Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning [tuning] PianoTeq actually does modify a Scala file

Dear Caleb,

> Again, the tuning is 100% accurate in PianoTeq, and the keyboard map works there, too.

I recently tried the microtonal possibiities of PianoTeq myself. I liked this software a lot (e.g., besides its expressiveness -- missing in a sampling-based instrument like Ethno2 -- the pitches and intervals are also more clear than in virtually all Ethno2 instruments I tried).

Nevertheless, PianoTeq actually does some clever retuning of your Scala files. For example, as a test you may have some relatively simple JI scale and then a copy of that scale transposed by some small interval without transposing the root 1/1. When comparing these two tunings with PianoTeq you will realise that the transposed copy actually is not (or hardly) transposed, but instead its root 1/1 is!

In the documentation they explain this retuning optimises a given tuning for the inharmonicities of the strings (however, it appears to work in exactly the same way for pianos and harpsichords, hm...).

Best,
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de
________________________________________
From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of caleb morgan [calebmrgn@...]
Sent: 10 June 2010 16:42
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Ethno 2 user tuning assistance

Alas, I was too hasty.

It sees the files in the Tuning > User Presets sections, and the scale (36 note 11-limit Just) is close, but the upper register is all wrong.

Also, while the keyboard map shows up in Tuning > User Presets, it won't use it. It reverts back to 12-tones. This wouldn't be a problem, but the tuning base is wrong.

However, I can drag and drop the k map directly to the Ethno 2 tuning window, and the name appears there, but the Ethno 2 goes silent.

So, it doesn't like the keyboard map, and it's not doing the tuning accurately.

Again, the tuning is 100% accurate in PianoTeq, and the keyboard map works there, too.

Maybe this thread will be a little longer.

On Jun 10, 2010, at 11:23 AM, caleb morgan wrote:

Bingo!

Shortest thread, ever!

Thanks, cameron.

I wonder why the directions have you drag and drop the files directly to the Ethno 2 tuning windows?

Oh well, this works. That's all that matters.

caleb

On Jun 10, 2010, at 11:06 AM, cameron wrote:

Put your .scl and .kbd into the appropriate folders located with the program, (C:program files/MOTU/user presets or something like that)
They'll show up in the drop boxes on the Ethno2 interface.

There remains a bug on Windows- it will fail to name your .kbd. For example it'll say "0" rather than your user .kbd name. But the .kbd remains loaded, so this doesn't affect the performance.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com<mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "calebmrgn" <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
>
> When I drag my tuning to the Ethno 2 tuning window (as instructed) it appears there. But the scale isn't quite accurately in tune. It bears some resemblance, but that's all.
>
> When I drag my keyboard mapping into the Ethno 2 tuning window instead of using the presets, the Ethno 2 simply becomes silent.
>
> These two files work with the Pianoteq 3, so what needs to be done to make them work with the Ethno 2?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>

🔗caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...>

That's interesting, and impressive.

But, just so we're clear, whatever the problem with the Ethno 2 (or my Scala files, or Mac) it's not a subtle problem. The tuning is way off--not even close, and the map isn't working at all.

caleb

On Jun 10, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:

> Dear Caleb,
>
>> Again, the tuning is 100% accurate in PianoTeq, and the keyboard map works there, too.
>
> I recently tried the microtonal possibiities of PianoTeq myself. I liked this software a lot (e.g., besides its expressiveness -- missing in a sampling-based instrument like Ethno2 -- the pitches and intervals are also more clear than in virtually all Ethno2 instruments I tried).
>
> Nevertheless, PianoTeq actually does some clever retuning of your Scala files. For example, as a test you may have some relatively simple JI scale and then a copy of that scale transposed by some small interval without transposing the root 1/1. When comparing these two tunings with PianoTeq you will realise that the transposed copy actually is not (or hardly) transposed, but instead its root 1/1 is!
>
> In the documentation they explain this retuning optimises a given tuning for the inharmonicities of the strings (however, it appears to work in exactly the same way for pianos and harpsichords, hm...).
>
> Best,
> Torsten
>
> --
> Torsten Anders
> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
> University of Plymouth
> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
> http://www.torsten-anders.de
> ________________________________________
> From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of caleb morgan [calebmrgn@...]
> Sent: 10 June 2010 16:42
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Ethno 2 user tuning assistance
>
> Alas, I was too hasty.
>
> It sees the files in the Tuning > User Presets sections, and the scale (36 note 11-limit Just) is close, but the upper register is all wrong.
>
> Also, while the keyboard map shows up in Tuning > User Presets, it won't use it. It reverts back to 12-tones. This wouldn't be a problem, but the tuning base is wrong.
>
> However, I can drag and drop the k map directly to the Ethno 2 tuning window, and the name appears there, but the Ethno 2 goes silent.
>
> So, it doesn't like the keyboard map, and it's not doing the tuning accurately.
>
> Again, the tuning is 100% accurate in PianoTeq, and the keyboard map works there, too.
>
> Maybe this thread will be a little longer.
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2010, at 11:23 AM, caleb morgan wrote:
>
>
>
> Bingo!
>
> Shortest thread, ever!
>
> Thanks, cameron.
>
> I wonder why the directions have you drag and drop the files directly to the Ethno 2 tuning windows?
>
> Oh well, this works. That's all that matters.
>
> caleb
>
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2010, at 11:06 AM, cameron wrote:
>
>
>
> Put your .scl and .kbd into the appropriate folders located with the program, (C:program files/MOTU/user presets or something like that)
> They'll show up in the drop boxes on the Ethno2 interface.
>
> There remains a bug on Windows- it will fail to name your .kbd. For example it'll say "0" rather than your user .kbd name. But the .kbd remains loaded, so this doesn't affect the performance.
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com<mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "calebmrgn" <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
>>
>> When I drag my tuning to the Ethno 2 tuning window (as instructed) it appears there. But the scale isn't quite accurately in tune. It bears some resemblance, but that's all.
>>
>> When I drag my keyboard mapping into the Ethno 2 tuning window instead of using the presets, the Ethno 2 simply becomes silent.
>>
>> These two files work with the Pianoteq 3, so what needs to be done to make them work with the Ethno 2?
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

Dear Carl,

On 10.06.2010, at 20:05, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > Nevertheless, PianoTeq actually does some clever retuning of
> > your Scala files. For example, as a test you may have some
> > relatively simple JI scale and then a copy of that scale
> > transposed by some small interval without transposing the
> > root 1/1. When comparing these two tunings with PianoTeq you
> > will realise that the transposed copy actually is not
> > (or hardly) transposed, but instead its root 1/1 is!
>
> Not sure I'm following you here.
> There is no 1/1 in scala files.
>
1/1 is implicit in a Scala file, exactly.

> Can you give an example?

Sorry, I simply repeat the example I gave in a slightly different wording. I wanted to have some tuning with more than 12 pitches where pitches that are only some comma away from each other are situated in different MIDI channels. So, I wanted to run multiple instances of PianoTeq, one for each channel (and tuning offset). Because 1/1 cannot be transposed I simply accepted that I could do without comma variants of this pitch.

So, I took some Scala file with relatively simple harmonic relations and slightly transposed all its pitches (except 1/1 which is implicit and simply cannot be transposed) and the octave 2/1). However, PianoTeq changed this transposed tuning such that compared with the original tuning it appeared to be untransposed -- except that 1/1 and 2/1 (which have been the only untransposed pitches) had been transposed.

Somewhat surprised I checked the PianoTeq documentation, and indeed it states that the tuning of given Scala files is not left untouched but is optimised for the piano.

Best wishes,
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Is changing the diapason in piano teq and option? 415 - to... 467 in
1 Hz increments I believe.

Chris

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Torsten Anders
<torsten.anders@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Carl,
>
> On 10.06.2010, at 20:05, Carl Lumma wrote:
!
> >
> > Not sure I'm following you here.
> > There is no 1/1 in scala files.
> >
> 1/1 is implicit in a Scala file, exactly.
>
> > Can you give an example?
>
> Sorry, I simply repeat the example I gave in a slightly different
> wording. I wanted to have some tuning with more than 12 pitches where
> pitches that are only some comma away from each other are situated in
> different MIDI channels. So, I wanted to run multiple instances of
> PianoTeq, one for each channel (and tuning offset). Because 1/1 cannot
> be transposed I simply accepted that I could do without comma variants
> of this pitch.
>
> So, I took some Scala file with relatively simple harmonic relations
> and slightly transposed all its pitches (except 1/1 which is implicit
> and simply cannot be transposed) and the octave 2/1). However,
> PianoTeq changed this transposed tuning such that compared with the
> original tuning it appeared to be untransposed -- except that 1/1 and
> 2/1 (which have been the only untransposed pitches) had been transposed.
>
> Somewhat surprised I checked the PianoTeq documentation, and indeed it
> states that the tuning of given Scala files is not left untouched but
> is optimised for the piano.
>
> Best wishes,
> Torsten
>
> --
> Torsten Anders
> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
> University of Plymouth
> Office: +44-1752-586219
> Private: +44-1752-558917
> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
> http://www.torsten-anders.de
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...> wrote:

> > Can you give an example?
>
> Sorry, I simply repeat the example I gave in a slightly different
> wording.

I meant, can you give a pair of Scala files?

> I wanted to have some tuning with more than 12 pitches where
> pitches that are only some comma away from each other are situated
> in different MIDI channels. So, I wanted to run multiple
> instances of PianoTeq, one for each channel (and tuning offset).
> Because 1/1 cannot be transposed I simply accepted that I could
> do without comma variants of this pitch.
> So, I took some Scala file with relatively simple harmonic
> relations and slightly transposed all its pitches (except 1/1
> which is implicit and simply cannot be transposed) and the
> octave 2/1). However, PianoTeq changed this transposed tuning
> such that compared with the original tuning it appeared to be
> untransposed -- except that 1/1 and 2/1 (which have been the
> only untransposed pitches) had been transposed.

Sorry, it's not entirely clear, but the final line in a Scala
file is treated as the period of the scale. Remember, these
are intervals, not pitches!

> Somewhat surprised I checked the PianoTeq documentation, and
> indeed it states that the tuning of given Scala files is not
> left untouched but is optimised for the piano.

I don't think this has to do with any such optimizations.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

Carl Lumma wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>> Is changing the diapason in piano teq and option? 415 - >> to... 467 in 1 Hz increments I believe.
>>
>> Chris
> > Yes, that would be my suggestion also. -Carl

Pianoteq can load .kbm files to set the pitch of the scale. So, assuming you want the scale to start at middle C, you can use something like clinear.kbm:

! Linear mapping with Middle C on standard frequency.
! Size:
0
! First MIDI note number to retune:
0
! Last MIDI note number to retune:
127
! Middle note where scale degree 0 is mapped to:
60
! Reference note for which frequency is given:
60
! Frequency to tune the above note to (floating point e.g. 440.0):
261.625565301
! Scale degree to consider as formal octave:
0

🔗Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

Carl wrote:

> I meant, can you give a pair of Scala files?

I'm not familiar with Pianoteq at all but what Torsten seems to be saying is this. Suppose you have a chord of, let's say, 7:8:9:10:11:12:13:14 in one scale (i.e. the 7 ratios from 8/7 to 2/1). Then you widen all the intervals except the final one by, for example, 5 cents -- i.e. 2/1 doesn't become 1205 cents but all the rest is 5 cents wider -- and save this as your second scale. Then one would expect the synth/sampler/whatever to keep the same pitches for both the 2/1 and the "self-implied" 1/1 in both scales. Surprisingly, it's the other way round -- i.e. the entire pitch is 5 cents lower in the second case, which means that the 8:9:10:11:12:13 now sound the same, though the second scale should set them 5 cents higher than the first, and the 2/1 and 1/1 change to 1195 cents and -5 cents, respectively.

Petr

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

Dear Herman and others,

Thanks for your suggestions concerning using a .kbm with transposition instead. I was thinking of that too and maybe I am doing it like that.

Anyway, I only wanted to make clear that Pianoteq does not leave the given Scala file untouched, but somehow optimises it whether you want this or not. Caleb mentioned that his "tuning is 100% accurate in PianoTeq", and I wanted to warn that this may not be the case 100% but something close to that. Please note that the Pianoteq documentation explicitly mentions that the software is altering tunings.

For the sake of completeness, below are two Scala files which together form 22 Shrutis (actually 23..), split into two Scala files where one is the transposition of the other. This tuning has been proposed by Jacques Dudon.

Best,
Torsten

! coherent_shrutis.scl
!
12 of the 22 shrutis (cycle of fifths from A to D), modal -c with C or 2C
12
!
19/18
9/8
19/16
5/4
4/3
45/32
3/2
19/12
5/3
16/9
15/8
2/1
! allow coherent rendition of many ragas from diatonic and other families
! Modal coherence of the 22 shrutis, Jacques Dudon / AEH 1996

! coherent_shrutis-schismaticTranp.scl
!
complementing 11 shrutis: 96/95 transposition of coherent_shrutis.scl
12
!
16/15
108/95
6/5
24/19
128/95
27/19
144/95
8/5
32/19
512/285
36/19
2/1
! complements coherent_shrutis to 22+1 shrutis
! NOTE: first and last pitch of scale is NOT transposed!

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

Dear Jacques,

On 11.06.2010, at 11:37, Jacques Dudon wrote:
>> I recently tried the microtonal possibiities of PianoTeq myself. I >> liked this software a lot (e.g., besides its expressiveness -- >> missing in a sampling-based instrument like Ethno2 -- the pitches >> and intervals are also more clear than in virtually all Ethno2 >> instruments I tried).
>
> What do you mean by "the pitches and intervals are more *clear*"? In > Ethno2 intervals are supposed to follow scala tunings with > precision, is the problem coming the sample pitches?

I was searching quite some time for some Ethno2 instruments which are tuned accurately enough and where the pitches can be perceived well enough to express the subtleties of your Scala files, but so far I failed to find any that I am really happy with. I would be grateful if others could share their findings in this respect!

I was at first looking at Indian instruments like Veena and Sitar, because these instruments original from a culture where pitch subtleties are important. However, the variants available in Ethno2 are simply not in tune. For example, when using the default 12-TET the middle fifth C-G is rather just, while C#-G# clearly is not. I assume this has to do with their resonance strings, which have not been tuned to 12-TET. Further, for some instruments (e.g., the Veena) with different velocity zones these zones are even tuned very differently, and I am talking here about plain sustained notes that are not supposed to be bend or anything. In any case, this fact makes it very hard to use these instruments with your Scala files. Other instruments are not in tune for reasons I don't quite understand, for example key-instruments like the concertina. Perhaps the authors of Ethno2 felt that it would be idiomatic for such instruments not to be in tune?

Several string instruments, like Koto, Kora or Oud seem to be tuned well enoguh, but their tones are relatively short and I would often prefer a more bright timbre. For example, compared with these the PianoTeq timbres have much longer sustained tones and are also more bright, hence my comment above. Besides, compared with PianoTeq the above mentioned string instruments are very static (of course, as sample-based instruments). Anyway, I will probably stick with these.

> I didn't notice pitches differences myself, but of course > fundamentals of most samples fluctuate with time and you eventually > have to fine tune them to your taste.

What do you mean by "you eventually have to fine tune them to your taste". Do you suggest to modify the given Scala files for each and every individual instrument?

Best wishes,
Torsten

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

Torsten wrote :

> >> I recently tried the microtonal possibiities of PianoTeq myself. I
> >> liked this software a lot (e.g., besides its expressiveness --
> >> missing in a sampling-based instrument like Ethno2 -- the pitches
> >> and intervals are also more clear than in virtually all Ethno2
> >> instruments I tried).
> >
> > What do you mean by "the pitches and intervals are more *clear*"? In
> > Ethno2 intervals are supposed to follow scala tunings with
> > precision, is the problem coming the sample pitches?
>
> I was searching quite some time for some Ethno2 instruments which are
> tuned accurately enough and where the pitches can be perceived well
> enough to express the subtleties of your Scala files, but so far I
> failed to find any that I am really happy with. I would be grateful if
> others could share their findings in this respect!

I don't understand how you come to think of "Ethno2 instruments which are
tuned accurately enough". Am I missing something here ? To me, Ethno2 instruments are
just sounds, how can a sound be "out of tune" ? (we don't talk of (in)harmonics here of course)

> I was at first looking at Indian instruments like Veena and Sitar,
> because these instruments original from a culture where pitch
> subtleties are important. However, the variants available in Ethno2
> are simply not in tune. For example, when using the default 12-TET the
> middle fifth C-G is rather just, while C#-G# clearly is not. I assume
> this has to do with their resonance strings, which have not been tuned
> to 12-TET. Further, for some instruments (e.g., the Veena) with
> different velocity zones these zones are even tuned very differently,
> and I am talking here about plain sustained notes that are not
> supposed to be bend or anything. In any case, this fact makes it very
> hard to use these instruments with your Scala files. Other instruments
> are not in tune for reasons I don't quite understand, for example key-
> instruments like the concertina. Perhaps the authors of Ethno2 felt
> that it would be idiomatic for such instruments not to be in tune?

This is hard to believe. Are you sure you did not applied a microtuning here ?
or : some instruments or loops are noted with -o, that mean they use the scale of the original instrument.
(not advised to use them in the microtonal competition !)

> Several string instruments, like Koto, Kora or Oud seem to be tuned
> well enoguh, but their tones are relatively short and I would often
> prefer a more bright timbre. For example, compared with these the
> PianoTeq timbres have much longer sustained tones and are also more
> bright, hence my comment above. Besides, compared with PianoTeq the
> above mentioned string instruments are very static (of course, as
> sample-based instruments). Anyway, I will probably stick with these.
>
> > I didn't notice pitches differences myself, but of course
> > fundamentals of most samples fluctuate with time and you eventually
> > have to fine tune them to your taste.
>
> What do you mean by "you eventually have to fine tune them to your
> taste". Do you suggest to modify the given Scala files for each and
> every individual instrument?

Not at all, I mean tuning them (p.50 of the manual) by using the pitch controls for each individual sound (if necessary), by semitones and cents.
Up to now I only found it necessary when using drum loops.
- - - - - - -
Jacques

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

Torsten wrote :

You're right. These appear in a few particular keys, and whatever the tuning.
I also noticed that you don't hit the same note on those when you press the same key.
These must be mistakes in the sampling.
Anyway, the sound of this veena is ugly !
I found the concertina not so bad, but you should try the harmonium instead, it seems more reliable but on the other hand it has lots of noises. Nothing's perfect !
- - - - - - -
Jacques

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

Dear Jacques,

On 12.06.2010, at 12:44, Jacques Dudon wrote:
> Torsten wrote :
>
>> Please try out, e.g., the fifths of the Veena yourself, in particular
>> the lower range, and listen to its beating... Same goes for the
>> Concertina etc.
>
> You're right. These appear in a few particular keys, and whatever > the tuning.

thanks for your reply. As I said, perhaps doing instruments like the veena justice in tuning is difficult due to its resonance strings, I don't know. Actually, I happen to like this instrument in Ethno2, because it is a bit more expressive (various timbre shades), in particular its legato variant. Perhaps I use it anyway if the harmony is made clear by some accompaniment...

> I found the concertina not so bad, but you should try the harmonium > instead, it seems more reliable but on the other hand it has lots of > noises.

I like the very direct sound of the concertina and how it reacts. I just mentioned to Caleb earlier today that I find the Indian harmonium useful.

> it has lots of noises.

Some extra sound effects are mapped to the beginning of its pitch range.

Best wishes,
Torsten