-ET.
>> >>
>
>While 34-et hardly cries aloud for well-tempering, I think you could
>set up a system with mostly synch tuned triads, and then a small
>region of slightly improved tuning to balance it, all around a circle
>of minor thirds. Should you ever feel inspired...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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> >
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> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

if something is experimental or not seems to be a non issue.
i can not think of a single microtonal artist who isn't under your definition of experimental, so why the distinction.

i find most music they call dance music, undanceable

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>And let's face it Carl: I've done five gigs with a dance company
>>in the past two years.
>>That's a pretty stupid question.
>> >>
>
>I didn't know that. But dance companies dance to a lot of things
>that aren't "danceable", in what I'd call standard music terminology.
>I haven't heard anything of yours since Sonic Bloom (which was
>not danceable and definitely "experimental").
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>if something is experimental or not seems to be a non issue.

I thought the subject at hand was the broader adoption/appeal
of overtly microtonal music.

>i can not think of a single microtonal artist who isn't under your
>definition of experimental, so why the distinction.

Probably all overtly microtonal music falls under the heading
of experimental by default. Haverstick and Catler are really
the only groups I can think of that near escape velocity.
Actually Robert Rich, Marcus Hobbs, and a few others. But
none of the regular participants of these lists come to mind.
Electronica/minimalism (whether it likes to be called that or
not) reaches a certain crowd and adapts wonderfully to JI and
other microtonal systems, but is rather confined in scope both
musically and commercially for the foreseeable future. Though
"electronic music" has become surprisingly hip, and for now
seems to be the biggest success of microtones in the West overt
or not.

> i find most music they call dance music, undanceable

Not to mention unlistenable!

-Carl

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>if something is experimental or not seems to be a non issue.
>> >>
>
>I thought the subject at hand was the broader adoption/appeal
>of overtly microtonal music.
> >
why not make the super bowl commercials the standard for the outreach of microtonal music.

in fact anything not on super bowl commercials is experimental, and not significant.
.

> >
>>i can not think of a single microtonal artist who isn't under your >>definition of experimental, so why the distinction.
>> >>
>
>Probably all overtly microtonal music falls under the heading
>of experimental by default. Haverstick and Catler are really
>the only groups I can think of that near escape velocity.
>Actually Robert Rich, Marcus Hobbs, and a few others. But
>none of the regular participants of these lists come to mind.
>Electronica/minimalism (whether it likes to be called that or
>not) reaches a certain crowd and adapts wonderfully to JI and
>other microtonal systems, but is rather confined in scope both
>musically and commercially for the foreseeable future. Though
>"electronic music" has become surprisingly hip, and for now
>seems to be the biggest success of microtones in the West overt
>or not.
> >

i do not see where they are really doing that much better than many of the others.
it seems you define experimental and what is pop by your own taste.
this is no comment on their worth at all.
for instance
Catler when he played in L.A. Played to the same audience that Beardsley, Poole and I played to.
I don't know anyone who has ever heard of them except if they ran across them at a namm show
that Neil and Rich are possibly doing better but not to giant place.
Rich plays in the same size places , when he plays
who have ever heard much of Hobbs music.

Reinhard for one plays in as many places if not more
(as myself for that matter). i am sure there are others that i can't remember due to lack of coffee at the moment

> >
>>i find most music they call dance music, undanceable
>> >>
>
>Not to mention unlistenable!
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> >>if something is experimental or not seems to be a non issue.
>
>IMHO (which seems to be confimed by this conversation), talking about
>what is "experimental" or not is not going to be very productive,
>because no one can agree on what the term actually means. For some
>people, it means "Outside the mainstream," i.e. "not 'popular'"
>(Whatever that means!), while for others it means "I (the composer)
>wasn't sure how it was going to turn out."
>
>Clearly those two definitions are completely unrelated, and it's easy
>to ruffle feathers when people don't know that they're not talking
>about the same thing!

Which is why I clearly stated what I meant several times.
It still ain't enough for some people, though.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

it is hard to guess what the market is for many of the artist doing microtones .
my own stuff has been put in every category i can imagine. one store has moved it around to three places
The varied people who say like Robert Rich are some quite opposing genographics, from goths to housewives
the thing is when he started his music was not in a category.
In the 80's he played in the same punk club i did in LA.
It might be that the single target marketing of the record industry might be why their sales are down.
As a listener, i might like a vast amount of what is labeled under goth and industrial as differentiated from dark metal etc.
the result of this type of marketing has made me not investigate either since i have to go to specialized camps and magazines and hangouts just to begin to find out what is going on.

While the beatles were bought primarily by youngsters (maybe) , they were marketed to everyone. via prime time TV and commercial films. I am sure they made a hefty sum from orchestrations and muzak version of their music too.

Harry Partch used to appear on PBS all the time which is where an extraordinary people first heard about him.
No one really thought of him as experimental atthe time as just maybe eccentric.
Now partch has become way more 'experimental' and he probably sells less.
in other words he is now in the section along the composers he hated the worse
this is the result of marketing (sic)

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>it seems you define experimental and what is pop by your own taste.
>> >>
>
>By my judgement of its market, as if I were working for a
>record label (which might happen, so don't tick me off. :).
>Certainly not my taste.
>
> >
>>this is no comment on their worth at all.
>> >>
>
>When did I say anything about worth!
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>it is hard to guess what the market is for many of the artist doing
>microtones.
> my own stuff has been put in every category i can imagine. one store
>has moved it around to three places

>The varied people who say like Robert Rich are some quite opposing
>genographics, from goths to housewives

I guess I've only been exposed to the New Age contingent.

> As a listener, i might like a vast amount of what is labeled under
>goth and industrial as differentiated from dark metal etc.

I have the most diverse music collection of anyone I've ever
compared with.

-Carl

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

hearts of space no longer is on the air in LA

David Beardsley wrote:

>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> >
>>>The varied people who say like Robert Rich are some quite opposing >>>genographics, from goths to housewives
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>I guess I've only been exposed to the New Age contingent.
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>Robert Rich's strongest market is the space muisc crowd (Tangerine >Dreame, Klaus Schultz, Hearts of Space).
>Then ambient, dark ambient.
>
>It's the space muisc crowd that enables him to do national tours.
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Carl Lumma wrote:

Although I didn't plan it that way, it appears the music is a bit more accessible
now that it was six years ago. Using a guitar changed a lot.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>I didn't know that. But dance companies dance to a lot of things
>>that aren't "danceable", in what I'd call standard music terminology.
>>I haven't heard anything of yours since Sonic Bloom (which was
>>not danceable and definitely "experimental").
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>Sure you do. When I posted links to photos to my web site on the
>tuning list, you said they were cool.

Oh, I do remember that. Sorry!

>Although I didn't plan it that way, it appears the music is a bit
>more accessible now that it was six years ago. Using a guitar
>changed a lot.

I'd love to hear some. I liked Sonic Bloom well enough, by
the way.

-Carl

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗danieljameswolf <djwolf@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> Harry Partch used to appear on PBS all the time which is where an
> extraordinary people first heard about him.

I first heard about Partch in 7th Grade, which was sometime late in
the Nixon Administration. My English teacher was a subscriber to KCET,
the PBS affiliate in LA, and she had a copy in her classroom of the
monthly program guide announcing a broadcast of "The Music of Harry
Partch". This was before cable, and we lived too far from LA to get
KCET by antenna, so I had to wait until the late 90's to see the
program. But a week or two later, I used my paper route money to buy a
copy of the World of Harry Partch LP. (This was one of the two Quad
recordings in the house, the other being the (superb) Serebrier Ives
Fourth). So I've lived with that music a long time. Not as long as the
red-vinyl Cal Tjader Latin Jazz Concert (the cover of which had a
cartoon of Tjader's band playing in a bull fight arena, with a balloon
shouting "Nixon go home" coming from the crowd). And not as long as
the Monteux recording of Le Sacre (with the Rousseau painting on the
cover). And not as long as either Jacky Gleason's Velvet Brass or
Martin Denny's Exotica. But certainly long enough to have had its own
perverse impact on a twelve-year old.

But I digress...

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> >
It seems that the microtonal composer/musician should
decide for himself/herself what direction one wants to
go. Does one want to be a commercial success or not?

If one wants to be a commercial success ( and therefore
establish microtonal music, as 12 EDO is established) one
should look at what popular music has. (I can't take this
very far myself.) It almost always has relavant lyrics,
{{lyrics about romance,for example}}
a melody line, a beat ( and of course, beautiful people).

There is much written here about math and ratios (which
is fine)...yet 12 EDO is said by many to lack so much,
and be so out of tune.
Yet the multi-billion dollar record industry is based
on it. Most people in the West love one or more styles
of 12 EDO music, yet hate,or are at least indifferent
to other styles of 12 EDO music.

Conclusion(?) As much as I see the logic or moving
to 24 (in varied versions if you wish) or 19 or 31 etc.
the logic and math involved are
largley irrelavant to its future.

If the
masses, especially the young (13 to 29 yrs.) don't go
for the song, that's the end. The rest is *ull*hit.

Stephen Szpak

It does seem, however, that much of
the micro music I've heard over the years is certainly more "weird"
than
"popular;" and I'm trying to make a point here, not be too literal.
Most of
the compositions I've heard have little to do with folk, blues,
country, or
any pop style...not judging, either, it's just what I've noticed.
Since I
genuinely like American pop styles, it's only natural for me to
compose in
them, regardless of tuning. And, I also believe that the only way
non 12
tunings will hit the big time is for someone to make them "popular,"

Neil Haverstick

> >
> It occurred to me that most popular music today is dance
> music. In the 1980s, too. > -Carl
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:

A good place to start:

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/beasty-boys-fight-for-your-right-to-
party-lyrics.html

(hee, hee)

But really, look at the top 10 hits over the past 25 years.
That is, if one wants to make money (and music millions
will love).

By the way I don't have anything against understanding
tuning and such. I probably don't see the value in it because
I can't grasp it.

Keep playing,

Stephen Szpak

>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
wrote:
> >
> > >
> It seems that the microtonal composer/musician should
> decide for himself/herself what direction one wants to
> go. Does one want to be a commercial success or not?
>
> If one wants to be a commercial success ( and therefore
> establish microtonal music, as 12 EDO is established) one
> should look at what popular music has. (I can't take this
> very far myself.) It almost always has relavant lyrics,
> {{lyrics about romance,for example}}
> a melody line, a beat ( and of course, beautiful people).
>
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> ---Gene

My scale is extremely close to quartertone. Of course with
24 (non-EDO) one can do many things indeed. There are
many scales.

It takes so
long to master 24 though (for me at least).

TO ANYONE:

By the way I'm willing to call (phone) if you live in
eastern Massachusetts (so you don't have phone charges)
if someone wants to help me with Audacity sometime this
month. My problem with recording with it is probably
a simple one. E-mails too are fine.
S. Szpak

> Your scale is not likely to overthrow 12-et because so much of it
*is*
> 12-et. I don't really see much advantage to it over quarter tones.
But
> then, quarter tones are big in the sense that they get used a heck of
> a lot, especially outside the west.
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

really! when and where was this done, or should we wait.

David Beardsley wrote:

>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> >
>>>Although I didn't plan it that way, it appears the music is a bit
>>>more accessible now that it was six years ago. Using a guitar
>>>changed a lot.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>I'd love to hear some. I liked Sonic Bloom well enough, by
>>the way.
>> >>
>> >>
>I haven't been recording too much lately. I do have a recording of a >show that
>Kyle Gann reviewed three years ago. Glad to hear you liked Sonic Bloom,
>it's a direction I go in again someday.
>
>There is a string qt. coming out sometime soon, I don't know when though.
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

either.
By the way i think of myself as having the most diverse
1,700 Cds of music from around the world. ( of course i have quite a bit of euro/us genre category stuff too)
it is all relative,
but it would be hard to find a collection that represented as many different tunings :)

Carl Lumma wrote:

>Which?
>
> >
>>how much of this stuff do you have
>>
>>Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>As a listener, i might like a vast amount of what is labeled under
>>>>goth and industrial as differentiated from dark metal etc.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>I have the most diverse music collection of anyone I've ever
>>>compared with.
>>>
>>>-Carl
>>> >>>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i can't imagine a 7th grader having easy access to any of these now. we were lucky
even though one could download some of this stuff maybe, if they knew where to look
funny I also had a quad copy of
the world of HP
long since disappeared

danieljameswolf wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>wrote:
>
> >
>>Harry Partch used to appear on PBS all the time which is where an >>extraordinary people first heard about him.
>> >>
>
>I first heard about Partch in 7th Grade, which was sometime late in
>the Nixon Administration. My English teacher was a subscriber to KCET,
>the PBS affiliate in LA, and she had a copy in her classroom of the
>monthly program guide announcing a broadcast of "The Music of Harry
>Partch". This was before cable, and we lived too far from LA to get
>KCET by antenna, so I had to wait until the late 90's to see the
>program. But a week or two later, I used my paper route money to buy a
>copy of the World of Harry Partch LP. (This was one of the two Quad
>recordings in the house, the other being the (superb) Serebrier Ives
>Fourth). So I've lived with that music a long time. Not as long as the
>red-vinyl Cal Tjader Latin Jazz Concert (the cover of which had a
>cartoon of Tjader's band playing in a bull fight arena, with a balloon
>shouting "Nixon go home" coming from the crowd). And not as long as
>the Monteux recording of Le Sacre (with the Rousseau painting on the
>cover). And not as long as either Jacky Gleason's Velvet Brass or
>Martin Denny's Exotica. But certainly long enough to have had its own
>perverse impact on a twelve-year old.
>
>But I digress...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i would say that pitch in general is not the most important element of pop music.
Most predictions of the future tend to be pretty far off as what actually happens.
logic works better in the sciences than it does in the arts.

i often wonder what it would be like to take a piece of music back to mozart or bach or even ockehem
I bet most of what you played they wouldn't like.

So i try to imagine the worse music i can, but find i can't imagine anything uglier or more absurd than we already have here:).
possibly more porn, soft and otherwise
stephenszpak wrote:

>
> > Conclusion(?) As much as I see the logic or moving
> to 24 (in varied versions if you wish) or 19 or 31 etc.
> the logic and math involved are > largley irrelavant to its future. >
> If the
> masses, especially the young (13 to 29 yrs.) don't go
> for the song, that's the end. The rest is *ull*hit.
>
> Stephen Szpak
>
> >
> >
>
>It does seem, however, that much of
>the micro music I've heard over the years is certainly more "weird" >than
>"popular;" and I'm trying to make a point here, not be too literal. >Most of
>the compositions I've heard have little to do with folk, blues, >country, or
>any pop style...not judging, either, it's just what I've noticed. >Since I
>genuinely like American pop styles, it's only natural for me to >compose in
>them, regardless of tuning. And, I also believe that the only way >non 12
>tunings will hit the big time is for someone to make them "popular," >
>Neil Haverstick
>
> >
>>It occurred to me that most popular music today is dance
>>music. In the 1980s, too. > -Carl
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

by the way the supreme court has ruled that the printing of lyrics on a website is a violation of copyrights and now subject to jail time.
the ones i imagine are always better than the real ones

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" ><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>
> A good place to start:
>
>http://www.lyricsdownload.com/beasty-boys-fight-for-your-right-to-
>party-lyrics.html
>
>(hee, hee)
>
> But really, look at the top 10 hits over the past 25 years.
> That is, if one wants to make money (and music millions
> will love).
>
> By the way I don't have anything against understanding
> tuning and such. I probably don't see the value in it because
> I can't grasp it.
> > Keep playing,
>
> Stephen Szpak
>
>
>
> >
>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> >> >>
>wrote:
> >
>> It seems that the microtonal composer/musician should
>> decide for himself/herself what direction one wants to
>> go. Does one want to be a commercial success or not?
>>
>> If one wants to be a commercial success ( and therefore
>> establish microtonal music, as 12 EDO is established) one
>> should look at what popular music has. (I can't take this
>> very far myself.) It almost always has relavant lyrics,
>> {{lyrics about romance,for example}}
>> a melody line, a beat ( and of course, beautiful people).
>>
>> >> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

there appears to be an .avi copy of "world of HP" on p2p, and since most 7th
graders download, actually they do have access to it! (although i dont
imagine its a hot download). i also see an avi of enclosure 1 there too.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 12:59 AM
>To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: A Real Future
>
>
> i can't imagine a 7th grader having easy access to any of these now. we
>were lucky
> even though one could download some of this stuff maybe, if they knew
>where to look
>funny I also had a quad copy of
> the world of HP
> long since disappeared
>
>danieljameswolf wrote:
>
>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Harry Partch used to appear on PBS all the time which is where an
>>>extraordinary people first heard about him.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I first heard about Partch in 7th Grade, which was sometime late in
>>the Nixon Administration. My English teacher was a subscriber to KCET,
>>the PBS affiliate in LA, and she had a copy in her classroom of the
>>monthly program guide announcing a broadcast of "The Music of Harry
>>Partch". This was before cable, and we lived too far from LA to get
>>KCET by antenna, so I had to wait until the late 90's to see the
>>program. But a week or two later, I used my paper route money to buy a
>>copy of the World of Harry Partch LP. (This was one of the two Quad
>>recordings in the house, the other being the (superb) Serebrier Ives
>>Fourth). So I've lived with that music a long time. Not as long as the
>>red-vinyl Cal Tjader Latin Jazz Concert (the cover of which had a
>>cartoon of Tjader's band playing in a bull fight arena, with a balloon
>>shouting "Nixon go home" coming from the crowd). And not as long as
>>the Monteux recording of Le Sacre (with the Rousseau painting on the
>>cover). And not as long as either Jacky Gleason's Velvet Brass or
>>Martin Denny's Exotica. But certainly long enough to have had its own
>>perverse impact on a twelve-year old.
>>
>>But I digress...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Wonderful story! I don't know what it is, but first-time Partch
stories tend to be special ('it came on the radio and I almost
lost control of the car' kind of thing).

-Carl

>> Harry Partch used to appear on PBS all the time which is where an
>> extraordinary people first heard about him.
>
>I first heard about Partch in 7th Grade, which was sometime late in
>the Nixon Administration. My English teacher was a subscriber to KCET,
>the PBS affiliate in LA, and she had a copy in her classroom of the
>monthly program guide announcing a broadcast of "The Music of Harry
>Partch". This was before cable, and we lived too far from LA to get
>KCET by antenna, so I had to wait until the late 90's to see the
>program. But a week or two later, I used my paper route money to buy a
>copy of the World of Harry Partch LP. (This was one of the two Quad
>recordings in the house, the other being the (superb) Serebrier Ives
>Fourth). So I've lived with that music a long time. Not as long as the
>red-vinyl Cal Tjader Latin Jazz Concert (the cover of which had a
>cartoon of Tjader's band playing in a bull fight arena, with a balloon
>shouting "Nixon go home" coming from the crowd). And not as long as
>the Monteux recording of Le Sacre (with the Rousseau painting on the
>cover). And not as long as either Jacky Gleason's Velvet Brass or
>Martin Denny's Exotica. But certainly long enough to have had its own
>perverse impact on a twelve-year old.
>
>But I digress...

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

> It seems that the microtonal composer/musician should
> decide for himself/herself what direction one wants to
> go. Does one want to be a commercial success or not?

Like most musicians I've known, I imagine the ones on this list
are growing / relating to their audience in the way that feels
natural to them.

My comments were in the context of a thread that seemed to be
tossing around grand predictions for the success of
microtonality -- whatever that would look like. One of the
most famous Eminem songs has an overtly microtonal lead at the
end of it. What more could you want?

> If one wants to be a commercial success ( and therefore
> establish microtonal music, as 12 EDO is established) one
> should look at what popular music has. (I can't take this
> very far myself.) It almost always has relavant lyrics,
> {{lyrics about romance,for example}}
> a melody line, a beat ( and of course, beautiful people).

A most helpful of all, a sick beat -- as opposed to gee-whiz
patterns in beats.

> 12 EDO is said by many to lack so much, and be so out of
> tune.
> Yet the multi-billion dollar record industry is based
> on it.

What justification is there for a statement like this?

> Most people in the West love one or more styles
> of 12 EDO music, yet hate,or are at least indifferent
> to other styles of 12 EDO music.

The existence of styles and their associated cliques is
very interesting. Each style demands a different set of
listening skills to enjoy. Most people seem to enjoy the
few styles they happened to have been exposed to when
they happen to have been in the mode to listen. Few
people will bother with the unfamiliar for the sake of
learning how to enjoy it.

The minimum sophistication of listening skills a style
requires is seldom very high. Most styles employ fixed
characteristic chord progressions to assist listeners.
Baroque chamber music is extremely regular in this regard,
though the characteristic progressions are longer than
the I-IV-V-I of song.

-Carl

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> Conclusion(?) As much as I see the logic or moving
> to 24 (in varied versions if you wish) or 19 or 31 etc.
> the logic and math involved are
> largley irrelavant to its future.

I couldn't disagree more, since the "pop-ness" value of 12edo is only
the final result of the "logic and math" of ancient Greek theory,
which established the perfect 5th, 4th, and major 2nd as the
foundation of harmony, which every established tuning in the West from
then until now has approximated. The only reason the pop world is in
12 today is because of the logic and math of the Greeks. The "logic
and math" *precisely* detirmined the future.

> If the
> masses, especially the young (13 to 29 yrs.) don't go
> for the song, that's the end. The rest is *ull*hit.

In my opinion, the "young masses" will consume whatever the industry
gives them, because of the nature of popular music today. In the
past, popular music was detirmined by a shared communal culture.
Today, because of a lack of cultural community, what is popular is
dictated by an industry based on what will generate maximum profit.
If the industry decided to switch to 24 (or whatever) tomorrow, no one
would blink an eye... but that wouldn't prove anything about the
tuning except that some exec. thought it was profitable. But
switching tuning will never be profitable, because (paraphrasing what
Kraig said) the young masses aren't listening to the tuning anyway.
Therefore... I don't predict any changes in the pop music landscape
anytime soon, and I don't use that standard as any judgment of a
tuning's viability.

Of course, it's just my opninion...

-Chris

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>either.

Not sure what you're asking...

> By the way i think of myself as having the most diverse
> 1,700 Cds of music from around the world.

Ah, it's grown since I visited ... I thought you said you
had about 500 discs in your 'world' collection (?) then ('98).
I think you've got me beat on number. I keep guessing I have
around 1500, but I haven't counted in forever. Each one
represents almost 2 that I've owned at one time, though.

Anyway, I'm sure you have me beat on 'world' stuff -- I've
only got about 75 discs. And indeed, it could be argued that
this beats me on diversity. It's hard to define that word,
for sure. I have about 350 discs devoted to through-composed
Western orchestral and choir music, with subcollections of
brass ensemble and military music. It's particularly strong
on 'early' and 20th century. I have about a 100 discs of solo
keyboard music to go with that. About 500 discs of electric
Western music including a comprehensive progressive rock
subcollection, with nice hip hop, indie, punk, jamband, and
electronica subcollections. 200 discs of jazz, funk, soul,
and fusion. And maybe 300 discs of overtly microtonal stuff,
including everything remotely related to Partch (except Kronos),
stuff sent to me by list members, rare stuff like Hans Andre
Stamm, Brian McLaren's complete catalog as of 1998,
comprehensive barbershop... Plus 20 GB of mp3s of exotic
extraction, all hand-tagged and mp3gained, with a uniform
filename protocol. All of this is original albums and
cherry-picked performances.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 10:13 PM 12/10/2005, you wrote:
>i would say that pitch in general is not the most important element of
>pop music.

Bingo. Notes are subordinate to lyrics, which are subordinate
to sounds, which are subordinate to beats.

> Most predictions of the future tend to be pretty far off as what
>actually happens.
> logic works better in the sciences than it does in the arts.

Try predicting the future of science!

> i often wonder what it would be like to take a piece of music back to
>mozart or bach or even ockehem

Me too.

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> > It seems that the microtonal composer/musician should
> decide for himself/herself what direction one wants to
> go. Does one want to be a commercial success or not?
> > If one wants to be a commercial success ( and therefore
> establish microtonal music, as 12 EDO is established) one
> should look at what popular music has. (I can't take this
> very far myself.) It almost always has relavant lyrics,
> {{lyrics about romance,for example}}
> a melody line, a beat ( and of course, beautiful people).

Then there's the other approach ... doing music as a hobby, without any intention of being a commercial success. One of the things that I want when I'm writing music or improvising on the keyboard is more of the kinds of things I like to hear, but don't get enough of from commercial recordings. What I end up with doesn't always live up to those expectations, but I've had a few what I consider to be "successes" by my own standards. I've had cases where music originally written in 12-ET ended up sounding more interesting when converted to another tuning (http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/Transformation-vsc.mp3) as well as music originally written in a non-12 tuning that doesn't work at all in 12-ET (http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/porcupine-absynth.mp3).

> There is much written here about math and ratios (which
> is fine)...yet 12 EDO is said by many to lack so much,
> and be so out of tune.
> Yet the multi-billion dollar record industry is based
> on it. Most people in the West love one or more styles
> of 12 EDO music, yet hate,or are at least indifferent
> to other styles of 12 EDO music. Sure, it's out of tune, but that's not always a bad thing. It just seems overused and bland compared to the variety of tunings used in other parts of the world. Some of those are more "in tune" than others, but I like both kinds. (My CD collection is nothing compared to Kraig Grady's or Carl Lumma's, but I've got probably over 100 CD's of world music from every continent except Antarctica.) It's also an interesting challenge to try to write listenable music in a "bad" tuning, as I did once with 13-et (http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/triskaidekaphobia.mid) and I've attempted to do with other "challenging" tunings such as 11-et and 18-ET (http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/Unfinished-11et.mp3, http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/18et-sketch.mp3).

> Conclusion(?) As much as I see the logic or moving
> to 24 (in varied versions if you wish) or 19 or 31 etc.
> the logic and math involved are > largley irrelavant to its future. And arguments about popularity are largely irrelevant to this list, which is about using a variety of tuning systems to make music. But I have to admit that it'd be pretty cool if "alternative tuning" started to catch on with popular writers and performers. Many of them probably just don't know what they're missing out on.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

I wrote:

>I haven't been recording too much lately. I do have a recording of a >show that
>Kyle Gann reviewed three years ago. Glad to hear you liked Sonic Bloom,
>it's a direction I go in again someday.
>
>There is a string qt. coming out sometime soon, I don't know when though.
> >

Kraig Grady wrote:

>really! when and where was this done, or should we wait.
> >
Details on my web pages.

30 minutes long and it was recorded October 2004. I keep hearing it's
coming out and they keep changing the release date. Last thing I heard
was Jan. 2006.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

One version of metameantone that Erv happen to put up is seeded with the just major scale, this makes the distinction from what you would call meantone logical.
( i hadn't mentioned this aspect before.)

George D. Secor wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> >wrote:
> >
>>... While tuning theory is not of cosmic significance, still
>>there isn't any point in confusing people by getting them to think
>>that 2/7-comma is a meantone tuning, but the Wilson fifth is not. Why?
>>Because it's not true, as simple as that.
>> >>
>
>At least that could explain why I couldn't remember the >name 'metameantone'. :-)
>
>--George
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Hi all,

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 David Beardsley wrote:

[snip]
If I was experimenting, I would be an improvisor. (in some quarters that
comment would really draw flack.)

[hey Kraig...don't say anything to Rod. Kyle...keep it low.]
;)

Hey David,

Not flack ... but! improvisors often discover things
that composers never find. There's much to be said
for "a calculated serendipity".

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 9/12/05

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i think the amount of compositions that are edited or directed improvisations are higher than we realize.

Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 David Beardsley wrote: >
>[snip]
>If I was experimenting, I would be an improvisor. (in some quarters that >comment would really draw flack.)
>
>[hey Kraig...don't say anything to Rod. Kyle...keep it low.]
>;)
>
>Hey David,
>
>Not flack ... but! improvisors often discover things >that composers never find. There's much to be said >for "a calculated serendipity".
>
>Regards,
>Yahya
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> wrote:
> >
> > this was erv name for it, meaning 'like ' and fits with his use of
the
> > term in front of slendro pelog etc.
> > but what problem do you have with it
>
> In the first place, "meta" doesn't mean "like",

That's true . . .

> it means "next to";

"Meta" also has another meaning, as you know (as in _metamathematics_):
it refers to looking at something at a higher level of abstraction and
comprehensiveness. Metameantone not only functions the way meantones in
general do, it also has special properties in the typically neglected,
but arguably more fundamental, realm of vibration numbers and their
differences (which align), not to mention beat rates (which are
synchronized). Maybe this has something to do with Erv's choice of
terminology.

> but either way my objection is that it *is* meantone. I resist the
> idea that "meantone" means "quarter comma meantone" whenever possible.

So? We have various tuning of meantone: quarter comma meantone, meta
meantone, etc.

And what list is this anyway? :)

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...>
wrote:
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > {you wrote...}
> > >I couldn't disagree more. Apparently truth doesn't matter?
> >
> > Talk to Harold Pinter about 'truth'.
>
> I don't think truth is something to put in scare quotes, and when
last
> sighted Pinter was a playwright, not a philospher. I *do* care if
> something is correct, vs not correct. It was an OK exit lint for
> Pilate, but that was 2000 years ago, and history does not suggest to
> me that scoffing at the idea of truth has since proven helpful. I
> think it is important to have your vocabulary match the way things
> really are. While tuning theory is not of cosmic significance, still
> there isn't any point in confusing people by getting them to think
> that 2/7-comma is a meantone tuning, but the Wilson fifth is not.

Who said it's not? 2/7-comma meantone, meta meantone . . . they're
all meantones. Did anyone suggest otherwise?

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

yes you are correct and turns out to be the way he meant it.
he chooses his words carefully
Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>"Meta" also has another meaning, as you know (as in _metamathematics_): >it refers to looking at something at a higher level of abstraction and >comprehensiveness. Metameantone not only functions the way meantones in >general do, it also has special properties in the typically neglected, >but arguably more fundamental, realm of vibration numbers and their >differences (which align), not to mention beat rates (which are >synchronized). Maybe this has something to do with Erv's choice of >terminology.
>
> >
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

yes the dictionary has 7 to 8 meanings of the word
this i am aware

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:
> >
>>Gene,
>>
>>{you wrote...}
>> >>
>>>I don't think truth is something to put in scare quotes, and when >>> >>>
>last
> >
>>>sighted Pinter was a playwright, not a philospher.
>>> >>>
>>Spend a moment over at metatuning, and you'll catch my drift. Hmmm, >>*meta*. >> >>
>
>Another perfect example of where "meta" doesn't mean "next to".
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
wrote:
>
> > Conclusion(?) As much as I see the logic or moving
> > to 24 (in varied versions if you wish) or 19 or 31 etc.
> > the logic and math involved are
> > largley irrelavant to its future.
>
> I couldn't disagree more, since the "pop-ness" value of 12edo is
only
> the final result of the "logic and math" of ancient Greek theory,
> which established the perfect 5th, 4th, and major 2nd

Don't know about that last one!

> as the
> foundation of harmony, which every established tuning in the West
from
> then until now has approximated.

Sort of, though the earliest meantones were more concerned with
approximating the thirds and sixths.

> The only reason the pop world is in
> 12 today is because of the logic and math of the Greeks.

Or one could argue that it's because 12 is a more manageable variety
of meantone than 19 or 31. Although it was fashionable in the
Renaissance for rationalists of music and other fields to try to
connect everything to the ancient Greeks, I'd bet meantone would have
arisen in the West just the same, and led to the same subsequent
history, even if all the ancient Greek works had been destroyed in
Alexandria.

> The "logic
> and math" *precisely* detirmined the future.

I 90% disagree with you. This is because (as far as the latest
neuropsychological research can tell us) the subjective character of
our perceptions are determined 90% by our previous
experience/acculturation and our present desires ("top-down"), and
only 10% by what is actually coming in through our sense organs
("bottom-up") -- though naively (and until relatively recently,
everyone was naive on this) 100% *seems* to be coming in through our
sense organs. Thus I'd say that the play of tension and release
relative to the *expectations* based on previous listening is about 9
times more important than the tension and release in the objective
physical aspects of the sound. And since the former can work just as
well with just about any other tuning system or scale, I only 10%
agree with you. But I've always been one to go the extra 10%!

Anyway, why is this discussion happening on this list? Can we move it
elsewhere, so as to keep MMM on-topic? How about the tuning list?

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> > So? We have various tuning of meantone: quarter comma meantone,
meta
> > meantone, etc.
>
> Two points.
>
> (1) It's not a good name for a meantone fifth tuning.
>
> (2) It's already in use for recurrence sequences which converge to the
> Wilson meantone fifth, so using it to mean the Wilson fifth itself is
> inherently confusing anyway. It's like confusing Fibonacci numbers
> with the golden ratio.

Well, John Chalmers has referred to the converged tuning as
metameantone, and he's had a lot more contact with Erv Wilson than
either of us. So unless John wants to publically take this back, I'll
continue to follow his example. Please, no more on this on this list.

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>One of the
> >
> >
> > 12 EDO is said by many to lack so much, and be so out of
> > tune.
> > Yet the multi-billion dollar record industry is based
> > on it.
>
> What justification is there for a statement like this?

Are you saying it is based on money? I can see that.

The minimum sophistication of listening skills a style
> requires is seldom very high. Most styles employ fixed
> characteristic chord progressions to assist listeners.

Simple can be beautiful. Yes.

Stephen Szpak

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...>
wrote:

Herman

Yes I see that. I have nothing against people
doing music for themselves and the family. S. Szpak

>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
wrote:
> >
> > It seems that the microtonal composer/musician should
> > decide for himself/herself what direction one wants to
> > go. Does one want to be a commercial success or not?
> >
> > >
> Then there's the other approach ... doing music as a hobby,
without any
> intention of being a commercial success.

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

>
>>
> i often wonder what it would be like to take a piece of music
back to
> mozart or bach or even ockehem
> I bet most of what you played they wouldn't like.

I've watched too much TV. That reminds me of "Bill and Ted's
Excellent Adventure". They went back in time and picked up
some historic figures from previous centuries. One of them was
Bach (I think). He ended up in a music store. He loved it.
Went crazy on the keyboards.

Anyway people are people and won't change. After X years
a person's musical tastes are probably set. Can anyone
force themselves by strength of will to love a particular
type of music they hate? Rock, jazz, rap ( if that is even
music).

Stephen Szpak
>
> So i try to imagine the worse music i can, but find i can't
imagine
> anything uglier or more absurd than we already have here:).
>
> possibly more porn, soft and otherwise
>
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
>
> >

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > Carl

It was a few days ago so I'm not sure if I've found my
train of thought. I think what I meant to get across is
that even in the entire body of 12 EDO we can see that
it is *not* accepted. That is not in its entirety. Hardly anyone
loves all types of songs/compositions written in 12 EDO.
Yet it is all 12 EDO. The exact same 12 notes. S. Szpak

> > Most people in the West love one or more styles
> > of 12 EDO music, yet hate,or are at least indifferent
> > to other styles of 12 EDO music.
>
> The existence of styles and their associated cliques is
> very interesting. Each style demands a different set of
> listening skills to enjoy.

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Stephen,

{you wrote...}
>I'd be more than happy to discuss Audacity but no one wants to. Maybe >there should be a forum called RecordingMicroMusic.

You have to understand that describing something literally step by step about someone else's computer set up isn't something one would normally post to a list, especially when it might take a few posts just to figure out where the problem is. Recording the output of your computer's soundcard, as it plays music through Scala, should not be as hard as you are making it to be. Please write me off-list, as you have in the past, and I'll make sure you are getting it to work.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

> Anyway people are people and won't change. After X years
> a person's musical tastes are probably set. Can anyone
> force themselves by strength of will to love a particular
> type of music they hate? Rock, jazz, rap ( if that is even
> music).

Actually, I've found that with some effort I can learn to like any
kind of music. The first time I heard "Good Morning/Good Night" by
Otomo Yoshihide, Sachiko M, and Toshimaru Nakamura, I turned it off
after only a minute. But I saw a review of it that was detailed and
glowing enough for me to give it a really close listen, and it ended
up being one of my favorite albums. Same thing hapened to me with
Bach's Musical Offering, John Coltraine's improvisations, Bitches
Brew, and many other works that I initially disliked.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

If you're talking about "genres" as they are labeled today, the
differences are less about the music and more about the extra-musical
marketing aesthetic. 90% of the rock, rap, jazz, country, etc. being
produced today are musically equivalent because it's produced to
follow a formula. I can tolerate more rock than country, but that has
nothing to do with the music and everything to do with wide-brim hats,
belt buckles, and "twang."

But that's not to say my tastes can't change. What is required is
willingness based on recognition of musical value. The willingness
isn't there in today's "genres" because there is no real difference,
and therefore no reason to listen to anything else. However, the
difference between market-driven pop and intelligent pop, or blase
academic music and interesting academic music, *is* substantial, and
appreciation and enjoyment can be acquired.

Also, taste for different genres (in the true sense of the word, i.e.
different musical cultures) can be learned; for instance, someone who
grew up listening to western classical can learn to appreciate the
gamelan. Debussy (et al.) did it, anyway :)

-Chris

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

many of the composers i dismissed in my 20's are now my favorites while many i did like i have only kind memories for, and not much else.
But i think people need different things at different times.
i must say at the present , for maybe the first time. i have very little interest in rock ( actually i felt this way between 16-20 when i would listen to nothing but coltrane and stravinsky)

>> Anyway people are people and won't change. After X years
>> a person's musical tastes are probably set. Can anyone
>> force themselves by strength of will to love a particular
>> type of music they hate? Rock, jazz, rap ( if that is even
>> music).
>> >>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:
>
> > Anyway people are people and won't change. After X years
> > a person's musical tastes are probably set. Can anyone
> > force themselves by strength of will to love a particular
> > type of music they hate? Rock, jazz, rap ( if that is even
> > music).
>
> Actually, I've found that with some effort I can learn to like any
> kind of music. The first time I heard "Good Morning/Good Night" by
> Otomo Yoshihide, Sachiko M, and Toshimaru Nakamura, I turned it off
> after only a minute. But I saw a review of it that was detailed and
> glowing enough for me to give it a really close listen, and it ended
> up being one of my favorite albums. Same thing hapened to me with
> Bach's Musical Offering, John Coltraine's improvisations, Bitches
> Brew, and many other works that I initially disliked.

I find something similar. After weeks or months of becoming
acclimated to a style, it is the soul of the musician that comes
through (or fails to), and what I end up liking or disliking, rather
than the style itself.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> Actually, I've found that with some effort I can learn to like any
>> kind of music. The first time I heard "Good Morning/Good Night" by
>> Otomo Yoshihide, Sachiko M, and Toshimaru Nakamura, I turned it off
>> after only a minute. But I saw a review of it that was detailed and
>> glowing enough for me to give it a really close listen, and it ended
>> up being one of my favorite albums. Same thing hapened to me with
>> Bach's Musical Offering, John Coltraine's improvisations, Bitches
>> Brew, and many other works that I initially disliked.
>
>I find something similar. After weeks or months of becoming
>acclimated to a style, it is the soul of the musician that comes
>through (or fails to), and what I end up liking or disliking, rather
>than the style itself.

Totally.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 08:51 AM 12/15/2005, you wrote:
>> Anyway people are people and won't change. After X years
>> a person's musical tastes are probably set. Can anyone
>> force themselves by strength of will to love a particular
>> type of music they hate? Rock, jazz, rap ( if that is even
>> music).
>
>If you're talking about "genres" as they are labeled today, the
>differences are less about the music and more about the extra-musical
>marketing aesthetic.

Genres, contrary to what most musicians seem to believe, are not
created by record labels or markets. They are an integral part
of music, how it is concieved and heard. Most folks on this list,
myself included, are into experimental music, not because they
don't know what their music will sound like before they hear it,
but because they are not writing into an existing genre.

>90% of the rock, rap, jazz, country, etc. being
>produced today are musically equivalent because it's produced to
>follow a formula.

I can't agree with this statement.

>I can tolerate more rock than country, but that has
>nothing to do with the music and everything to do with wide-brim hats,
>belt buckles, and "twang."

Twang certainly sounds like a musical value. And there must be
others, or else I could play you some country without showing you
the jacket and you'd think it was rock (or vice versa).

>But that's not to say my tastes can't change. What is required is
>willingness based on recognition of musical value. The willingness
>isn't there in today's "genres" because there is no real difference,
>and therefore no reason to listen to anything else.

On the contrary, people who listen to beats (many of them with
very poor pitch perception skills) hear things in beats I never
would, and can distinguish 50 genres of electronica and as many
of hip hop before you can blink an eye. Genres exist because
people's listening skills are poor, not because all music is
the same and labels are trying to sell the same product multiple
times.

>Also, taste for different genres (in the true sense of the word, i.e.
>different musical cultures) can be learned; for instance, someone who
>grew up listening to western classical can learn to appreciate the
>gamelan. Debussy (et al.) did it, anyway :)

This can be done, but very few listeners bother. And certainly
punk is of a different culture than R&B... perhaps even more
different than those of impressionism and gamelan.

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Genres, contrary to what most musicians seem to believe, are not created >by record labels or markets. They are an integral part of music, how it is >concieved and heard.

Man, that is almost funny. This isn't to say that there aren't musical genres that exist *outside* of market-driven thinking, but you have to sit down a minute and explain "smooth jazz" or "lites-out jazz". If ever there was an entire genre that was market driven, including 'artists' that know exactly what is expected to sell an album and don't veer anywhere off that line, this is it. And really, all you would have to do is talk to people who have played on these albums, or worked in these bands.

>On the contrary, people who listen to beats (many of them with very poor >pitch perception skills) hear things in beats I never would, and can >distinguish 50 genres of electronica and as many of hip hop before you can >blink an eye. Genres exist because people's listening skills are poor...

Isn't detecting subtleties in beat-driven music a listening skill?

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 05:08 PM 12/15/2005, you wrote:
>Carl,
>
>{you wrote...}
>>Genres, contrary to what most musicians seem to believe, are not created
>>by record labels or markets. They are an integral part of music, how it
>>is concieved and heard.
>
>Man, that is almost funny. This isn't to say that there aren't musical
>genres that exist *outside* of market-driven thinking, but you have to sit
>down a minute and explain "smooth jazz" or "lites-out jazz". If ever there
>was an entire genre that was market driven, including 'artists' that know
>exactly what is expected to sell an album and don't veer anywhere off that
>line, this is it.

Believe it or not, I've met smooth jazz artists who sincerely love
smooth jazz, and wanted to follow (and perhaps improve on) their
favorite artists.

>And really, all you would have to do is talk to people
>who have played on these albums,

I have.

>>On the contrary, people who listen to beats (many of them with very poor
>>pitch perception skills) hear things in beats I never would, and can
>>distinguish 50 genres of electronica and as many of hip hop before you
>>can blink an eye. Genres exist because people's listening skills are
>>poor...
>
>Isn't detecting subtleties in beat-driven music a listening skill?

That's what I was saying, Jon.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>>On the contrary, people who listen to beats (many of them with very poor
>>>pitch perception skills) hear things in beats I never would, and can
>>>distinguish 50 genres of electronica and as many of hip hop before you
>>>can blink an eye. Genres exist because people's listening skills are
>>>poor...
>>
>>Isn't detecting subtleties in beat-driven music a listening skill?
>
>That's what I was saying, Jon.

I can see how that last sentence might have been confusing. I'd
hoped it'd be clear in the context of my earlier post(s). The idea
is that genres restrict what's allowed in music to guide listeners.
This last sentence is almost certainly too strong a statement of
that idea... but, like, if my listening skills were better, I'd be
able to appreciate electronica more (in this example). If some of
my friend's listening skills were better (or better-rounded), they'd
be able to appreciate classical music more. A big part of it is a
willingness to be uncomfortable for a little while. Maybe that's
a listening skill in and of itself.

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Believe it or not, I've met smooth jazz artists who sincerely love smooth >jazz, and wanted to follow (and perhaps improve on) their favorite artists.

If you believe them, then all hope is lost for the human race; if you don't believe them, then they are simply trying to stay employed. Just like the charming people that show up on "The Apprentice" - these days, people will do *anything*.

> >And really, all you would have to do is talk to people
> >who have played on these albums,
>
>I have.

Well, we are coming up with different samplings, to be expected I suppose.

> >>... and can
> >>distinguish 50 genres of electronica and as many of hip hop before you
> >>can blink an eye. Genres exist because people's listening skills are
> >>poor...
> >
> >Isn't detecting subtleties in beat-driven music a listening skill?
>
>That's what I was saying, Jon.

I guess it is a confusing wording: you describe people who can pick out 50 genres by listening, and then you say genres exist because of *poor* listening skills. Therein lies my confusion, though I agree with you on the abilities of many these days to discern minute differences in styles. One of the reasons I hang out at the best indie store in town, to stay sharp! :)

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> >If you're talking about "genres" as they are labeled today, the
> >differences are less about the music and more about the extra-musical
> >marketing aesthetic.
>
> Genres, contrary to what most musicians seem to believe, are not
> created by record labels or markets. They are an integral part
> of music, how it is concieved and heard.

I agree that genres weren't artificially created. I made the
distinction between the origin of genres (different cultures), and the
sustaining of genres, which has increasingly become a marketing issue
when the genre becomes divorced from it's cultural origin. When white
middle-class suburbanites listen to gangster rap, and urbanites listen
to country, a certain amount of artificial (read: marketing)
interference is required to keep the genre from transforming in a
natural way. Hence, there is the "image" of hip-hop, the "image" of
country, the "image" of rock, which are kept relatively pristine and
unaltered. Underneath the image (which does include token differences
of sound, historical artifacts of its origin) the structure of the
music becomes increasingly homogenous, because the culture that
created the genre is no longer controlling it.

Being a white suburbanite, I couldn't create authentic hip-hop. But
making a track that could be a mtv hit... that's another story.
Anyone can learn to adopt an image.

I have no idea how this got so far OT, but I apologize and I'm stopping now.

-Chris

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>Believe it or not, I've met smooth jazz artists who sincerely love smooth
>>jazz, and wanted to follow (and perhaps improve on) their favorite artists.
>
>If you believe them, then all hope is lost for the human race;

>if you don't believe them, then they are simply trying to stay employed.

These aren't people that got a letter in the mail one day offering
them a job if they'd sell out. They're people who have pursued that
style of playing their whole careers.

What do you call Spyro Gyra, by the way?

>Just like the charming people that show up on "The Apprentice" -
>these days, people will do *anything*.

I wouldn't know.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 02:45 AM 12/16/2005, you wrote:
>> >If you're talking about "genres" as they are labeled today, the
>> >differences are less about the music and more about the extra-musical
>> >marketing aesthetic.
>>
>> Genres, contrary to what most musicians seem to believe, are not
>> created by record labels or markets. They are an integral part
>> of music, how it is concieved and heard.
>
>I agree that genres weren't artificially created. I made the
>distinction between the origin of genres (different cultures), and the
>sustaining of genres, which has increasingly become a marketing issue
>when the genre becomes divorced from it's cultural origin.

Music is by nature cross-cultural.

>When white middle-class suburbanites listen to gangster rap,

Actually gangster rap was marketed *primarily* to white suburbanites
from the beginning!

>a certain amount of artificial (read: marketing)
>interference is required to keep the genre from transforming in a
>natural way.

I don't doubt that there's interference like this from labels and
marketing.

>Hence, there is the "image" of hip-hop, the "image" of
>country, the "image" of rock, which are kept relatively pristine and
>unaltered.

I dunno, I think there's been a fair degree of blending in this
example. We're talking about short time spans here. Genres
evolve over decades. Rap is only 3 decades old, at best.

The image thing isn't restricted to music, but to all aspects of
teenaged cultural life in contemporary Western culture. It
seems to have something to do with the nature of teenagers. They
just happen to be the main consumers of music.

>Underneath the image (which does include token differences
>of sound, historical artifacts of its origin) the structure of the
>music becomes increasingly homogenous, because the culture that
>created the genre is no longer controlling it.

With the right definition of "structure", you can get anything
to come out the same as anything else. There are clearly
differences between genres that matter to listeners -- listeners
can identify genres without looking at the jacket. There's no
doubt that non-musical aspects of "image" matter, and that's as
it should be, since music is art and artistic intent is a rather
wholistic thing, no matter what medium it expresses itself in.

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

{you wrote...}
>These aren't people that got a letter in the mail one day offering them a >job if they'd sell out. They're people who have pursued that style of >playing their whole careers.

I realize that.

>What do you call Spyro Gyra, by the way?

Better off financially than most?

> >Just like the charming people that show up on "The Apprentice" -
> >these days, people will do *anything*.
>
>I wouldn't know.

Don't get the wrong idea: this was just data mining - I don't sit around and watch it! :)

I agree with Chris, this has gotten way OT. I'll quit or go to metatuning.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

historically music is a big part in ones tribal identity
If only became or becomes cross cultural it is when when one group conquers another and then it is the sometimes the music that conquers the conquerors.
the different genres you mentioned earlier only exist because of a tribal identification of it listeners to that group.
'Avant garde' and 'experimental' still have their own tribal identity which defines so much of what it will not do that any notion of 'infinite possibilities" is as it practice shows, quite narrow.
Carl Lumma wrote:

>
>
>Music is by nature cross-cultural.
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>What do you call Spyro Gyra, by the way?
>
>Better off financially than most?

I meant, would you consider it smooth jazz? Much of it
is, I'd say. And some nifty stuff going on in their music.

>> >Just like the charming people that show up on "The Apprentice" -
>> >these days, people will do *anything*.
>>
>>I wouldn't know.

Shuuure you wouldn't. :)

>Don't get the wrong idea: this was just data mining - I don't sit
>around and watch it! :)
>
>I agree with Chris, this has gotten way OT.

Marketing seems pertinent, no?

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>historically music is a big part in ones tribal identity
> If only became or becomes cross cultural it is when when one group
>conquers another and then it is the sometimes the music that conquers
>the conquerors.

The mixing of musical ideas happens more readily than spoken language
and some other cultural things. Conquering is hardly necessary to
exchange them.

> 'Avant garde' and 'experimental' still have their own tribal identity
>which defines so much of what it will not do that any notion of
>'infinite possibilities" is as it practice shows, quite narrow.

There is a quasi-genre (probably several) called "experimental" with
its own clique, yes. But the other meaning of experimental could be
'unpopular' or, since listeners demand genre, 'not conforming to an
existing genre'.

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Yes, I suppose you're right.

There is also the idea that the plague induced the renaissance.
Ok, now we're definitely off topic. :)

-Carl

At 12:47 PM 12/16/2005, you wrote:
>Unfortunately this is the method civilization have been exchanging ideas
>more often than not.
> For instance without the crusades, there would not have been a renaissance
>
>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The mixing of musical ideas happens more readily than spoken language
>>and some other cultural things. Conquering is hardly necessary to
>>exchange them.
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:

After a number of replies like this one, I'll just
agree with you all. My tastes probably won't change though.
S. Szpak

>
> > Anyway people are people and won't change. After X years
> > a person's musical tastes are probably set.

> Actually, I've found that with some effort I can learn to like any
> kind of music. The first time I heard "Good Morning/Good Night" by
> Otomo Yoshihide, Sachiko M, and Toshimaru Nakamura, I turned it off
> after only a minute. But I saw a review of it that was detailed and
> glowing enough for me to give it a really close listen, and it
ended
> up being one of my favorite albums.>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>>
"This can be done, but very few listeners bother."

People that listen to music (and are non-musicians)
listen for the fun of it. There are always exceptions,
but I don't think people want to try (work) to appreciate
another type of music. They go with what hits them inside
immediately. (just my guess on the subject)

S. Szpak

> >Also, taste for different genres (in the true sense of the word,
i.e.
> >different musical cultures) can be learned; for instance, someone
who
> >grew up listening to western classical can learn to appreciate the
> >gamelan. Debussy (et al.) did it, anyway :)
>
> This can be done, but very few listeners bother. And certainly
> punk is of a different culture than R&B... perhaps even more
> different than those of impressionism and gamelan.
>
> -Carl
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

> Carl
>
> I thought is was 12 (until now). Are you saying that notes other
> than 12 EDO are used, or that a vocalist, for example, is singing
> a C# then pitchbending that to a C? (I'm not sure if the term here
> is Glissando or not.)

Glissandi are certainly microtonal effects. But also, notes other
than 12-tET are used. Before Auto-Tune came into wide use in pop
music, there was nothing to keep vocalists, or any other free-pitched
instruments, in 12-tET. It's true that 12-tET instruments like
the piano are widely taken as a reference for correct intonation.
And as an approximation, Western music is in 12-tET. But there
are many important deviations, especially in the classical world.
Rock is guitar-driven, and guitars are nominally in 12-tET, but
the blues is famous for its use of bent notes for microtonal effects.
And many artists of other schools use some degree of such bending.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

Music appreciation (if this is the correct term) probably
isn't mandatory in high school (at least to the extent reading is)
because understanding music is not considered to be important.
That is, unless one intends to be a professional musician.

Stephen Szpak

What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
meant to entertain an audience!

Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
well as great entertainment. Listening is mental exercise.
=================================================================

>
> > "This can be done, but very few listeners bother."
> >
> > People that listen to music (and are non-musicians)
> > listen for the fun of it. There are always exceptions,
> > but I don't think people want to try (work) to appreciate
> > another type of music. They go with what hits them inside
> > immediately. (just my guess on the subject)
>
> This seems to be the case, but it don't make it right
>
> http://lumma.org/microwave/#2005.09.21
>
> -Carl
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

I had mandatory "music" classes in elementary and middle school,
which were in fact music appreciation classes. All music stuff
was optional in high school, but theory and appreciation were
available. They were good enough that I tested out of two
semesters of theory at the conservatory at IU.

-Carl

At 04:11 PM 12/17/2005, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> Music appreciation (if this is the correct term) probably
> isn't mandatory in high school (at least to the extent reading is)
> because understanding music is not considered to be important.
> That is, unless one intends to be a professional musician.
>
>
> Stephen Szpak
>
>
>What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
>meant to entertain an audience!
>
>Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
>more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
>well as great entertainment. Listening is mental exercise.
>=================================================================
>
>>
>> > "This can be done, but very few listeners bother."
>> >
>> > People that listen to music (and are non-musicians)
>> > listen for the fun of it. There are always exceptions,
>> > but I don't think people want to try (work) to appreciate
>> > another type of music. They go with what hits them inside
>> > immediately. (just my guess on the subject)
>>
>> This seems to be the case, but it don't make it right
>>
>> http://lumma.org/microwave/#2005.09.21
>>
>> -Carl

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

but i am not entertained by stupid music

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> Music appreciation (if this is the correct term) probably
> isn't mandatory in high school (at least to the extent reading is)
> because understanding music is not considered to be important.
> That is, unless one intends to be a professional musician.
>
>
> Stephen Szpak
> >
>What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
>meant to entertain an audience!
>
>Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? Music, perhaps
>more than any other art form, can be a powerful learning tool as
>well as great entertainment. Listening is mental exercise.
>=================================================================
>
> >
>>> "This can be done, but very few listeners bother."
>>>
>>> People that listen to music (and are non-musicians)
>>> listen for the fun of it. There are always exceptions,
>>> but I don't think people want to try (work) to appreciate
>>> another type of music. They go with what hits them inside
>>> immediately. (just my guess on the subject)
>>> >>>
>>This seems to be the case, but it don't make it right
>>
>>http://lumma.org/microwave/#2005.09.21
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

That's fine, but loads of people love polkas. And they
all sound the same. (okay most)(some??)

Stephen
>
> but i am not entertained by stupid music
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
>
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
wrote:
> >
> > Music appreciation (if this is the correct term) probably
> > isn't mandatory in high school (at least to the extent reading
is)
> > because understanding music is not considered to be important.
> > That is, unless one intends to be a professional musician.
> >
> >
> > Stephen Szpak
> >
> >
> >What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
> >meant to entertain an audience!
> >
> >Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level?

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i don't know anyone who likes polkas anymore.
Both Lawrence Welk ( who show i worked on BTW)
and Polka Parade and no longer on the air

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
>
> That's fine, but loads of people love polkas. And they
> all sound the same. (okay most)(some??)
> > Stephen
> >
>>but i am not entertained by stupid music
>>
>>stephenszpak wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> >>> >>>
>wrote:
> >
>>> Music appreciation (if this is the correct term) probably
>>> isn't mandatory in high school (at least to the extent reading >>> >>>
>is)
> >
>>> because understanding music is not considered to be important.
>>> That is, unless one intends to be a professional musician.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stephen Szpak
>>> >>>
>>>What's the point of heady music if nobody likes it? Music is
>>>meant to entertain an audience!
>>>
>>>Why bother reading above a fourth-grade level? >>> >>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Yes i painted many of the sets in the last days.
quite fun stuff to work on as it was very' loose'
in execution. so one had a lot of room to play

Cartoon like cutout (2D) pieces for those not familiar with the show.
i never quite understood the musical appeal
Carl Lumma wrote:

>At 06:24 PM 12/17/2005, you wrote:
> >
>>i don't know anyone who likes polkas anymore.
>>Both Lawrence Welk ( who show i worked on BTW)
>>and Polka Parade and no longer on the air
>> >>
>
>Me, my Dad, and my friend Jeff like 'em ok. You
>worked on Welk? Wild!!
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> but i am not entertained by stupid music

I love that quote! :-D

The "common sense" assertion that music's main purpose for existence
is to entertain its audience is very dangerous, because it encourages
(and was partly created by) a capitalist, consumer-based society. If
you've read "A Brave New World," you'll know what I mean: "art" that
is reduced to meaningless sensuality. Today's pop music industry is
not far from that... because in a capitalist society, all that matters
is the bottom line. Sensuality sells, meaning does not.

The power of music, whether it's entertaining me or enlightening me or
whatever, is that it affects my very psychology. In short, the
fundamental purpose of music is to change me, even if it happens to be
entertaining me in the process.

-Chris

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

yes i am starving for "entertainment"
which is why sometimes i have to resort to myself to do so.
At the same time i 'imagine' others like myself starving in this market place
there is no sense i can see in composing unless it is compensatory to what already is out there.
Sometimes though it is to preserve something of worth that would gain by more focus on it.
preventing something to be lost either through others missing it entirely or commonly through its place in history.
I guess ones work could also be supplemental.
But i cannot see making reproductions of the plentiful
but perhaps i just don't understand this as motivation
and just to be clear
this latter category does not apply to anyone
on any of these lists
as far as i can tell

Chris Bryan wrote:

>>but i am not entertained by stupid music
>> >>
>
>I love that quote! :-D
>
>The "common sense" assertion that music's main purpose for existence
>is to entertain its audience is very dangerous, because it encourages
>(and was partly created by) a capitalist, consumer-based society. If
>you've read "A Brave New World," you'll know what I mean: "art" that
>is reduced to meaningless sensuality. Today's pop music industry is
>not far from that... because in a capitalist society, all that matters
>is the bottom line. Sensuality sells, meaning does not.
>
>The power of music, whether it's entertaining me or enlightening me or
>whatever, is that it affects my very psychology. In short, the
>fundamental purpose of music is to change me, even if it happens to be
>entertaining me in the process.
>
>-Chris
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> I remember the sets better than I remember the
>> music (haven't seen it since I was a kid). My
>> grandparents loved it. It was super-popular
>> back in the day.
>
>Those were the days when Lawrence Welk and Liberace had two of the
>highest rated shows on television, both featuring slightly European
>accents and stars beloved of blue-rinse ladies. What does that
>demographic watch these days, I wonder? Are we going to be looking
>at Beatles nostalgia pretty soon?

Who's a blue-rinse lady?

One of the best accordion players in the bay area told me that
accordion music was the most popular music in the US for a good
chunk of time. "Why did it change?" I asked. His answer was
that since the hippie movement, anything associated with white
European culture is uncool.

My grandmother loved Liberace (she was a piano teacher). When
it came out in the 80s that he was gay (he had AIDS IIRC), she
disowned him.

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
wrote:

> The "common sense" assertion that music's main purpose for existence
> is to entertain its audience is very dangerous, because it encourages
> (and was partly created by) a capitalist, consumer-based society.

There's the counter-thesis Thomas Mann presented in 'Faustus', in the
mouth of his protagonist: that German art music in its highest
examples not only reached for, but attained, the realm of transcendent
beauty, founded on the moral and intellectual hights, but reaching the
spiritual. And, this not only fed the good side of the German
character, it also fed the dark side. Mozart, the Germans discovered,
can be played in death camps also.

I don't buy it. I think you can't blame Wagner, and you certainly
can't blame Beethoven.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i don't think he was blaming Mozart either.
written shortly after the war,
in the distant vantage point of L.A.,
i am sure this reflected what many germans were going through,
and possibly continue to do.
And something we too might consider

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
>wrote:
>
> >
>>The "common sense" assertion that music's main purpose for existence
>>is to entertain its audience is very dangerous, because it encourages
>>(and was partly created by) a capitalist, consumer-based society. >> >>
>
>There's the counter-thesis Thomas Mann presented in 'Faustus', in the
>mouth of his protagonist: that German art music in its highest
>examples not only reached for, but attained, the realm of transcendent
>beauty, founded on the moral and intellectual hights, but reaching the
>spiritual. And, this not only fed the good side of the German
>character, it also fed the dark side. Mozart, the Germans discovered,
>can be played in death camps also.
>
>I don't buy it. I think you can't blame Wagner, and you certainly
>can't blame Beethoven.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > I remember the sets better than I remember the
> > music (haven't seen it since I was a kid). My
> > grandparents loved it. It was super-popular
> > back in the day.
>
> Those were the days when Lawrence Welk and Liberace had two
> of the highest rated shows on television, both featuring
> slightly European accents and stars beloved of blue-rinse
> ladies. What does that demographic watch these days, I wonder?
> Are we going to be looking at Beatles nostalgia pretty soon?

Give it another 10 or 15 years. I think we're just now
entering the phase of Elvis nostalgia for the blue-rinse
generation.

The girls who were screaming and fainting over the Beatles
in 1964 are about 55 now.

-monz

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>Those were the days when Lawrence Welk and Liberace had two of the
>>highest rated shows on television, both featuring slightly European
>>accents and stars beloved of blue-rinse ladies. What does that
>>demographic watch these days, I wonder? Are we going to be looking
>>at Beatles nostalgia pretty soon?
>
>Who's a blue-rinse lady?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_rinse

Ah. My grandmother never used anything like that, but I think
the trend has been for younger demographics to dominate the
disposable-income consumer market in the US. I don't think today's
blue-rinsers have much buying power (they still have some political
power, though).

The grands in my family listen to Leonard Cohen (I prefer Welk,
myself) and the Beatles and... I'm not entirely sure yet.

I remember Partch saying something about how the people going to
orchestra concerts were blue-haired his entire life. Ditto my
experience so far (I've been going to classical concerts since
wee age). So maybe the real question is: what were they listening
to when they were young?

-Carl

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> > The "common sense" assertion that music's main purpose for existence
> > is to entertain its audience is very dangerous, because it encourages
> > (and was partly created by) a capitalist, consumer-based society.
>
> There's the counter-thesis Thomas Mann presented in 'Faustus', in the
> mouth of his protagonist: that German art music in its highest
> examples not only reached for, but attained, the realm of transcendent
> beauty, founded on the moral and intellectual hights, but reaching the
> spiritual. And, this not only fed the good side of the German
> character, it also fed the dark side. Mozart, the Germans discovered,
> can be played in death camps also.

I'm sure I'm slightly dull, but I can't find the connection between
these two thoughts :)

IMO the "best" art isn't transcedental, but incarnational. It doesn't
transcend the physical to reach the spiritual, but finds its deepest
spiritual meaning *through* the physcial.

Dang, I apologize (again) for being so off-topic. But if I can redeem
this thread at all, it would be to say that when it comes to tuning,
if the composer's thought is only on the entertainment value (in the
pop world, or "interest" in the academic world), something will always
be lacking. Every aspect of the music has to touch on the creator's
deepest understanding of existence in order to really communicate
something of value. Even with some composers I don't particularly
care for, like Phillip Glass, this feature is evident. Partch is the
most notorious microtonal example, but there are lots of subtler ways
of approaching it as well.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>IMO the "best" art isn't transcedental, but incarnational. It doesn't
>transcend the physical to reach the spiritual, but finds its deepest
>spiritual meaning *through* the physcial.
>
>Dang, I apologize (again) for being so off-topic. But if I can redeem
>this thread at all, it would be to say that when it comes to tuning,
>if the composer's thought is only on the entertainment value (in the
>pop world, or "interest" in the academic world), something will always
>be lacking. Every aspect of the music has to touch on the creator's
>deepest understanding of existence in order to really communicate
>something of value. Even with some composers I don't particularly
>care for, like Phillip Glass, this feature is evident. Partch is the
>most notorious microtonal example, but there are lots of subtler ways
>of approaching it as well.

This has my whole-hearted endorsement!

-Carl

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> >> I remember the sets better than I remember the
> >> music (haven't seen it since I was a kid). My
> >> grandparents loved it. It was super-popular
> >> back in the day.
> >
> >Those were the days when Lawrence Welk and Liberace had two of the
> >highest rated shows on television, both featuring slightly European
> >accents and stars beloved of blue-rinse ladies. What does that
> >demographic watch these days, I wonder? Are we going to be looking
> >at Beatles nostalgia pretty soon?
>
> Who's a blue-rinse lady?
>
> One of the best accordion players in the bay area told me that
> accordion music was the most popular music in the US for a good
> chunk of time. "Why did it change?" I asked. His answer was
> that since the hippie movement, anything associated with white
> European culture is uncool.

Hippie accordion-led music:

http://www.incus.net/

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan
<chrismbryan@g...> wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what is written below,
but being a Christian I can tell you there is such
a thing as spiritual music. Even if one is not a
believer in anything, one has to acknowledge that
praise music, to various gods and goddesses have been
around for a long long time.

The best music is the music that will last forever.

Possible candidate:

Amazing Grace

Excerpt here:

When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Stephen Szpak
_____________________________________________________________
>
> > >> >>
>
> IMO the "best" art isn't transcedental, but incarnational. It
doesn't
> transcend the physical to reach the spiritual, but finds its
deepest
> spiritual meaning *through* the physcial.
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

actually James Hillman wrote quite an interesting article of 'going through' as to beyond which i still have up here
http://anaphoria.com/peaks.PDF
But music has a spiritual source and cannot help but represent what is beyond the senses.
In the sense that , unlike the other arts, it history has been the least 'representational' of the world around us.
stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan ><chrismbryan@g...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure I understand what is written below,
> but being a Christian I can tell you there is such
> a thing as spiritual music. Even if one is not a
> believer in anything, one has to acknowledge that
> praise music, to various gods and goddesses have been > around for a long long time.
>
> The best music is the music that will last forever.
> > Possible candidate:
>
> Amazing Grace
>
> Excerpt here:
>
>
> When we've been there ten thousand years
>Bright shining as the sun,
>We've no less days to sing God's praise
>Than when we've first begun. >
> Stephen Szpak
>_____________________________________________________________
> >
>>IMO the "best" art isn't transcedental, but incarnational. It >> >>
>doesn't
> >
>>transcend the physical to reach the spiritual, but finds its >> >>
>deepest
> >
>>spiritual meaning *through* the physcial.
>>
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

actually he had an excerpted version in one of his other books but it just didn't work for me and i sent years hunting down the full one which i have here.
It should not be understood as being anti religion though.
It is merely his way of differentiating psychology from it, for what he pictures is for the benefit of both.

Recently when i heard Bach performed live on a pipe organ , it became quite apparent that one could not follow the lines, so to speak, with all the reverberation in the church.
But then i realized, maybe i was not the one he intended to hear the lines in the first place. Although , us mortals can , in such situations, feel, the lines going on without necessarily following every development of it, especially past the 'entrances'' of the parts. Recordings has changed this music quite a bit and how and what we get for it. and i dare say what it is we are to listen for.

I guess the point would be the spiritual music is written for 'these others ' to listen to .

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
>
> Kraig
>
> It is a little long. Feel free to post some excerpts though.
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
>
> Stephen Szpak
> >
>>actually James Hillman wrote quite an interesting article >> >>
>of 'going > >
>>through' as to beyond which i still have up here
>>http://anaphoria.com/peaks.PDF
>> >>But music has a spiritual source and cannot help but represent >> >>
>what is > >
>>beyond the senses.
>> >> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
Kraig

"one could not follow the lines"

Do you mean melody ("lines")?

Also:

There is definitly a difference between listening to
others sing praises to God, merely singing a praise song (which
anyone, or even a computer can do) and actually
praising God with a song. I don't think I can really explain
this to a greater extent to anyone not familiar with these
matters.

Science teaches that life, let's go to the max, consciousness,
creates itself under the "right" conditions. How absurd! If this
is true, then even music creates itself, because humanity created
itself and humans create music.

Stephen Szpak

> actually he had an excerpted version in one of his other books but
it
> just didn't work for me and i sent years hunting down the full one
which
> i have here.
> It should not be understood as being anti religion though.
> It is merely his way of differentiating psychology from it, for
what he
> pictures is for the benefit of both.
>
> Recently when i heard Bach performed live on a pipe organ , it
became
> quite apparent that one could not follow the lines, so to speak,
with
> all the reverberation in the church.
> But then i realized, maybe i was not the one he intended to hear
the
> lines in the first place. Although , us mortals can , in such
> situations, feel, the lines going on without necessarily following
every
> development of it, especially past the 'entrances'' of the parts.
> Recordings has changed this music quite a bit and how and what we
get
> for it. and i dare say what it is we are to listen for.
>
> I guess the point would be the spiritual music is written
for 'these
> others ' to listen to .
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

> Recently when i heard Bach performed live on a pipe organ , it became
>quite apparent that one could not follow the lines, so to speak, with
>all the reverberation in the church.
> But then i realized, maybe i was not the one he intended to hear the
>lines in the first place. Although , us mortals can , in such
>situations, feel, the lines going on without necessarily following every
>development of it, especially past the 'entrances'' of the parts.
> Recordings has changed this music quite a bit and how and what we get
>for it. and i dare say what it is we are to listen for.

It's worth noting that baroque organs of the teutonic variety were
more staccato (and smaller) than most instruments built since,
including many used to record Bach. An appropriateish instrument
was used by Anthony Newman on his series of recordings for Vox in
the 70s...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001K25/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001K45/

Not everyone likes Newman, but I guess I'm not everyone. Of these
two volumes, it's hard to recommend one over the other, but I guess
I'd say Volume 1. $6.99 for two discs, who can complain.

I'm sure there are more recent Bach recordings on authentic organs,
but I'm not familiar with them.

That said, it's true what you say that the notes are meant to
swarm together to some extent, and the effect is simply breathtaking
IMO.

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

C and all,

{you wrote...}
>That said, it's true what you say that the notes are meant to swarm >together to some extent, and the effect is simply breathtaking IMO.

I've heard Gabrieli multi-part music done in St. Mark's in Venice, the acoustic space for which the pieces were composed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Gabrielli

Same for choral concerts in a place like King's College Chapel, site of centuries of sacred vocal music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_College_Chapel%2C_Cambridge
http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/chapel/choir/index.html

When you hear the music in it's truest context - context in meaning, context in environment - it becomes a rather overwhelming experience.

Which is good, naturally. :)

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

yes the melodic lines become swarmed over as carl puts it
enough to the point that one can get it in sections, but the effect of the pure texture and what the texture
encase becomes a focal point all its own.
but even his solo music exploit the acoustics in which it was played.

i just returned from playing a solid two hours of shamanistic music from the siberian region from 7 different discs, and one can not be overwhelmed by what the intent of these people bring to the music, that would not be there, or is not there in music without this intent.

stephenszpak wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
> Kraig
>
> "one could not follow the lines"
>
> Do you mean melody ("lines")?
>
> Also:
>
> There is definitly a difference between listening to
> others sing praises to God, merely singing a praise song (which
> anyone, or even a computer can do) and actually
> praising God with a song. I don't think I can really explain > this to a greater extent to anyone not familiar with these
> matters.
>
> Science teaches that life, let's go to the max, consciousness,
> creates itself under the "right" conditions. How absurd! If this
> is true, then even music creates itself, because humanity created
> itself and humans create music.
>
> Stephen Szpak >
> >
> >
>
>
> > > >
>>actually he had an excerpted version in one of his other books but >> >>
>it > >
>>just didn't work for me and i sent years hunting down the full one >> >>
>which > >
>>i have here.
>> It should not be understood as being anti religion though.
>> It is merely his way of differentiating psychology from it, for >> >>
>what he > >
>>pictures is for the benefit of both.
>>
>> Recently when i heard Bach performed live on a pipe organ , it >> >>
>became > >
>>quite apparent that one could not follow the lines, so to speak, >> >>
>with > >
>>all the reverberation in the church.
>> But then i realized, maybe i was not the one he intended to hear >> >>
>the > >
>>lines in the first place. Although , us mortals can , in such >>situations, feel, the lines going on without necessarily following >> >>
>every > >
>>development of it, especially past the 'entrances'' of the parts. >> Recordings has changed this music quite a bit and how and what we >> >>
>get > >
>>for it. and i dare say what it is we are to listen for.
>>
>> I guess the point would be the spiritual music is written >> >>
>for 'these > >
>>others ' to listen to .
>>
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

I once saw newman play live on a bill (5th brandenberg), with loundon wainwright and the original mahavishnu orchestra.
All on capitol was the excuse for the concert.
back when variety was marketing.
no one would think of doing this now.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>Recently when i heard Bach performed live on a pipe organ , it became >>quite apparent that one could not follow the lines, so to speak, with >>all the reverberation in the church.
>>But then i realized, maybe i was not the one he intended to hear the >>lines in the first place. Although , us mortals can , in such >>situations, feel, the lines going on without necessarily following every >>development of it, especially past the 'entrances'' of the parts. >>Recordings has changed this music quite a bit and how and what we get >>for it. and i dare say what it is we are to listen for.
>> >>
>
>It's worth noting that baroque organs of the teutonic variety were
>more staccato (and smaller) than most instruments built since,
>including many used to record Bach. An appropriateish instrument
>was used by Anthony Newman on his series of recordings for Vox in
>the 70s...
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001K25/
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001K45/
>
>Not everyone likes Newman, but I guess I'm not everyone. Of these
>two volumes, it's hard to recommend one over the other, but I guess
>I'd say Volume 1. $6.99 for two discs, who can complain.
>
>I'm sure there are more recent Bach recordings on authentic organs,
>but I'm not familiar with them.
>
>That said, it's true what you say that the notes are meant to
>swarm together to some extent, and the effect is simply breathtaking
>IMO.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Hippie accordion-led music:
>
> And then there's Julz A, someone I've known since he was a wee lad (and
> used to take drum lessons from me):
>
> http://cdbaby.com/cd/julza

I liked the title track - Julz A (Squeeze Rock) - best.
He's stronger rappin than rockin ...

> Not your grandma's accordian.

Unless granny knows how to rap!

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗akjmicro <aaron@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:

> There is definitly a difference between listening to
> others sing praises to God, merely singing a praise song (which
> anyone, or even a computer can do) and actually
> praising God with a song. I don't think I can really explain
> this to a greater extent to anyone not familiar with these
> matters.

It would seem that we couls set up some sort of experiment to settle
this matter....

> Science teaches that life, let's go to the max, consciousness,
> creates itself under the "right" conditions. How absurd!

Why is this absurd? Something had to create itself. You think
'goddidit' perhaps. But then, what is God, and why should you think
that God wouldn't also need a creator?

I put it at the scientific level and say that the evidence tells us
that life started itself in the early earth soup.

> If this
> is true, then even music creates itself, because humanity created
> itself and humans create music.

I like the idea of music creating itself---very poetic. Reminds me of
a beautiful Tolkien myth that the world was sung into being...

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

of course such comment would lead us to metatuning:)

akjmicro wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
> > >
>> There is definitly a difference between listening to
>> others sing praises to God, merely singing a praise song (which
>> anyone, or even a computer can do) and actually
>> praising God with a song. I don't think I can really explain >> this to a greater extent to anyone not familiar with these
>> matters.
>> >>
>
>It would seem that we couls set up some sort of experiment to settle
>this matter....
>
> >
>> Science teaches that life, let's go to the max, consciousness,
>> creates itself under the "right" conditions. How absurd! >> >>
>
>Why is this absurd? Something had to create itself. You think
>'goddidit' perhaps. But then, what is God, and why should you think
>that God wouldn't also need a creator?
>
>I put it at the scientific level and say that the evidence tells us
>that life started itself in the early earth soup.
>
> >
>>If this
>>is true, then even music creates itself, because humanity created
>>itself and humans create music.
>> >>
>
>I like the idea of music creating itself---very poetic. Reminds me of
>a beautiful Tolkien myth that the world was sung into being...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
_________________________________________________________
What is metatuning?

S. Szpak
>
> of course such comment would lead us to metatuning:)

_________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> akjmicro wrote:
>
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> ><stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> There is definitly a difference between listening to
> >> others sing praises to God, merely singing a praise song (which
> >> anyone, or even a computer can do) and actually
> >> praising God with a song. I don't think I can really explain
> >> this to a greater extent to anyone not familiar with these
> >> matters.
> >>
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "akjmicro" <aaron@a...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> <stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:
>
> > There is definitly a difference between listening to
> > others sing praises to God, merely singing a praise song (which
> > anyone, or even a computer can do) and actually
> > praising God with a song. I don't think I can really explain
> > this to a greater extent to anyone not familiar with these
> > matters.
>
> It would seem that we couls set up some sort of experiment to
settle
> this matter....
>

+++++++++++ Really? A experiment? You would have to believe
there is a God to actually praise God.

> > Science teaches that life, let's go to the max, consciousness,
> > creates itself under the "right" conditions. How absurd!
>
> Why is this absurd? Something had to create itself. You think
> 'goddidit' perhaps. But then, what is God, and why should you think
> that God wouldn't also need a creator?

++++++++++If this were true one would have to ask where the first
god came from to create the second.
>
> I put it at the scientific level and say that the evidence tells us
> that life started itself in the early earth soup.

++++++++++The manufacture of a personal computer, that is
every single part, from chips to the formula for
the plastic in the keys,to a understanding of acoustics
for the speakers to work, etc. etc requires documentation.
The scientific explanation for life beginning on earth is
usually reduced to 2 or 3 sentences.

>
> > If this
> > is true, then even music creates itself, because humanity created
> > itself and humans create music.
>
> I like the idea of music creating itself---very poetic. Reminds me
of
> a beautiful Tolkien myth that the world was sung into being...

++++++++++Who did the singing?

I haven't been here too long ( in my latest time on the
list ) but I assume this should continue off-board?????

Regards,

Stephen Szpak