Xenharmonic wiki hosting

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 5:02 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > OK, well you can download the MP3 straight from SoundCloud if you'd like.
>
> I don't want to download them, I want to link to them. Would it be OK to download them and get Chris to hoast them?

That's fine, although this might also be a good time to discuss again
the issue of hosting for the xenharmonic wiki in general.

You offered to send me a copy a while ago so I could enrich it a bit.
We could have it automatically set up so that when you click a phrase
like "81/80," it automatically pops up a little window that tells you
what the name of the temperament is, what its POTE generator is, what
some ETs that support it are, what the two simplest intervals it
equates are, its minimal comma pump, etc. And once we have that
structure, perhaps by setting up a custom wiki tag like [comma] or
something, we can just keep adding to it whenever we want. We can
throw AJAX calls into Graham's temperament finder, or we could just
store a copy of the temperament database locally, or maybe some more
exotic solution (pending Graham's permission to set something like
that up). We could do anything we want, really, and it wouldn't be too
difficult to do (although cross-browser considerations would pose a
bit of a challenge, but then again things can't get any worse).

I'm a Javascript ninja, and it would be a good exercise for me to
learn to program these metrics by hand; then I'd really understand
what's going on. Plus, it would be useful for everyone to be able to
easily see the data for regular temperaments. But I don't think we can
do that as it is, because we'd have to modify the actual wiki code to
do that, and it's hosted on wikispaces now. So we'd have to host it
somewhere else. I bought the xenaesthetic.com domain a little while
back, as a domain that will hopefully generalize what we're doing with
music to the broader 21st century artistic movement in general
(frustration with what's out there, the use of math and science to
figure out new techniques, requirement to be both left and right
brained, etc). So maybe now's a good time to use that.

Anyway, this isn't tangential to what we're discussing, because the
same issue has now reared its head - we need to ask Chris for
permission to host MP3s, and then link to them. This will surely lead
to broken links some time in the future, and it would be much better
all around if we could just host the MP3s on the wiki itself. So maybe
now would be a good time to get all of this sorted out? I don't mind
paying for hosting, and I think it would solve a lot of problems like
this.

-Mike

With all due respect mike I don't understand why it would be more reliable for you to pay for hosting instead of me pay for hosting.

But that being said I don't have any desire to do anything but support my own composing and business efforts. If I can help out a few of you as well all the better.

Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@gmail.com>
Sender: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 17:21:11
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Xenharmonic wiki hosting

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 5:02 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > OK, well you can download the MP3 straight from SoundCloud if you'd like.
>
> I don't want to download them, I want to link to them. Would it be OK to download them and get Chris to hoast them?

That's fine, although this might also be a good time to discuss again
the issue of hosting for the xenharmonic wiki in general.

You offered to send me a copy a while ago so I could enrich it a bit.
We could have it automatically set up so that when you click a phrase
like "81/80," it automatically pops up a little window that tells you
what the name of the temperament is, what its POTE generator is, what
some ETs that support it are, what the two simplest intervals it
equates are, its minimal comma pump, etc. And once we have that
structure, perhaps by setting up a custom wiki tag like [comma] or
something, we can just keep adding to it whenever we want. We can
throw AJAX calls into Graham's temperament finder, or we could just
store a copy of the temperament database locally, or maybe some more
exotic solution (pending Graham's permission to set something like
that up). We could do anything we want, really, and it wouldn't be too
difficult to do (although cross-browser considerations would pose a
bit of a challenge, but then again things can't get any worse).

I'm a Javascript ninja, and it would be a good exercise for me to
learn to program these metrics by hand; then I'd really understand
what's going on. Plus, it would be useful for everyone to be able to
easily see the data for regular temperaments. But I don't think we can
do that as it is, because we'd have to modify the actual wiki code to
do that, and it's hosted on wikispaces now. So we'd have to host it
somewhere else. I bought the xenaesthetic.com domain a little while
back, as a domain that will hopefully generalize what we're doing with
music to the broader 21st century artistic movement in general
(frustration with what's out there, the use of math and science to
figure out new techniques, requirement to be both left and right
brained, etc). So maybe now's a good time to use that.

Anyway, this isn't tangential to what we're discussing, because the
same issue has now reared its head - we need to ask Chris for
permission to host MP3s, and then link to them. This will surely lead
to broken links some time in the future, and it would be much better
all around if we could just host the MP3s on the wiki itself. So maybe
now would be a good time to get all of this sorted out? I don't mind
paying for hosting, and I think it would solve a lot of problems like
this.

-Mike

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 7:03 PM, <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> With all due respect mike I don't understand why it would be more reliable for you to pay for hosting instead of me pay for hosting.
>
> But that being said I don't have any desire to do anything but support my own composing and business efforts. If I can help out a few of you as well all the better.

The point of my above message isn't to insinuate that your hosting is
unreliable.

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> This will surely lead
> to broken links some time in the future, and it would be much better
> all around if we could just host the MP3s on the wiki itself.

I'm not convinced it will "surely" lead to broken links, especially if we don't want it to. But the files in question are so small I should have no problem using the Xenwiki to store them, and will do that if you prefer.

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 7:56 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not convinced it will "surely" lead to broken links, especially if we don't want it to. But the files in question are so small I should have no problem using the Xenwiki to store them, and will do that if you prefer.

OK, but what about all of the stuff I mentioned about scripting?

-Mike

Who owns the xenwhiki domain?

Therein lies your solution.

You can host things anywhere on earth if you manage your domains and
subdomains properly. You can change where things are hosted transparently in
the same way.

In my case, if I were to not be able to support my site I would have plenty
of notice and would make arrangements and unlike the fine folks at Ning I'd
not leave the community high and dry.

Mike the only reason I can understand your desire to move the xenwiki to a
server you are paying for is that you need root access to do your scripting.

BUT the question not being asked is - what happens if you do a load of nifty
scripting and for some reason you are no longer around to maintain it? Twice
I placed myself in that position and the folks who said "sure we'll take
care of it" got bored or lost in a riot or something and I was left with
code I didn't understand.

There is a huge advantage in *not* customizing a community site because you
make it easier to maintain - more people understand the code.

Yes you don't get bells and whistles - however, I think the goal should be
longevity of the information even if it is not presented in the most up to
date fashion.

After xenharmonic alliance went down the xenwiki became the next most
comprehensive site for our community.

I think any changes need to be thought out carefully because in my view
xenwiki is very important now.

Chris

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 7:56 PM, genewardsmith
> <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not convinced it will "surely" lead to broken links, especially if we
> don't want it to. But the files in question are so small I should have no
> problem using the Xenwiki to store them, and will do that if you prefer.
>
> OK, but what about all of the stuff I mentioned about scripting?
>
> -Mike
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> OK, but what about all of the stuff I mentioned about scripting?

You never said what you thought about the idea of me uploading a copy of the Xenwiki to a file sharing service. Interested? If so, I'll first get a recent copy prepared.

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:12 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > OK, but what about all of the stuff I mentioned about scripting?
>
> You never said what you thought about the idea of me uploading a copy of the Xenwiki to a file sharing service. Interested? If so, I'll first get a recent copy prepared.

I say let's do it! But in what format will you upload it?

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> I say let's do it! But in what format will you upload it?

Would you prefer wiki or html?

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:16 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > I say let's do it! But in what format will you upload it?
>
> Would you prefer wiki or html?

Can we get wiki? AKA, if I install the wiki software on my server,
will I be able to actually create custom tags and stylesheets and
such?

-Mike

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> BUT the question not being asked is - what happens if you do a load of nifty scripting and for some reason you are no longer around to maintain it? Twice I placed myself in that position and the folks who said "sure we'll take care of it" got bored or lost in a riot or something and I was left with code I didn't understand.

This isn't really a problem. My plan was to create a custom wiki tag
that behaved in a certain way. If we somehow lost everything but the
wiki contents, you could load it up in a new wiki. You wouldn't have
the custom tag, so hovering over 81/80 wouldn't give you detailed
information, but you wouldn't be any worse off than you are now. I'm
not talking about altering the actual PHP scripting.

I'd also like to start making regular backups of it and putting them
on archive.org, whether we do fancy stuff with the Javascript or not,
because I think the future of music right now lies on wikispaces.com,
and we have left everything in their hands.

-Mike

I'm all for backups indeed. And if you can host it personally on a domain
name you own and have control over I think that is better - once we get
everyone switched to the new domain name.
The domain is the key to make this resource floatable to whomever has the
hosting available in the future. That is the key to keeping our library
alive.

I should check if Archive.org's wayback machine's (presumed) archive of the
xenwiki is truly functional (excepting downloads of course). It could be.

There some additional things that I can do to make things easier with my
site
I can set up a public ftp account but I would still have to move the files
by hand.
Perhaps for someone like Gene who does archival I can give him a personal
ftp account into micro.soonlabel.com

This gives the ability to toss around larger files but beyond that I don't
see a drastic improvement over emailing the files to me.

I don't know what your hosting service is like Mike. I have a TB of space
and unlimited traffic. I normally toss 70 to 100 gigs out the door a month.

Chris

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > BUT the question not being asked is - what happens if you do a load of
> nifty scripting and for some reason you are no longer around to maintain it?
> Twice I placed myself in that position and the folks who said "sure we'll
> take care of it" got bored or lost in a riot or something and I was left
> with code I didn't understand.
>
> This isn't really a problem. My plan was to create a custom wiki tag
> that behaved in a certain way. If we somehow lost everything but the
> wiki contents, you could load it up in a new wiki. You wouldn't have
> the custom tag, so hovering over 81/80 wouldn't give you detailed
> information, but you wouldn't be any worse off than you are now. I'm
> not talking about altering the actual PHP scripting.
>
> I'd also like to start making regular backups of it and putting them
> on archive.org, whether we do fancy stuff with the Javascript or not,
> because I think the future of music right now lies on wikispaces.com,
> and we have left everything in their hands.
>
> -Mike
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

> Perhaps for someone like Gene who does archival I can give him a personal
> ftp account into micro.soonlabel.com

I would find that very convenient. You should give some indication of how much space I can use. Don't toss anything out the door without warning, of course. I'm surprised you find it necessary to do so much culling.

I will be glad to set you up - expect a direct email.

When I said 70 to 100 gigs out the door a month I meant my traffic. That is
how much data people grab from my site and a large portion is microtonal
music.

Chris

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 9:08 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps for someone like Gene who does archival I can give him a personal
> > ftp account into micro.soonlabel.com
>
> I would find that very convenient. You should give some indication of how
> much space I can use. Don't toss anything out the door without warning, of
> course. I'm surprised you find it necessary to do so much culling.
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> Can we get wiki? AKA, if I install the wiki software on my server,
> will I be able to actually create custom tags and stylesheets and
> such?

Can you guys take this offlist please? -Carl

Gene,

I sent you a couple emails about this and didn't receive a response. did
you get the emails?

Thanks,

Chris

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 9:08 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps for someone like Gene who does archival I can give him a personal
> > ftp account into micro.soonlabel.com
>
> I would find that very convenient. You should give some indication of how
> much space I can use. Don't toss anything out the door without warning, of
> course. I'm surprised you find it necessary to do so much culling.
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> I sent you a couple emails about this and didn't receive a response. did
> you get the emails?

I don't recall seeing anything but links to Petr's comma pumps, which I've put up on a comma pump page, and plan to add more to, including my own pump examples. However, I should warn people I may be even more out of it than I have been, because of emergency surgery for complications from the previous surgery tomorrow. This will be while I'm having a wild drug trip called "general anesthesia", and I wish I could convey to you somehow how much I'm looking forward to it, except that actually, I'm not. I'm just hoping the complexity multiplier is less than one.

Damn! I will send a prayer to the diety of my upbringing, while
simultaneously willing an optimal outcome by utilizing the law of
attraction. That should help modestly.

Do they expect this is the last bit of surgery you will need to have?

-Mike

On Apr 26, 2011, at 10:34 PM, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> I sent you a couple emails about this and didn't receive a response. did
> you get the emails?

I don't recall seeing anything but links to Petr's comma pumps, which I've
put up on a comma pump page, and plan to add more to, including my own pump
examples. However, I should warn people I may be even more out of it than I
have been, because of emergency surgery for complications from the previous
surgery tomorrow. This will be while I'm having a wild drug trip called
"general anesthesia", and I wish I could convey to you somehow how much I'm
looking forward to it, except that actually, I'm not. I'm just hoping the
complexity multiplier is less than one.

Good luck Gene! If you need an errand run at some point
let me know. -Carl

> This will be while I'm having a wild drug trip called "general
> anesthesia", and I wish I could convey to you somehow how much
> I'm looking forward to it, except that actually, I'm not.
> I'm just hoping the complexity multiplier is less than one.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Good luck Gene! If you need an errand run at some point
> let me know. -Carl

My brother Joel is doing the most important errand, ferrying me to some diploma mill in Palo Alto called "Stanford" for the surgery and then back again. By the way, I tried calling you a while back and the number I have doesn't work. If you feel inspired to send a new one, that would be fine.

ok,

good luck on the surgery and we will deal with the archival stuff when you
recuperate. No hurry.

Chris

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 10:34 PM, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...
> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > I sent you a couple emails about this and didn't receive a response. did
> > you get the emails?
>
> I don't recall seeing anything but links to Petr's comma pumps, which I've
> put up on a comma pump page, and plan to add more to, including my own pump
> examples. However, I should warn people I may be even more out of it than I
> have been, because of emergency surgery for complications from the previous
> surgery tomorrow. This will be while I'm having a wild drug trip called
> "general anesthesia", and I wish I could convey to you somehow how much I'm
> looking forward to it, except that actually, I'm not. I'm just hoping the
> complexity multiplier is less than one.
>
>
>

>
> Good luck Gene! If you need an errand run at some point
> let me know. -Carl
>

And more good wishes!

--- "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> > Good luck Gene! If you need an errand run at some point
> > let me know. -Carl
>
> My brother Joel is doing the most important errand, ferrying me
> to some diploma mill in Palo Alto called "Stanford" for the
> surgery and then back again. By the way, I tried calling you a
> while back and the number I have doesn't work. If you feel
> inspired to send a new one, that would be fine.

510-306-7305 should reach me most hours (ringer off when I'm
sleeping so calling any time is OK).

I haven't needed surgery yet but I do feel lucky to live near
some of the best medical facilities in the world.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> Damn! I will send a prayer to the diety of my upbringing, while
> simultaneously willing an optimal outcome by utilizing the law of
> attraction. That should help modestly.

One of them came through--the Stanford retinologist said I don't need surgery because I don't actually have a detached retina. Specialists can clear things up with a snap of their fingers like that.

--- "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> One of them came through--the Stanford retinologist said I don't
> need surgery because I don't actually have a detached retina.
> Specialists can clear things up with a snap of their fingers
> like that.

Hooray!

My Dad had a detached retina, which IIRC required a laser blast
but not surgery. He did have cataract surgery, where these days
they just give you a new lens, but that didn't require general
anesthesia IIRC.

Heh- I frequently note how people's 2nd-hand medical stories
tend to be 100% wrong, but here I'm wondering if I didn't goof
myself somehow. I'll have to ask him.

Give me a call sometime anyway. If it was worth getting
together over surgery it's got to be better over lunch! -Carl

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 6:27 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> >
> > Damn! I will send a prayer to the diety of my upbringing, while
> > simultaneously willing an optimal outcome by utilizing the law of
> > attraction. That should help modestly.
>
> One of them came through--the Stanford retinologist said I don't need surgery because I don't actually have a detached retina. Specialists can clear things up with a snap of their fingers like that.

There you go! Glad it worked out.

-Mike