Re: [tuning] Donso Ngoni Songs from the Tambacounda

Gerald!

Gerald Eskelin wrote

> Yes, David, I agree enthusiastically. He does have a wonderful ear. I
> believe, however, that it is not uncommon for humans to develop musical ears
> that rival electronic tuners, particularly in regard to tuning a pentatonic
> instrument.

I will totally agree with this and have seen indian musicians have astonishing
pitch perception, not limited to pentatonic either. On the other hand, as I
pointed out that older measurements of scales in Africa point toward scales
developed in other directions. That the assumption that if a person was
sensitive to acoustic relationships they would tune to simple ratios is a
cultural bias. For one thing for an outdoor instrument, these simple ratios
would be softer, which if one wanted to be heard might not be ideal. Also the
slight controlled beating of intervals (something I love) might be of musical
value to these people. As something that is little explored in western music ,
this acoustic phenomenon might be overlooked to our own insensitivity
Even though one finds intervals at time close to 4/3s and 3/2s in their
scales, one has to acknowledge their deliberate avoidance of them in other
parts of the same series. The understanding of these I do not believe is found
in the idea that our standards are universal. That our music developed along
the lines it did because of the early discovery of its relationships with
numbers, might have caused us to tune a deaf ear to those phenomenon that have
a relationship different from our historical numerical applications.

> Paul's question regarding whether his instrument was close to
> Pythagorean tuning was very appropriate to this point. Pentatonic music
> systems are so universal among primitive cultures that one must consider the
> likelihood that these arise out of aural sensitivity to acoustic
> relationships.

I could venture to say that the pythagorean pentatonic is not the universal
form nor is the pentatonic of whole tones and minor thirds. There are those
animals like Pelog, slendro with versions of LLSLS intervals, and subharmonic
flutes with pentatonic scales that are as bountiful.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote,

>For one thing for an outdoor instrument, these simple ratios would be
softer,

Why?

>which if one wanted to be heard might not be ideal.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >For one thing for an outdoor instrument, these simple ratios would be
> softer,
>
> Why?

When you tune, one of the way you can tell you are in tune is the volume
drops. Two people playing a 256/245 apart are louder than 2 playing a
unison. It gets into masking effects.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote,

>When you tune, one of the way you can tell you are in tune is the volume
drops. Two people playing a 256/245 apart are louder than 2 >playing a
unison. It gets into masking effects.

Masking effects? Go ahead . . . Two people playing exactly in unison can
either cancel each other out completely or constructively interfere at 4
times the energy of a single player, depending on relative phase. Meanwhile,
for a complex or irrational ratio, you will simply get 2 times the energy of
a single player. Masking effects and such would not make much of an
additional difference when comparing microtonal differences in tuning, say
between just and 7-tET tunings for intervals in pentatonic scales. Masking
is important when comparing intervals of very different sizes.

Paul!
Yes the physics books tells us that such things are true , but I have
always been aided by the volume drop when tuning. Never have i heard a unison
increase in volume even though it is theoretically possible, so they say.
Intervals that beat I have always perceived as louder than those that didn't..
As someone who has had to play in very loud environments without amplification,
let me say that those tunings that incorporate beats have been the most
successful. I have never heard any influence of phase that i can think of.
There is the implication in your post of African tunings using 7 ET. This
view is supported by Andrew Tracy as well as others. Even many of the tribes
say that this is what they are trying to do. When measured (see Hugh Tracy's
book on the chopi for example) the measurement do not uphold this except by the
wildest of imagination. In fact Mavila which is considered the best tuning of
the Chopi by the Chopi is the tuning that is the farthest from 7 Et out of all
the Chopi tunings. Possibly Equal means something to them maybe equal as
function. To imply that they do not know or can hear the difference i find
Racist in implication. Among the Chopi they can tune by ear there base pitch
without and reference a "tonic" base pitch of 260. This shows that they are
tuning exactly the pitches that they hear. The same situation hold true in
Indonesia. Out of coincidence I can find Burmese Harp Music that resembles
Chopi tunings closer than either one resembles 7 ET.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >When you tune, one of the way you can tell you are in tune is the volume
> drops. Two people playing a 256/245 apart are louder than 2 >playing a
> unison. It gets into masking effects.
>
> Masking effects? Go ahead . . . Two people playing exactly in unison can
> either cancel each other out completely or constructively interfere at 4
> times the energy of a single player, depending on relative phase. Meanwhile,
> for a complex or irrational ratio, you will simply get 2 times the energy of
> a single player. Masking effects and such would not make much of an
> additional difference when comparing microtonal differences in tuning, say
> between just and 7-tET tunings for intervals in pentatonic scales. Masking
> is important when comparing intervals of very different sizes.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

--- In tuning@onelist.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Paul!
> Yes the physics books tells us that such things are true , but
I have
> always been aided by the volume drop when tuning. Never have i
heard a unison
> increase in volume even though it is theoretically possible, so
they say.
> Intervals that beat I have always perceived as louder than those
that didn't..
> As someone who has had to play in very loud environments without
amplification,
> let me say that those tunings that incorporate beats have been the
most
> successful.

Perhaps you are responding to _maximum_ volume rather than _average_
volume.

> I have never heard any influence of phase that i can think of.

Perhaps because you use acoustic instruments, which will never be
tuned to an _exact_ unison or have exacly identical waveforms. With
electronic instruments, the relative phases of tones in a unison
becomes crucial.

> There is the implication in your post of African tunings using
7 ET.

I wasn't implying that any more than I was implying that African
tunings use just intonation.