start

I studied composition and jazz and felt unsatisfied with 12 semitones almost from the start in infancy. I'm now 64, and perforce retired, after 25 years of playing, composing and teaching, and had a marvellous time. I'm desperate to do microtonal compositions, and have downloaded a program called Tonescape studio alpha, but I'm not very digitally knowkedgeable, and am finding difficulty with the nomenclature of the program, so I don't know what it's talking about.
Can anybody help me get started with that or another program please?
I'm also messing about with the quarter tones in Sibelius, and having fun.
thanks
Barbara

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "barbarabarron85" <barbarabarron85@...> wrote:

> Can anybody help me get started with that or another program please?
> I'm also messing about with the quarter tones in Sibelius, and having fun.

If Sibelius had a plugin or menu item which would produce correctly tuned meantone files from a standard score that would be the easiest avenue into microtonality, but I don't think it does. One can work with "seq" files of a program called Scala instead, but that would not involve a standard score. I've been working recently with a program called microcsound which has a simpler score structure, but there's a learning curve with the ubergeekiness of Csound.

Here's a question for anyone who cares to answer: what's the easiest way to convert a standard score into a meantone version? The best approach I know of I wouldn't call very easy.

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 5:45 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "barbarabarron85" <barbarabarron85@...> wrote:
>
> > Can anybody help me get started with that or another program please?
> > I'm also messing about with the quarter tones in Sibelius, and having fun.
>
> If Sibelius had a plugin or menu item which would produce correctly tuned meantone files from a standard score that would be the easiest avenue into microtonality, but I don't think it does. One can work with "seq" files of a program called Scala instead, but that would not involve a standard score. I've been working recently with a program called microcsound which has a simpler score structure, but there's a learning curve with the ubergeekiness of Csound.
>
> Here's a question for anyone who cares to answer: what's the easiest way to convert a standard score into a meantone version? The best approach I know of I wouldn't call very easy.

What do you mean by "meantone version?" Standard scores are already in
meantone versions, aren't they?

-Mike

Hi Barbara,

I'm new to all of this, too, having joined the list in October or so. I currently use LilyPond or MuseScore to create MIDI files, Scala to choose tunings, and Timidity++ to render the scores to MP3s using sound fonts. All four of those programs are free to use, and decent free soundfonts aren't hard to come by.

If you're not very digitally knowledgeable, MuseScore (a graphical music editor) is probably better for your purposes than LilyPond (a text-based musical language).

The advantage of using something like MuseScore to create MIDI files is that some aspects of it (e.g., rhythm) is easy to understand. If you stick to 12-note scales, it's only a little mind-bending to realize that the C-G interval is (say) 744 cents instead of 700. It's much more mind-bending to use more than 12 notes in a scale (e.g., A below middle C is 440 Hz, and the A above that is only 816 cents higher, and you don't hit the octave until you get to E). I tend to stick to 12-note scales for that reason, but there are an awful lot of interesting 12-note scales out there. You can also use fewer than 12 notes by doing things like setting B and Bb to the same pitch.

To listen to what you wrote, you'd need to get Timidity set up for the first time, but after that it's not hard to run a command to do the rendering for you. You can also let Scala retune the MIDI file for you. (I hate the sound of MIDI on my computer, though.) It's a bit of a nuisance to have to process the MIDI file each time, either by retuning it in Scala or running it through Timidity, but I think it's worth it.

Switching streams entirely: Another alternative is to get yourself a microtonal instrument or two. Several people on the list have guitars in 17, 19, or other equal divisions of the octave (EDOs) besides 12. Others have retunable keyboards. If you're handy, you might build your own instrument -- Chris Vaisvil has examples on his website, chrisvaisvil.com. I'd love to get a real instrument, especially because nothing beats noodling around on a guitar or keyboard to get instant gratification, but I haven't yet made the investment.

Other people may have yet other ideas, but these are things that worked for me. Best of luck to you.

Oh, yes, and join the makingmicromusic list if you haven't already.

Regards,
Jake

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> What do you mean by "meantone version?" Standard scores are already in
> meantone versions, aren't they?

Not really, because if you ask a program like Sibelius or Finale or NoteWorthy to play something, it will play it in 12edo. If you could get them to produce, for example, a pitch-bended midi file in 31edo with no friggin', rotten, despicable 12edo enharmonic equivalences you could use that standard score to write microtonal music.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Barbara,
>
> I'm new to all of this, too, having joined the list in October or so. I
> currently use LilyPond or MuseScore to create MIDI files, Scala to
> choose tunings, and Timidity++ to render the scores to MP3s using sound
> fonts.

Does either Musescore or LilyPond allow more than 12 notes in an octave?

Does anyone here use MicroABC (
http://hudsonlacerda.webs.com/abc/microabc-about.html) for anything? (I see
the developer was discussing it on-list in 2006.)

Dan N

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:18 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Barbara,
> >
> > I'm new to all of this, too, having joined the list in October or so. I
> > currently use LilyPond or MuseScore to create MIDI files, Scala to
> > choose tunings, and Timidity++ to render the scores to MP3s using sound
> > fonts.
>
> Does either Musescore or LilyPond allow more than 12 notes in an octave?

Lilypond does, I know. Graham always talks about it. Maybe he can weigh in more.

But maybe what people really want to check out is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus2

It was developed right here on the tuning list, and also on
microtools, looks like it might be the best notation editor hands
down, and nobody knows about it. Hm...

-Mike

Mike B wrote:

>> What do you mean by "meantone version?" Standard scores are already in
>> meantone versions, aren't they?

Gene replied:

> Not really, because if you ask a program like Sibelius or Finale or
> NoteWorthy to play something, it will play it in 12edo. If you could
> get them to produce, for example, a pitch-bended midi file in 31edo
> with no friggin', rotten, despicable 12edo enharmonic equivalences you
> could use that standard score to write microtonal music.

Gene, unless I'm missing something, you could select a 31 EDO subset
in Scala and render a standard score in a proper meantone.

Gene also asked:

> Does either Musescore or LilyPond allow more than 12 notes in an octave?

Not as such. If you want to do (say, to keep it simple) 24 EDO, then
you'd have to think of C0 (say) as 0 cents, C#0 as 50 cents,..., B0
as 550 cents, C1 as 600 cents,..., and C2 as 1200 cents. A C chord
C-E-G would be written as C-G#-D. Not ideal, hence the "mind-bending"
comment, but if you're willing to do it, Timidity will use the tuning
table to tune it correctly.

Regards,
Jake

On 5/25/11, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Barbara,
>>
>> I'm new to all of this, too, having joined the list in October or so. I
>> currently use LilyPond or MuseScore to create MIDI files, Scala to
>> choose tunings, and Timidity++ to render the scores to MP3s using sound
>> fonts.
>
> Does either Musescore or LilyPond allow more than 12 notes in an octave?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:

> Gene, unless I'm missing something, you could select a 31 EDO subset
> in Scala and render a standard score in a proper meantone.

If you convert the standard score to a Scala seq file using, for instance, P31 notation you can certainly make a meantone version of the standard score very easily. But how do you convert the standard score to a seq file?

Me:
> > Gene, unless I'm missing something, you could select a 31 EDO subset
> > in Scala and render a standard score in a proper meantone.

Gene:
> If you convert the standard score to a Scala seq file using, for instance,
> P31 notation you can certainly make a meantone version of the standard
> score very easily. But how do you convert the standard score to a seq file?

As always, when you ask a question, I worry that you're so far past me that I'm completely missing your point. Bear with me...

When someone in the 17th century wrote the notes C D E F G in a musical manuscript, he was probably assuming a 1/4-comma meantone tuning, not 12 EDO; in 1/4-comma meantone with C as the base note, he would have expected these notes to sound like this scale: 0.0 - 193.2 - 386.3 - 503.4 - 696.6 cents.

(Those notes are according to Wikipedia, and are slightly different from 31 EDO. Also, for some reason people write about 1/4-comma meantone with D as the base note a lot; I'm not sure why that is, but let's imagine that C is the base for now.)

So if I create a MIDI file of that person's manuscript using the standard notes C D E F G, and use Scala to create a tuning table for Timidity that includes your 31-EDO subset, then Timidity will render C D E F G as 0 - 193.5 - 387.1 - 503.2 - 696.8 cents.

What am I missing here? :)

Thanks,
Jake

Gene:
> > Does either Musescore or LilyPond allow more than 12 notes in an octave?

Mike B:
> Lilypond does, I know. Graham always talks about it. Maybe he can weigh in more.

Interesting. It's not in the LilyPond doc I have, but you can find it if you look around farther. It looks like it could pitch-bend the MIDI files LilyPond creates, but since all I see is information about quartertones or 1/9 tones, I'm not sure how / whether it supports arbitrary tunings.

http://launch.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/tuning/message/84871
http://lilypond.web.fc2.com/v2.13.13/Documentation/notation/what-goes-into-the-midi-output_003f.html "Rendering needs a player that supports pitch bend"
http://lilypond.web.fc2.com/v2.13.13/Documentation/notation/writing-pitches.html#Note-names-in-other-languages
http://lilypond.web.fc2.com/v2.13.13/Documentation/notation/writing-pitches.html#Non_002dWestern-note-names-and-accidentals

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:

> Does anyone here use MicroABC (
> http://hudsonlacerda.webs.com/abc/microabc-about.html) for anything? (I
> see the developer was discussing it on-list in 2006.)
> Dan N
>

Since I'm already littering this list with questions about notation, can I
also ask where I'd find information on Keenan & Secor's notation?
(referenced at http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/temp-porcupine.html and
/tuning/topicId_96123.html#96261)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:

> So if I create a MIDI file of that person's manuscript using the
> standard notes C D E F G, and use Scala to create a tuning table for
> Timidity that includes your 31-EDO subset, then Timidity will render C D
> E F G as 0 - 193.5 - 387.1 - 503.2 - 696.8 cents.
>
> What am I missing here? :)

When you retune the midi file, how do you know if you are supposed to tune a note as G# or Ab?

How would a harpsichordist known whether to play a G# or an Ab?

On 5/25/11, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
>
>> So if I create a MIDI file of that person's manuscript using the
>> standard notes C D E F G, and use Scala to create a tuning table for
>> Timidity that includes your 31-EDO subset, then Timidity will render C D
>> E F G as 0 - 193.5 - 387.1 - 503.2 - 696.8 cents.
>>
>> What am I missing here? :)
>
> When you retune the midi file, how do you know if you are supposed to tune a
> note as G# or Ab?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
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> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
>
> How would a harpsichordist known whether to play a G# or an Ab?

A harpsichordist would have the key tuned to either G# or Ab, as they
would have been different things. And music for harpsichord written
for strict quarter-comma meantone tuning would have been careful to
avoid chords like E-Ab-B.

Either way, the practical limitations of a harpsichord shouldn't
concern us if our goal is to explore the ambient theoretical space of
quarter-comma meantone, which I'll just call 31-equal from now on.

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> A harpsichordist would have the key tuned to either G# or Ab, as they
> would have been different things. And music for harpsichord written
> for strict quarter-comma meantone tuning would have been careful to
> avoid chords like E-Ab-B.
>
> Either way, the practical limitations of a harpsichord shouldn't
> concern us if our goal is to explore the ambient theoretical space of
> quarter-comma meantone, which I'll just call 31-equal from now on.

Exactly, and rather than avoiding chords like E-Ab-B, to explore microtonality by this method we would revel in them.

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 1:06 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > A harpsichordist would have the key tuned to either G# or Ab, as they
> > would have been different things. And music for harpsichord written
> > for strict quarter-comma meantone tuning would have been careful to
> > avoid chords like E-Ab-B.
> >
> > Either way, the practical limitations of a harpsichord shouldn't
> > concern us if our goal is to explore the ambient theoretical space of
> > quarter-comma meantone, which I'll just call 31-equal from now on.
>
> Exactly, and rather than avoiding chords like E-Ab-B, to explore microtonality by this method we would revel in them.

Preferably if 91/90 is vanishing (nudge nudge nudge).

Also, I again highly recommend you check out Mus2, which I linked to
in my last post, it looks like it might be The Greatest Ever Notation
Editor.

-Mike

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 1:06 AM, genewardsmith
> <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> >
> > > A harpsichordist would have the key tuned to either G# or Ab, as they
> > > would have been different things. And music for harpsichord written
> > > for strict quarter-comma meantone tuning would have been careful to
> > > avoid chords like E-Ab-B.
> > >
> > > Either way, the practical limitations of a harpsichord shouldn't
> > > concern us if our goal is to explore the ambient theoretical space of
> > > quarter-comma meantone, which I'll just call 31-equal from now on.
> >
> > Exactly, and rather than avoiding chords like E-Ab-B, to explore
> microtonality by this method we would revel in them.
>
> Preferably if 91/90 is vanishing (nudge nudge nudge).
>
> Also, I again highly recommend you check out Mus2, which I linked to
> in my last post, it looks like it might be The Greatest Ever Notation
> Editor.
>
> -Mike
>

But as someone *cough*Mar**hrrm*cel*gchhh* happened to mention at the same
time you posted about Mus2, Mike, it doesn't support MIDI-in yet (he said
"audio", but I think that's what he meant), I think, if that's any concern.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> > Exactly, and rather than avoiding chords like E-Ab-B, to explore microtonality by this method we would revel in them.
>
> Preferably if 91/90 is vanishing (nudge nudge nudge).

The EZ introduction to microtonality plan would get to things like 46 equal only after meantone was mastered. Still, we could use the Pythagorean, fifth-based approach to notation with leapday, and leapday is a way of introducing 91/90.

On May 26, 2011, at 3:22 AM, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> > Exactly, and rather than avoiding chords like E-Ab-B, to explore
microtonality by this method we would revel in them.
>
> Preferably if 91/90 is vanishing (nudge nudge nudge).

The EZ introduction to microtonality plan would get to things like 46 equal
only after meantone was mastered. Still, we could use the Pythagorean,
fifth-based approach to notation with leapday, and leapday is a way of
introducing 91/90.

Hm - not sure about leapday, never tried it. I guess 91/90 is a crappy comma
to toss in with 81/80, as they tend to drag the fifth in opposite
directions. 105/104 would probably be better.

If the goal is higher-limit meantone, then I strongly suggest mohajira,
which is how most people tend to think anyways.

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> The EZ introduction to microtonality plan would get to things like 46 equal only after meantone was mastered. Still, we could use the Pythagorean, fifth-based approach to notation with leapday, and leapday is a way of introducing 91/90.

I'm not sure the world is ready for C-C###-G-G## as a notation for an otonal tetrad, though. Something like Scala's E46 would presumably be the choice du jour.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> If Sibelius had a plugin or menu item which would produce correctly tuned meantone files from a standard score that would be the easiest avenue into microtonality, but I don't think it does.

If you're willing to do a bit of number crunching, Sibelius does recognize a MIDI scripting language, which includes the MIDI command for pitch bending. I don't use it all that much because my microtonal goals do not really include creating computer playbacks; I prefer live performances. Thus, I don't remember the specific command to pitch bend in Sibelius right off hand. But I can look it up in some files I created a little while ago, and I'm sure that you can get the proper information by contacting Sibelius support.

It won't be practical in a piano part; the pitch bending bends every pitch in a given staff. In order to get individual notes played at the same time away from 12-ET, you will need to write in separate staffs for each musical line. The disadvantage of doing this method is the high amount of busywork that it requires to write in all the pitch bends. The advantage is that you can essentially have as many pitches per octave as you desire. Using Scala, in Sibelius you can export a MIDI file that Scala can thus retune, but this is a bit limited because Scala can only map the MIDI file onto what is essentially a retuning of a keyboard layout. I prefer to write in just intonation, which allows a variable amount of pitches per octave (and even some severely unevenly distributed pitch sets) which simply doesn't work on keyboard setups unless I want to make some very unsatisfactory compromises like notation, skipping large segments of a scale, or severely limiting my choice of notes.

There are many ways to approach microtonality, and there is not even universal agreement as to what "microtonality" is.

I'd suggest to someone who already has quartertones up and running to explore the ancient Greek tetrachords in all their permutations and junctions, for the genera can be tuned nicely enough with quartertones, and this exploration is great for casting off the burden of the false dichotomy of major/minor, the artificial ordera of diatonic scales, "tonality" and so on.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> The EZ introduction to microtonality plan would get to things like 46 equal only after meantone was mastered. Still, we could use the Pythagorean, fifth-based approach to notation with leapday, and leapday is a way of introducing 91/90.
>

Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:

> Since I'm already littering this list with questions
> about notation, can I also ask where I'd find information
> on Keenan & Secor's notation? (referenced at
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/temp-porcupine.html and
> /tuning/topicId_96123.html#96261)

http://sagittal.org/

Graham

Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:

> Interesting. It's not in the LilyPond doc I have, but you
> can find it if you look around farther. It looks like it
> could pitch-bend the MIDI files LilyPond creates, but
> since all I see is information about quartertones or 1/9
> tones, I'm not sure how / whether it supports arbitrary
> tunings.

For regular tunings of conventional notation (covering
meantone, mohajira, Pythagorean, etc) you need this file:

http://x31eq.com/regular.ly

Then you find something like

\include "english.ly"

at the top of the file and change it to

\include "english.ly"
tuning = #31
pitchnames = \pitchnamesEnglish
\include "regular.ly"

to give 31-equal with half-sharps. If you use a different
language to English, you need to find what the pitchnames
are called in that file. If you use the default names, you
need to make them explicit as Dutch. (I think they're
Dutch.)

There are some other details that should be in the LilyPond
documentation. Because of the pitch bends, each voice
needs to be in an independent channel. If you have
multiple voices to a staff, you need to do this:

\score {
\midi{
\context {
\Staff
\remove "Staff_performer"
}
\context {
\Voice
\consists "Staff_performer"
}
}
}

There are ways of getting the score to display chords and
the MIDI to work properly. For the simple setup, it's
best to avoid chords.

For more advanced tuning, you can check the code for Tripod
notation:

http://x31eq.com/magic/tripod-code.zip

Graham

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> If the goal is higher-limit meantone, then I strongly suggest mohajira,
> which is how most people tend to think anyways.

That's a plan--one could make use of the quarter-tone accidental.

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:

>
>
> Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:
>
> > Since I'm already littering this list with questions
> > about notation, can I also ask where I'd find information
> > on Keenan & Secor's notation? (referenced at
> > http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/temp-porcupine.html and
> > /tuning/topicId_96123.html#96261)
>
> http://sagittal.org/
>
> Graham
>

Oh, so that's saggital, thank you. Apparently the site isn't working
presently.

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:

> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:
>>
>> > Since I'm already littering this list with questions
>> > about notation, can I also ask where I'd find information
>> > on Keenan & Secor's notation? (referenced at
>> > http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/temp-porcupine.html and
>> > /tuning/topicId_96123.html#96261)
>>
>> http://sagittal.org/
>>
>> Graham
>>
>
> Oh, so that's saggital, thank you. Apparently the site isn't working
> presently.
>
>
(*Just BTW: I misspelled "sagittal" in my reply, but that isn't the reason
the site didn't display.)

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:32 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > If the goal is higher-limit meantone, then I strongly suggest mohajira,
> > which is how most people tend to think anyways.
>
> That's a plan--one could make use of the quarter-tone accidental.

Yeah. Mohajira gets no love because, technically, it splits the
generator in half, but it's a better and more intuitive 11-limit
extension of meantone than any of the other ones I've seen. So you
just use the every-other-generator MOS of mohajira, big deal.

Besides, as I like to keep saying - we keep exploring this notion of
chromatic = one level MOS above albitonic, but who says that's the
only way to go? Let's say you threw a 17-limit meantone extension in
that just so happens to split the period in half (Injera, I guess).
Why not just make the albitonic scale be the normal meantone[7] setup,
be the albitonic scale, with chromatic notes coming from this
alternate 17-limit universe a half-octave away?

Still not here,
Mike

Mike:

> Yeah. Mohajira gets no love because, technically, it splits the
> generator in half, but it's a better and more intuitive 11-limit
> extension of meantone than any of the other ones I've seen. So you
> just use the every-other-generator MOS of mohajira, big deal.
>
> Besides, as I like to keep saying - we keep exploring this notion of
> chromatic = one level MOS above albitonic, but who says that's the
> only way to go? Let's say you threw a 17-limit meantone extension in
> that just so happens to split the period in half (Injera, I guess).
> Why not just make the albitonic scale be the normal meantone[7] setup,
> be the albitonic scale, with chromatic notes coming from this
> alternate 17-limit universe a half-octave away?
>

I like that idea. I've tended to do something similar lately, but without
any decent theoretical reasoning like you give.
Dan N

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Since I'm already littering this list with questions
> >> > about notation, can I also ask where I'd find information
> >> > on Keenan & Secor's notation? (referenced at
> >> > http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/temp-porcupine.html and
> >> > /tuning/topicId_96123.html#96261)
> >>
> >> http://sagittal.org/
> >>
> >> Graham
> >>
> >
> > Oh, so that's saggital, thank you. Apparently the site isn't working
> > presently.
> >
> >
> (*Just BTW: I misspelled "sagittal" in my reply, but that isn't the reason
> the site didn't display.)

There seems to be a problem with some ISP's whereby the site is blocked, e.g., I can access it from home without any problem, but not from work.

However, this link should work:
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/

--George

Hi Barbara,

As you can probably tell, this is a major geek-out list.
Welcome anyway! Hope you find it stimulating.

You might want to contact Joe Monzo about Tonescape.
He's the co-creator of the program and he might be able
to walk you through your difficulty. He reads this
list occasionally but can also be reached directly by
e-mail at monzojoe at gmail dot com. He's also a music
teacher himself.

Gene already mentioned Scala, which is free
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/
It's not as ambitious as Tonescape. There are three
main ways to make music with it:
1. Play alternative scales with the on-screen keyboard
and your mouse. Not very musical but lets you quickly try
new tunings.
2. Play alternative scales with your existing MIDI
keyboard. You'll need a MIDI input for your computer for
this. Also this approach can suffer from "latency", where
there's a delay between touching a key and hearing the note.
Using a dedicated retunable synthesizer can overcome this,
but then Scala isn't strictly necessary.
3. Retune MIDI files, or produce MIDI files using the
Scala score format. Gene mentioned the score format,
which is a plain text scripting language that Scala can
render into MIDI.

There are some other tools around, but as you can probably
tell they are nowhere near what musicians normally expect
from their instruments. It's the major roadblock for
alternative tunings but progress is slowly being made.

Best, -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "barbarabarron85" <barbarabarron85@...> wrote:
>
> I studied composition and jazz and felt unsatisfied with
> 12 semitones almost from the start in infancy. I'm now 64,
> and perforce retired, after 25 years of playing, composing
> and teaching, and had a marvellous time. I'm desperate to
> do microtonal compositions, and have downloaded a program
> called Tonescape studio alpha, but I'm not very digitally
> knowkedgeable, and am finding difficulty with the
> nomenclature of the program, so I don't know what it's
> talking about.
> Can anybody help me get started with that or another program
> please? I'm also messing about with the quarter tones in
> Sibelius, and having fun.
> thanks
> Barbara

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Barbara,
>
> As you can probably tell, this is a major geek-out list.
> Welcome anyway! Hope you find it stimulating.
>
> You might want to contact Joe Monzo about Tonescape.
> He's the co-creator of the program and he might be able
> to walk you through your difficulty. He reads this
> list occasionally but can also be reached directly by
> e-mail at monzojoe at gmail dot com. He's also a music
> teacher himself.
>
> Gene already mentioned Scala, which is free
> http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/
> It's not as ambitious as Tonescape. There are three
> main ways to make music with it:
> 1. Play alternative scales with the on-screen keyboard
> and your mouse. Not very musical but lets you quickly try
> new tunings.
> 2. Play alternative scales with your existing MIDI
> keyboard. You'll need a MIDI input for your computer for
> this. Also this approach can suffer from "latency", where
> there's a delay between touching a key and hearing the note.
> Using a dedicated retunable synthesizer can overcome this,
> but then Scala isn't strictly necessary.
> 3. Retune MIDI files, or produce MIDI files using the
> Scala score format. Gene mentioned the score format,
> which is a plain text scripting language that Scala can
> render into MIDI.
>
> There are some other tools around, but as you can probably
> tell they are nowhere near what musicians normally expect
> from their instruments. It's the major roadblock for
> alternative tunings but progress is slowly being made.
>
> Best, -Carl
>

Just BTW, DanNielsen/Fife.exe (Win32) now reads microABC notation using
Hudson Lacerda's programs.

Someone please try it out and let me know if it works on their computer.

Hi Barbra,

I ignore having exact notation in exchange for having exact renderings of my
microtonal music.

What this means in a practical sense is that I write a score in 12 notes per
octave but have the "virtual instrument" interpret the score in a different
tuning system.

There are free, and inexpensive, to costly virtual instruments that allow
practically any modern scoring program to generate microtonal music.

I use Sibelius and Sonar for scoring music. Sonar is crude compared to
Sibelius for scoring work but is far more flexible in handling virtual
instruments.

My favorite microtonal virtual instruments at this time are:

Garrritan Personal Orchestra, Jazz and Big Band, and Concert and Marching
Band (takes scala files)
Pianoteq (takes scala files)
Kontakt
Zeta+ (takes scala files)

My work flow in something like Sibelius for a piano piece would be to start
a new score and load the pianoteq configuration. Then access pianoteq and
load a tuning from my tuning library or one a copied from this list. A scala
file is nothing more than a text file that is formatted in a special but
reasonable manner. Then I save all of that and now when I enter notes on the
Sibelius score I see 12 equal but hear the microtonal equivalent.

If this sounds like something you'd like more information on feel free to
email me direct.

I also have some information on www.chrisvaisvil.com - search under
"technique"

Chris

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:01 PM, barbarabarron85
<barbarabarron85@...>wrote:

>
>
> I studied composition and jazz and felt unsatisfied with 12 semitones
> almost from the start in infancy. I'm now 64, and perforce retired, after 25
> years of playing, composing and teaching, and had a marvellous time. I'm
> desperate to do microtonal compositions, and have downloaded a program
> called Tonescape studio alpha, but I'm not very digitally knowkedgeable, and
> am finding difficulty with the nomenclature of the program, so I don't know
> what it's talking about.
> Can anybody help me get started with that or another program please?
> I'm also messing about with the quarter tones in Sibelius, and having fun.
> thanks
> Barbara
>

Hi Barbara and Daniel,

I posted a few responses to Barbara on the Tonescape Den-Haag
Yahoo group:

/tonescape_denhaag/

and also tried sending her a personal response via the
Yahoo web interface, but haven't yet gotten any reply.

(Sorry it took me so long to answer ... i'm very busy
these days raising little kids.)

Anyway, i'm not around here much lately but i _can_ be
reached, and am always ready to help anyone use Tonescape.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com/tonescape.aspx
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Nielsen <nielsed@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Barbara,
> >
> > As you can probably tell, this is a major geek-out list.
> > Welcome anyway! Hope you find it stimulating.
> >
> > You might want to contact Joe Monzo about Tonescape.
> > He's the co-creator of the program and he might be able
> > to walk you through your difficulty. He reads this
> > list occasionally but can also be reached directly by
> > e-mail at monzojoe at gmail dot com. He's also a music
> > teacher himself.
> >
> > Gene already mentioned Scala, which is free
> > http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/
> > It's not as ambitious as Tonescape. There are three
> > main ways to make music with it:
> > 1. Play alternative scales with the on-screen keyboard
> > and your mouse. Not very musical but lets you quickly try
> > new tunings.
> > 2. Play alternative scales with your existing MIDI
> > keyboard. You'll need a MIDI input for your computer for
> > this. Also this approach can suffer from "latency", where
> > there's a delay between touching a key and hearing the note.
> > Using a dedicated retunable synthesizer can overcome this,
> > but then Scala isn't strictly necessary.
> > 3. Retune MIDI files, or produce MIDI files using the
> > Scala score format. Gene mentioned the score format,
> > which is a plain text scripting language that Scala can
> > render into MIDI.
> >
> > There are some other tools around, but as you can probably
> > tell they are nowhere near what musicians normally expect
> > from their instruments. It's the major roadblock for
> > alternative tunings but progress is slowly being made.
> >
> > Best, -Carl
> >
>
> Just BTW, DanNielsen/Fife.exe (Win32) now reads microABC notation using
> Hudson Lacerda's programs.
>
> Someone please try it out and let me know if it works on their computer.
>