How much preparation before composing? Your Anecdotes

To be clear, I'm not asking for advice, only for people to share stories if they want.

Over the years, I've tried composing in a variety of styles and with different methods and different amounts of 'precomposition'--which can be anything from constructing 12-tone tables to building a synthesized orchestra to sketching a plot or graph of textures in advance.

13-limit JI has some new intervals, new possibilities I haven't tried before, and the geography of the scale I'm working with is unfamiliar. I've stuck little pieces of Post-its with the ratios on the keys of my keyboard. I'm practicing memorizing the locations of the various embedded scales--the O tonalities and U tonalities, if you will.

I'm wondering when I'm going to be confident enough to dive in. More practice first for a while, or just start groping around?

I'm curious how much the various composers here prepare before they actually start creating finished music and in what ways. How much do you 'internalize' the scale? How much do you plan?

There's no right answers here. I'm just curious to hear stories about different amounts of preparation and of different outcomes based on that.

(If this were a talk show, I'd say: "I'll take my answers off the air."

Caleb

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "calebmrgn" <calebmrgn@...> wrote:

> I'm curious how much the various composers here prepare before they actually start creating finished music and in what ways. How much do you 'internalize' the scale? How much do you plan?

I always start with a study of the chords and chord relations, and come up with a plan for what to do based in good part on that.

Hi Caleb~
(might be useful to others so i post here)
It seems the longer one sticks to a given territory the more one discovers.
Regardless of the tuning, the more different ways one can look at it and explore it the freer ones hand is.
When i worked with the Eikosany , i would write pieces based on different features contained within it which helped me learn the structure. It got to the point where i could hear one Tetrad or Hexany and i know everything that is related to it. Later i looked at purely as a scale where one can transpose material to different places with interesting unique shifting of intonational difference.
As an artist one wants to get to that point where one moves the material according to some inner sense or ear.
It sounds like you are working with a 13 limit diamond.
Since this is more a harmonically based territory, personally i would like to know what form of constant structure might contain it as well ones it contains. those here who can explain here all the pitches therein as an EDO will give one a clue as where one might look.
It really is a very big animal though and i find over time i prefer working with smaller sets, but if you are really game on this you might try smalled subsets of it.
There is a great advantage though to having two diamonds a 3/2 apart as just a single one, or even three. with 13 limit it might be too much.
If one gets bogged down this way you can try to just jump from point to point aimlessly. Allot is discovered by accident and often one finds what one likes in unexpected corners.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "calebmrgn" <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
>
> To be clear, I'm not asking for advice, only for people to share stories if they want.
>
> Over the years, I've tried composing in a variety of styles and with different methods and different amounts of 'precomposition'--which can be anything from constructing 12-tone tables to building a synthesized orchestra to sketching a plot or graph of textures in advance.
>
> 13-limit JI has some new intervals, new possibilities I haven't tried before, and the geography of the scale I'm working with is unfamiliar. I've stuck little pieces of Post-its with the ratios on the keys of my keyboard. I'm practicing memorizing the locations of the various embedded scales--the O tonalities and U tonalities, if you will.
>
> I'm wondering when I'm going to be confident enough to dive in. More practice first for a while, or just start groping around?
>
> I'm curious how much the various composers here prepare before they actually start creating finished music and in what ways. How much do you 'internalize' the scale? How much do you plan?
>
> There's no right answers here. I'm just curious to hear stories about different amounts of preparation and of different outcomes based on that.
>
> (If this were a talk show, I'd say: "I'll take my answers off the air."
>
> Caleb
>

Caleb,

I vote for groping.

This is what I just wrote on my profile at the Not Only Music community blog
profile (adapted from XA)

Composers: Tell us about how you compose. What tunings do you use? Does a
particular philosophy inform your work?
I compose in many different ways. I improvise a lot and I often find ideas
there which I then expand if I think its worth the work. Or I may use
Charles Ive’s maxim “Every great inspiration is but an experiment” and set
out to do something purposefully – like write a whole tone jazz tune or
counter-point in Orwell – 13 – or use a new piece of hardware or software.
While I appreciate my musical education my ear guides what I do. Theory is
like a map but it should never dictate your journey.

----------

That is to say I wouldn't or don't do what you are doing in preparation - I
just mostly do what I wrote above. Things have changed for me
significantly. In the late 70's and early 80's I *always* had a music staff
notebook with me and constantly wrote ideas as best as I could translate
from my head. Now of course my computer takes the notebook's place.
Production is really an after thought for me. My choice is to get out the
idea - not matter how crudely - in order to get to the next one. Only some
of my children do I lavish tons of attention on.

I don't know if that very personal view helps or not. Its my reality.

Chris

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 2:36 PM, calebmrgn <calebmrgn@...> wrote:

>
>
> To be clear, I'm not asking for advice, only for people to share stories if
> they want.
>
> Over the years, I've tried composing in a variety of styles and with
> different methods and different amounts of 'precomposition'--which can be
> anything from constructing 12-tone tables to building a synthesized
> orchestra to sketching a plot or graph of textures in advance.
>
> 13-limit JI has some new intervals, new possibilities I haven't tried
> before, and the geography of the scale I'm working with is unfamiliar. I've
> stuck little pieces of Post-its with the ratios on the keys of my keyboard.
> I'm practicing memorizing the locations of the various embedded scales--the
> O tonalities and U tonalities, if you will.
>
> I'm wondering when I'm going to be confident enough to dive in. More
> practice first for a while, or just start groping around?
>
> I'm curious how much the various composers here prepare before they
> actually start creating finished music and in what ways. How much do you
> 'internalize' the scale? How much do you plan?
>
> There's no right answers here. I'm just curious to hear stories about
> different amounts of preparation and of different outcomes based on that.
>
> (If this were a talk show, I'd say: "I'll take my answers off the air."
>
> Caleb
>
>
>

My practice of composition with the photosonic disk might be quite different from others.
However it seems to share completely Kraig's philosophy :

> It seems the longer one sticks to a given territory the more one > discovers.
> Regardless of the tuning, the more different ways one can look at > it and explore it the freer ones hand is.

I usually let the tuning open to a dialog between different instruments I feel would be pertinent for that idea.
The "instruments" can be specially homemade real instruments, or synthesized sounds that were inspired by the tuning idea, such as the "fractal waveforms" I have been developping for the photosonic disk, etc.
I may precise the tuning after listening to the timbres I arrived to from the tuning idea, depending also on how I can expand the scales in which I can draw these timbres on a disk.
I parallel, with more melodic disks, I will do some exploration of the scales available : which notes, which modes, using special methods of improvisation.
Until it becomes clearer what "palette" of sounds and notes, and in which order I want to have them on one given disk.
I learn to play them by improvisation, in concerts or other listening situations, and they become compositions.
- - - - - - -
Jacques

Caleb wrote :
>
> To be clear, I'm not asking for advice, only for people to share > stories if they want.
>
> Over the years, I've tried composing in a variety of styles and > with different methods and different amounts of 'precomposition'--> which can be anything from constructing 12-tone tables to building > a synthesized orchestra to sketching a plot or graph of textures in > advance.
>
> 13-limit JI has some new intervals, new possibilities I haven't > tried before, and the geography of the scale I'm working with is > unfamiliar. I've stuck little pieces of Post-its with the ratios on > the keys of my keyboard. I'm practicing memorizing the locations of > the various embedded scales--the O tonalities and U tonalities, if > you will.
>
> I'm wondering when I'm going to be confident enough to dive in. > More practice first for a while, or just start groping around?
>
> I'm curious how much the various composers here prepare before they > actually start creating finished music and in what ways. How much > do you 'internalize' the scale? How much do you plan?
>
> There's no right answers here. I'm just curious to hear stories > about different amounts of preparation and of different outcomes > based on that.
>
> (If this were a talk show, I'd say: "I'll take my answers off the > air."
>
> Caleb

Hello, Kraig, Jacques, and all.

Please let me agree with Kraig that knowing the tuning, really
being at home with it, is a critical preparation -- and also,
I would say, knowing the _sayr_ or _seyir_ of the music in the
intended mode, maqam, dastgah, or whatever.

The _sayr_ (Arabic) or _seyir_ (Turkish) means the "road" or
path over which the music will travel in a given maqam or
dastgah or whatever: the typical course of the melody, as
opposed to merely an abstract concept of scales, or patterns
of steps and intervals apart from such a "road" or procedure.

A useful saying I have, with a friendly nod toward Ozan:
"One seyir well learned is worth a world of theoretical tunings."

What I say applies to both composition and improvisation, with
the art of playing _taqsim_ (Arabic) or _taksim_ (Turkish) a
cherished tradition toward which I very dimly aspire. The
Persian _radif_, or repertory of modal families and themes
(dastgah-s and gushe-s), likewise is a set of patterns to be
learned and reinforced, traditionally by oral instruction,
over a period of many years, so that it is possible to
improvise (or compose) and make creative variations while
remaining within a style which has been completely internalized.

One thing I am finding with the Persian repertory is that
to understand a given dastgah or modal family such as Segah,
which Jacques and I have been discussing by comparison to
a Mohajira mode, it is very helpful to get some sense of the
different modal themes or gushe-s that make up Segah, not
only the Daramad or opening piece that sets a theme for
the dastgah as a whole. Indeed the gushe-s or themes that
are performed to make up the suite of a given dastgah are
often modes in their own right!

Once I looked seriously into the gushe-s of Segah, I quickly
confirmed Jacques' good advice that it is not wise to cut
up Segah into isolated tetrachords, some of which might fit
a "Mohajira" resemblance, rather than look at the the whole
seyir (I suspect that there is an appropriate term for this
in Farsi or one of the other languages spoken in Iran). Indeed,
very importantly for improvisation or composition, I learned
that a basic Segah Dastgah requires at least 10 notes -- and
that knowing not only which notes these are, but where and
when they occur in the main gushe-s, is one very good prelude
to exploring Iranian Segah.

Right now I'm getting ready to attempt some polyphony in
Maqam Penchgah. While I can explore some of the sonorities
and cadences available -- quite a beautiful set! -- knowing
the basic seyir would also be a good step! I'm looking at
some pieces available on the Web, and suspect that Ozan
could give some excellent advice on the usual course of
melodic development.

And, of course, how one approaches polyphony may depend
not only on the structure of a given maqam or dastgah,
but one's "standard techniques" of counterpoint or
harmony. Thus Ozan and I might both find Penchgah a
fine maqam for polyphony, but follow quite different
rules of counterpoint.

Part of the fun is that on the Tuning list, people are
here both to lend advice and expertise, and to share
compositions that provide fertile points of departure.
The Ethno2 contest is a fine example.

Today I was listening to some of the compositions both
from this recent concert and over the years from Shaahin
Mohajeri, which speak volumes about the skill, knowledge,
sensitivity, and courage needed to draw upon the musics
of the world and attempt something new.

By the way, my tendency to prepare shouldn't discourage
anyone from getting out there and exploring a mode or
tuning and learning through experience and feedback.
Sometimes I think that my mistake is to prepare, but
not sufficiently put that preparation into practice.

Best,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

Hello Margo~
A nice saying and more so in that i can take in a number of different ways.
One is thinking the depth one gets with having to go over and over something gives one an idea of where to look. Applying a similar way of looking at a set of tones can produce remarkable different results. An example one can look at the MOS like subsets of a scale and find different results in different numbered scales even if the principle is the same.
Second, is what my friend angel who taught music in Switzerland for 25 years thought.
He believe people go more looking at actual scores than harmony theory.
To go through a score and really get what the composers does is more important than generalizations.
Or so he thought.

The rest of your post reminds me of what I heard about the composer Nono scolding someone for not recognizing that all great art is guided by spirit,. He would not teach the person any more till they studied Renaissance art. This is how so many scales are used around the world. How the notes are used is as important than just the noun of what notes are used.
We all try our hands at scales but no of use have the means of matching often of what happens when such a spirit is passed through many hands. I don't think they evolve as much as they just become self aware through experience.
Yes to learn one such "road" is a long journey.
I like what Goethe said "If one has only pieces, then in pieces give"

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter <mschulter@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> A useful saying I have, with a friendly nod toward Ozan:
> "One seyir well learned is worth a world of theoretical tunings."
>
> Best,
>
> Margo Schulter
> mschulter@...
>

Thanks, Chris (And thanks for all the answers).

I've asked for personal, anecdotal answers, and I've gotten some. I'd be happy to hear more.

It's to be expected that they are implicitly or explicitly conditional or hypothetical. That is, IF you're doing X and you want Y, you can try doing Z.

I won't try to describe myself, except to say that my background and reality is definitely post-jazz, post-modernist, and American, and my problem is shame and discouragement and despair, not lack of knowledge. All That's Solid Melts into Air. There's (almost) no traditions and (certainly) no community, and that's ok.

"Where seldom is heard a discouraging word and the skies are not cloudy all day."

Caleb

On Jul 26, 2010, at 10:28 PM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> Caleb,
>
> I vote for groping.
>
> This is what I just wrote on my profile at the Not Only Music community blog profile (adapted from XA)
>
> Composers: Tell us about how you compose. What tunings do you use? Does a particular philosophy inform your work?
> I compose in many different ways. I improvise a lot and I often find ideas there which I then expand if I think its worth the work. Or I may use Charles Ive’s maxim “Every great inspiration is but an experiment” and set out to do something purposefully – like write a whole tone jazz tune or counter-point in Orwell – 13 – or use a new piece of hardware or software. While I appreciate my musical education my ear guides what I do. Theory is like a map but it should never dictate your journey.
>
> ----------
>
> That is to say I wouldn't or don't do what you are doing in preparation - I just mostly do what I wrote above. Things have changed for me significantly. In the late 70's and early 80's I *always* had a music staff notebook with me and constantly wrote ideas as best as I could translate from my head. Now of course my computer takes the notebook's place. Production is really an after thought for me. My choice is to get out the idea - not matter how crudely - in order to get to the next one. Only some of my children do I lavish tons of attention on.
>
> I don't know if that very personal view helps or not. Its my reality.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 2:36 PM, calebmrgn <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
>
> To be clear, I'm not asking for advice, only for people to share stories if they want.
>
> Over the years, I've tried composing in a variety of styles and with different methods and different amounts of 'precomposition'--which can be anything from constructing 12-tone tables to building a synthesized orchestra to sketching a plot or graph of textures in advance.
>
> 13-limit JI has some new intervals, new possibilities I haven't tried before, and the geography of the scale I'm working with is unfamiliar. I've stuck little pieces of Post-its with the ratios on the keys of my keyboard. I'm practicing memorizing the locations of the various embedded scales--the O tonalities and U tonalities, if you will.
>
> I'm wondering when I'm going to be confident enough to dive in. More practice first for a while, or just start groping around?
>
> I'm curious how much the various composers here prepare before they actually start creating finished music and in what ways. How much do you 'internalize' the scale? How much do you plan?
>
> There's no right answers here. I'm just curious to hear stories about different amounts of preparation and of different outcomes based on that.
>
> (If this were a talk show, I'd say: "I'll take my answers off the air."
>
> Caleb
>
>
>
>