Re: [tuning] Bach and tuning

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Haverstick <STICK@USWEST.NET>
To: <tuning@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 1:19 PM
Subject: [tuning] Bach and tuning

> Whoever put the post about Bach and the unaccompanied string
> works...I have always been curious about that subject myself, and have
> wondered if string players did, indeed, vary from 12 eq when they played
> these works. Of course, it would not be surprising at all to find they
> did. I had a question about Bach myself...I have read, in various
> places, that he had an interest in numerology; does anyone know anything
> about this? Was there some system he studied? How, if this is so, did it
> affect his composition? Any info would be appreciated.
> A superb rendition of the Bach solo sonatas/partitas is by guitarist
> Kazuhito Yamashita...he also does the cello sonatas. Not only is the
> technique staggering, but the feeling, the emotional depth, is amazing.
> He's really playing on a deep level.
> Speaking of guitarists, I just read a review of a guitarist named
> Adam Del Monte, who has a guitar fretted to meantone...has anyone heard
> his CD? I think that's a good thing....Hstick

Bach was into the kind of numerology where, for example, in the St. Matthew
passion, in the chorus where it says the veil of the temple was rent, the
tremolo in the bass has the # of notes equal to the verse number in the
bible, etc. I did notice that the three sections of the Ciaconna are in
rough golden mean relationship (proportion wise) but I doubt it was
conscious. Bach's numerology was definitely the religious-symbolism variety.

No shit about Kazuhito, he's amazing. I heard him live once, and for the
first few seconds my mind bugged out at the sound he was producing, it
sounded more like a piano, and my brain would not match it to the image of a
guy on stage with a guitar. Awesome. He's constantly adjusting the tuning
while he's playing, reaching across w/ his right hand to tweak a peg in the
middle of a passage. I wonder if some of it is trying to adjust ET to sound
better as the harmonies change. I think most guitarists realize early on
that there is no way to tune the third string so that both Cmajor and Emajor
chords sound good, its one or the other. Of course it could be because all
guitars are basically out of tune anyway, no matter what you do.

Never heard of Del Monte, but I'm game to hear anything with discombobulated
frets. I think Wim had his moveable fret guitar in meantone to play Dowland
at the last Microthon. A guitar hard-fretted in a given meantone would kind
of limit the pieces you could play, unless of course what you wanted to do
was make up your own.

Dante

Neil Haverstick asked:
>I had a question about Bach myself...I have read, in various
>places, that he had an interest in numerology; does anyone know anything
>about this? Was there some system he studied? How, if this is so, did it
>affect his composition? Any info would be appreciated.

All we have from a contemporary source is a brief mention that Bach enjoyed
working with figures. Someone else discovered evidence of numerology in
some of Bach's works. In one popular numerological pasttime, one assigns a
letter the number of its place in the alphabet. (At the time I and J as
well as U and V were considered the same for this purpose.) In that case,
"Bach" adds up to 14, and "J. S. Bach" is 41, that is, a transposition of
the digits. It turns out that 14 and 41 show up a lot in certain pieces --
numbers of notes in a subject, measures in a piece, and so on. I read an
extensive article on this topic based on someone's dissertation some time
ago in the Bach Jahrbuch, but I have to say that it took these ideas very
far afield indeed, finding evidence of some kind of number symbolism
practically everywhere. What the author needed to do was some kind of
statistical analysis to see if the many numerologically significant numbers
identified were occuring more often than they would by chance.

Bill

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dante Rosati wrote,

>I think Wim had his moveable fret guitar in meantone to play Dowland
>at the last Microthon.

I would think he probably had it in Dowland's tuning instead (see
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/fngrbds/dowland/dowland.htm).

>A guitar hard-fretted in a given meantone would kind
>of limit the pieces you could play,

If you had 19 straight-across frets of meantone per octave, you'd have 14
notes of meantone common to all strings -- that would give unfettered access
to a large proportion of the Renaissance and Baroque repertoire. 31
straight-across frets in meantone would give you enough to play all Bach
enharmonically correctly. But then you might as well go to 31-tET.

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
To: <tuning@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: [tuning] Bach and tuning

>
> If you had 19 straight-across frets of meantone per octave, you'd have 14
> notes of meantone common to all strings -- that would give unfettered
access
> to a large proportion of the Renaissance and Baroque repertoire. 31
> straight-across frets in meantone would give you enough to play all Bach
> enharmonically correctly. But then you might as well go to 31-tET.

Very true. I was imagining having 12 frets per octave in meantone, like a
renaissance harpsichord or virginal, but without the ability to retune. That
would be more limiting, I think

>Very true. I was imagining having 12 frets per octave in meantone, like a
>renaissance harpsichord or virginal, but without the ability to retune.
That
>would be more limiting, I think

If the 12 were straight-across, you'd only have 7 notes common to all
strings. Very limiting indeed.