New And A Few Questions

Hi everyone. I am new here. I am also new to just tunings over all. I work on acoustic guitar and also writing music/programming music into Sibelius and Logic Express.
I do not know about tuning ratios and the math involved so to mix metaphors up, your math is greek to me =)

I work the tunings options in Logic Express now. How many here use the same DAW?
Could one adjust the tunings forther in Logic?
Also it would be counter productive if all the VI's are in say one just tuning but my guitar is still tuned to Equal Temp, isn't it?

Catrina

Hi Catrina, welcome to the Tuning List!
I work in Logic as well, and it is quite possible to adjust the tunings further. If you select the "User" option in the "Project Settings>Tuning" dialog, you can tweak the pitch of each of the 12 notes in the octave as much as 100 cents (one semitone) sharp or flat, at a resolution of 0.1 cents. So if you have a particular microtonal scale that you want to try, and you know the cents values of each step of the scale (in one octave), you can manually retune Logic to that scale (provided the scale has no more than 12 notes per octave, and no given note is further than 1 semitone from its nearest 12-tET "counterpart").

You are correct that having Logic in a pure tuning will conflict with your equal-tempered guitar. However, Logic's "Pitch Correction" plug-in can be set to use the "global" tuning, so if you have a monophonic guitar part, you can pitch-correct it to match the "pure" notes. Not the best way to go about things, of course, but it can get the job done in a pinch. Or so I assume; I've never tried it myself, but it seems like it should work!

Perhaps you could introduce yourself a bit? What is your background, and what led you to microtonality?

HTH!

-Igliashon Jones

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Domina Catrina Lee" <ahulijing@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone. I am new here. I am also new to just tunings over all. I work on acoustic guitar and also writing music/programming music into Sibelius and Logic Express.
> I do not know about tuning ratios and the math involved so to mix metaphors up, your math is greek to me =)
>
> I work the tunings options in Logic Express now. How many here use the same DAW?
> Could one adjust the tunings forther in Logic?
> Also it would be counter productive if all the VI's are in say one just tuning but my guitar is still tuned to Equal Temp, isn't it?
>
> Catrina
>

Hi Igliashon,I trust I have your name spelled correctly =)
I meant to reply sooner, but I have been too busy. I did not wish to have you think i had abandoned this mailing list or you.
Well, I am in Singapore. I have always loved Indian classical music although I am Chinese and have not had any training in Indian music at all. I came to listen to a great deal of progressive rock and later on jazz rock fusion in my late teens, artists such as Mike Oldfield and John McLaughlin still play a big influence on how I compose my own music. 
McLaughlin in particular had experimented with his all Indian group Shakti where I presume microtonality played a major role in shaping the music. I believe he did not use a just tuned guitar but a conventionally tuned instrument but with scalloped fingerboard which allowed him some access to 'the in between notes'. 
Much later on I discovered what some people call 'new music' - I especially enjoyed Steve Reich and Lou Harrison. I like Somei Satoh as well and while I know Reich does not use any alternate tunings for his music, Harrison and Satoh did. The sonorities cannot be gotten with tempered tuning I am sure. I also play (besides the conventional guitar) a small Indonesian recorder which resists accompaniment simply because it is tuned to another system altogether, but it sounds truly beguiling.
As for your suggestion to utilise Logic's Pitch Correction for audio tracks like my guitar parts, I don t know if I would even try. First I have already tried their 'audio to MIDI' option with simple and clear monophonic lines and it did not track at all well. Many attempts in fact. I can only assume their Pitch Correction would be as good, don t you think? I might change my mind, as I do not have the means to obtain third party tuning altering software at this time, I m just playing a budget guitar as it is.
I have made a CD of music done entirely by me and writing new music for a 2nd CD seeing as how well the first did (it didnt do well at all). This new music has already been set in Logic to various tunings, some in Hermode tuning, several use one or two Chinese tunings and one uses a Gamelan tuning. Then I play my guitar along - God it is like La Monte Young, so out of tune ;)
So I must make adjustments some how...

Catrina

http://cdbaby.com/cd/dominacatrina

http://www.youtube.com/user/HuLiXD

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

From: cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: New And A Few Questions
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 7:09 AM

Hi Catrina, welcome to the Tuning List!

I work in Logic as well, and it is quite possible to adjust the tunings further. If you select the "User" option in the "Project Settings>Tuning" dialog, you can tweak the pitch of each of the 12 notes in the octave as much as 100 cents (one semitone) sharp or flat, at a resolution of 0.1 cents. So if you have a particular microtonal scale that you want to try, and you know the cents values of each step of the scale (in one octave), you can manually retune Logic to that scale (provided the scale has no more than 12 notes per octave, and no given note is further than 1 semitone from its nearest 12-tET "counterpart").

You are correct that having Logic in a pure tuning will conflict with your equal-tempered guitar. However, Logic's "Pitch Correction" plug-in can be set to use the "global" tuning, so if you have a monophonic guitar part, you can pitch-correct it to match the "pure" notes. Not the best way to go about things, of course, but it can get the job done in a pinch. Or so I assume; I've never tried it myself, but it seems like it should work!

Perhaps you could introduce yourself a bit? What is your background, and what led you to microtonality?

HTH!

-Igliashon Jones

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Domina Catrina Lee" <ahulijing@...> wrote:

>

> Hi everyone. I am new here. I am also new to just tunings over all. I work on acoustic guitar and also writing music/programming music into Sibelius and Logic Express.

> I do not know about tuning ratios and the math involved so to mix metaphors up, your math is greek to me =)

>

> I work the tunings options in Logic Express now. How many here use the same DAW?

> Could one adjust the tunings forther in Logic?

> Also it would be counter productive if all the VI's are in say one just tuning but my guitar is still tuned to Equal Temp, isn't it?

>

> Catrina

>

For what it is worth I have had a good experience with removing the frets off of a cheap used electric guitar. See www.chrisvaisvil.com for an example.

If interested
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Hu Li Jing <ahulijing@yahoo.com>
Sender: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 05:39:22
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: New And A Few Questions

Hi Igliashon,I trust I have your name spelled correctly =)
I meant to reply sooner, but I have been too busy. I did not wish to have you think i had abandoned this mailing list or you.
Well, I am in Singapore. I have always loved Indian classical music although I am Chinese and have not had any training in Indian music at all. I came to listen to a great deal of progressive rock and later on jazz rock fusion in my late teens, artists such as Mike Oldfield and John McLaughlin still play a big influence on how I compose my own music. 
McLaughlin in particular had experimented with his all Indian group Shakti where I presume microtonality played a major role in shaping the music. I believe he did not use a just tuned guitar but a conventionally tuned instrument but with scalloped fingerboard which allowed him some access to 'the in between notes'. 
Much later on I discovered what some people call 'new music' - I especially enjoyed Steve Reich and Lou Harrison. I like Somei Satoh as well and while I know Reich does not use any alternate tunings for his music, Harrison and Satoh did. The sonorities cannot be gotten with tempered tuning I am sure. I also play (besides the conventional guitar) a small Indonesian recorder which resists accompaniment simply because it is tuned to another system altogether, but it sounds truly beguiling.
As for your suggestion to utilise Logic's Pitch Correction for audio tracks like my guitar parts, I don t know if I would even try. First I have already tried their 'audio to MIDI' option with simple and clear monophonic lines and it did not track at all well. Many attempts in fact. I can only assume their Pitch Correction would be as good, don t you think? I might change my mind, as I do not have the means to obtain third party tuning altering software at this time, I m just playing a budget guitar as it is.
I have made a CD of music done entirely by me and writing new music for a 2nd CD seeing as how well the first did (it didnt do well at all). This new music has already been set in Logic to various tunings, some in Hermode tuning, several use one or two Chinese tunings and one uses a Gamelan tuning. Then I play my guitar along - God it is like La Monte Young, so out of tune ;)
So I must make adjustments some how...

Catrina

http://cdbaby.com/cd/dominacatrina

http://www.youtube.com/user/HuLiXD

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, cityoftheasleep <igliashon@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: cityoftheasleep <igliashon@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [tuning] Re: New And A Few Questions
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 7:09 AM

Hi Catrina, welcome to the Tuning List!

I work in Logic as well, and it is quite possible to adjust the tunings further. If you select the "User" option in the "Project Settings>Tuning" dialog, you can tweak the pitch of each of the 12 notes in the octave as much as 100 cents (one semitone) sharp or flat, at a resolution of 0.1 cents. So if you have a particular microtonal scale that you want to try, and you know the cents values of each step of the scale (in one octave), you can manually retune Logic to that scale (provided the scale has no more than 12 notes per octave, and no given note is further than 1 semitone from its nearest 12-tET "counterpart").

You are correct that having Logic in a pure tuning will conflict with your equal-tempered guitar. However, Logic's "Pitch Correction" plug-in can be set to use the "global" tuning, so if you have a monophonic guitar part, you can pitch-correct it to match the "pure" notes. Not the best way to go about things, of course, but it can get the job done in a pinch. Or so I assume; I've never tried it myself, but it seems like it should work!

Perhaps you could introduce yourself a bit? What is your background, and what led you to microtonality?

HTH!

-Igliashon Jones

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Domina Catrina Lee" <ahulijing@...> wrote:

>

> Hi everyone. I am new here. I am also new to just tunings over all. I work on acoustic guitar and also writing music/programming music into Sibelius and Logic Express.

> I do not know about tuning ratios and the math involved so to mix metaphors up, your math is greek to me =)

>

> I work the tunings options in Logic Express now. How many here use the same DAW?

> Could one adjust the tunings forther in Logic?

> Also it would be counter productive if all the VI's are in say one just tuning but my guitar is still tuned to Equal Temp, isn't it?

>

> Catrina

>

Hi Catrina,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hu Li Jing <ahulijing@...> wrote:
> McLaughlin in particular had experimented with his all Indian group Shakti where I presume microtonality played a major role in shaping the music. I believe he did not use a just tuned guitar but a conventionally tuned instrument but with scalloped fingerboard which allowed him some access to 'the in between notes'. 
>

Shakti is one of my all-time favorite groups...McLaughlin is practically in another world, as far as guitar players go.

>
I also play (besides the conventional guitar) a small Indonesian recorder which resists accompaniment simply because it is tuned to another system altogether, but it sounds truly beguiling.
>

Well, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak Logic's "User" tuning to match your recorder, assuming you've got a decent ear ;->. Just hold each note on the recorder while playing the nearest key on the keyboard while you tweak the pitch of that key up or down until it matches the recorder. Then you'll be able to see what kind of scale that recorder is really tuned to, and you can accompany it with Logic's synths!

>
As for your suggestion to utilise Logic's Pitch Correction for audio tracks like my guitar parts, I don t know if I would even try. First I have already tried their 'audio to MIDI' option with simple and clear monophonic lines and it did not track at all well. Many attempts in fact. I can only assume their Pitch Correction would be as good, don t you think? I might change my mind, as I do not have the means to obtain third party tuning altering software at this time, I m just playing a budget guitar as it is.
>

Well, that's a shame. I had higher hopes for Logic's pitch-tracking features, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Well, the other alternative is of course to use a slide on your guitar, and tune it to an open Just chord (Harry Partch basically employed this same approach). Or you could try a fretless instrument...if you're in Singapore, you should have no trouble finding a guqin for cheap. Or you could just take the frets off of your guitar, fill in the slots with wood-putty, and paint on position markers under each string for all the Just pitches you want (you can find the pitches by ear, just play the desired pitch on the keyboard and move your finger around on the string until you find the right spot for it). Actually, if you don't mind using what is basically a "drone" tuning (tune all your open strings to the same note, or maybe the same two notes), there's a simple method of using fishing line to make frets. If you're interested in this method, contact me off-list and I can walk you through it, I've used it myself on a few guitars.

Hope that helps!

-Igliashon

Here is a link to information on how I made the fretless - much like
Igs described, along with a couple photographs.

http://notonlymusic.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=356

Chris

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Domina Catrina Lee <ahulijing@...> wrote:
>
>
>

>
> Catrina
>
>

--- On Sun, 6/27/10, Domina Catrina Lee <ahulijing@...> wrote:

> From: Domina Catrina Lee <ahulijing@...>
> Subject: [tuning] New And A Few Questions
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 12:02 PM
> Hi everyone. I am new here. I am also
> new to just tunings over all. I work on acoustic guitar and
> also writing music/programming music into Sibelius and Logic
> Express.
> I do not know about tuning ratios and the math involved so
> to mix metaphors up, your math is greek to me =)

Hello and welcome to the list!

You do know that in just intonation, it's all basic arithmetic, right? You multiply a frequency by two to get an octave, 1.5 (3/2) for a fifth, and so on. You'd want to Google for a crash course, or at least read the Wikipedia article, or if you want to get a little deaper, buy or borrow David Doty's The Just Intonation Primer. Equal temperament involves powers, roots and logarithms, on the other hand, but still no advanced calculus here.

There's a good wiki on various topics here: http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/ .

~D. http://dannywier.ucoz.com

> I work the tunings options in Logic Express now. How many
> here use the same DAW?
> Could one adjust the tunings forther in Logic?
> Also it would be counter productive if all the  VI's
> are in say one just tuning but my guitar is still tuned to
> Equal Temp, isn't it?
>
> Catrina

Hi Igliashon,copying and pasting your name gets it right every single time, miraculous ;)
Onto commenting on your suggestions:Well, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak Logic's "User" tuning to match your recorder, assuming you've got a decent ear ;->. Just hold each note on the recorder while playing the nearest key on the keyboard while you tweak the pitch of that key up or down until it matches the recorder. Then you'll be able to see what kind of scale that recorder is really tuned to, and you can accompany it with Logic's synths!

Why didn't I think of that? This one is for me to file away for a future time when I get a decent microphone where I can record acoustic instruments at 4 am in the morning ;)
But as far as 'decent' ears....I don't know. I tune my guitar electronically and my ears tell me a string is in tune but visually I can see it is several cents off. Hmmmm. I can't sense cents. :/
I find that another Shakti listener in this mailing list almost too much to bear.Tell me about your work in music, I am all ears, 
Catrina

http://cdbaby.com/cd/dominacatrina

http://www.youtube.com/user/HuLiXD

--- On Tue, 6/29/10, cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

From: cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: New And A Few Questions
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 5:54 PM

Hi Catrina,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hu Li Jing <ahulijing@...> wrote:

> McLaughlin in particular had experimented with his all Indian group Shakti where I presume microtonality played a major role in shaping the music. I believe he did not use a just tuned guitar but a conventionally tuned instrument but with scalloped fingerboard which allowed him some access to 'the in between notes'. 

>

Shakti is one of my all-time favorite groups...McLaughlin is practically in another world, as far as guitar players go.

>

I also play (besides the conventional guitar) a small Indonesian recorder which resists accompaniment simply because it is tuned to another system altogether, but it sounds truly beguiling.

>

>

As for your suggestion to utilise Logic's Pitch Correction for audio tracks like my guitar parts, I don t know if I would even try. First I have already tried their 'audio to MIDI' option with simple and clear monophonic lines and it did not track at all well. Many attempts in fact. I can only assume their Pitch Correction would be as good, don t you think? I might change my mind, as I do not have the means to obtain third party tuning altering software at this time, I m just playing a budget guitar as it is.

>

Well, that's a shame. I had higher hopes for Logic's pitch-tracking features, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Well, the other alternative is of course to use a slide on your guitar, and tune it to an open Just chord (Harry Partch basically employed this same approach). Or you could try a fretless instrument...if you're in Singapore, you should have no trouble finding a guqin for cheap. Or you could just take the frets off of your guitar, fill in the slots with wood-putty, and paint on position markers under each string for all the Just pitches you want (you can find the pitches by ear, just play the desired pitch on the keyboard and move your finger around on the string until you find the right spot for it). Actually, if you don't mind using what is basically a "drone" tuning (tune all your open strings to the same note, or maybe the same two notes), there's a simple method of using fishing line to make frets. If you're interested in this
method, contact me off-list and I can walk you through it, I've used it myself on a few guitars.

Hope that helps!

-Igliashon

Much obliged, Chris, and welcome to the list (oops the last part is supposed to be your line...)
;)

Catrina

http://cdbaby.com/cd/dominacatrina

http://www.youtube.com/user/HuLiXD

--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [tuning] New And A Few Questions
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 6:08 PM

Here is a link to information on how I made the fretless - much like

Igs described, along with a couple photographs.

http://notonlymusic.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=356

Chris

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Domina Catrina Lee <ahulijing@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Catrina

>

>