Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Materna

Gene,

Who did then?

I must download and listen.

Chris

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 8:07 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "genewardsmith"
> <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "john777music"
> <jfos777@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Gene,
> > > I had a listen to your Materna 7 limit JI piece.
> >
> > You did? How did you manage to do that? Can you give a url?
> >
>
> After writing that, it occurred to me that John might have gotten it from
> the files section of this group, and indeed there it is. Thanks, John, but I
> can't take much of the credit for writing Materna, of course.
>
>
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> Who did then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_A._Ward

The tune came to him while he was on a ferryboat trip from Coney Island back to his home in New York City, after a leisurely summer day in 1882, and he immediately wrote it down. He was so anxious to capture the tune in his head, he asked fellow passenger friend Harry Martin for his shirt cuff to write the tune on, thus perhaps the off the cuff analogy. He composed the tune for the old hymn "O Mother Dear, Jerusalem", retitling the work "Materna". Ward's music combined with Bates' poem were first published together in 1910 and titled, America the Beautiful.

> I must download and listen.

I'm not sure Samuel A. Ward would approve of my version, but here it is:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MLMqTA5gX4WZrvFBJ5w4lg2DXRAB7qV3Rwf2iiI53bAEKji8mx4UJ9-HCx8UyOGnei0A3B_O_P7N7sjoVg/GeneWardSmith/matji.mid

or just look in my folder in the Files section. It has a slightly xenharmonic sound because of the use of 7-limit harmonies, and was a part of a demonstration of the idea of adaptive tempering, the "before" part.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

It occurs to me that the American 4th of July holiday approaches, which Americans traditionally celebrate by eating hotdogs, making movies about alien invasions, and posting music to the Internet. So here's my little bit:

http://www.mediafire.com/?ynmmzjmynzm

http://download821.mediafire.com/awzonevxgzyg/ynmmzjmynzm/Materna+7+limit.mp3

Not sure which is right.

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Gene I have several gigs of soundfonts here

http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/sfbank/

free for the taking - many different instruments.

Chris

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:24 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
> > Get a new soundfont, or have you ditched
> > timidity?
>
> New soundfont. But I'd be happy to ditch Timidity, which has some problems, except so far no one has offered anything better.
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Thanks for this information - of course when I heard it I recognized it - I
did not know the piece had a title different from America the Beautiful.

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:17 PM, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...t
> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > Who did then?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_A._Ward
>
> The tune came to him while he was on a ferryboat trip from Coney Island
> back to his home in New York City, after a leisurely summer day in 1882, and
> he immediately wrote it down. He was so anxious to capture the tune in his
> head, he asked fellow passenger friend Harry Martin for his shirt cuff to
> write the tune on, thus perhaps the off the cuff analogy. He composed the
> tune for the old hymn "O Mother Dear, Jerusalem", retitling the work
> "Materna". Ward's music combined with Bates' poem were first published
> together in 1910 and titled, America the Beautiful.
>
>
> > I must download and listen.
>
> I'm not sure Samuel A. Ward would approve of my version, but here it is:
>
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MLMqTA5gX4WZrvFBJ5w4lg2DXRAB7qV3Rwf2iiI53bAEKji8mx4UJ9-HCx8UyOGnei0A3B_O_P7N7sjoVg/GeneWardSmith/matji.mid
>
> or just look in my folder in the Files section. It has a slightly
> xenharmonic sound because of the use of 7-limit harmonies, and was a part of
> a demonstration of the idea of adaptive tempering, the "before" part.
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

garritan personal orchesta is a nice alternative Gene. $150 for the latest scala supporting version.

See my piece Bridgeport 2 on www.chrisvaisvil.com for a 22edo piece made with it.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...>
Sender: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:21:07
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Re: Materna

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
> >
> > soundfont sf2 new Bank_Crisis GM V2.6.sf2
>
> Where can I get it? It's pretty much the best I've heard
> for brass from a free GM font.

I don't know; I think I may have gotten it before my eye trouble got too bad but never used it. Soundfonts and midi are not hot items any more, though what's replaced it I'm not sure.

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Yes, it costs money - but it is what people use instead of soundfonts
these days as far as I know.

If you discard having realistic sounds and go for synthetic sounds you
can still be completely free without too much trouble of course.

Chris

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > garritan personal orchesta is a nice alternative Gene.
>
> True that. Though I dare say I even liked the trumpet here
> better that what I've heard from GPO.
>
> > $150 for the latest scala supporting version.
>
> A good price, but infinitely more expensive than free. :)
>
> -Carl

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, it costs money - but it is what people use instead of soundfonts
> these days as far as I know.
>
> If you discard having realistic sounds and go for synthetic sounds you
> can still be completely free without too much trouble of course.

I don't know how "realistic" GPO is, or any sample-based set of sounds. IMVHO, trying to make a "fake" real orchestra doesn't work as well as making a "real" fake orchestra. Since the dawn of synthesizers, synth-programmers have sought to make simulacra of acoustic sounds, and while these sounds can be very nice, they never succeed in truly simulating the real thing. To make good electronic music, the most successful approach always seems to be one that recognizes and accepts the fact that electronic devices are being used, instead of trying to disguise it. At least for me personally, my music took a huge step forward when I decided to stop trying to "fake" the sound of a rock band and started emphasizing the electronic nature of my production techniques. The Ethno2 demos contain many great cases-in-point: really well-composed music that falls flat because it unsuccessfully seeks to emulate acoustic music. Toss a few obvious electronic tropes into some of those pieces, and they'd really come alive! These sample-sets can be really great, but only when taken as novel sounds unto themselves and not as simulacra. Elsewise, the obvious fakeness of the sound obscures the brilliance of the underlying compositions. In that sense, GPO is only a marginally more effective tool than SoundFonts.

A painting of a sunset can be a beautiful painting, but never can it be a beautiful sunset; likewise, a sampled or synthetic oud can be a nice sampled or synthetic oud, but it can never be a nice real oud.

-Igs

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

Since the dawn of synthesizers, synth-programmers have sought to make simulacra of acoustic sounds, and while these sounds can be very nice, they never succeed in truly simulating the real thing. To make good electronic music, the most successful approach always seems to be one that recognizes and accepts the fact that electronic devices are being used, instead of trying to disguise it.

I think there's way too much of that in the synth world. I've tried using Csound, and the problem is that as far as I can tell most of the people interested in it aren't interested in making music, but weird noises. Simulating all the midi instuuments would he a hell of a good start, but no on seems interested. There are instrument sounds out there, but the free ones I've tried sound like crap.

>At least for me personally, my music took a huge step forward when I decided to stop trying to "fake" the sound of a rock band and started emphasizing the electronic nature of my production techniques.

I'ds love to try that, but haven't a clue how.

>The Ethno2 demos contain many great cases-in-point: really well-composed music that falls flat because it unsuccessfully seeks to emulate acoustic music.

I liked them for the most part. But of course I can't use Ethno2 either. There's very little interest or support for people who want to work from a score data file (such as midi) of some kind.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

The only problem with that is I have heard (many) pieces with GPO that
are indistinguishable from a real recording.

One of the strength of GPO is the ability to humanize. It is also a
weakness because that amount of detail requires work just like a fine
painting. Work that not everyone cares to put in.

Here are some examples better than my work.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/71720-It-s-time-to-vote-for-Orchestral-Challenge-24

Chris

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:23 AM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it costs money - but it is what people use instead of soundfonts
> > these days as far as I know.
> >
> > If you discard having realistic sounds and go for synthetic sounds you
> > can still be completely free without too much trouble of course.
>
> I don't know how "realistic" GPO is, or any sample-based set of sounds. IMVHO, trying to make a "fake" real orchestra doesn't work as well as
> -Igs
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

The very best I have heard was Rusty Soul Flea Orchestra's rendition of
Appalachian Spring.

Unfortunately it is over 25 megs (its the full piece~!) and not available
online that I know of.
That one was incredible. However, I'm sure that required a great deal of
work.

As far as I know Vienna Symphony Orchestra Samples
http://vsl.co.at/
are the only sample set to include an interpretative software algorithm that
correctly executes expression as scored. While this is a great innovation
I've seen packages up to >10k shipped on a hard drive. Obviously not for
the hobbyist. And I did not see microtonal capabilities listed.

Chris

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > The only problem with that is I have heard (many) pieces with
> > GPO that are indistinguishable from a real recording.
> //
>
> > Here are some examples better than my work.
> >
> > http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/71720-It-s-
> > time-to-vote-for-Orchestral-Challenge-24
> >
>
> I listened to entries 6 & 8. They're very good, but in no
> danger of being confused with a real orchestra.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Here is the only remaining reference I can find

*Stewart, Jason; Creative Media Institute, NMSU*

*Rusty Soul Flea Orchestra*
The Rusty Soul Flea Orchestra (www.rustysoulfleaorchestra.com) is the brand
name of a system for producing music electronically. This demonstration is
the world premiere electronic performance of "Appalachian Spring" (1942) by
Aaron Copland. The production process begins with a musical notation
program. A full orchestral score is entered into the program and edited. The
playback function allows the use of software musical instruments, in this
case the Garritan Personal Orchestra. The music was performed by saving as a
.WAV sound file, converted to an .MP3 file and remixed. Software musical
instruments represent a revolution in the fields of music performance and
music education. The golden age of classical music centered around Vienna
and Paris occured as much because of the high concentration of virtuoso
instrumental musicians, composers, and conductors. That golden age ended
after that critical mass of talent dispersed. The economics of music
preclude the market from returning to that state; the performance of
orchestral music has become prohibitively expensive, though universities
insist on pursuing the study of only ancient musical instruments, such as
the bassoon. The literature remains. Software musical instruments are
capable of reintroducing the world and generations of future musicians to
that gold mine of masterpiece musical literature. These instruments also
allow for the democratization of music education, such that instruction can
be accomplished at a distance. Extension programs can now incorporate
general music curricula. The estimated cost to commission a full symphony
orchestra to record "Appalachian Spring" is $200,000. This performance was
produced with a capital investment of $2,000.

http://web.nmsu.edu/~wwwgsc/gras/presentationabstracts.html

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:

> The very best I have heard was Rusty Soul Flea Orchestra's rendition of
> Appalachian Spring.
>
> Unfortunately it is over 25 megs (its the full piece~!) and not available
> online that I know of.
> That one was incredible. However, I'm sure that required a great deal of
> work.
>
> As far as I know Vienna Symphony Orchestra Samples
> http://vsl.co.at/
> are the only sample set to include an interpretative software algorithm
> that correctly executes expression as scored. While this is a great
> innovation I've seen packages up to >10k shipped on a hard drive. Obviously
> not for the hobbyist. And I did not see microtonal capabilities listed.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
>> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > The only problem with that is I have heard (many) pieces with
>> > GPO that are indistinguishable from a real recording.
>> //
>>
>> > Here are some examples better than my work.
>> >
>> > http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/71720-It-s-
>> > time-to-vote-for-Orchestral-Challenge-24
>> >
>>
>> I listened to entries 6 & 8. They're very good, but in no
>> danger of being confused with a real orchestra.
>>
>> -Carl
>>
>>
>>
>
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
The golden age of classical music centered around Vienna
> and Paris occured as much because of the high concentration of virtuoso
> instrumental musicians, composers, and conductors. That golden age ended
> after that critical mass of talent dispersed.

I get it. The reason classical music is in such a dismal state is that orchestras like the Berlin Philharmonic, Concertgebouw, Vienna Philharmonic or Chicago Symphony Orchestra no longer exist, and so the music cannot be performed to a high standard. High school orchestras, all we have these days, are not up to the job I am sorry to say.

The economics of music
> preclude the market from returning to that state; the performance of
> orchestral music has become prohibitively expensive, though universities
> insist on pursuing the study of only ancient musical instruments, such as
> the bassoon.

Someone should tell Johnny Reinhard his bassoon is obsolete.

The literature remains. Software musical instruments are
> capable of reintroducing the world and generations of future musicians to
> that gold mine of masterpiece musical literature.

And best of all, most people will almost by reflex tune things accurately in 12 equal! To help that process along, software designers work hard to make doing anything else difficult.

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@...>

Sadly, I got a 404 on www.rustysoulfleaorchestra.com .

Anyway, I've been using soundfonts and Timidity++ since I'm not even sure GPO will run on my netbook, and I'd have to use Wine since it's running Ubuntu Linux so that would slow it down some more (I could just dual-boot this thing in Windows XP and Linux, I know). I've gotten passable results with the soundfonts I'm using, but I just want rough-draft demonstrations and MIDI mockups (like they use in film production anyway until they get a real orchestra for the finished product) than an attempt at a "realistic" recording.

You just have to sort through a whole bunch of .sf2 files, mix and match, configure Timidity to hell...

~D. ¶¦¬{> http://dannywier.ucoz.com

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Materna
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 3:43 PM

Here is the only remaining reference I can find

Stewart,
Jason; Creative Media Institute, NMSU
Rusty
Soul Flea Orchestra
The
Rusty Soul Flea Orchestra (www.rustysoulfleaorchestra.com) is the
brand name of a system for producing music electronically. This
demonstration is the world premiere electronic performance of
"Appalachian Spring" (1942) by Aaron Copland. The
production process begins with a musical notation program. A full
orchestral score is entered into the program and edited. The playback
function allows the use of software musical instruments, in this case
the Garritan Personal Orchestra. The music was performed by saving as
a .WAV sound file, converted to an .MP3 file and remixed. Software
musical instruments represent a revolution in the fields of music
performance and music education. The golden age of classical music
centered around Vienna and Paris occured as much because of the high
concentration of virtuoso instrumental musicians, composers, and
conductors. That golden age ended after that critical mass of talent
dispersed. The economics of music preclude the market from returning
to that state; the performance of orchestral music has become
prohibitively expensive, though universities insist on pursuing the
study of only ancient musical instruments, such as the bassoon. The
literature remains. Software musical instruments are capable of
reintroducing the world and generations of future musicians to that
gold mine of masterpiece musical literature. These instruments also
allow for the democratization of music education, such that
instruction can be accomplished at a distance. Extension programs can
now incorporate general music curricula. The estimated cost to
commission a full symphony orchestra to record "Appalachian
Spring" is $200,000. This performance was produced with a
capital investment of $2,000.

http://web.nmsu.edu/~wwwgsc/gras/presentationabstracts.html

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> The only problem with that is I have heard (many) pieces with GPO that
> are indistinguishable from a real recording.

Many, eh? Well, line 'em up! I've not heard a single one that I'd consider "indistinguishable".

> Here are some examples better than my work.
>
> http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/71720-It-s-time-to-vote-for-Orchestral-Challenge-24

Good, yes, for what they are; but not *remotely* close to "indistinguishable". Nothing against them, except that they sound fake. The closer to "realism" these sounds get, the worse it sounds when something (like a vibrato on a violin, say) slips into the realm of "fake". To simulate a huge ensemble all playing at once, it is possible to fool the ear if you use the best software, but to produce a solo instrument that sounds indistinguishable? Not a chance. Just a little bit of conspicuously-electronic "flair" would go a long way toward making "software orchestras" sound more palatable. If you're gonna make "electronic" music, why not play to the strengths of the medium? There's so much a computer can do that an orchestra can't. Listen to Venetian Snares' "My Downfall [OST]" and you'll see what I mean.

-Igs

> Chris
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:23 AM, cityoftheasleep
> <igliashon@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, it costs money - but it is what people use instead of soundfonts
> > > these days as far as I know.
> > >
> > > If you discard having realistic sounds and go for synthetic sounds you
> > > can still be completely free without too much trouble of course.
> >
> > I don't know how "realistic" GPO is, or any sample-based set of sounds. IMVHO, trying to make a "fake" real orchestra doesn't work as well as
> > -Igs
> >
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Igs

I'm not going to try to convince you. I don't think I could so it would be a
waste of time.

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:37 PM, cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>wrote:

>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > The only problem with that is I have heard (many) pieces with GPO that
> > are indistinguishable from a real recording.
>
> Many, eh? Well, line 'em up! I've not heard a single one that I'd consider
> "indistinguishable".
>
> > Here are some examples better than my work.
> >
> >
> http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/71720-It-s-time-to-vote-for-Orchestral-Challenge-24
>
> Good, yes, for what they are; but not *remotely* close to
> "indistinguishable". Nothing against them, except that they sound fake. The
> closer to "realism" these sounds get, the worse it sounds when something
> (like a vibrato on a violin, say) slips into the realm of "fake". To
> simulate a huge ensemble all playing at once, it is possible to fool the ear
> if you use the best software, but to produce a solo instrument that sounds
> indistinguishable? Not a chance. Just a little bit of
> conspicuously-electronic "flair" would go a long way toward making "software
> orchestras" sound more palatable. If you're gonna make "electronic" music,
> why not play to the strengths of the medium? There's so much a computer can
> do that an orchestra can't. Listen to Venetian Snares' "My Downfall [OST]"
> and you'll see what I mean.
>
> -Igs
>
>
> > Chris
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:23 AM, cityoftheasleep
> > <igliashon@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris
> Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it costs money - but it is what people use instead of soundfonts
> > > > these days as far as I know.
> > > >
> > > > If you discard having realistic sounds and go for synthetic sounds
> you
> > > > can still be completely free without too much trouble of course.
> > >
> > > I don't know how "realistic" GPO is, or any sample-based set of sounds.
> IMVHO, trying to make a "fake" real orchestra doesn't work as well as
> > > -Igs
> > >
> >
>
>
>

Materna

🔗john777music <jfos777@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>