Re: [tuning] I am sitting in a room [communications advances]

gainst the "experimental" failures of
> the 60's, we have only to loosen the borders that separate us from our neighbors.

What experimental failures?
AMM was not a failure but an assertion that every noise has a note
an extenuation of Cage
The room is reduced to the common residuals as in Lucier's famous piece.
and Everything we do becomes melodic
a pagano paraphrase of Cwolf to Jcage

Failures are only experiments with unexpected results :-)
Cheers
PaganO

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> Kraig Grady wrote, TD 630:
>
> > It seems "progress" in music
> > at this point is not so much in a continued "evolution", but in a "widening" in the
> > recognition of the human musical compass already here. Against the "experimental" failures of
> > the 60's, we have only to loosen the borders that separate us from our neighbors.
> > -- Kraig Grady
>
> It seems to me that, with the Internet, and the closing in of the world
> into practically one little room, such "synthesis" is inevitable. Look
> at right here on the tuning list... we have Europeans we correspond with
> every day, and people all over the country in the US. It's practically
> like we're all here in a little room discussing tuning. Well, I didn't
> say the room was THAT little!!
>
> __________ _____ ___ __ _
> Joseph Pehrson
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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ppagano@bellsouth.net wrote:

> gainst the "experimental" failures of
> > the 60's, we have only to loosen the borders that separate us from our neighbors.
>
> What experimental failures?

we have had to abandon most of these "innovations" because they lead us nowhere. They gave a
material that was quickly exhausted

> AMM was not a failure but an assertion that every noise has a note

Does it? i thought it had quite a few notes, and if i sample it i notice that i have to make an even
larger pitch change to hear any change. My usable material becomes less not more. I have their
recording "newfoundland" I consider it there best. I don't find i really need to own more than one
as not much happens different in syntax in any of the others. Free improv has failed to produce
freedom. it all sounds so similar due the music resulting from the physical habits of the players.
In LA. that is all there is. Why? because it is the easiest thing to do with the least amount of
prep, and considering there is no real money around for such things, no one can "afford" to infest
more thought in such things! As a listener i know what is going to happen as soon as they take there
axes out of the cases. Am i surprised, maybe mildly at most, in the mean while and hour has gone by.

>
> an extenuation of Cage
> The room is reduced to the common residuals as in Lucier's famous piece.

I saw this piece done live about a year ago. seeing it live i noticed that the resultant effect was
not the resonant frequencies of the room but the artifact of the mike placement. a lack of this
understanding by the composer makes me classify this as a failure. that you end up with some
resonance at all might be interesting , but in the long run i find kind of empty. Scientific
curiosities or "cleverness" doesn't make something good music for me. If that is all you need , I
envy you cause I wish I could satisfied with so little. On the other hand i find Cage still
interesting. Possibly because the I ching is structured in ways beyond our logic. Cage- no one since
plato probably knows what the best "questions" to ask. These questions or choice determines
everything in directions that free improv to my ear never gets to. His music does not resemble Free
Improv.

> and Everything we do becomes melodic

Then why try to avoid it!

>
> Cheers
> PaganO
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig:

_I am sitting in a room_ really does end up articulating the resonant frequencies of the room in which it was recorded (in the process, erasing the imperfections in his speech). Mic and loudspeaker _placement_ have actually only a limited effect on the end product, while the _choice_ of mic and speaker (for their response characteristics) are critical. In general, live performances do not work well and Lucier generally tries to discourage them (just to begin with, the performer should be in a different room from the audience, creating large logistical problems).

What's really amazing is that it is the experimental repertoire from the sixties and seventies that has survived, not the mainstream and academic genres. _In C_, _Piano Phase_, _I am sitting in a room_, _The Wolfman_: they all continue to be played and influence current music-making in vital ways. On the other hand, consider any of the Pulitzer Prize winners in music composition from the past 50 years -- those awards are, as Richard Winslow put it, "passports to oblivion".

DJW
----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady

an extenuation of Cage
The room is reduced to the common residuals as in Lucier's famous piece.
I saw this piece done live about a year ago. seeing it live i noticed that the resultant effect was not the resonant frequencies of the room but the artifact of the mike placement. a lack of this understanding by the composer makes me classify this as a failure. that you end up with some resonance at all might be interesting , but in the long run i find kind of empty.

Well while not a Rabid AMM fan i will agree with you on New foundland
==but sometimes the theories applied to a music as in the work of Cage,
Cardew, Provost and Rowe etc...are more intersteing then the
execution....but as to the "freedom" offered by improv has it's
up side and downside
UP===========sometimes it's not what you were looking for it's what you
find.
DOWN========"musicians" tend to act foolish when given freedom
"our problems have become social not musical"................
I experienced this in sveral "free" improv sessions when folks were more
intersted in what particular chemical was konking their beanies then a
synaethesia of sound.
I don't try to avoid melody
i am just redefining what it means.
P

Kraig Grady wrote:

>
>
> ppagano@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>> gainst the "experimental" failures of
>> > the 60's, we have only to loosen the borders that separate us from
>> our neighbors.
>>
>> What experimental failures?
>
> we have had to abandon most of these "innovations" because they lead
> us nowhere. They gave a material that was quickly exhausted
>
>> AMM was not a failure but an assertion that every noise has a note
>
> Does it? i thought it had quite a few notes, and if i sample it i
> notice that i have to make an even larger pitch change to hear any
> change. My usable material becomes less not more. I have their
> recording "newfoundland" I consider it there best. I don't find i
> really need to own more than one as not much happens different in
> syntax in any of the others. Free improv has failed to produce
> freedom. it all sounds so similar due the music resulting from the
> physical habits of the players. In LA. that is all there is. Why?
> because it is the easiest thing to do with the least amount of prep,
> and considering there is no real money around for such things, no one
> can "afford" to infest more thought in such things! As a listener i
> know what is going to happen as soon as they take there axes out of
> the cases. Am i surprised, maybe mildly at most, in the mean while and
> hour has gone by.
>
>>
>> an extenuation of Cage
>> The room is reduced to the common residuals as in Lucier's famous
>> piece.
>
> I saw this piece done live about a year ago. seeing it live i noticed
> that the resultant effect was not the resonant frequencies of the room
> but the artifact of the mike placement. a lack of this understanding
> by the composer makes me classify this as a failure. that you end up
> with some resonance at all might be interesting , but in the long run
> i find kind of empty. Scientific curiosities or "cleverness" doesn't
> make something good music for me. If that is all you need , I envy you
> cause I wish I could satisfied with so little. On the other hand i
> find Cage still interesting. Possibly because the I ching is
> structured in ways beyond our logic. Cage- no one since plato probably
> knows what the best "questions" to ask. These questions or choice
> determines everything in directions that free improv to my ear never
> gets to. His music does not resemble Free Improv.
>
>> and Everything we do becomes melodic
>
> Then why try to avoid it!
>
>
>>
>> Cheers
>> PaganO
>
> -- Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
> www.anaphoria.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jay Williams here,
We just got back on the air after our move to Port Angeles, WA, just in time
to read the exchangejbetween Mrssrs. Pagano and Grady. Thanks to both of you
for keeping these issues alive.

>we have had to abandon most of these "innovations" because they lead us
nowhere. They gave a
>material that was quickly exhausted
>Right on!
>> AMM was not a failure but an assertion that every noise has a note
>Sorry, but that pushes my pet peeve button. Verbal communication is made
useless when definitions are stretched into indefinition. Noise, at least,
if we're thinking spectrally, _can't be reduced to a note or set of notes.
It can have notes, but must have a pretty fair degree of, well, _noise:
something in the sound that we'd subjectively refer to as "static."
>Free improv has failed to produce
>freedom. it all sounds so similar due the music resulting from the physical
habits of the players.
And the players always seem to resort to the same habits.
>As a listener i know what is going to happen as soon as they take there
>axes out of the cases. Am i surprised, maybe mildly at most, in the mean
while and hour has gone by.
>
>>
>> an extenuation of Cage
>> The room is reduced to the common residuals as in Lucier's famous piece.
>
>I saw this piece done live about a year ago. seeing it live i noticed that
the resultant effect was
>not the resonant frequencies of the room but the artifact of the mike
placement.
If you really wanna find out the natural notes of a room's resonance you can
simply do a gliss with your voice or any other signal generator and either
listen with yer ears or, if the resonant points are not so discernible,
bring along a deci bel meter.
a lack of this
>understanding by the composer makes me classify this as a failure. that you
end up with some
>resonance at all might be interesting , but in the long run i find kind of
empty. Scientific
>curiosities or "cleverness" doesn't make something good music for me. If
that is all you need , I
>envy you cause I wish I could satisfied with so little. On the other hand i
find Cage still
>interesting. Possibly because the I ching is structured in ways beyond our
logic. Cage- no one since
>plato probably knows what the best "questions" to ask. These questions or
choice determines
>everything in directions that free improv to my ear never gets to. His
music does not resemble Free
>Improv.
Kinda brings to mind "the prison of total freedom." Whose gem is that? >
>> and Everything we do becomes melodic
>
>Then why try to avoid it!
So, a pretty girl is _not like a melody, she _is one?>
>
>>
>> Cheers
>> PaganO
>>
>
>-- Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
>www.anaphoria.com
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
> 
><p>ppagano@bellsouth.net wrote:
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>gainst the "experimental" failures of
><br>> the 60's, we have only to loosen the borders that separate us from
>our neighbors.
><p>What experimental failures?</blockquote>
>we have had to abandon most of these "innovations" because they lead us
>nowhere. They gave a material that was quickly exhausted
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>AMM was not a failure but an assertion that every
>noise has a note</blockquote>
>Does it? i thought it had quite a few notes, and if i sample it i notice
>that i have to make an even larger pitch change to hear any change. My
>usable material becomes less not more. I have their recording "newfoundland"
>I consider it there best. I don't find i really need to own more than one
>as not much happens different in syntax in any of the others. Free improv
>has failed to produce freedom. it all sounds so similar due the music resulting
>from the physical habits of the players. In LA. that is all there is. Why?
>because it is the easiest thing to do with the least amount of prep, and
>considering there is no real money around for such things, no one can "afford"
>to infest more thought in such things! As a listener i know what is going
>to happen as soon as they take there axes out of the cases. Am i surprised,
>maybe mildly at most, in the mean while and hour has gone by.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE> 
><br>an extenuation of Cage
><br>The room is reduced to the common residuals as in Lucier's famous
piece.</blockquote>
>I saw this piece done live about a year ago. seeing it live i noticed that
>the resultant effect was not the resonant frequencies of the room but the
>artifact of the mike placement. a lack of this understanding by the composer
>makes me classify this as a failure. that you end up with some resonance
>at all might be interesting , but in the long run i find kind of empty.
>Scientific curiosities or "cleverness" doesn't make something good music
>for me. If that is all you need , I envy you cause I wish I could satisfied
>with so little. On the other hand i find Cage still interesting. Possibly
>because the I ching is structured in ways beyond our logic. Cage- no one
>since plato probably knows what the best "questions" to ask. These questions
>or choice determines everything in directions that free improv to my ear
>never gets to. His music does not resemble Free Improv.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>and Everything we do becomes melodic</blockquote>
>Then why try to avoid it!
><br> 
><blockquote TYPE=CITE> 
><br>Cheers
><br>PaganO
><br> </blockquote>
>-- <font size=+1>Kraig Grady</font>
><br><font size=+1>North American Embassy of Anaphoria island</font>
><br><a href="http://www.anaphoria.com">www.anaphoria.com</a>
><hr>
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actually
"a pretty girl is like a violent crime
if you do it wrong you can do time..."

Pat.

Daniel!
I always tended to think of all that east coast music as
experimental also. We are using the words differently. It was really
these that failed in my original thought more than AMM. But since that
was mentioned , i had to vocalize my problems with that. In fact it is
AMM ( along with the whole post scratch orchestra moment) who have been
even more influential to music making than the other minimalists. The
whole experimental english music scene is still one of the strongest
forces around. If you go into a store with an experimental section, they
dominate it with those influenced by this "school". Even much techno is
coming out of this.
Minimalism was already in existence in the far east. It is a result
of a cultural "widening" more than an "evolutionary step. The examples
of repetition, extended time and/or sonorities are too numerous to
mention. The available technology of home tape machines also changed our
way of making music. I for one as well as countless thousands of others
played with loops because it was an obvious thing to do. I don't think
we needed Riley to tell us it was there. In fact, i don't think i even
heard in C until the late 70's, Reich's music being much more popular at
the time. But the electronics of Hendrix was as influential as anything.

I am sitting in the room seemed to be in this performance an
arbitrary amplification of certain resonant frequencies that unless
there was a conscious effort by the mike placement, just about any pitch
in the room could come out. I am glad to hear he doesn't encourage live
performances of which I am sure this factor might have some bering on
it. Compositions become more and more inseparable from the composers
themselves. I expect this to become more so as opposed to less.

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> Kraig:_I am sitting in a room_ really does end up articulating the
> resonant frequencies of the room in which it was recorded (in the
> process, erasing the imperfections in his speech). Mic and
> loudspeaker _placement_ have actually only a limited effect on the end
> product, while the _choice_ of mic and speaker (for their response
> characteristics) are critical. In general, live performances do not
> work well and Lucier generally tries to discourage them (just to begin
> with, the performer should be in a different room from the audience,
> creating large logistical problems). What's really amazing is that it
> is the experimental repertoire from the sixties and seventies that has
> survived, not the mainstream and academic genres. _In C_, _Piano
> Phase_, _I am sitting in a room_, _The Wolfman_: they all continue to
> be played and influence current music-making in vital ways. On the
> other hand, consider any of the Pulitzer Prize winners in music
> composition from the past 50 years -- those awards are, as Richard
> Winslow put it, "passports to oblivion". DJW

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

ppagano@bellsouth.net wrote:

> UP===========sometimes it's not what you were looking for it's what you
> find.

agreed! more advancements seem to be made by a "stumbling upon" than we can imagine

> "our problems have become social not musical"................

Free improv is something we need to return to when these obstacles can become overcome. We
need more work, exercises, and more than anything else a critical ear to evaluate what exactly
we are doing when we are engaged in such activity.

>
> I don't try to avoid melody
> i am just redefining what it means.

please elaborate, I aM very curious. a thanks to Jays comments who i also agree!

>
> P
>
> >> Cheers
> >> PaganO
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com