Baby scales :-D

I've been trying to come up with a "fool-proof" scale that has nothing but
low-limit Just intervals possible and would be so un-intimidating even a baby
(namely my first child) could use it. I wanted something competitive even with
traditional pure pentatonic scales. The idea is to program it into a cheap
midi controller, leave it in the babies room, and have him hit random notes
without being startled. :-D

I came up with this 5-tone "mini scale"

9/8
6/5
3/2
9/5
2/1

I think the most complex dyad possible in there is 15/8. Any other ideas?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> I think the most complex dyad possible in there is 15/8. Any other ideas?
>
How did you miss the 16/15 between 9/8 and 6/5?

Try:
1/1
9/8
5/4
3/2
7/4
2/1

Most complex interval in there is a 9/7 (assuming this scale does not go past the octave).

When looking for a given number of notes that will be maximally-concordant with each other, the best answer is always in the harmonic series. This is basically a 4:5:6:7:9 tetrad inverted to fit in one octave, as 8:9:10:12:14:16. And it has the added benefit of exposing a baby to septimal harmony!

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> I think the most complex dyad possible in there is 15/8. Any other ideas?
>
How did you miss the 16/15 between 9/8 and 6/5?

Try:
1/1
9/8
5/4
3/2
7/4
2/1

Most complex interval in there is a 9/7 (assuming this scale does not go past the octave).

When looking for a given number of notes that will be maximally-concordant with each other, the best answer is always in the harmonic series. This is basically a 4:5:6:7:9 tetrad inverted to fit in one octave, as 8:9:10:12:14:16. And it has the added benefit of exposing a baby to septimal harmony!

-Igs

You can also try:
1/1
6/5
4/3
3/2
9/5
2/1

Should also be pretty fool-proof.

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@> wrote:
> > I think the most complex dyad possible in there is 15/8. Any other ideas?
> >
> How did you miss the 16/15 between 9/8 and 6/5?
>
> Try:
> 1/1
> 9/8
> 5/4
> 3/2
> 7/4
> 2/1
>
> Most complex interval in there is a 9/7 (assuming this scale does not go past the octave).
>
> When looking for a given number of notes that will be maximally-concordant with each other, the best answer is always in the harmonic series. This is basically a 4:5:6:7:9 tetrad inverted to fit in one octave, as 8:9:10:12:14:16. And it has the added benefit of exposing a baby to septimal harmony!
>
> -Igs
>

Igs>"How did you miss the 16/15 between 9/8 and 6/5?"
Ah you are right....I did not check the semitones...

>"
Try:
1/1
9/8
5/4
3/2
7/4
2/1
Most complex interval in there is a 9/7 (assuming this scale does not go past
the octave)."

I found 10/7 assuming it does but you are right...that's still simpler.

>"When looking for a given number of notes that will be maximally-concordant
>with each other, the best answer is always in the harmonic series."

Right. I actually tried 5:6:7:8:9:10...but ran into critical band issues
because narrowest intervals of 9:8 and 10:9 are squeezed together...the exact
opposite of being evenly distributed. Your trick of inverting a pentad seems to
work much better...

>"This is basically a 4:5:6:7:9 tetrad inverted to fit in one octave, as
>8:9:10:12:14:16. And it has the added benefit of exposing a baby to septimal
>harmony!"

Agreed, and it does look better as it avoids the 15/8 and the semitone.

>"You can also try:
1/1
6/5
4/3
3/2
9/5
2/1
Should also be pretty fool-proof."

This one works until you go past the octave. The 4/3 on the next octave and the
3/2 form a 16/9...not bad but not exactly "simplest of the simple".

>"Try:
1/1
9/8
5/4
3/2
7/4
2/1"

Funny, when I use this scale in composition, it kills all sense of tonal
color. So it's a trade off...your suggestion is undoubtedly more consonant than
mine, but since it's essentially cut up sections of the 8-16 harmonic series
segments it seems to point at one virtual fundamental all the time.

Try making a composition in your suggested scale, then switch to mine (or vice
versa)....
1/1
9/8
6/5
3/2
9/5
2/1

The "coloration/discoloration" effect is all too creepy.... :-D

Lainaus Michael <djtrancendance@...>:

>> "Try:
> 1/1
> 9/8
> 5/4
> 3/2
> 7/4
> 2/1"
>
> Funny, when I use this scale in composition, it kills all sense of tonal
> color.

How about

1/1
6/5
4/3
3/2
12/7
2/1

the minor pentad. Should have more "tonal color".

Kalle

There's a 13/10 between the 3/2 on the second octave and the 12/7...but the rest
looks great and, indeed, loaded with tonal color (prime 3,5....AND 'even' an
added 7). :-)

________________________________
From: "kalleaho@..." <kalleaho@...>
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 1:26:47 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Baby scales :-D

Lainaus Michael <djtrancendance@...>:

>> "Try:
> 1/1
> 9/8
> 5/4
> 3/2
> 7/4
> 2/1"
>
> Funny, when I use this scale in composition, it kills all sense of tonal
> color.

How about

1/1
6/5
4/3
3/2
12/7
2/1

the minor pentad. Should have more "tonal color".

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> Right. I actually tried 5:6:7:8:9:10...but ran into critical band issues
> because narrowest intervals of 9:8 and 10:9 are squeezed together...the exact
> opposite of being evenly distributed. Your trick of inverting a pentad seems to
> work much better...

You could also try a meantone pentatonic like C-Eb-F-G-Bb-C tuned in 31-EDO, or the utonal version of my first suggestion:

1/1
8/7
4/3
8/5
16/9
2/1

All the same dyads in reverse order, perhaps a slight bit more colorful.

Perhaps (for maximum reduction in potential dissonance) an even better option is to not worry about spanning an octave and do something like 3:5:8:10:12 or 4:5:6:8:10:12 or even 2:3:4:6:8:12, or (for more color) 6:9:12:15:18.

Then again, this is all assuming that beatlessness="calmness", which is something I think is about as dead-wrong as can possibly be. If you look at the sounds typically associated with inducing calm/meditative states (i.e. bells, gongs, "binaural beats", didgeridoos, chants, etc.) one thing they all have in common is an utter LACK of static unchanging beatless notes. Even in a group chanting "om", the fact that everyone is slightly off from each other induces some very complex beating patterns. I mean, if pure low-limit JI harmony is so calming, why aren't there meditation CD's out there of a pure 4:5:6 triad sustained for 30+ minutes? I'll tell you why: because that would drive most people INSANE.

So maybe to please and calm your baby, you WANT some nice soothing beating brought on by intervals nestled nicely between minima and maxima of dyadic H.E.; so maybe a harmonic series chunk like 23:27:31:35:39:47 or 29:34:39:45:51:59 (yep, stretched octaves), 5-EDO, the 23-EDO antipentatonic (0-261-470-730-939-1200), the 7-EDO version of the standard pentatonic (0-171-514-686-1029-1200), or even (gasp) a traditional gamelan tuning?

Or maybe a hybrid approach whereby you include some beatless intervals and some intervals about 20-30 cents apart from them, maybe going up to an 8-note scale like this: 64:72:80:81:96:111:112:126:128? I've seen instruments made of glass based on similar ideas:

http://www.tidewater.net/~xylojim/edglass.html

(Particularly the "Aquabeat", sounds AMAZING!!)

HTH!

-Igs

Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> I've been trying to come up with a "fool-proof" scale that
> has nothing but low-limit Just intervals possible and would be
> so un-intimidating even a baby (namely my first child) could use

Igs>"
1/1
8/7
4/3
8/5
16/9
2/1
All the same dyads in reverse order, perhaps a slight bit more colorful."

Indeed... :-) It also seems apparent to me "sub-harmonic series" have more
color than harmonic series.

>"I mean, if pure low-limit JI harmony is so calming, why aren't there
>meditation CD's out there of a pure 4:5:6 triad sustained for 30+ minutes?
>I'll tell you why: because that would drive most people INSANE. "

Maybe...but oddly enough I played a major chord on a mini-keyboard while
shopping at Babies R Us (yes a baby-accessory store, lol)....and baby in the
area (stuck in a shopping cart) start smiling. Then I played a diminished
chord: the baby instantly started crying. Tried both chords again, same deal.
By the same token...hugely repetitive and cheesy (think two chords, virtually no
counter point...) music (think Raffi...or similar) drives most people
insane...but it's exactly what babies and very young children seem to usually
love. Mind you I'm not saying one-chord simple...but if you made a song just
altering between a major and minor chord (just or not)...it would actually
probably work well. Or at least I know it did for me at that age.

>"So maybe to please and calm your baby, you WANT some nice soothing beating
>brought on by intervals nestled nicely between minima and maxima of dyadic
>H.E.; so maybe a harmonic series chunk like 23:27:31:35:39:47 or
>29:34:39:45:51:59 (yep, stretched octaves), 5-EDO, the 23-EDO antipentatonic
>(0-261-470-730-939-1200), the 7-EDO version of the standard pentatonic
>(0-171-514-686-1029-1200), or even (gasp) a traditional gamelan tuning? "

Will try those as well and see what happens....

>"http://www.tidewater.net/~xylojim/edglass.html"
Will have to listen to these once I get home (lol).

>"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"

Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)

Congrats Mike on the child.
Children are :
Lots of work but even more reward.
*

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael <djtrancendance@yahoo.com>
Sender: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:38:55
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Baby scales :-D

Igs>"
1/1
8/7
4/3
8/5
16/9
2/1
All the same dyads in reverse order, perhaps a slight bit more colorful."

Indeed... :-) It also seems apparent to me "sub-harmonic series" have more
color than harmonic series.

>"I mean, if pure low-limit JI harmony is so calming, why aren't there
>meditation CD's out there of a pure 4:5:6 triad sustained for 30+ minutes?
>I'll tell you why: because that would drive most people INSANE. "

Maybe...but oddly enough I played a major chord on a mini-keyboard while
shopping at Babies R Us (yes a baby-accessory store, lol)....and baby in the
area (stuck in a shopping cart) start smiling. Then I played a diminished
chord: the baby instantly started crying. Tried both chords again, same deal.
By the same token...hugely repetitive and cheesy (think two chords, virtually no
counter point...) music (think Raffi...or similar) drives most people
insane...but it's exactly what babies and very young children seem to usually
love. Mind you I'm not saying one-chord simple...but if you made a song just
altering between a major and minor chord (just or not)...it would actually
probably work well. Or at least I know it did for me at that age.

>"So maybe to please and calm your baby, you WANT some nice soothing beating
>brought on by intervals nestled nicely between minima and maxima of dyadic
>H.E.; so maybe a harmonic series chunk like 23:27:31:35:39:47 or
>29:34:39:45:51:59 (yep, stretched octaves), 5-EDO, the 23-EDO antipentatonic
>(0-261-470-730-939-1200), the 7-EDO version of the standard pentatonic
>(0-171-514-686-1029-1200), or even (gasp) a traditional gamelan tuning? "

Will try those as well and see what happens....

>"http://www.tidewater.net/~xylojim/edglass.html"
Will have to listen to these once I get home (lol).

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@> wrote:
> > Right. I actually tried 5:6:7:8:9:10...but ran into critical band issues
> > because narrowest intervals of 9:8 and 10:9 are squeezed together...the exact
> > opposite of being evenly distributed. Your trick of inverting a pentad seems to
> > work much better...
>
> You could also try a meantone pentatonic like C-Eb-F-G-Bb-C tuned in 31-EDO, or the utonal version of my first suggestion:

If you go through the list of the seven pentatonics in 31et with the maximum number of 5-limit intervals, the only one which is proper is Meantone[5]. There are three 7-limit maximums, none proper.

Quoting Michael <djtrancendance@...>:

> There's a 13/10 between the 3/2 on the second octave and the > 12/7...but the rest
> looks great and, indeed, loaded with tonal color (prime 3,5....AND 'even' an
> added 7). :-)

No, there isn't any 13/10s. It's just the 9-limit utonal pentad.

>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "kalleaho@..." <kalleaho@...>
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 1:26:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Baby scales :-D
>
>
> Lainaus Michael <djtrancendance@...>:
>
>>> "Try:
>> 1/1
>> 9/8
>> 5/4
>> 3/2
>> 7/4
>> 2/1"
>>
>> Funny, when I use this scale in composition, it kills all sense of tonal
>> color.
>
> How about
>
> 1/1
> 6/5
> 4/3
> 3/2
> 12/7
> 2/1
>
> the minor pentad. Should have more "tonal color".
>
> Kalle
>
>
>

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
>
> Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)

Awesome, congrats! I feel even more immature now.

Michael Porcupine Sheiman Jr, perhaps?

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
>
> Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)

Woohoo!

I recommend harmonic series scales. All the dyads are
guaranteed to come out right. Soothes both mother and child.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
>
> Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)

Congrats, I'm going to be a father too, due in May! :)

Kalle

Alight! I love babies and baby pictures, so don't hesitate
to post a virtual cigar at the appropriate time or link to
some photos. I'm on facebook as /clumma and Flickr at
/photos/beefman if anyone wants to friend up. I understand
microtonalists make excellent fathers. :) -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@> wrote:
> >
> > >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
> >
> > Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)
>
> Congrats, I'm going to be a father too, due in May! :)
>
> Kalle
>

Congratulations, Michael! (Kalle, too!)

I have a lot of kids, and when they're young they seem to like big, open, consonant intervals. When they hit two different things, they like to hear a significant difference between them. (That includes siblings, by the way.) Also, when they're really young they just bang on everything at once, so I'd say you're really looking for a chord more than a scale. If it were me, I'd look for fewer wide intervals rather than more narrow ones.

Six months ago, I would have suggested a C-E-G-C chord, maybe with an A thrown in -- simple, wide, consonant. Since joining this list, I've found that I really like some of the septimal intervals, especially the minor third and the harmonic seventh, and I like those in triads with either a fifth or a fourth. So today, I might try a nice mix of typical and atypical intervals like this:

1/1
7/6
3/2
7/4
2/1

Baby harmony -- banging on them all at once -- sounds pretty good, and there are no "bad" intervals. Friends and neighbors probably won't be disturbed by the "out of tune" toy. I might add the perfect fourth, too; I don't know that I would have in the CEGC chord, because it's a little close to both the G and the E, but here the 7/6 is pretty far away, and it feels more comfortable. If you add it, your most complex interval is a 21/16: No Big Bad Wolf to be afraid of here.

Whatever you decide, please let us know what the baby likes! :)

Regards,
Jake

Awesome! Best luck, man... :-)

________________________________
From: Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 4:02:31 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Baby scales :-D

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
>
> Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)

Congrats, I'm going to be a father too, due in May! :)

Kalle

Michael wrote:

> > Right. I actually tried 5:6:7:8:9:10...but ran into critical band > > issues

I know that Carl has some recordings of the Wagogo music from Tanzania -- but how much do the rest of you know about Hukwe Zawose? Please take a listen, it's worth it.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/06-Chuo%20Cha%20Sanaa.mp3
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/tanzania09.mp3

Petr

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:
>
> Michael wrote:
>
> > > Right. I actually tried 5:6:7:8:9:10...but ran into critical band
> > > issues
>
> I know that Carl has some recordings of the Wagogo music from Tanzania --
> but how much do the rest of you know about Hukwe Zawose? Please take a
> listen, it's worth it.
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/06-Chuo%20Cha%20Sanaa.mp3
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/tanzania09.mp3
>
> Petr

Wow, didn't I heard some heavy periodicity buzz in the first piece, or was it an impression ?
;D

congrats to you as well!

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael
> <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> >
> > >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
> >
> > Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)
>
> Congrats, I'm going to be a father too, due in May! :)
>
> Kalle
>
>
>

Thanks, Chris!

Quoting "Chris Vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...>:

> congrats to you as well!
>
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael
>> <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
>> >
>> > Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)
>>
>> Congrats, I'm going to be a father too, due in May! :)
>>
>> Kalle
>>
>>
>>
>

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> >
> > >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
> >
> > Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)
>
> Congrats, I'm going to be a father too, due in May! :)
>
> Kalle

Yeah Kalle! Congratulations!

-Mike

Quoting "Mike Battaglia" <battaglia01@...>:

> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Kalle Aho > <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > >"Expecting? If so, congratulations!! -Carl"
>> >
>> > Indeed I am, and thank you! :-)
>>
>> Congrats, I'm going to be a father too, due in May! :)
>>
>> Kalle
>
> Yeah Kalle! Congratulations!
>
> -Mike

Thanks!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jacques Dudon" <fotosonix@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@> wrote:
> >
> > Michael wrote:
> >
> > > > Right. I actually tried 5:6:7:8:9:10...but ran into critical band
> > > > issues
> >
> > I know that Carl has some recordings of the Wagogo music from Tanzania --
> > but how much do the rest of you know about Hukwe Zawose? Please take a
> > listen, it's worth it.
> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/06-Chuo%20Cha%20Sanaa.mp3
> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/tanzania09.mp3
> >
> > Petr
>
> Wow, didn't I heard some heavy periodicity buzz in the first piece, or was it an impression ?
> ;D
>
It was an impression, wagogo people use thumb pianos called ilimba, there have sympathic lamellas for long resonance and pieces of spider's cocoon covering holes on the harmony table: that's the very source of that magnificent buzz! Furthermore, the tuning of ilimbas creates differnce tones that amplify that buzz, as you know well...

> > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/06-Chuo%20Cha%20Sanaa.mp3
> > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/tanzania09.mp3
> >
> > Wow, didn't I heard some heavy periodicity buzz in the first
> > piece, or was it an impression ?
> > ;D
>
> It was an impression, wagogo people use thumb pianos called ilimba,
> there have sympathic lamellas for long resonance and pieces of
> spider's cocoon covering holes on the harmony table: that's the
> very source of that magnificent buzz! Furthermore, the tuning of
> ilimbas creates differnce tones that amplify that buzz, as you
> know well...

There is more periodicity buzz in the second piece. The ilimba
and/or mbira heard in the first piece has the traditional rattle
on it, that is different. :) It is worth noting that though
Zawose intentionally used harmonic series scales, I'm aware of
no evidence they're indigenous to the region.

-Carl

"jeromedesigaud" wrote:

> wagogo people use thumb pianos called ilimba, there have sympathic > lamellas for long resonance and
> pieces of spider's cocoon covering holes on the harmony table: that's the > very source of that magnificent buzz!

Hey, man, this sounds *very* interesting, can you give any more details? I thought fibers like these were only used on instruments like the "balafon".

Petr

Carl wrote:

> It is worth noting that though Zawose intentionally used harmonic series > scales,
> I'm aware of no evidence they're indigenous to the region.

From the very few recordings of this music I was able to hear during my lifetime (I mean, outside the "Zawose family"), I suspect there may be some evidence. Not only do many ilimba players use this scale of 6:7:8:9:10:12, but unaccompanied singers seem to often do so as well -- even in the cases of "melodic speech" -- I mean that thing when you don't care about singing in a particular rhythm but you do care about singing in a particular scale, or rather speaking with intonation using a particular scale.

I mean, not that this scale is the only one (there are forms of approximate diatonic scales or things like 12:14:16:18:21:24) but this one definitely dominates.

Petr

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:
>
> Carl wrote:
>
> > It is worth noting that though Zawose intentionally used
> > harmonic series scales, I'm aware of no evidence they're
> > indigenous to the region.
>
> From the very few recordings of this music I was able to hear
> during my lifetime (I mean, outside the "Zawose family"),
> I suspect there may be some evidence.

I would very much like to hear any pre-Zawose ilimba
recordings!

> I mean, not that this scale is the only one (there are forms
> of approximate diatonic scales or things like 12:14:16:18:21:24)
> but this one definitely dominates.

Words can't express my interest in this matter. Where
can I start?

-Carl

Carl wrote:

> Words can't express my interest in this matter. Where
> can I start?

Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to find the particular recordings I was speaking of; but thanks to your question, I managed to find others which I've never heard myself before! :-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnlO37Apo8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flxoNwIxr6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFeK5A3Ggeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9s4wyxq9Co

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO6EOuKsYXc

Petr

Petr wrote:

> Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to find the particular
> recordings I was speaking of; but thanks to your question, I
> managed to find others which I've never heard myself before! :-D
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnlO37Apo8

No extended JI is evident here.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flxoNwIxr6c

Here it is. The recording is from this album
http://www.emusic.com/album/Wagogo-Entertainment-Music-Tanzanie-Tanzania-Masumbi-Musique-de-divertiss-MP3-Download/11374464.html
The imagery in the video is probably unrelated.

This is a post-Zawose album. But this is getting interesting.
Zawose was born around 1940... even if the tuning practice
doesn't predate the 1950s, it may still have arisen spontaneously
in the tribe and overtaken whatever they had been doing.
Barbershop may not be much older.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFeK5A3Ggeo

Obviously recent. There is one borderline natural 7th in
there. One starts to imagine that the higher identities are
even now continuing to arise within (previously 5-limit)
mbube singing...

According to wikipedia, mbube has lately evolved into
"isicathamiya",
"The change in name marks a transition in the style of the
music: traditionally, music described as Mbube is sung loudly
and powerfully, while isicathamiya focuses more on achieving
a harmonious blend between the voices."

Hmm!

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9s4wyxq9Co

As the comment states, taken from this recording
http://www.amazon.com/Tanzania-Wagogo-Songs-Various-Artists/dp/B00004ZBMB
released in 2000.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO6EOuKsYXc

Recorded less than a year ago.

-Carl

some really good music here.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...>wrote:

>
>
> Carl wrote:
>
> > Words can't express my interest in this matter. Where
> > can I start?
>
> Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to find the particular recordings I
>
> was speaking of; but thanks to your question, I managed to find others
> which
> I've never heard myself before! :-D
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnlO37Apo8
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flxoNwIxr6c
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFeK5A3Ggeo
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9s4wyxq9Co
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO6EOuKsYXc
>
> Petr
>
>
>

I wrote:

> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnlO37Apo8
>
> No extended JI is evident here.

What? When I heard this for the first time, I was surprised myself how well small children can approximate 5:6:7:8:9:10, and you're saying this? How is it possible that I can hear it there so clearly even without any strong "prejudices" after third or fourth listening? I see, maybe I should make an "appropriate" accompaniment to let you know what it reminds me so clearly of. But I would never believe it would be almost "unrecognizable" for you.

> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flxoNwIxr6c
>
> Here it is. The recording is from this album
> http://www.emusic.com/album/Wagogo-Entertainment-Music-Tanzanie-Tanzania-Masumbi-Musique-de-divertiss-MP3-Download/11374464.html
> The imagery in the video is probably unrelated.
>
> This is a post-Zawose album. But this is getting interesting.
> Zawose was born around 1940... even if the tuning practice
> doesn't predate the 1950s, it may still have arisen spontaneously
> in the tribe and overtaken whatever they had been doing.
> Barbershop may not be much older.

It's a pitty indeed that I have absolutely no idea where the CD I spoke of is now. The thing I meant was from around 1963-64.

> According to wikipedia, mbube has lately evolved into
> "isicathamiya",
> "The change in name marks a transition in the style of the
> music: traditionally, music described as Mbube is sung loudly
> and powerfully, while isicathamiya focuses more on achieving
> a harmonious blend between the voices."

Unfortunately, in instances where one would be keen on external links, Wikipedia is often not very rich -- the same goes for the article called "ilimba" (that I discovered yesterday) which can only make me angry that noone cares about writing more than a few sentences.

Anyway, I've asked Jerome for further explanation about the ilimba and he probably still hasn't run across my message, so I'm afraid we don't have an expert here at this time.

Petr

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:

> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnlO37Apo8
> >
> > No extended JI is evident here.
>
> What? When I heard this for the first time, I was surprised
> myself how well small children can approximate 5:6:7:8:9:10,
> and you're saying this? How is it possible that I can hear it
> there so clearly even without any strong "prejudices" after
> third or fourth listening?

I dunno. They sing melodic lines containing the identities
you mention, but the chords are unisons and parallel fourths,
and not particularly accurate at that.

-Carl

On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 4:54 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:
>
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnlO37Apo8
> > >
> > > No extended JI is evident here.
> >
> > What? When I heard this for the first time, I was surprised
> > myself how well small children can approximate 5:6:7:8:9:10,
> > and you're saying this? How is it possible that I can hear it
> > there so clearly even without any strong "prejudices" after
> > third or fourth listening?
>
> I dunno. They sing melodic lines containing the identities
> you mention, but the chords are unisons and parallel fourths,
> and not particularly accurate at that.

The 9 is noticeably sharp here, and it sounds beautiful. I almost hear
it as 16:19:20 rather than 8:9:10 sometimes.

-Mike

Carl wrote:

> I dunno. They sing melodic lines containing the identities
> you mention, but the chords are unisons and parallel fourths,

Definitely not parallel fourths. It's a typical "modal duet".

You yourself have said you know Zawose's "Chibit�" album. When you listen to the 2nd track from that and compare it to this, the similarities are just strikingly obvious.

Okay, you've persuaded me to do something.
The left channel is the original, the right channel is me.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo1.mp3
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo2.mp3

Petr

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:

> Okay, you've persuaded me to do something.
> The left channel is the original, the right channel is me.
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo1.mp3
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo2.mp3

Yes, you're playing in extended JI. You're also playing things
that aren't in the original recording. That's because there is
no extended JI harmony in the original recording.

-Carl

Carl wrote:

> Yes, you're playing in extended JI. You're also playing things
> that aren't in the original recording. That's because there is
> no extended JI harmony in the original recording.

I'm not sure if I've understood what you say the same way you mean it. Anyway, I had a clear reason why I spoke about the similarity with the 2nd track from Chibit�. One matter is the fact that the melodic approximations to 5:6:7:8:9:10 in these recordings are probably as valid as approximating 8:9:10:11:12 by "0-200-400-600-700 cents" (although these 12-EDO semitone steps are indeed the nearest ones, the mistuning is very strong but there's still a bit of something left). If you listen to Norwegian folk music which often uses overtone flutes and is sometimes accompanied by keyboard instruments, you'll know what I mean. The melodies which were "composed" using overtone flutes, not pianos, can't be played "properly" on a piano but who cares? Certainly many people don't because they know the original melody well enough to think it in their mind while a piano plays it only "approximately". And even if they don't always sing it accurately, they often view modes like 6:7:8:9:10:11:12
(or maybe rather 8:9:10:11:12:14:16) as the "model" scales for these overtone-based tunes.
Another thing is that if you didn't know anything about classical harmony and someone played you the melody of, let's say, "God Save The Queen", you might possibly play some weird accompaniment unintentionally, while if you do know something about classical harmony, you probably will have some control over the way you wish to harmonize it -- i.e. you'll obviously play something that "isn't there in the melody itself" but it's not just a sole matter of your invention, it's a matter of harmonizing with regard to the context of the melody you are given. That is probably all I can say to your statement that I'm playing things that aren't in the recording.

Petr

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@> wrote:
>
> > Okay, you've persuaded me to do something.
> > The left channel is the original, the right channel is me.
> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo1.mp3
> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo2.mp3
>
> Yes, you're playing in extended JI. You're also playing things
> that aren't in the original recording. That's because there is
> no extended JI harmony in the original recording.
>
> -Carl

I'm curious, where do you see "extended JI" in what Petr plays in here ? And what's your definition of extended JI ?
- - - -
Jacques

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:
>
> Carl wrote:
>
> > Yes, you're playing in extended JI. You're also playing things
> > that aren't in the original recording. That's because there is
> > no extended JI harmony in the original recording.
>
> I'm not sure if I've understood what you say the same way you mean it.
> Anyway, I had a clear reason why I spoke about the similarity with the 2nd
> track from Chibité. One matter is the fact that the melodic approximations
> to 5:6:7:8:9:10 in these recordings are probably as valid as approximating
> 8:9:10:11:12 by "0-200-400-600-700 cents" (although these 12-EDO semitone
> steps are indeed the nearest ones, the mistuning is very strong but there's
> still a bit of something left). If you listen to Norwegian folk music which
> often uses overtone flutes and is sometimes accompanied by keyboard
> instruments, you'll know what I mean.

Actually I don't agree totally with this. All good Norvegian or Swedish musicians know the "salgflojt" (overtone flute) is not a tempered instrument, and I heard recordings where string instruments follow its quartertones precisely (and at least voices and violins can). If some don't care it may be true also, I don't know. On another hand something I can add on the matter, as a harmonic fute maker and player myself, is that stricly speaking, tielinkas, koncovkas, salgflojts etc. do not play exactly a overtone scale. For some acoustic reason, the odd harmonics 3 5 7 11 13 15 are always some comma above their theorical position compared to the even harmonics 4 6 8 10 12 14 16. It changes something for the 11th harmonic that could, as you said, be "thought" as a tritone - but not quite and not for all musicians.
- - - -
Jacques

To my modest opinion, this scale is obviously indigenous to that cultural region, as far as wagogo people play mouthbows very well, I mean using the overtone series up to the 10th partial. Moreover, Gerhard Kubik in his Theory of Afican Music, writes it down page 187.
I'm sorry that this brilliant man didn't use just intonation, but his work is a wonderful way to start working on this matter.

As I love wagogo's music, I made myself a guitar tuned on this system, (including 11th, which works also very well in this music)with movable independent frets. The open tuning of this guitar is 2:3:4:5:6:7 and it sounds so wagogoish! If you want I can send you sounds of this marvelous scale which fits perfectly for babies...

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@> wrote:
> >
> > Carl wrote:
> >
> > > It is worth noting that though Zawose intentionally used
> > > harmonic series scales, I'm aware of no evidence they're
> > > indigenous to the region.
> >
> > From the very few recordings of this music I was able to hear
> > during my lifetime (I mean, outside the "Zawose family"),
> > I suspect there may be some evidence.
>
> I would very much like to hear any pre-Zawose ilimba
> recordings!
>
> > I mean, not that this scale is the only one (there are forms
> > of approximate diatonic scales or things like 12:14:16:18:21:24)
> > but this one definitely dominates.
>
> Words can't express my interest in this matter. Where
> can I start?
>
> -Carl
>

You could listen more here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3D_bEOgZXg
The account called 8sacredroot8 sent tunes from an album called:
Tanzania - Masumbi: Wagogo Entertainment Music
and you can also listen:
Tanzania: Wagogo Songs
both have a very rich booklet and are available at Amazon.
I'm sorry not to know much more things about ilimbas...

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:
>
> Carl wrote:
>
> > Words can't express my interest in this matter. Where
> > can I start?
>
> Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to find the particular recordings I
> was speaking of; but thanks to your question, I managed to find others which
> I've never heard myself before! :-D
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnlO37Apo8
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flxoNwIxr6c
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFeK5A3Ggeo
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9s4wyxq9Co
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO6EOuKsYXc
>
> Petr
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jacques Dudon" <fotosonix@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@> wrote:
> >
> > > Okay, you've persuaded me to do something.
> > > The left channel is the original, the right channel is me.
> > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo1.mp3
> > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo2.mp3
> >
> > Yes, you're playing in extended JI. You're also playing things
> > that aren't in the original recording. That's because there is
> > no extended JI harmony in the original recording.
> >
> > -Carl
>
>
> I'm curious, where do you see "extended JI" in what Petr plays in here ? And what's your definition of extended JI ?
> - - - -
> Jacques

Oh yes of course ! (sorry, it took me some time to understand), you consider 7-limit as "extended JI", right ?
I am simply not used to think that way. Actually, who decided that in the first place ?
That's not what most JI musicians think themselves.
Including myself, and I have good reasons to consider that extended JI does not starts (at least) before 17-limit.
- - - - - -
Jacques

Jacques wrote:

> Actually I don't agree totally with this. All good Norvegian or Swedish
> musicians know the "salgflojt" (overtone flute) is not a tempered > instrument,
> and I heard recordings where string instruments follow its quartertones
> precisely (and at least voices and violins can). If some don't care it may > be
> true also, I don't know.

You've mysunderstood my point. If you compose a melody using an overtone flute, you'll get used to the "untempered" intervals of that particular melody. But if people then get to know your melody well enough and you play it to them "approximately" on a piano, many will think of it as essentially the same thing, only with subtle deviations, although the deviations are actually not subtle -- certainly they won't find the differences (between the piano version and the overtone flute version) as significant as the difference between C and C#, for example, because they've already got familiar with the original melodic context.

> On another hand something I can add on the matter, as a
> harmonic fute maker and player myself, is that stricly speaking, > tielinkas,
> koncovkas, salgflojts etc. do not play exactly a overtone scale. For some
> acoustic reason, the odd harmonics 3 5 7 11 13 15 are always some comma > above
> their theorical position compared to the even harmonics 4 6 8 10 12 14 16.

That's the end correction issue. The effective length of an open pipe is actually a bit longer than its actual length. Paul Erlich recommended covering the other end with something else than your hand so that you could make the closed pipe a bit longer and possibly compensate for the effect.

BTW: The Wagogo musicians also use overtone flutes which they call "filimbi". Unfortunately, I was unable to find any details about these.

Speaking of overtone flutes, maybe you would like this short excerpt -- FYI, the flute's pitch was originally an octave higher and was lowered during _post-processing":
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/parizek-2003.mp3

Petr

> Petr wrote:
>
> (Jacques) :
> > Actually I don't agree totally with this. All good Norvegian or > Swedish
> > musicians know the "salgflojt" (overtone flute) is not a tempered
> > instrument,
> > and I heard recordings where string instruments follow its > quartertones
> > precisely (and at least voices and violins can). If some don't > care it may
> > be
> > true also, I don't know.
>
> You've mysunderstood my point. If you compose a melody using an > overtone
> flute, you'll get used to the "untempered" intervals of that > particular
> melody. But if people then get to know your melody well enough and > you play
> it to them "approximately" on a piano, many will think of it as > essentially
> the same thing, only with subtle deviations, although the > deviations are
> actually not subtle -- certainly they won't find the differences > (between
> the piano version and the overtone flute version) as significant as > the
> difference between C and C#, for example, because they've already got
> familiar with the original melodic context.

Certainly ; but my objection was just on the comparison you make when you say :
> the melodic approximations
> to 5:6:7:8:9:10 in these recordings are probably as valid as approximating
> 8:9:10:11:12 by "0-200-400-600-700 cents",
giving the overtone flute in example.
The approximation (5:6:7:8:9:10) you make of these Tanzanian songs, if ever it is one, is completely valid, the other much less considering that the Scandinavian musicians themselves (some of them) are conscious of the difference. Unfortunately I don't recall the name of the group, but I heard the music of one of the most famous Swedish (or Norvegian ?) folk groups of the new generation, that integrate intelligently the salgflojt quartertones with the other string instruments.

> > On another hand something I can add on the matter, as a
> > harmonic fute maker and player myself, is that stricly speaking,
> > tielinkas,
> > koncovkas, salgflojts etc. do not play exactly a overtone scale. > For some
> > acoustic reason, the odd harmonics 3 5 7 11 13 15 are always some > comma
> > above
> > their theorical position compared to the even harmonics 4 6 8 10 > 12 14 16.
>
> That's the end correction issue. The effective length of an open > pipe is
> actually a bit longer than its actual length. Paul Erlich recommended
> covering the other end with something else than your hand so that > you could
> make the closed pipe a bit longer and possibly compensate for the > effect.

I corrected some flutes successfully by using a larger tube at the end, forming a little bell, but I rather accepted instead the scale the way it comes on all my flutes. I am also adding a "semitone key" hole in most of them (giving roughly a 17/16), that allows with one flute 3 different scales. Quite jazzy.

> BTW: The Wagogo musicians also use overtone flutes which they call
> "filimbi". Unfortunately, I was unable to find any details about > these.

Here is one simple filimbi piece by Hukwe Zawase (select the 3rd piece, "Furuti")
http://www.myspace.com/hukwezawose
(5:6:7:8:9:10 again)

> Speaking of overtone flutes, maybe you would like this short > excerpt -- FYI,
> the flute's pitch was originally an octave higher and was lowered > during
> _post-processing":
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/parizek-2003.mp3
>
> Petr

That's a very pleasant music ! The sound texture you have with this flute is absolutely charming.
Sounds like it has a quite important inside diameter (like 20 mm ?), but that may be the pitch effect.
- - - - - - - -
Jacques

Jacques wrote:

> The approximation (5:6:7:8:9:10) you make of these Tanzanian songs, if > ever it is one, is completely valid, the
> other much less considering that the Scandinavian
> musicians themselves (some of them) are conscious of the difference.

It's really weird how two people can comprehensively misunderstand each other. Now I see you've misunderstood the first point I was making, not the second one, since you have swapped the roles of the sung intervals and the approximated ones. For many Wagogo musicians, the "model" scale is 5:6:7:8:9:10 (or 6:7:8:9:10:12) and they tune this "linear pentatonic" on many of their "fixed-pitched" instruments. When they play the "izeze" (a fretless bowed instrument) or when they sing, obviously, then they approximate this linear pentatonic as much as they care to. The point I was making was that I was surprised how well those children succeeded in doing this and that even if an "uninformed" musician may not be sure what intervals they were trying to sing, I'm quite certain that the "model" melody which they were thinking of was meant to be in this scale. It's similar to European children trying to sing in 12-EDO.

> Unfortunately I don't recall the name of the group, but I heard the music > of one of
> the most famous Swedish (or Norvegian ?) folk groups of the new > generation, that integrate intelligently the
> salgflojt quartertones with the other string
> instruments.

Possibly Hedningarna? Those are Swedish as well. Then there's someone from Finland who has used overtone flutes -- I think her name was something like Joutsenlahti or Joussenlahti or some such.

> I corrected some flutes successfully by using a larger tube at the end, > forming a little bell,

Wow, didn't the resonances get mistuned too much from proper harmonics then? Recently, I was asking my father (who is a "non-musician") to do such a thing with a plastic pipe and some of the resonances got almost a quartertone away. I thought this was because of the different diameters of the two pipes.

> but I rather accepted
> instead the scale the way it comes
> on all my flutes. I am also adding a "semitone key" hole in most of them > (giving roughly a 17/16), that allows with
> one flute 3 different scales. Quite
> jazzy.

This sounds intriguing. Do you have some recordings of these?

Also, what do you think about possibly extending the shift to something like 9/8 rather than 17/16?

> That's a very pleasant music ! The sound texture you have with this flute > is absolutely charming.

Thanks for such a positive comment. I'll tell you something. When I began learning to play this instrument back in 2003 (not the imaginary one, of course, but the one which sounds an octave higher), the tones were overlapping heavily and I thought I would never be able to play this thing. Anyway, within a few weeks of frequent practicing, I almost felt in love with its sound and, all of a sudden, I just didn't want to stop. I was playing it "day and night" and later I was even taking it to the boarding house during the last year of my secondary school studies (you see, I just didn't want to go anywhere without my overtone flute :-D). So I'm glad you liked it.

> Sounds like it has a quite important inside diameter (like 20 mm ?), but > that may be the pitch effect.

The real flute has an inside diameter of ~16 mm. Perhaps if you doubled all the quantities (including the diameter and the length and everything), maybe you would then get something like the sound on the recording, who knows?

I would, anyway, be interested if it's possible to somehow find out what the largest overtone flute ever made was like, in the world. :-)

Petr

Hi Petr,

> > Yes, you're playing in extended JI. You're also playing things
> > that aren't in the original recording. That's because there is
> > no extended JI harmony in the original recording.
>
[snip]
> One matter is the fact that the melodic approximations
> to 5:6:7:8:9:10 in these recordings are probably as valid as
> approximating 8:9:10:11:12 by "0-200-400-600-700 cents"
> (although these 12-EDO semitone steps are indeed the nearest
> ones, the mistuning is very strong but there's still a bit of
> something left).

Yes, melodic JI in this video. The 7 is noticeably flat of
where it would be in 12-ET. Otherwise the intonation is very
rough, including harmonic unisons.

However from the other videos I am rethinking my original
position on the uniqueness of Zawose's intonation. Or maybe
it was unique at first, but still represents 'natural'
development of extended JI on the African continent.

I have a lot of recordings from Africa -- mbira, balafon,
choral singing, tribal singing, and so on. I had never heard
extended JI harmony in them until Zawose, so I assumed he
did it intentional. I wonder if he had been interviewed
about it?

The intonation I had heard in the past was either 5-limit
diatonic (in the case of mbube choral styles -- clearly
imported from Europe) or generic pentatonic and heptatonic
type scales with steps closer to ET than in harmonic series.

-Carl

Hi Jacques,

> > > Okay, you've persuaded me to do something.
> > > The left channel is the original, the right channel is me.
> > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo1.mp3
> > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/wagogo2.mp3
> >
> > Yes, you're playing in extended JI.
[snip]
>
> I'm curious, where do you see "extended JI" in what Petr plays
> in here ? And what's your definition of extended JI ?

Not my definition, but a very widely accepted one long predating
this list: harmonic intonation involving identities > 5.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jacques Dudon" <fotosonix@...> wrote:

> On another hand something I can add on the matter, as a harmonic
> fute maker and player myself, is that stricly speaking, tielinkas,
> koncovkas, salgflojts etc. do not play exactly a overtone scale.
> For some acoustic reason, the odd harmonics 3 5 7 11 13 15 are
> always some comma above their theorical position compared to the
> even harmonics 4 6 8 10 12 14 16.

I used to play with Denny his "fipple pipes" -- aluminum pipes
with a recorder mouthpiece attached. I can confirm they do not
produce a perfect overtone intonation. I have not noticed
deviation between odd and even partials, but I have noticed
partials above 8 or so are sharp. I never measured their
intonation precisely, just made this observation, so you may
well be right that the odd harmonics suffer more (or there may
be a difference between fipple pipes and more traditional kinds
of overtone flute). -Carl

Jacques wrote:

> Oh yes of course ! (sorry, it took me some time to understand),
> you consider 7-limit as "extended JI", right ? I am simply not
> used to think that way. Actually, who decided that in the first
> place ?

It is rather dumb, but in the literature (at least prior to
the internet), "just intonation" was conflated with what we
would call 5-limit just intonation. The term "extneded JI"
has been used by Wendy Carlos, among others. It is still
useful in the sense that 5-limit JI is extremely common
across the world (since the colonial era at least), whereas
anything greater is extremely rare. In fact Wagogoan music
may be only the second time it has ever arisen.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:
>
> That's the end correction issue. The effective length of an open
> pipe is actually a bit longer than its actual length.
[snip]

More generally, an overdriven wind instrument responds in its
natural modes, which can be quite inharmonic. Now, a straight
flute is probably pretty close to harmonic, but when we get
into brass instruments with twists and so on... it is a common
error to assume their melodic intonation is naturally Just.

> Speaking of overtone flutes, maybe you would like this short
> excerpt -- FYI, the flute's pitch was originally an octave
> higher and was lowered during _post-processing":
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8497979/parizek-2003.mp3

What a fantastic sound!!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:

> It's really weird how two people can comprehensively misunderstand each
> other.

Some confusions can be interesting ; I will meditate on those when I can think, perhaps...

> > I corrected some flutes successfully by using a larger tube at the end,
> > forming a little bell,
>
> Wow, didn't the resonances get mistuned too much from proper harmonics then?

No, it works, I was surprised of that myself (the end inside diameter was just a few mm larger). But having a larger opening was making these flutes less pleasant to play and finally not really worth the trouble. This error between even and odd harmonics makes a nice scale anyway.

> Recently, I was asking my father (who is a "non-musician") to do such a
> thing with a plastic pipe and some of the resonances got almost a
> quartertone away. I thought this was because of the different diameters of
> the two pipes.
>
> > but I rather accepted
> > instead the scale the way it comes
> > on all my flutes. I am also adding a "semitone key" hole in most of them
> > (giving roughly a 17/16), that allows with
> > one flute 3 different scales. Quite
> > jazzy.
>
> This sounds intriguing. Do you have some recordings of these?

I should have some - I will try to find one tomorrow.

> Also, what do you think about possibly extending the shift to something like
> 9/8 rather than 17/16?

I tried. You end up with more commas if I remember well, but you can do some microtonal music with that ! The semitone is more trivial but gives you a decent Basant Mukhari mode (C C# E F G G# Bb), and in bonus a third funny scale by playing on the end hole while leaving the semitone hole open. You should try it.

>
> > That's a very pleasant music ! The sound texture you have with this flute
> > is absolutely charming.
>
> Thanks for such a positive comment. I'll tell you something. When I began
> learning to play this instrument back in 2003 (not the imaginary one, of
> course, but the one which sounds an octave higher), the tones were
> overlapping heavily and I thought I would never be able to play this thing.
> Anyway, within a few weeks of frequent practicing, I almost felt in love
> with its sound and, all of a sudden, I just didn't want to stop. I was
> playing it "day and night" and later I was even taking it to the boarding
> house during the last year of my secondary school studies (you see, I just
> didn't want to go anywhere without my overtone flute :-D). So I'm glad you
> liked it.
>
> > Sounds like it has a quite important inside diameter (like 20 mm ?), but
> > that may be the pitch effect.
>
> The real flute has an inside diameter of ~16 mm. Perhaps if you doubled all
> the quantities (including the diameter and the length and everything), maybe
> you would then get something like the sound on the recording, who knows?

Probably, but the pitch is a good trick, sounds like if the flute was much larger.

> I would, anyway, be interested if it's possible to somehow find out what the
> largest overtone flute ever made was like, in the world. :-)
>
> Petr

I remember one guy who had this project to make a flute you would be able to walk inside. I hope he was not blowing it, or the infratones would have probably kill the visitors rightaway ! :-(
- - - -
Jacques

Carl wrote:

> More generally, an overdriven wind instrument responds in its
> natural modes, which can be quite inharmonic. Now, a straight
> flute is probably pretty close to harmonic, but when we get
> into brass instruments with twists and so on... it is a common
> error to assume their melodic intonation is naturally Just.

Not sure if both of us are talking about the same thing. More here:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/musFAQ.html#endeffect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_correction

Petr