Ares[12]

In response to a call for a 12-note 11-limit scale on MMM I posted Thrush[12], the 126/125&176/175 hobbit. This resulted in such a complete absence of interest I've decided the need is acute and am giving Ares[12], the 64/63&100/99 hobbit here. It's for fans of sharp fifths only, but that may be you!

! ares12.scl
Ares[12] (64/63&100/99) hobbit, POTE tuning
12
!
98.86242
172.07703
318.23612
391.45073
490.31315
563.52776
709.68685
808.54927
881.76388
1027.92297
1101.13758
1200.00000
!
!! preares12.scl
! Ares[12] 5-limit transversal = ariel2.scl
! 12
!!
! 16/15
! 10/9
! 6/5
! 5/4
! 4/3
! 25/18
! 3/2
! 8/5
! 5/3
! 9/5
! 15/8
! 2/1

Here is a "lesfip scale" derived from it:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Lesfip+scales

! ares12opt.scl
Lesfip scale derived from Ares[12], 13 cents, 11-limit
12
!
98.47604
165.71169
321.40156
392.10465
485.69654
551.05641
711.71088
809.46455
871.65772
1030.05511
1099.72190
1200.00000

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> In response to a call for a 12-note 11-limit scale on MMM I posted Thrush[12], the 126/125&176/175 hobbit. This resulted in such a complete absence of interest I've decided the need is acute and am giving Ares[12], the 64/63&100/99 hobbit, here. It's for fans of sharp fifths only, but that may be you!

I forgot to add that fans of equal temperament may prefer to consider this to be 436343643634. But however your tune it, it fits on your keyboard.

>"! ares12opt.scl
Lesfip scale derived from Ares[12], 13 cents, 11-limit
12
!
98.47604
165.71169
321.40156
392.10465
485.69654
551.05641
711.71088
809.46455
871.65772
1030.05511
1099.72190
1200.00000

OK, I'm staring at the dyadic relationships in this scale...and I'm amazed how
stable it looks while retaining some very unique dyads vis-a-vis meantone-like
tunings I've seen.... :-)

The original scale had a fraction that seemed off IE 25/18...but the
least-squares optimized version looks excellent to me and seems to merge it
toward 11/8 (a fairly good 11-limit dyad IMVHO) while keeping its strong
relationship with other tones. In fact...the real new mystery (in a good way)
to this scale is the 11/8-ish tone and the dyads formed from it.
Ares also has a bunch of strong low-limit dyadic relations, but a few nifty
higher limit ones many of which stem in relation to the 25/18 interval. I can
only guess due to how much they are outweighed by lower-limit ones the overall
feel would be as on more balanced than 12TET...especially considering how much
it looks like John Sullivan's "Blue Temperament", which I've already heard and
think sounds very well balanced.

One bizarre (in a good way!) thing is how this tuning appears to manage to
keep virtually all of the 5ths either a very small "tad" above or below
pure...and doesn't have to "resort to alternative 5ths" to get the unique
25/18-ish interval or the unique not-in-12TET intervals around it (IE the cool
8/7-ish interval between 321 and 551 cents) in the least means squared version.

I really wonder how this fairs vis-a-vis quarter comma meantone...I actually
wouldn't be too surprised if many listeners, even those accustomed to 12TET,
thought this scale sounded/felt "less 'microtonal'/less tense" than 12TET.

Looking at the scale in rational numbers form I notice it is rather close to
John Sullivan's 12-tone tuning (which I've heard and already know I enjoy),
which is described on http://johnsmusic7.com/:

John Sullivan's "Blue Temperament": 1/1 15/14 9/8 6/5 5/4 4/3 7/5 3/2
8/5 5/3 9/5 15/8 2/1
Ares: 1/1 16/15 10/9 6/5 5/4 4/3
25/18 3/2 8/5 5/3 9/5 15/8 2/1

This sort of begs the question (ahem) what would happen if Chris re-tuned
his "Blue Temperament" pieces to "Ares least means squared"?

This definitely goes on my "to try" list.......

>"It's for fans of sharp fifths only, but that may be you!"
Funny, doesn't look that sharp to me...how sharp is the sharpest fifth in the
least means squared version?
To me (yes, I'm a slacker far as allowing sharp fifths) anything under about
50/33 is fairly Kosher far as sharpness of fifths. What is/are the generators
to this scale?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> >"It's for fans of sharp fifths only, but that may be you!"
> Funny, doesn't look that sharp to me...how sharp is the sharpest fifth in the
> least means squared version?

720.477 cents, delightful to fans of 5-et but pretty damned sharp to me. But it's exceptional, all other fifths are much less sharp. There are also some 16/11 intervals in the circle of "fifths". Brave souls are encouraged to play the standard Western repertoire in this scale, or to just take a midi file, and use Scala to retune it.

> To me (yes, I'm a slacker far as allowing sharp fifths) anything under about
> 50/33 is fairly Kosher far as sharpness of fifths. What is/are the generators
> to this scale?

The lesfip scale isn't regular; the generators for the hobbit can be taken to be the 5-limit (2, 3 and 5.)

Me>"how sharp is the sharpest fifth in the least means squared version?"
Gene>"720.477 cents, delightful to fans of 5-et but pretty damned sharp to me."
My ear starts tipping over about 715.74 cents....even for me that's a bit too
sharp (about 13 cents or so sharp) and I agree the 18 or so cents sharp for that
one dyad is a bit extreme even for me.

>"But it's exceptional, all other fifths are much less sharp."
Indeed, I'm amazed how many virtually perfect fifths this (Ares) tuning has
without distorting other dyadic relationships.

>"There are also some 16/11 intervals in the circle of "fifths"."
Must have missed those, any clue which dyads they are from/to? It's a
crying shame as 16/11's sting to my ears...not one of the better "alternative
fifths" in my mind. I also have the same issue with Ptolemy's Homalon scales,
those darn 16/11's occupying the circle of (and occasionally not really a)
fifth(s).

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> Brave souls are encouraged to play the standard Western repertoire in this scale, or to just take a midi file, and use Scala to retune it.

God will probably punish me for it, but I'm listening to the Waldstein sonata in the Ares lesfip right now. Someone tune that piano!

Gene>"God will probably punish me for it, but I'm listening to the Waldstein
sonata in the Ares lesfip right now."

Hey, if you're trying to have a seance and get Beethoven angry enough to come
back from the dead...it just might work! :-D

Michael>"especially considering how much it looks like John Sullivan's "Blue Temperament", which I've already heard and think sounds very well balanced"

Ares12opt looks nothing like Blue Temperament, they are very different from each other.

The scale you listed is not Blue Temperament, it's Blue Just.

John.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"! ares12opt.scl
> Lesfip scale derived from Ares[12], 13 cents, 11-limit
> 12
> !
> 98.47604
> 165.71169
> 321.40156
> 392.10465
> 485.69654
> 551.05641
> 711.71088
> 809.46455
> 871.65772
> 1030.05511
> 1099.72190
> 1200.00000
>
> OK, I'm staring at the dyadic relationships in this scale...and I'm amazed how
> stable it looks while retaining some very unique dyads vis-a-vis meantone-like
> tunings I've seen.... :-)
>
> The original scale had a fraction that seemed off IE 25/18...but the
> least-squares optimized version looks excellent to me and seems to merge it
> toward 11/8 (a fairly good 11-limit dyad IMVHO) while keeping its strong
> relationship with other tones. In fact...the real new mystery (in a good way)
> to this scale is the 11/8-ish tone and the dyads formed from it.
> Ares also has a bunch of strong low-limit dyadic relations, but a few nifty
> higher limit ones many of which stem in relation to the 25/18 interval. I can
> only guess due to how much they are outweighed by lower-limit ones the overall
> feel would be as on more balanced than 12TET...especially considering how much
> it looks like John Sullivan's "Blue Temperament", which I've already heard and
> think sounds very well balanced.
>
> One bizarre (in a good way!) thing is how this tuning appears to manage to
> keep virtually all of the 5ths either a very small "tad" above or below
> pure...and doesn't have to "resort to alternative 5ths" to get the unique
> 25/18-ish interval or the unique not-in-12TET intervals around it (IE the cool
> 8/7-ish interval between 321 and 551 cents) in the least means squared version.
>
>
> I really wonder how this fairs vis-a-vis quarter comma meantone...I actually
> wouldn't be too surprised if many listeners, even those accustomed to 12TET,
> thought this scale sounded/felt "less 'microtonal'/less tense" than 12TET.
>
> Looking at the scale in rational numbers form I notice it is rather close to
> John Sullivan's 12-tone tuning (which I've heard and already know I enjoy),
> which is described on http://johnsmusic7.com/:
>
> John Sullivan's "Blue Temperament": 1/1 15/14 9/8 6/5 5/4 4/3 7/5 3/2
> 8/5 5/3 9/5 15/8 2/1
> Ares: 1/1 16/15 10/9 6/5 5/4 4/3
> 25/18 3/2 8/5 5/3 9/5 15/8 2/1
>
> This sort of begs the question (ahem) what would happen if Chris re-tuned
> his "Blue Temperament" pieces to "Ares least means squared"?
>
> This definitely goes on my "to try" list.......
>
> >"It's for fans of sharp fifths only, but that may be you!"
> Funny, doesn't look that sharp to me...how sharp is the sharpest fifth in the
> least means squared version?
> To me (yes, I'm a slacker far as allowing sharp fifths) anything under about
> 50/33 is fairly Kosher far as sharpness of fifths. What is/are the generators
> to this scale?
>

John>"Ares12opt looks nothing like Blue Temperament, they are very different
from each other.
The scale you listed is not Blue Temperament, it's Blue Just."

In that case...it looks rather similar to me at first glance to Blue Just
(and the scale I stated is indeed "Blue Just" and not "Blue Temperament"). What
(if any) do you think the major differences between Blue Just and Ares (in
rational/JI form) are?

I think I understand, so you give the just and tempered versions of your
scale completely different names and "Blue" refers to the 12-tone version, not
any of the modes under it.

To clarify...what are the 7-tone modes under A) Blue Just and B) Blue
Temperament? I recall your having two scales you favored under the Just scale
(if not also the tempered scale)... I guess you could say I'm admittedly
getting confused because now you have several different version of you scale and
modes and have changed your name for a number of these IE I wonder whatever
happened to "Natural Pan Temperament" and what the correct/new equivalent is?

I understand people get confused with names easily though...and try not to
hold them to the flame about it. My favored self-designed scale systems are
called Dimension^2 (12 tone tempered version) and Dimension (9 tone tempered
version which is a subset of the 12-tone version intended to be easier to
use)...and even with just two scales and two names people get confused between
them a lot.

I only seem to have Thrush[15]

could you re-post Thrush[12]?

Thanks,

Chris

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 8:56 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

>
>
> In response to a call for a 12-note 11-limit scale on MMM I posted
> Thrush[12], the 126/125&176/175 hobbit. This resulted in such a complete
> absence of interest I've decided the need is acute and am giving Ares[12],
> the 64/63&100/99 hobbit here. It's for fans of sharp fifths only, but that
> may be you!
>
> ! ares12.scl
> Ares[12] (64/63&100/99) hobbit, POTE tuning
> 12
> !
> 98.86242
> 172.07703
> 318.23612
> 391.45073
> 490.31315
> 563.52776
> 709.68685
> 808.54927
> 881.76388
> 1027.92297
> 1101.13758
> 1200.00000
> !
> !! preares12.scl
> ! Ares[12] 5-limit transversal = ariel2.scl
> ! 12
> !!
> ! 16/15
> ! 10/9
> ! 6/5
> ! 5/4
> ! 4/3
> ! 25/18
> ! 3/2
> ! 8/5
> ! 5/3
> ! 9/5
> ! 15/8
> ! 2/1
>
> Here is a "lesfip scale" derived from it:
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Lesfip+scales
>
> ! ares12opt.scl
> Lesfip scale derived from Ares[12], 13 cents, 11-limit
> 12
> !
> 98.47604
> 165.71169
> 321.40156
> 392.10465
> 485.69654
> 551.05641
> 711.71088
> 809.46455
> 871.65772
> 1030.05511
> 1099.72190
> 1200.00000
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I only seem to have Thrush[15]
>
> could you re-post Thrush[12]?

! thrush12.scl
Thrush[12] (126/125, 176/175) hobbit in the POTE tuning
12
!
80.43583
230.31897
310.75480
391.19062
498.05458
578.49041
701.94542
808.80938
889.24520
969.68103
1119.56417
1200.00000
!
!! prethrush12.scl
! Thrush[12] 5-limit transversal
! 12
!!
! 25/24
! 144/125
! 6/5
! 5/4
! 4/3
! 25/18
! 3/2
! 8/5
! 5/3
! 125/72
! 48/25
! 2/1

Thank you!!

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:19 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > I only seem to have Thrush[15]
> >
> > could you re-post Thrush[12]?
>
> ! thrush12.scl
> Thrush[12] (126/125, 176/175) hobbit in the POTE tuning
> 12
> !
> 80.43583
> 230.31897
> 310.75480
> 391.19062
> 498.05458
> 578.49041
> 701.94542
> 808.80938
> 889.24520
> 969.68103
> 1119.56417
> 1200.00000
> !
> !! prethrush12.scl
> ! Thrush[12] 5-limit transversal
> ! 12
> !!
> ! 25/24
> ! 144/125
>
> ! 6/5
> ! 5/4
> ! 4/3
> ! 25/18
> ! 3/2
> ! 8/5
> ! 5/3
> ! 125/72
> ! 48/25
> ! 2/1
>
>
>