PlatinOsmium+Carbon alloyed piano wire?

It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the ordinary
piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa ultimate tension
strength can be replaced with some kind of Platinum-Carbon compound
including trace amounts of Osmium. How the replacement of Iron, if at
all possible, with >98 percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would
affect the inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper knowledge
in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional durability and
strength of the wire. Osmium already exists naturally alongside
Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits. As a side note, Platinum is
almost three times as dense as iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead.
Does any one have any notion on how to tackle this issue and even so
much as delve into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the
surmised new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
Cris Forster? Anyone?

Cordially,
Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Having worked with Pt wire as a chemist I think that high purity platinum would be too malleable. And incredibly expensive.

So the goal is to have piano wire that deviates as little as possible from the true harmonic series?

Forgive the blackberry post. ...

Chris
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>
Sender: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 03:54:36
To: Tuning List<tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] PlatinOsmium+Carbon alloyed piano wire?

It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the ordinary
piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa ultimate tension
strength can be replaced with some kind of Platinum-Carbon compound
including trace amounts of Osmium. How the replacement of Iron, if at
all possible, with >98 percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would
affect the inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper knowledge
in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional durability and
strength of the wire. Osmium already exists naturally alongside
Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits. As a side note, Platinum is
almost three times as dense as iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead.
Does any one have any notion on how to tackle this issue and even so
much as delve into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the
surmised new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
Cris Forster? Anyone?

Cordially,
Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Cris Forster does indeed have quite a bit on strings in his recent published book.
Musical Mathematics.
The subject lead to to even make his own string winding machine which is an impressive as his instruments.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the ordinary
> piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa ultimate tension
> strength can be replaced with some kind of Platinum-Carbon compound
> including trace amounts of Osmium. How the replacement of Iron, if at
> all possible, with >98 percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would
> affect the inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
> Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper knowledge
> in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional durability and
> strength of the wire. Osmium already exists naturally alongside
> Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits. As a side note, Platinum is
> almost three times as dense as iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead.
> Does any one have any notion on how to tackle this issue and even so
> much as delve into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the
> surmised new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
> Cris Forster? Anyone?
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>

All inharmonicity calculations are straight forward. Obtain the mass density and Young's modulus of *any* alloy, and, of course, the dimensions, tensions, and frequencies of the strings, and apply these values to various equations of Musical Mathematics, Chapter 4, entitled "Inharmonic Strings." One must then also perform break strength calculations to determine if a given string will give a good tone and if it will last.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Grady" <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> Cris Forster does indeed have quite a bit on strings in his recent published book.
> Musical Mathematics.
> The subject lead to to even make his own string winding machine which is an impressive as his instruments.
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@> wrote:
> >
> > It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the ordinary
> > piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa ultimate tension
> > strength can be replaced with some kind of Platinum-Carbon compound
> > including trace amounts of Osmium. How the replacement of Iron, if at
> > all possible, with >98 percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would
> > affect the inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
> > Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper knowledge
> > in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional durability and
> > strength of the wire. Osmium already exists naturally alongside
> > Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits. As a side note, Platinum is
> > almost three times as dense as iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead.
> > Does any one have any notion on how to tackle this issue and even so
> > much as delve into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the
> > surmised new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
> > Cris Forster? Anyone?
> >
> > Cordially,
> > Dr. Oz.
> >
> > ✩ ✩ ✩
> > www.ozanyarman.com
> >
>

Hi Ozan,

Harmonicity of a piano string is mostly determined by two
factors: tensile strength and elasticity. High strength allows
the strings to be thinner, whereupon they better approximate an
ideal string of zero thickness. High elasticity (low stiffness
or Young's modulus) means the string can respond harmonically
to a wider range of forces up to its breaking (tensile) pressure.
A strong string is no good if it kinks instead of returning to
its original shape during each cycle of vibration. Likewise,
a rubber band, though very elastic, is not very strong. All of
this is captured in the so called stress-strain curve for a
material, and you may like to have a look at such curves to
get a better picture of the situation.

I don't know about the strength and elasticity of Pt alloys.
However I have previously suggested on this list that amorphous
metals would be ideal piano wire materials, as they have
superior strength and elasticity to any crystaline alloy
I know of. However I don't know if anybody's ever drawn wire
in an amorphous metal. It would be interesting to find out.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the
> ordinary piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa
> ultimate tension strength can be replaced with some kind of
> Platinum-Carbon compound including trace amounts of Osmium.
> How the replacement of Iron, if at all possible, with >98
> percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would affect the
> inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
> Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper
> knowledge in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional
> durability and strength of the wire. Osmium already exists
> naturally alongside Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits.
> As a side note, Platinum is almost three times as dense as
> iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead. Does any one have any
> notion on how to tackle this issue and even so much as delve
> into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the surmised
> new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
> Cris Forster? Anyone?
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Oz.
> www.ozanyarman.com
>

I have to apologize on my lack of knowledge with regard to tensile strength.

I did find some data that may be useful

Platinum Physical Properties

http://www.saltlakemetals.com/SWCalcPt.htm

Tensile strength 125-240 MPa

Comparison of Pt alloy strength

http://www.sigmundcohn.com/pdf/EN/high%20tensile%20wire.pdf

And finally a comparison table of tensile strength

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_strength

It looks to me that carbon nano tube fibers have a good chance of coming
very close to the ideal properties.

Chris

To calculate the dimensionless stiffness parameter, or the coefficient of inharmonicity, of a given string one must know Young's modulus of elasticity of the stringing material; end of story.

To calculate the break strength of a given string, one must know the tensile strength of the stringing material; end of story.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ozan,
>
> Harmonicity of a piano string is mostly determined by two
> factors: tensile strength and elasticity. High strength allows
> the strings to be thinner, whereupon they better approximate an
> ideal string of zero thickness. High elasticity (low stiffness
> or Young's modulus) means the string can respond harmonically
> to a wider range of forces up to its breaking (tensile) pressure.
> A strong string is no good if it kinks instead of returning to
> its original shape during each cycle of vibration. Likewise,
> a rubber band, though very elastic, is not very strong. All of
> this is captured in the so called stress-strain curve for a
> material, and you may like to have a look at such curves to
> get a better picture of the situation.
>
> I don't know about the strength and elasticity of Pt alloys.
> However I have previously suggested on this list that amorphous
> metals would be ideal piano wire materials, as they have
> superior strength and elasticity to any crystaline alloy
> I know of. However I don't know if anybody's ever drawn wire
> in an amorphous metal. It would be interesting to find out.
>
> -Carl
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@> wrote:
> >
> > It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the
> > ordinary piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa
> > ultimate tension strength can be replaced with some kind of
> > Platinum-Carbon compound including trace amounts of Osmium.
> > How the replacement of Iron, if at all possible, with >98
> > percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would affect the
> > inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
> > Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper
> > knowledge in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional
> > durability and strength of the wire. Osmium already exists
> > naturally alongside Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits.
> > As a side note, Platinum is almost three times as dense as
> > iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead. Does any one have any
> > notion on how to tackle this issue and even so much as delve
> > into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the surmised
> > new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
> > Cris Forster? Anyone?
> >
> > Cordially,
> > Dr. Oz.
> > www.ozanyarman.com
> >
>

Thanks Cris,

Here is a list for those interested of Young's modulus of elasticity
for various materials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 8:17 PM, c_ml_forster <cris.forster@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> To calculate the dimensionless stiffness parameter, or the coefficient of inharmonicity, of a given string one must know Young's modulus of elasticity of the stringing material; end of story.
>
> To calculate the break strength of a given string, one must know the tensile strength of the stringing material; end of story.
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
> >

It is possible to calculate Young's modulus (E) without doing laboratory-oriented destructive tests. Instead, with a simple equation, it is possible to calculate E with non-destructive vibration tests. When it comes to wood, there is a lot of unreliable and conflicting data out there. So, in my book, I give *ranges* of E for wood, because wood is an anisotropic/heterogeneous material, which means that it has many internal irregularities and inconsistencies in density. Also, for applications on musical instruments, values for E should be high. In this context, much basic research remains to be done.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Cris,
>
> Here is a list for those interested of Young's modulus of elasticity
> for various materials.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 8:17 PM, c_ml_forster <cris.forster@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > To calculate the dimensionless stiffness parameter, or the coefficient of inharmonicity, of a given string one must know Young's modulus of elasticity of the stringing material; end of story.
> >
> > To calculate the break strength of a given string, one must know the tensile strength of the stringing material; end of story.
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> > >
>

Thanks to everyone who were considerate enough to deliver important
points to my pursuit of a new alloy candidate for "improved" piano
strings.

@ Chris: Yes, as you stated, high purity Platinum wire is said to
exhibit considerable ductility and is rather malleable compared to
iron or steel. I find it rather fortunate that we have among us a
chemist who knows music-making and delves into the music theory of
microtones! (As a side note, my father, Prof. Dr. Tolga Yarman has
tackled Chemical Engineering for many years during his Nuclear
Engineering degree. He has been supporting me in my quest with his
knowledge so far, and I, him on music theory.) Indeed, the goal here
should be NOT ONLY to produce a wire that yields a "truer" overtone
series, but also to eliminate (as much as possible) false beats
(impurities?) and "brighten" & "enrich" (excuse the pun) the tone of
the piano. I surmise on conjecture and impression, that a Platinum-
Osmium based compound piano wire might be made to exhibit better
resistance to tensions, a greater elasticity and recoil, and an
overall "cleaner" sound due to its ability to propagate wave energy
with comparably smaller losses as opposed to spring steel. We should
have improved non-corrosiveness as a bonus.

@ Carl: Thanks for the comments. However, I approach with caution to
your suggestion of amorphous metals as piano wire. The crystalline
structure's presence in steel wire (I conjecture) most likely serves
to propagate wave energy with minimal loss. A structure that is
disorderly and haphazardly arranged would be analogous to a bumpy road
where packets of wave energy would be absorbed back to the detriment
of purity of tone. This should create problems with noticable
"ringing" and worse false beats. The goal is to ensure not only higher
tensile strength and elasticity, but also to assure smoother
conduciveness for transverse sound waves in the wire.

@Cris: I shall find ways to acquire your book and try to put to good
use your directions. Thank you.

Back at Chris Vaisvil: I have found out from the website you kindly
provided the link to that a 0.8 mm Platinum wire 120 meters long
weighs about 1.2 kgs. That should cost 50.000 US dollars on average in
the market today. In times of economic crises, price of Platinum is
said to fall below Gold. It fluctuates by the hour in stockmarkets.
The tensile strength given in the sheet is still 1/10th of the desired
value in the case of Platinum Group alloys. In my budget, this equates
to just 20 grams to mix in trace amounts (1 in 60 parts).

Cordially,
Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 9, 2010, at 3:17 AM, c_ml_forster wrote:

> To calculate the dimensionless stiffness parameter, or the
> coefficient of inharmonicity, of a given string one must know
> Young's modulus of elasticity of the stringing material; end of story.
>
> To calculate the break strength of a given string, one must know the
> tensile strength of the stringing material; end of story.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ozan,
>>
>> Harmonicity of a piano string is mostly determined by two
>> factors: tensile strength and elasticity. High strength allows
>> the strings to be thinner, whereupon they better approximate an
>> ideal string of zero thickness. High elasticity (low stiffness
>> or Young's modulus) means the string can respond harmonically
>> to a wider range of forces up to its breaking (tensile) pressure.
>> A strong string is no good if it kinks instead of returning to
>> its original shape during each cycle of vibration. Likewise,
>> a rubber band, though very elastic, is not very strong. All of
>> this is captured in the so called stress-strain curve for a
>> material, and you may like to have a look at such curves to
>> get a better picture of the situation.
>>
>> I don't know about the strength and elasticity of Pt alloys.
>> However I have previously suggested on this list that amorphous
>> metals would be ideal piano wire materials, as they have
>> superior strength and elasticity to any crystaline alloy
>> I know of. However I don't know if anybody's ever drawn wire
>> in an amorphous metal. It would be interesting to find out.
>>
>> -Carl
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@> wrote:
>>>
>>> It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the
>>> ordinary piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa
>>> ultimate tension strength can be replaced with some kind of
>>> Platinum-Carbon compound including trace amounts of Osmium.
>>> How the replacement of Iron, if at all possible, with >98
>>> percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would affect the
>>> inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
>>> Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper
>>> knowledge in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional
>>> durability and strength of the wire. Osmium already exists
>>> naturally alongside Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits.
>>> As a side note, Platinum is almost three times as dense as
>>> iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead. Does any one have any
>>> notion on how to tackle this issue and even so much as delve
>>> into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the surmised
>>> new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
>>> Cris Forster? Anyone?
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Dr. Oz.
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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I'm not at all specialist in this field, but I would say from the common sense the material of the string is only one factor deciding the resulting timbre of sound. Important are also the other factors: string tension, way of excitation the string (hammer, bow, pluck...), place on the string where excitation is done, material of exciting device, strength of excitation, resonant box of instrument, ambient of instrument... Resulting sound is a combination of basic string vibration plus lot of transient fenomenons and irregularities in the beginning of sounding, during sounding and in the end of it. You should include all this into the considerations...

"Truer" overtone series? What do you mean by this? There's only one harmonic series.
Elimination of false beats? Brighten, enrich the tone? I don't understand the reason for all this. Piano sound is piano sound exactly because it has such sound which it has. All imperfections, inharmonicities and transients are organic part of its sound. When you reach your planned target, maybe there's a new instrument far from piano sound.

Maybe such things can be tried by means of mathematical modeling. Have you seen new Roland digital piano V-piano? There you can for example set silver wrapped strings and many other parameters (Unison Tune, Hammer Hardness, Cross Resonance, Tone Color, String Resonance, Damper Resonance, Soundboard Resonance, Key off resonance, Damping Time, Damping Noise Level, and more).

Daniel Forro

On 9 Aug 2010, at 10:18 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who were considerate enough to deliver important
> points to my pursuit of a new alloy candidate for "improved" piano
> strings.
>
> @ Chris: Yes, as you stated, high purity Platinum wire is said to
> exhibit considerable ductility and is rather malleable compared to
> iron or steel. I find it rather fortunate that we have among us a
> chemist who knows music-making and delves into the music theory of
> microtones! (As a side note, my father, Prof. Dr. Tolga Yarman has
> tackled Chemical Engineering for many years during his Nuclear
> Engineering degree. He has been supporting me in my quest with his
> knowledge so far, and I, him on music theory.) Indeed, the goal here
> should be NOT ONLY to produce a wire that yields a "truer" overtone
> series, but also to eliminate (as much as possible) false beats
> (impurities?) and "brighten" & "enrich" (excuse the pun) the tone of
> the piano. I surmise on conjecture and impression, that a Platinum-
> Osmium based compound piano wire might be made to exhibit better
> resistance to tensions, a greater elasticity and recoil, and an
> overall "cleaner" sound due to its ability to propagate wave energy
> with comparably smaller losses as opposed to spring steel. We should
> have improved non-corrosiveness as a bonus.
>
> @ Carl: Thanks for the comments. However, I approach with caution to
> your suggestion of amorphous metals as piano wire. The crystalline
> structure's presence in steel wire (I conjecture) most likely serves
> to propagate wave energy with minimal loss. A structure that is
> disorderly and haphazardly arranged would be analogous to a bumpy road
> where packets of wave energy would be absorbed back to the detriment
> of purity of tone. This should create problems with noticable
> "ringing" and worse false beats. The goal is to ensure not only higher
> tensile strength and elasticity, but also to assure smoother
> conduciveness for transverse sound waves in the wire.
>
> @Cris: I shall find ways to acquire your book and try to put to good
> use your directions. Thank you.
>
> Back at Chris Vaisvil: I have found out from the website you kindly
> provided the link to that a 0.8 mm Platinum wire 120 meters long
> weighs about 1.2 kgs. That should cost 50.000 US dollars on average in
> the market today. In times of economic crises, price of Platinum is
> said to fall below Gold. It fluctuates by the hour in stockmarkets.
> The tensile strength given in the sheet is still 1/10th of the desired
> value in the case of Platinum Group alloys. In my budget, this equates
> to just 20 grams to mix in trace amounts (1 in 60 parts).
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Oz.

Well, all that you listed below does indeed contribute to the pitch,
timbre, loudness and other properties of sound... So much so that
"piano sound" differs much from one brand to another to (mayhap)
warrant whole organological sub-categories or reclassifications!

But I already have a Bechstein grand featuring "not-out-of-the-
ordinary" piano design in a proper acoustical environment. Significant
touch-ups have already been made to the instrument including a full
change of tuning pins. I merely consider the possibility of improving
the tone colour further by the least momentous and not-so-expensive
alteration, which is the replacement of strings. (This notion is
reinforced after snapping so many of the old bass strings only to have
second-grade imitation wire that their place, and enduring thetorturous disobedience of metal-fatigued sopranino strings to my
tuning maneouvres.)

The sought-after timbre should still be close, very close to what I
obtain from my piano now, but somewhat "better"... with "more clarity"
and "shine" in fortissimos while "silky" and "coffee-cream" in
pianissimos.

These are very subjective demands and terms of course, but
understandably so, because the mysterious nature of the human
cognizance of senses is (so far) beyond the scope of natural sciences.
I don't even begin to presume how my notions correspond in mind to you
and others.

Here is one thing that might be scientifically clarified: "Truer
overtones" as in "lesser inharmonicity" approaching the ideal taut
string model as pointed by Carl.

In so far, be it the "piano sound" you are accustomed to or otherwise,
I consider a "properly-aligned" false-beat configuration in a new
alloy wire a criterion... to the point of camouflage or even
elimination. My search for an alloy in the Platinum Group as piano
wire is based more on gut instinct than any masterful deliberation.
How it would lead to anything conclusive is still mysterious and
elusive.

Where can one find this Roland you speak of?

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 9, 2010, at 4:59 AM, Daniel Forró wrote:

>
>
> I'm not at all specialist in this field, but I would say from the
> common sense the material of the string is only one factor deciding
> the resulting timbre of sound. Important are also the other factors:
> string tension, way of excitation the string (hammer, bow,
> pluck...), place on the string where excitation is done, material of
> exciting device, strength of excitation, resonant box of instrument,
> ambient of instrument... Resulting sound is a combination of basic
> string vibration plus lot of transient fenomenons and irregularities
> in the beginning of sounding, during sounding and in the end of it.
> You should include all this into the considerations...
>
> "Truer" overtone series? What do you mean by this? There's only one
> harmonic series.
> Elimination of false beats? Brighten, enrich the tone? I don't
> understand the reason for all this. Piano sound is piano sound
> exactly because it has such sound which it has. All imperfections,
> inharmonicities and transients are organic part of its sound. When
> you reach your planned target, maybe there's a new instrument far
> from piano sound.
>
> Maybe such things can be tried by means of mathematical modeling.
> Have you seen new Roland digital piano V-piano? There you can for
> example set silver wrapped strings and many other parameters (Unison
> Tune, Hammer Hardness, Cross Resonance, Tone Color, String
> Resonance, Damper Resonance, Soundboard Resonance, Key off
> resonance, Damping Time, Damping Noise Level, and more).
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 9 Aug 2010, at 10:18 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>> Thanks to everyone who were considerate enough to deliver important
>> points to my pursuit of a new alloy candidate for "improved" piano
>> strings.
>>
>> @ Chris: Yes, as you stated, high purity Platinum wire is said to
>> exhibit considerable ductility and is rather malleable compared to
>> iron or steel. I find it rather fortunate that we have among us a
>> chemist who knows music-making and delves into the music theory of
>> microtones! (As a side note, my father, Prof. Dr. Tolga Yarman has
>> tackled Chemical Engineering for many years during his Nuclear
>> Engineering degree. He has been supporting me in my quest with his
>> knowledge so far, and I, him on music theory.) Indeed, the goal here
>> should be NOT ONLY to produce a wire that yields a "truer" overtone
>> series, but also to eliminate (as much as possible) false beats
>> (impurities?) and "brighten" & "enrich" (excuse the pun) the tone of
>> the piano. I surmise on conjecture and impression, that a Platinum-
>> Osmium based compound piano wire might be made to exhibit better
>> resistance to tensions, a greater elasticity and recoil, and an
>> overall "cleaner" sound due to its ability to propagate wave energy
>> with comparably smaller losses as opposed to spring steel. We should
>> have improved non-corrosiveness as a bonus.
>>
>> @ Carl: Thanks for the comments. However, I approach with caution to
>> your suggestion of amorphous metals as piano wire. The crystalline
>> structure's presence in steel wire (I conjecture) most likely serves
>> to propagate wave energy with minimal loss. A structure that is
>> disorderly and haphazardly arranged would be analogous to a bumpy
>> road
>> where packets of wave energy would be absorbed back to the detriment
>> of purity of tone. This should create problems with noticable
>> "ringing" and worse false beats. The goal is to ensure not only
>> higher
>> tensile strength and elasticity, but also to assure smoother
>> conduciveness for transverse sound waves in the wire.
>>
>> @Cris: I shall find ways to acquire your book and try to put to good
>> use your directions. Thank you.
>>
>> Back at Chris Vaisvil: I have found out from the website you kindly
>> provided the link to that a 0.8 mm Platinum wire 120 meters long
>> weighs about 1.2 kgs. That should cost 50.000 US dollars on average
>> in
>> the market today. In times of economic crises, price of Platinum is
>> said to fall below Gold. It fluctuates by the hour in stockmarkets.
>> The tensile strength given in the sheet is still 1/10th of the
>> desired
>> value in the case of Platinum Group alloys. In my budget, this
>> equates
>> to just 20 grams to mix in trace amounts (1 in 60 parts).
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dr. Oz.
>
>
>
>

Hi Chris,

I'm not following. End of what story? You don't seem to
be disagreeing with anything I said...

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "c_ml_forster" <cris.forster@...> wrote:
>
> To calculate the dimensionless stiffness parameter, or the
> coefficient of inharmonicity, of a given string one must know
> Young's modulus of elasticity of the stringing material; end
> of story.
>
> To calculate the break strength of a given string, one must
> know the tensile strength of the stringing material; end
> of story.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ozan,
> >
> > Harmonicity of a piano string is mostly determined by two
> > factors: tensile strength and elasticity. High strength allows
> > the strings to be thinner, whereupon they better approximate an
> > ideal string of zero thickness. High elasticity (low stiffness
> > or Young's modulus) means the string can respond harmonically
> > to a wider range of forces up to its breaking (tensile) pressure.
> > A strong string is no good if it kinks instead of returning to
> > its original shape during each cycle of vibration. Likewise,
> > a rubber band, though very elastic, is not very strong. All of
> > this is captured in the so called stress-strain curve for a
> > material, and you may like to have a look at such curves to
> > get a better picture of the situation.
> >
> > I don't know about the strength and elasticity of Pt alloys.
> > However I have previously suggested on this list that amorphous
> > metals would be ideal piano wire materials, as they have
> > superior strength and elasticity to any crystaline alloy
> > I know of. However I don't know if anybody's ever drawn wire
> > in an amorphous metal. It would be interesting to find out.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the
> > > ordinary piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa
> > > ultimate tension strength can be replaced with some kind of
> > > Platinum-Carbon compound including trace amounts of Osmium.
> > > How the replacement of Iron, if at all possible, with >98
> > > percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would affect the
> > > inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
> > > Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper
> > > knowledge in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional
> > > durability and strength of the wire. Osmium already exists
> > > naturally alongside Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits.
> > > As a side note, Platinum is almost three times as dense as
> > > iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead. Does any one have any
> > > notion on how to tackle this issue and even so much as delve
> > > into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the surmised
> > > new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
> > > Cris Forster? Anyone?
> > >
> > > Cordially,
> > > Dr. Oz.
> > > www.ozanyarman.com
> > >
> >
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

> It looks to me that carbon nano tube fibers have a good chance of
> coming very close to the ideal properties.
>
> Chris

Last I checked, the longest single nanotubes yet produced are
much less than an inch, and the cheapest much too expensive
to make into rope for piano strings. It's expected that nanotube
rope will one day be feasible, but I'm not holding my breath.
On the other hand, I've worked with amorphous metals in an
industrial setting.

-Carl

It's not about you,
and it's definitely not about me.
It's about the reader.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I'm not following. End of what story? You don't seem to
> be disagreeing with anything I said...
>
> -Carl
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "c_ml_forster" <cris.forster@> wrote:
> >
> > To calculate the dimensionless stiffness parameter, or the
> > coefficient of inharmonicity, of a given string one must know
> > Young's modulus of elasticity of the stringing material; end
> > of story.
> >
> > To calculate the break strength of a given string, one must
> > know the tensile strength of the stringing material; end
> > of story.
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Ozan,
> > >
> > > Harmonicity of a piano string is mostly determined by two
> > > factors: tensile strength and elasticity. High strength allows
> > > the strings to be thinner, whereupon they better approximate an
> > > ideal string of zero thickness. High elasticity (low stiffness
> > > or Young's modulus) means the string can respond harmonically
> > > to a wider range of forces up to its breaking (tensile) pressure.
> > > A strong string is no good if it kinks instead of returning to
> > > its original shape during each cycle of vibration. Likewise,
> > > a rubber band, though very elastic, is not very strong. All of
> > > this is captured in the so called stress-strain curve for a
> > > material, and you may like to have a look at such curves to
> > > get a better picture of the situation.
> > >
> > > I don't know about the strength and elasticity of Pt alloys.
> > > However I have previously suggested on this list that amorphous
> > > metals would be ideal piano wire materials, as they have
> > > superior strength and elasticity to any crystaline alloy
> > > I know of. However I don't know if anybody's ever drawn wire
> > > in an amorphous metal. It would be interesting to find out.
> > >
> > > -Carl
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It has been a growing interest for me to try to learn if the
> > > > ordinary piano wires depending on spring steel with >2000 MPa
> > > > ultimate tension strength can be replaced with some kind of
> > > > Platinum-Carbon compound including trace amounts of Osmium.
> > > > How the replacement of Iron, if at all possible, with >98
> > > > percent purity Platinum to emulate steel would affect the
> > > > inharmonicity, scaling and tuning is a mystery for me.
> > > > Inclusion of Osmium in the mix, I glean without any proper
> > > > knowledge in metallurgy, is expected to result in additional
> > > > durability and strength of the wire. Osmium already exists
> > > > naturally alongside Platinum isotopoes in Terran ore deposits.
> > > > As a side note, Platinum is almost three times as dense as
> > > > iron and Osmium is twice that of Lead. Does any one have any
> > > > notion on how to tackle this issue and even so much as delve
> > > > into the wave mechanics of sound in the case of the surmised
> > > > new "platinum steel wire"? Gene Ward Smith? Paul Poletti?
> > > > Cris Forster? Anyone?
> > > >
> > > > Cordially,
> > > > Dr. Oz.
> > > > www.ozanyarman.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I wrote:

> On the other hand, I've worked with amorphous metals in an
> industrial setting.

I was a bit worried after having posted this, but thankfully
it looks like this came out on the 5th:
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_signs_deal_for_liquidmetal_tech/

-Carl

(“Liquidmetal”)"and better acoustical properties compared to other metals."

I hope Apple isn't working on an advanced terminator in its skunk works....

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> I wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, I've worked with amorphous metals in an
> > industrial setting.
>
> I was a bit worried after having posted this, but thankfully
> it looks like this came out on the 5th:
>
> http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_signs_deal_for_liquidmetal_tech/
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

For the reader, I would recommend a minimum of grandiose
proclamations that seemingly have no context in the text
you're replying to. -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "c_ml_forster" <cris.forster@...> wrote:
>
> It's not about you,
> and it's definitely not about me.
> It's about the reader.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > I'm not following. End of what story? You don't seem to
> > be disagreeing with anything I said...
> >
> > -Carl

Surely, you jest.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> For the reader, I would recommend a minimum of grandiose
> proclamations that seemingly have no context in the text
> you're replying to. -Carl
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "c_ml_forster" <cris.forster@> wrote:
> >
> > It's not about you,
> > and it's definitely not about me.
> > It's about the reader.
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > >
> > > I'm not following. End of what story? You don't seem to
> > > be disagreeing with anything I said...
> > >
> > > -Carl
>