vibrato and intonation

Would list members generaly agree that vibrato
is bad for intonation? How could one possibly
lock into an interval if the note is shaking
around like a...can't think of a good one that
won't offend anyone, hopefully you get the idea.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

I was listening to opera singers (tenors, sopranos) from the 20s and 30s and
the best ones did not use vibrato as much. In fact, the original Bel Canto
style is about singing with power and warmth but in a direct, unified tone.
I have thought about this problem for a long time trying to get singers to
"stop the vibrato" but I realize it is a standard style that started about 20
years ago and all the voice coaches teach it and everyone has it built into
their vocal production. This erroneous technique produces voices that are
too similar and too smooth, where the evenness of the sound take precedence
over the interpretation and even the pitch.

David Beardsley started with:

> Would list members generaly agree that vibrato
> is bad for intonation?

If one's intent in singing/playing is to produce pure intervals, then
vibrato is certainly to be avoided because it results in instantaneously
varying intervallic structure, so you can't as easily hear the (presumably
beautiful, justly intoned) intervals themselves.

If one's purpose is expression, or if one likes the variance, then vibrato
has a definite place. Presence of vibrato does make it hard to "lock" on an
interval. I don't quite understand the point, though, of avoiding vibrato or
locking on intervals in real music. Or was the question just a hypothetical
one?

Elodi010@aol.com continued with:

> I was listening to opera singers (tenors, sopranos) from the 20s
> and 30s and the best ones did not use vibrato as much.

Try listening to Concita Supervia, circa mid 1930s. She had a fabulous
measured vibrato unequaled in the west and probably only surpassed by the
great singers of India... ;-)

I was unclear about your meaning in the following sentence:

> I have thought about this problem for a long time trying to get
> singers to "stop the vibrato" but I realize it is a standard style
> that started about 20 years ago

Which is a standard style that started about 20 years ago? With vibrato?
Or without Vibrato? I tend to doubt that either case is that new.

> This erroneous technique produces voices that are too similar
> and too smooth

Which erroneous technique? With or without vibrato?

Rick

Rick McGowan wrote:

> David Beardsley started with:
>
> > Would list members generaly agree that vibrato
> > is bad for intonation?
>
> If one's intent in singing/playing is to produce pure intervals, then
> vibrato is certainly to be avoided because it results in instantaneously
> varying intervallic structure, so you can't as easily hear the (presumably
> beautiful, justly intoned) intervals themselves.
>
> If one's purpose is expression, or if one likes the variance, then vibrato
> has a definite place. Presence of vibrato does make it hard to "lock" on an
> interval. I don't quite understand the point, though, of avoiding vibrato or
> locking on intervals in real music. Or was the question just a hypothetical
> one?

Not hypothetical at all. Even before I got interested
in tuning matters I didn't like a lot of vibrato
in pitch. Rock guitar players I can deal with
but singers, violin, viola and cello players
get way out of hand. Obviously if someone
has to sing a 1/1, 3/2 or a 5/4 and adds any vibrato
they're not singing in tune. The Beach Boys
or their inspiration the Four Freshman
sing beatless harmonies without vibrato.

If your intent is expression, slide between
pitches like Hindustani Classical. There's precision.
Wacky vibrato does not make in tune music.

If your pitch is not on then it's not in tune.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Jay here,
The width of "acceptable" vibrato never ceases to amaze and dismay me. Many
of the singers of great repute woble over an interval of a major second up
to something suspiciously close to a minor third. We sure could do with more
singers like Fischer-Dieskau and Victoria de Los Angeles. They had absolute
control over how much vibrato they wanted at any moment and they could turn
it on and off with startling effect.
At 07:28 PM 3/2/00 -0500, you wrote:
>From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>
>
>Would list members generaly agree that vibrato
>is bad for intonation? How could one possibly
>lock into an interval if the note is shaking
>around like a...can't think of a good one that
>won't offend anyone, hopefully you get the idea.
>
>
>--
>* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
>* xouoxno@virtulink.com
>*
>* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
>* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
>*
>* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>MAXIMIZE YOUR CARD, MINIMIZE YOUR RATE!
>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as
>0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
>Apply NOW!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/2122/0/_/239029/_/952043319/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
>email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
> tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
> tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
> tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.
>
>
>
>

ElodiLO10 ?????? said:
>
> I was listening to opera singers (tenors, sopranos) from the 20s and 30s and
> the best ones did not use vibrato as much. In fact, the original Bel Canto
> style is about singing with power and warmth but in a direct, unified tone.
> I have thought about this problem for a long time trying to get singers to
> "stop the vibrato" but I realize it is a standard style that started about 20
> years ago and all the voice coaches teach it and everyone has it built into
> their vocal production. This erroneous technique produces voices that are
> too similar and too smooth, where the evenness of the sound take precedence
> over the interpretation and even the pitch.

Your use of the words "all the voice coaches" and "everyone" exposes your
na�vet�. (Don't apologize. We were all there once.) Vibrato is different
things to different people. Negative words such as "wobble" and "tremelo"
have been used to describe "erroneous technique" in singing. Is that what
you are referring to as "vibrato." If so, you are using the word "vibrato"
in a different sense than most teachers of voice.

Vibrato is a vocal characteristic that emerges quite naturally when singers
_release_ tension in the vocal mechanism. While Asian vocal styles use less
vibrato than most Western vocal styles, it is still there. The most strident
styles are those in which the singer "clutches" the vocal cords in order to
prevent this natural fluctuation from occurring.

Some jazz singers use vibrato as an expressive element by using it to
"color" the end of a phrase. Some "classical" singers use it continually,
thus eliminating it as an artistic element in their performances.

I would like to invite you to rethink your statement that vibrato is an
"erroneous technique."

Jerry

Vibrato is a treacherous subject: John Cage publicly railed against it,
largely in reaction to opera singers. It was objectionable to Harry Partch
as constituted by his abhorrence of "the trained voice." For me, jazz
stylist Sarah Vaughn is difficult to listen to because her vibrato was so
regular and wide. I prefer Whitney Houston for her vibrato control.

Until the 20th century, there was no tradition of vibrato for winds and
strings. Some instruments, like the clarinet and the horn, still have
traditions which prohibit vibrato. Voice, like so many other instruments in
12TET, uses vibrato effectively to dull the "compromise" in equal
temperament. It also aids in disguising poor intonation, especially with
many on a part.

Jerry, I don't believe that the vibrato in the voice is all that natural.
For my part, when directing choirs in just intonation in music of Binchois
and Palestrina, vibrato is OUT. It ruins the power inherent in the tuning,
effectively marring it like graffiti. For minimally tempered music, as in
1/4 comma meantone, some vibrato, added to taste, is simply sublime.

However, vibrato as a normal condition is an unnecessary sideshow, in my
opinion.
There is a natural "jitter" produced by the heartbeat, as reported by Rudolf
Rasch, but it accounts for less than 2 cents.

Any argument for the natural necessary-ness of vibrato has been disproved by
the ability of those who do not employ it when they will it. I've heard
before from a trained soprano that vibrato was only natural in female voices
and that forcing a female to stop using vibrato was an example of male
domination (in contrast to straight-singing boys). Though this singer still
struggles with her use of vibrato, her argument seems to have long been
dropped.

Worse, is when vibrato becomes a bad habit that musicians simply can't break
off. Ever hear the old joke of the violinist that was wagging his fingers
even after the conductor asked for non-vibrato? He argued that the stopped
finger was not moving, only its mates.

An example of exquisite vibrato is when a classical guitarist lift her or his
instrument and shakes it in the air on a final chord. For solo playing, I've
learned at least 7 different vibrati for playing bassoon, sometimes in
combination. Often, I choose not to use it, or to let it emanate per taste,
regulating its rate as I do dynamics.

Johnny Reinhard
AFMM

Hi,

I thought I'd add to Johnny's informative post perhaps some some
extraneous observations. My own elementary training in a few instruments
treated vibrato in different manners, from none at all - hunting horn -
to obligatory - guitar, in the end all but discarded (with much of the
training) for an idea of vibrato as a sort of extended technique.

The American parlor organ employs two deliberate effects to a related
end: A 'Vox Humana' stop often engages a mechanism which fluctuates the
vacuum of the reservoir resulting more properly in a tremelo despite
it's more obvious reference to vocal vibrato, alternately it may mean a
secondary rank of reeds mistuned slightly as to beat against the
primary. Of one type of the former method, Horton Presley writes in
_Restoring and Collecting Antique Reed Organs_, "To be perfectly
frank,...It reminds me of some church choir sopranos I have heard who
never seem to find a note to light on."

Its contemporary square pianos suffer a vibrato of sorts as a result of
their unfortunate enlargment from earlier, lighter relatives. In nearly
all examples the earlier bridge and soundboard design is retained, while
tensions and hammer size were increased resulting in very prominent
false beats across their compass. More recently, such falseness usually
is isolated and attributed to mistakes, though 1880's Steinway grands
(and imitations) may have slight bevels in at least one tenor section,
while Baldwin seems to have continued this through the 1960's in their
concert grands and even more radically in cheap uprights.

It is interesting to find these variously imitative measures in fixed
pitch instruments, and it would seem to me that similar degrees would
have occurred, perhaps earlier, for those where vibrato is accomplished
more easily.

Regards,

Clark