Gathering Data

Alright, I'm shutting up after this for a while, and I don't intend to respond to any of the responses to this since I'm just trying to gather data and not have any more discussion. BUT: after the recent discussion of "happy minor" songs and "sad major" songs, I would like to request people who really don't believe major and minor have anything to do with happy and sad to "retune" their favorite "happy minor" and "sad major" pieces into major and minor keys (respectively). I would earnestly like to know how such retunings change your emotional response to the pieces.

For the record as well, here's a recent article from "Nature", which (while it questions the ability of major/minor key to affect the emotion of a piece) cites studies that found people from non-Western cultures were able to reliably determine the intended emotion of unfamiliar pieces of Western music.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/080110/full/news.2010.3.html

So it is no longer a question of how reliably emotion can be conveyed in music, but how strong various musical devices (like tempo, pitch, volume, and key) are at conveying intended emotions. I think you'll find, by comparing the same piece in major and minor, that while key/chord quality doesn't have an overriding effect, it does at least have a relative effect. Whether that relative effect is consistent across listeners--that is my question. If you don't want to bother retuning anything, well, there are some videos on YouTube of things like "Fur Elise" in a major key, or "The Star-Spangled Banner" or the Bridal Chorus in a minor key. I'd like to know what you think.

-Igs

Music has more complex internal structure and logics than you can imagine. Simple "retuning" a work from major to minor (or vice versa) is difficult if not impossible, especially in he case of more complex harmonic structure and modulation plan. Major and minor key uses different progressions, and minor key offers more possibilities than major. Consider just this very basic problem: some chords (like dominant) are usually major even in minor scale. Do you want to change it also to minor?

If you just change all major chords to minor, and all minor to major, you'll get musically illogical result, nonsense. Order of chords has some logic and this way it will be destroyed. Nothing to say about changes in the melody, they will just add to this garbage.

Besides there are not only triads used in the music, but more complex chords.

Daniel Forro

On 29 Sep 2010, at 3:37 AM, cityoftheasleep wrote:

> Alright, I'm shutting up after this for a while, and I don't intend > to respond to any of the responses to this since I'm just trying to > gather data and not have any more discussion. BUT: after the > recent discussion of "happy minor" songs and "sad major" songs, I > would like to request people who really don't believe major and > minor have anything to do with happy and sad to "retune" their > favorite "happy minor" and "sad major" pieces into major and minor > keys (respectively). I would earnestly like to know how such > retunings change your emotional response to the pieces.
>
> For the record as well, here's a recent article from "Nature", > which (while it questions the ability of major/minor key to affect > the emotion of a piece) cites studies that found people from non-> Western cultures were able to reliably determine the intended > emotion of unfamiliar pieces of Western music.
>
> http://www.nature.com/news/2010/080110/full/news.2010.3.html
>
> So it is no longer a question of how reliably emotion can be > conveyed in music, but how strong various musical devices (like > tempo, pitch, volume, and key) are at conveying intended emotions. > I think you'll find, by comparing the same piece in major and > minor, that while key/chord quality doesn't have an overriding > effect, it does at least have a relative effect. Whether that > relative effect is consistent across listeners--that is my > question. If you don't want to bother retuning anything, well, > there are some videos on YouTube of things like "Fur Elise" in a > major key, or "The Star-Spangled Banner" or the Bridal Chorus in a > minor key. I'd like to know what you think.
>
> -Igs

Well, how did this guy do it?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQozSlXd5V8

Or this guy?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxRTjEssvGU

Or whoever did this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1twto5YsIpI

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> Music has more complex internal structure and logics than you can
> imagine. Simple "retuning" a work from major to minor (or vice versa)
> is difficult if not impossible, especially in he case of more complex
> harmonic structure and modulation plan. Major and minor key uses
> different progressions, and minor key offers more possibilities than
> major. Consider just this very basic problem: some chords (like
> dominant) are usually major even in minor scale. Do you want to
> change it also to minor?
>
> If you just change all major chords to minor, and all minor to major,
> you'll get musically illogical result, nonsense. Order of chords has
> some logic and this way it will be destroyed. Nothing to say about
> changes in the melody, they will just add to this garbage.
>
> Besides there are not only triads used in the music, but more complex
> chords.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
> On 29 Sep 2010, at 3:37 AM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
>
> > Alright, I'm shutting up after this for a while, and I don't intend
> > to respond to any of the responses to this since I'm just trying to
> > gather data and not have any more discussion. BUT: after the
> > recent discussion of "happy minor" songs and "sad major" songs, I
> > would like to request people who really don't believe major and
> > minor have anything to do with happy and sad to "retune" their
> > favorite "happy minor" and "sad major" pieces into major and minor
> > keys (respectively). I would earnestly like to know how such
> > retunings change your emotional response to the pieces.
> >
> > For the record as well, here's a recent article from "Nature",
> > which (while it questions the ability of major/minor key to affect
> > the emotion of a piece) cites studies that found people from non-
> > Western cultures were able to reliably determine the intended
> > emotion of unfamiliar pieces of Western music.
> >
> > http://www.nature.com/news/2010/080110/full/news.2010.3.html
> >
> > So it is no longer a question of how reliably emotion can be
> > conveyed in music, but how strong various musical devices (like
> > tempo, pitch, volume, and key) are at conveying intended emotions.
> > I think you'll find, by comparing the same piece in major and
> > minor, that while key/chord quality doesn't have an overriding
> > effect, it does at least have a relative effect. Whether that
> > relative effect is consistent across listeners--that is my
> > question. If you don't want to bother retuning anything, well,
> > there are some videos on YouTube of things like "Fur Elise" in a
> > major key, or "The Star-Spangled Banner" or the Bridal Chorus in a
> > minor key. I'd like to know what you think.
> >
> > -Igs
>

all three are great - especially the last one - I felt as if I was in
Moscow!

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 9:11 PM, cityoftheasleep <igliashon@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

>
>
> Well, how did this guy do it?:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQozSlXd5V8
>
> Or this guy?:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxRTjEssvGU
>
> Or whoever did this:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1twto5YsIpI
>
> -Igs
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Daniel Forró
> <dan.for@...> wrote:
> >
> > Music has more complex internal structure and logics than you can
> > imagine. Simple "retuning" a work from major to minor (or vice versa)
> > is difficult if not impossible, especially in he case of more complex
> > harmonic structure and modulation plan. Major and minor key uses
> > different progressions, and minor key offers more possibilities than
> > major. Consider just this very basic problem: some chords (like
> > dominant) are usually major even in minor scale. Do you want to
> > change it also to minor?
> >
> > If you just change all major chords to minor, and all minor to major,
> > you'll get musically illogical result, nonsense. Order of chords has
> > some logic and this way it will be destroyed. Nothing to say about
> > changes in the melody, they will just add to this garbage.
> >
> > Besides there are not only triads used in the music, but more complex
> > chords.
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> > On 29 Sep 2010, at 3:37 AM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
> >
> > > Alright, I'm shutting up after this for a while, and I don't intend
> > > to respond to any of the responses to this since I'm just trying to
> > > gather data and not have any more discussion. BUT: after the
> > > recent discussion of "happy minor" songs and "sad major" songs, I
> > > would like to request people who really don't believe major and
> > > minor have anything to do with happy and sad to "retune" their
> > > favorite "happy minor" and "sad major" pieces into major and minor
> > > keys (respectively). I would earnestly like to know how such
> > > retunings change your emotional response to the pieces.
> > >
> > > For the record as well, here's a recent article from "Nature",
> > > which (while it questions the ability of major/minor key to affect
> > > the emotion of a piece) cites studies that found people from non-
> > > Western cultures were able to reliably determine the intended
> > > emotion of unfamiliar pieces of Western music.
> > >
> > > http://www.nature.com/news/2010/080110/full/news.2010.3.html
> > >
> > > So it is no longer a question of how reliably emotion can be
> > > conveyed in music, but how strong various musical devices (like
> > > tempo, pitch, volume, and key) are at conveying intended emotions.
> > > I think you'll find, by comparing the same piece in major and
> > > minor, that while key/chord quality doesn't have an overriding
> > > effect, it does at least have a relative effect. Whether that
> > > relative effect is consistent across listeners--that is my
> > > question. If you don't want to bother retuning anything, well,
> > > there are some videos on YouTube of things like "Fur Elise" in a
> > > major key, or "The Star-Spangled Banner" or the Bridal Chorus in a
> > > minor key. I'd like to know what you think.
> > >
> > > -Igs
> >
>
>
>

Igs>"Well, how did this guy do it?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQozSlXd5V8

My best guess: play exactly the same tones for the most part, but swap the
major third and seventh tones for minor ones or vice-versa. :-D This (in the
case of switching from major to minor) would likely swap the resting/"focus"
points with minor chords and likely put the focus further on a sad mood (on the
average).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxRTjEssvGU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1twto5YsIpI"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQozSlXd5V8

So far these examples make minor sound more sad. However, in the case of
"fur elise", for example, it goes "too far" in my opinion...it goes from an
"upbeat" minor piece to an almost silly/corny/circus-like happy major
piece...and thus creates a different sense of pain/"lack of relaxation". Kind
of a musical equivalent to being caught at a frat party passed out on a couch
with someone drawing a Sharpie marker mustache in your face. :-D Meanwhile, in
contrast, "Star Spangled Banner", an already serious sounding song, making it
minor makes it so serious it really does sound incredibly unsettling.

From these examples at least, it seems fair to say minor does sound more sad,
but not necessarily less relaxed.
My experience in writing electronic music says much the same...when you make
something sound "too upbeat", it all turns into a sort of happy confusion...more
jumpy and corny than relaxing.

So, to my ears, making a song in minor form makes it "more sad". If the
actual composition is upbeat/happy enough...the result will still sound happy in
a minor key. What seems to make it un-relaxing to me is how far off the deep
end the overall song construction + key used is: if it's too happy or too sad it
becomes "unsettling".

Igs wrote:

> http://www.nature.com/news/2010/080110/full/news.2010.3.html

In case you don't have a subscription, the paper is
available here

http://www.purveslab.net/publications/bowling_purves_2009.pdf

at the website I sent you offlist. I haven't read it yet
but I'm tenatively skeptical they show what they claim they
show.

-Carl

Igs wrote:

> Well, how did this guy do it?:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQozSlXd5V8

Derp, totally.

-Carl

I wrote:

> > Well, how did this guy do it?:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQozSlXd5V8
>
> Derp, totally.

Sorry, not being sarcastic. It is to say: even though
he's changing the diatonic key as well as the chord types
(failing to isolate the experimental variable and hence
failing to actually establish anything) my listening
experience certainly does suggest a primary role for the
immediate affect of the chords.

-Carl