Re: [tuning] Indonesian scales (was: artificial scales)

Christopher!
Yes another theroy ,but as i said not any more conclusive than the
others!

"Christopher J. Chapman" wrote:

> From: "Christopher J. Chapman" <christopher.chapman@conexant.com>
>
> [Kraig Grady, TD 562.14]:
> >I do not think we quite understand everything that is going on with
> >Balinese ( and the rest of indonesian) Scales. These scales have not
> >been successfully described by anyone. Since they are tuned by ear it
> >seems reasonable (but not conclusive) that there is some sort of
> >acoustical phenomenon going on.
>
> Bill Sethares has done a lot of research on Indonesian scales, which you
> can read about in his book, "Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale". He
> relates the tunings used in Indonesian gamelans to minima in dissonance
> curves calculated from the instrument's non-integer partials. If I
> remember correctly, he also gives examples of Indonesian tunings based
> on the minima in dissonance curves formed from the combination of
> non-integer partials from the gamelan instruments and integer partials
> (harmonics) from other instruments such as bowed stringed instruments
> that accompany the gamelan instruments.
>
> You can read a little about his book at the following webpage:
> http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/ttss.html
>
> Bill's homepage is:
> http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/
>
> I have read "Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale" and recommend it.
>
> Cheers,
> Christopher
>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Christopher!
I don't want to pick on Bill's fine work. For instance that one can find
the same or very similar family of scales in West Africa on balophones
points to these scales having another source besides timbre. Burmese harp
music is another example of a different type of Pelog occurring independent
of timbre. The variety of interval sizes in these scales is so wide, one
could find examples to illustrate the whole gambit of JI to ET. Also how
would the same timbre be the source for two completely different scales,
Slendro and Pelog? To be conclusive it would have to explain these
"variations" as well as being able to construct unique pelogs on one own
using his theory. One the other hand, if one looks at the "simultaneous"
tunings found within a Gagaku orchestra, I would tend to lean towards
Bill's theories as a very probable influence. In my own experience, i have
found that timbre can greatly change the perception of a scale to being
almost unrecognizable His work brings up these important questions They
need to be answered and he has laid the ground work for it!

"Christopher J. Chapman" wrote:

> Dr. Sethares' theory is consistent with his measurements of the
> Indonesian instruments' partials and their tunings based on many
> recording he made "in the field" in Indonesia. Do you have measurements
> of Indonesian instruments' partials and tunings that are not consistent
> with his theory? On what basis do you say that Dr. Sethares' work is
> "not any more conclusive than the others"?
>
> -- Christopher
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig wrote,

>Christopher!
> Yes another theroy ,but as i said not any more conclusive than the
others!

I have to agree with Kraig here -- Sethares' method is quite contrived, and
actual indonesian scales often feature different intervals in different
registers in order to get certain beat rates to agree (i.e., beating is
prized, rather than shunned, in many Gamelan tunings).

Good points, Kraig. I'd add that one of the most arbitrary features of
Sethares' theory is that he looks at the intervals of minimum beating
between one inharmonic and one harmonic instrument, and ignores the
interactions between two or more inharmonic instruments, let alone the large
variations in the timbre of these instruments and the fact that the
Indonesians actually _like_ beating! I do think timbre plays a role in
shaping tuning but not exactly in the way Sethares cooks up.