Distinguishing 5:6 and 6:7

Okay, folks, I came up with a scale in 18-EDO that gives four 5:6:7 chords and four 30:35:42 chords. I then played a progression that simply goes up the scale, I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-I, forming either otonal or utonal triads. The recording, which uses a layered piano/sawtooth sound, is here:

/tuning/files/IgliashonJones/567%20tonality%20demo.mp3

Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords from the utonal ones? I want to see your best guesses at which chords are which. So, if you'd like to participate, please reply with a list of which chords you think are which (or if you just can't tell). I'm curious to see if anyone can nail it!

For the record, the 6:7 is approximated by 266.666... cents, and the 5:6 is approximated by 333.333...cents, making the 5:7 exactly 600 cents. Not a pure tuning, of course, but then neither is 12-tET and we have no trouble distinguishing otonal vs. utonal with 12-tET!

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
%20demo.mp3
>
> Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords from the utonal ones?

Why don't you play sustained chords? And why in 18edo, which doesn't have a very good 6/5?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

> Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords from the utonal ones? I want to see your best guesses at which chords are which. So, if you'd like to participate, please reply with a list of which chords you think are which (or if you just can't tell). I'm curious to see if anyone can nail it!

Sounds like minor and subminor are alternating: minor, subminor, minor, subminor...

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:19 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, folks, I came up with a scale in 18-EDO that gives four 5:6:7 chords and four 30:35:42 chords. I then played a progression that simply goes up the scale, I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-I, forming either otonal or utonal triads. The recording, which uses a layered piano/sawtooth sound, is here:
>
> /tuning/files/IgliashonJones/567%20tonality%20demo.mp3

Every time I listen to it it sounds like something different. This is
my best guess after like 10 listens:

1 - otonal
2 - otonal
3 - utonal
4 - utonal
5 - otonal
6 - otonal
7 - utonal
8 - utonal

The difference is very subtle.

-Mike

I hear hard-hard-soft-soft-hard-hard-soft-soft, so I think it's
o-o-u-u-o-o-u-u.

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, folks, I came up with a scale in 18-EDO that gives four 5:6:7 chords and four 30:35:42 chords. I then played a progression that simply goes up the scale, I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-I, forming either otonal or utonal triads. The recording, which uses a layered piano/sawtooth sound, is here:
>
> /tuning/files/IgliashonJones/567%20tonality%20demo.mp3
>
> Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords from the utonal ones? I want to see your best guesses at which chords are which. So, if you'd like to participate, please reply with a list of which chords you think are which (or if you just can't tell). I'm curious to see if anyone can nail it!
>
> For the record, the 6:7 is approximated by 266.666... cents, and the 5:6 is approximated by 333.333...cents, making the 5:7 exactly 600 cents. Not a pure tuning, of course, but then neither is 12-tET and we have no trouble distinguishing otonal vs. utonal with 12-tET!
>
> -Igs
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> Why don't you play sustained chords? And why in 18edo, which doesn't have a very good
> 6/5?

Because it shouldn't matter. 12-tET doesn't have a good 6/5 OR a good 5/4, but hey, we can still tell major from minor with a second thought, even with chords played relatively staccato.

Also, I chose 18-EDO because it exaggerates the difference between 7/6 and 6/5 a little bit, which I thought might be helpful. I could have played the same scale in 22-EDO, but any accuracy gained in 6/5 would be lost in 7/6. Since 7/6 is more complex, I figured it would benefit from greater accuracy.

Basically, I looked at a bunch of different scales, and 18-EDO gave me a nice 8-note scale that is strictly proper and allows 4 instances each of both triads. It seemed ideal for my purposes. Once a few more guesses come in, I'll lay out the scale and you can tell me if I could have picked a better one.

-Igs

M M m m M M m m

Great example (including the choice of 18-ET)!

-Carl

Igs wrote:

> Okay, folks, I came up with a scale in 18-EDO that gives four
> 5:6:7 chords and four 30:35:42 chords. I then played a
> progression that simply goes up the scale,
> I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-I, forming either otonal or utonal
> triads. The recording, which uses a layered piano/sawtooth
> sound, is here:
>
> /tuning/files/IgliashonJones
> /567%20tonality%20demo.mp3
>
> Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords
> from the utonal ones? I want to see your best guesses at which
> chords are which.

Here goes nothing ( second listening, first while paying attention ) –

o u u o? o o u u o

CJS

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, folks, I came up with a scale in 18-EDO that gives four 5:6:7 chords and four 30:35:42 chords. I then played a progression that simply goes up the scale, I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-I, forming either otonal or utonal triads. The recording, which uses a layered piano/sawtooth sound, is here:
>
> /tuning/files/IgliashonJones/567%20tonality%20demo.mp3
>
> Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords from the utonal ones? I want to see your best guesses at which chords are which. So, if you'd like to participate, please reply with a list of which chords you think are which (or if you just can't tell). I'm curious to see if anyone can nail it!
>
> For the record, the 6:7 is approximated by 266.666... cents, and the 5:6 is approximated by 333.333...cents, making the 5:7 exactly 600 cents. Not a pure tuning, of course, but then neither is 12-tET and we have no trouble distinguishing otonal vs. utonal with 12-tET!
>
> -Igs
>

Does - it all sounds augmented count?

All I hear is a bit a difference in beating - but ear training was never my
strong point.

Chris

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 5:45 PM, Kalle Aho <kalleaho@...>wrote:

>
>
> I hear hard-hard-soft-soft-hard-hard-soft-soft, so I think it's
> o-o-u-u-o-o-u-u.
>
> Kalle
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
> >
> > Okay, folks, I came up with a scale in 18-EDO that gives four 5:6:7
> chords and four 30:35:42 chords. I then played a progression that simply
> goes up the scale, I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-I, forming either otonal or
> utonal triads. The recording, which uses a layered piano/sawtooth sound, is
> here:
> >
> >
> /tuning/files/IgliashonJones/567%20tonality%20demo.mp3
> >
> > Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords from the
> utonal ones? I want to see your best guesses at which chords are which. So,
> if you'd like to participate, please reply with a list of which chords you
> think are which (or if you just can't tell). I'm curious to see if anyone
> can nail it!
> >
> > For the record, the 6:7 is approximated by 266.666... cents, and the 5:6
> is approximated by 333.333...cents, making the 5:7 exactly 600 cents. Not a
> pure tuning, of course, but then neither is 12-tET and we have no trouble
> distinguishing otonal vs. utonal with 12-tET!
> >
> > -Igs
> >
>
>
>

Okay, I think that's enough guesses.

A lot of people got it right, to my surprise! It is in fact O O u u O O u u, or M M m m M M m m if you prefer. The difference is very very slight but you can definitely pick it up if you're a careful listener.

The scale I used goes 2 3 2 2 2 3 2 2 in 18-EDO, so it's a 2L+6s MOS scale...well, maybe it's technically a 1L+3s scale with a half-octave period, since the generator is 133.333... cents.

At any rate, I think that it's definitely far from clear in this case which chords are otonal and which are utonal, and compared to 7/6, I don't think the 6/5 sounds particularly "major". What do you all think?

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, folks, I came up with a scale in 18-EDO that gives four 5:6:7 chords and four 30:35:42 chords. I then played a progression that simply goes up the scale, I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-I, forming either otonal or utonal triads. The recording, which uses a layered piano/sawtooth sound, is here:
>
> /tuning/files/IgliashonJones/567%20tonality%20demo.mp3
>
> Now, my question to you all: can you tell the otonal chords from the utonal ones? I want to see your best guesses at which chords are which. So, if you'd like to participate, please reply with a list of which chords you think are which (or if you just can't tell). I'm curious to see if anyone can nail it!
>
> For the record, the 6:7 is approximated by 266.666... cents, and the 5:6 is approximated by 333.333...cents, making the 5:7 exactly 600 cents. Not a pure tuning, of course, but then neither is 12-tET and we have no trouble distinguishing otonal vs. utonal with 12-tET!
>
> -Igs
>

Igs wrote:

> At any rate, I think that it's definitely far from clear in
> this case which chords are otonal and which are utonal, and
> compared to 7/6, I don't think the 6/5 sounds particularly
> "major". What do you all think?

Again, excellent test. Musical and easy to listen to.

I do think 5:6:7 sounds major. In fact that's how I heard
the pattern! I didn't listen analytically, I just listened
for the major quality. But if you must, you should find it's
much easier to sing the fundamental under the major chords.

-Carl