Any suggestions for converting an electric to micro?

I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)

So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.

Thanks,

Chris

PS - anyone know anything about this reference from the evil wikipedia?

In order to perfectly solve all intonation problems of guitars; or allow guitarists to use a variety of different musical temperaments (or to play microtonal music) it is necessary for the frets on the guitar to be adjustable. Work in this field has already been done in the 19th century, when Thomas Perronet Thompson (1783–1869) wrote a work on the "Enharmonic Guitar"[30], with ideas which were used by Panormo[31]. Lacote also built a "guitare enharmonique"[32] with movable frets.

PPS - here is the guitar

http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=401&t=1

Please don't cross-post. I normally don't say anything for
music posts, because it's understandable you might want the
widest possible audience.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "christopherv" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order
> to make a microtonal electric. My intent is to use the
> Dante Rosati method of super gluing wire to use as frets.
> (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 7:38 PM, christopherv <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)

Whoooo! Is there a page on this method? I must know!

> So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.

I just worked this out. The formula for an equal temperament is

1-1/(2^(f/d))

where f is the fret and d is the division of the octave. So for the
62nd fret of 31-edo, you get 1-1/(2^(62/31)), or 0.75. For the 31st
fret of 31-edo you get 0.5.

This will give you a number representing the proportion along the
string length where each fret would be placed. To convert this to an
actual distance, multiply this by the length of the string - from the
string's origin on the nut to the string's ending point on the saddle.
So if you have a 65cm string length, multiply all of this by 650mm to
get the distance for each fret in millimeters.

Hope that helps.

> In order to perfectly solve all intonation problems of guitars; or allow guitarists to use a variety of different musical temperaments (or to play microtonal music) it is necessary for the frets on the guitar to be adjustable. Work in this field has already been done in the 19th century, when Thomas Perronet Thompson (1783–1869) wrote a work on the "Enharmonic Guitar"[30], with ideas which were used by Panormo[31]. Lacote also built a "guitare enharmonique"[32] with movable frets.

Or go fretless, a la Neil Haverstick :)

-Mike

Carl,

Are you having a bout of negativity tonight?

If making a microtonal guitar, and thus microtonal music, isn't on topic
then I don't know what is.

Next time I'll cross post with my blackberry :-)

Chris

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> Please don't cross-post. I normally don't say anything for
> music posts, because it's understandable you might want the
> widest possible audience.
>
> -Carl
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "christopherv"
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order
> > to make a microtonal electric. My intent is to use the
> > Dante Rosati method of super gluing wire to use as frets.
> > (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)
>
>
>

As far as I know this fretting technique is word of mouth. I'll be
going to Urbana later this month so I'll talk to Andrew about it.

>> I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)
>
> Whoooo! Is there a page on this method? I must know!
>
>> So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.
>
> I just worked this out. The formula for an equal temperament is

>
> Hope that helps.

Yes indeed!!

>
> Or go fretless, a la Neil Haverstick :)
>
> -Mike

Ohh I may try but Neil is a lot better guitarist than I'll ever be.
BUT I did see this really neat fretless bass in Kokomo Indiana. It had
mother of pearl inlay for each fret position - but no frets. So....
you could see where to place the fingers and still get the lovely
fretless bass sound.

Chris

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> Are you having a bout of negativity tonight?

No, why?

> Next time I'll cross post with my blackberry :-)

Sorry Dave, I can't let you do that...

-Carl

Carl,

I can't help but think you threatening to moderate me for posting about a
microtonal guitar modification, or even posting from a blackberry is sadly
misplaced.

I have been dragged through the mud by Cameron and Michael S. of late and
been the object of misguided off topic bullcrap.
You didn't lift a finger except to say Michael will have the last word to
Franklin.

But Lo! If I were to post from my blackberry that is a major offense.

You know I've tried to be friends with you but often times you come across
like you don't have any sense of balance, consistency or fairness.

If you are going to moderate, or threaten to moderate, why don't you do it
where there is a REAL issue. Like Michael S. and others cursing?

You can't by any stretch of the imagination say that I do not contribute to
[tuning] or [MMM]
Nor can you say I troll either of these groups.

I can only assume you are trying to pick on me because you are completely
helpless to do anything constructive when it comes to the real problems this
forum has.

Chris Vaisvil

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> >
> > Are you having a bout of negativity tonight?
>
> No, why?
>
>
> > Next time I'll cross post with my blackberry :-)
>
> Sorry Dave, I can't let you do that...
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,

Chris, I didn't read your message. Crossposting has been
considered bad etiquette since the lists split. A moderator
has kindly asked you not to do it. Why do you have to try
to create some sort of problem about it?

-Carl

Carl,

There is not 100% same membership in the two groups - in fact many people
receive MMM but not tuning.

Also, how many times in the past have I cross posted a non-music topic
between MMM and tuning?

You know - I'm just going to chalk it up to you having a very bad day.

Chris

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
>
> Chris, I didn't read your message. Crossposting has been
> considered bad etiquette since the lists split. A moderator
> has kindly asked you not to do it. Why do you have to try
> to create some sort of problem about it?
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

Chris,
I have been recreating Dante's 22 tone JI guitar roughly using his methods.
The only technical suggestions I have are:

-1/2 round nickel silver wire is available for the wire jewelry market, and
I think it may be superior to the round wire that Dante uses. It is
certainly working fine on my instrument. I use this product:
http://www.wire-sculpture.com/nickel-silver-wire-half-round/14_Gauge_Half_Round_Half_Hard_Nickel_Silver_Wire_20_ft-387-784.htmlI
got the idea because I know Parker Fly guitars do not use traditional
fretwire, but rather stainless steal half round wire that's epoxyed directly
on to the carbon fiber fingerboards.

-I have had success using common cyanoacrylate glue (ie, super glue, krazy
glue). A glue bottle with a brush inside the cap is useful for controlled
applications to the fingerboard.

I am unsure about what effect (if any) there is using this technique on a
guitar with a radiused fingerboard (like a Strat) as opposed to an
instrument with a flat fingerboard. At the minimum, it's harder to re plane
the surface of the fingerboard (a flat sanding block is easy to make, a
radiused one less so). The wire doesn't come in flat segments anyways, so I
had to bend it flat, so maybe there's not much difference. I believe that
professional luthiers have tools to bend traditional fretwire to a given
radius (tigher, I think, than actually on the guitar when using compression
fretting).

This technique is reasonably robust, but it's certainly possible to pull the
frets off without much fuss. I think it's a pretty good method for tunings
that cannot be accomplished with straight frets, and/or where exceptional
intonational accuracy is desired. It's unfortunately very time consuming --
tuning each fret by ear to a reference tone, and double checking. It's
because of this that I've been lazy on my instrument-- it's only about half
freted, despite the fact that I started the project like a year ago.

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, christopherv <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

>
>
> I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a
> microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super
> gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)
>
> So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the
> microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> PS - anyone know anything about this reference from the evil wikipedia?
>
> In order to perfectly solve all intonation problems of guitars; or allow
> guitarists to use a variety of different musical temperaments (or to play
> microtonal music) it is necessary for the frets on the guitar to be
> adjustable. Work in this field has already been done in the 19th century,
> when Thomas Perronet Thompson (1783–1869) wrote a work on the "Enharmonic
> Guitar"[30], with ideas which were used by Panormo[31]. Lacote also built a
> "guitare enharmonique"[32] with movable frets.
>
> PPS - here is the guitar
>
> http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=401&t=1
>
>
>

Cody, that wire looks perfect.

I think I need to talk to you more!

Chris

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Cody Hallenbeck <codyhallenbeck@...>wrote:

>
>
> Chris,
> I have been recreating Dante's 22 tone JI guitar roughly using his methods.
> The only technical suggestions I have are:
>
> -1/2 round nickel silver wire is available for the wire jewelry market, and
> I think it may be superior to the round wire that Dante uses. It is
> certainly working fine on my instrument. I use this product:
> http://www.wire-sculpture.com/nickel-silver-wire-half-round/14_Gauge_Half_Round_Half_Hard_Nickel_Silver_Wire_20_ft-387-784.htmlI got the idea because I know Parker Fly guitars do not use traditional
> fretwire, but rather stainless steal half round wire that's epoxyed directly
> on to the carbon fiber fingerboards.
>
> -I have had success using common cyanoacrylate glue (ie, super glue, krazy
> glue). A glue bottle with a brush inside the cap is useful for controlled
> applications to the fingerboard.
>
> I am unsure about what effect (if any) there is using this technique on a
> guitar with a radiused fingerboard (like a Strat) as opposed to an
> instrument with a flat fingerboard. At the minimum, it's harder to re plane
> the surface of the fingerboard (a flat sanding block is easy to make, a
> radiused one less so). The wire doesn't come in flat segments anyways, so I
> had to bend it flat, so maybe there's not much difference. I believe that
> professional luthiers have tools to bend traditional fretwire to a given
> radius (tigher, I think, than actually on the guitar when using compression
> fretting).
>
> This technique is reasonably robust, but it's certainly possible to pull
> the frets off without much fuss. I think it's a pretty good method for
> tunings that cannot be accomplished with straight frets, and/or where
> exceptional intonational accuracy is desired. It's unfortunately very time
> consuming -- tuning each fret by ear to a reference tone, and double
> checking. It's because of this that I've been lazy on my instrument-- it's
> only about half freted, despite the fact that I started the project like a
> year ago.
>
> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, christopherv <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a
>> microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super
>> gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)
>>
>> So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the
>> microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> PS - anyone know anything about this reference from the evil wikipedia?
>>
>> In order to perfectly solve all intonation problems of guitars; or allow
>> guitarists to use a variety of different musical temperaments (or to play
>> microtonal music) it is necessary for the frets on the guitar to be
>> adjustable. Work in this field has already been done in the 19th century,
>> when Thomas Perronet Thompson (1783–1869) wrote a work on the "Enharmonic
>> Guitar"[30], with ideas which were used by Panormo[31]. Lacote also built a
>> "guitare enharmonique"[32] with movable frets.
>>
>> PPS - here is the guitar
>>
>> http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=401&t=1
>>
>>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> There is not 100% same membership in the two groups

I'm aware of this. That's why I said I look the other way
when it's music posts.

> You know - I'm just going to chalk it up to you having a
> very bad day.

I had a great day, but that's really not where I want this
discussion to go. You haven't answered my question, but I
think I've made my point.

-Carl

Here is the absolutely best and most useful fret-placement calculator in the world:

http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/standard.php

It is, to my knowledge, the only fret-placement calculator that supports non-parallel and split frets. It even loads scala files!

BTW, before you get out the glue and wire, I'd suggest trying a preliminary round with 80-lb-test fishing line wrapped in a spiral. You can tie one end to one of the tuning pegs and the other end to one of the screws anchoring the neck to the body (slightly loosened to expose the shaft, and the tightened down once the fishing line is tied tight). As long as you wrap it tight, it'll intonate as well as wire and is a good way of checking the intonation of your measurements. You can use a razor blade or kitchen knife to make little vertical cuts on the side of the fretboard to act as grooves to hold the fishing line in place, and these cuts will be good landmarks for when you put in the wire. It takes all of maybe two hours if you have a good ruler in 1/100" scale, possibly less time if you really know what you're doing.

HTH!

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "christopherv" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)
>
> So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> PS - anyone know anything about this reference from the evil wikipedia?
>
> In order to perfectly solve all intonation problems of guitars; or allow guitarists to use a variety of different musical temperaments (or to play microtonal music) it is necessary for the frets on the guitar to be adjustable. Work in this field has already been done in the 19th century, when Thomas Perronet Thompson (1783–1869) wrote a work on the "Enharmonic Guitar"[30], with ideas which were used by Panormo[31]. Lacote also built a "guitare enharmonique"[32] with movable frets.
>
> PPS - here is the guitar
>
> http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=401&t=1
>

Hi Chris,

I modified a guitar to make it microtonal in 2007 (you can see a photo of it at www.johnsmusic7.com). I ripped out the existing frets, filled the slots with resin and cut new slots using a special fret saw I bought from Stewart-MacDonald. I also got the fret wire from the same company (go to www.stewmac.com).

As regards calculating the fret positions here's my formula
(1 - (of/ff))*y which is the distance from the nut to the fret.

'y' is the theoretical scale length which should be the distance between the nut and the saddle on the lighest string. The saddle should be in the correct position when you measure 'y' (i.e. the frequency of the 12th fret harmonic should be the same as the frequency of the note produced when pressing the string just behind the 12th fret). The actual scale lengths will be slightly longer on thicker heavier strings but ignore this and just use the 'theoretical' scale length for all strings. You can adjust the saddle *after* the guitar has been fretted and strung.

The 'of' stands for 'open frequency' and the 'ff' stands for 'fretted frequency'.

So if the scale length 'y' is, say, 62cm, the open frequency (of the string) is, say, 345Hz and the frequency of the fretted note is, say, 567Hz then the distabce from the nut to the fret is
(1 - (345/567))*62cm = 0.3915344*62cm = 24.2751328cm.

I've seen a guitar with moveable frets on the net, I think it was on the Huygens-Fokker site. I forget the name of the man with the guitar but the guitar was called a "Vogt guitar" if you want to try googling it.

John.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "christopherv" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)
>
> So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> PS - anyone know anything about this reference from the evil wikipedia?
>
> In order to perfectly solve all intonation problems of guitars; or allow guitarists to use a variety of different musical temperaments (or to play microtonal music) it is necessary for the frets on the guitar to be adjustable. Work in this field has already been done in the 19th century, when Thomas Perronet Thompson (1783–1869) wrote a work on the "Enharmonic Guitar"[30], with ideas which were used by Panormo[31]. Lacote also built a "guitare enharmonique"[32] with movable frets.
>
> PPS - here is the guitar
>
> http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=401&t=1
>

The system used by the Vogt guitar seems very interesting. A while back I
tried to figure out what was going on, and found the patent at
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=vogt.INNM.&s2=guitar&OS=IN/vogt+AND+guitar&RS=IN/vogt+AND+guitar.
As best as I can tell, there are slots in the fingerboards with lots
of
screw holes that frets can be screwed into, and the whole fret mechanism has
a little leeway to slide to exact pitch. I think in the first instruments,
you could only deviate a little from 12EDO, but new instruments based off
this design are obviously microtonal (as per John Schneider's guitar).

The current owner of the patents (and builder of Schneider's guitar) is
http://www.geigen-und-gitarren-chouard-freising.de/ , although he
unfortunately doesn't have a English webpage. It's understandable with the
google translation, anyways. There's also a Turkish luthier who has built a
guitar based off this technology: http://www.tolgahancogulu.com/.

I'd really like a guitar built like this. Tuning at each fret seems like
it'd improve on the accuracy of even the most careful traditional fretting,
and of course you could change tunings if you wanted to (though obviously
not very quickly). I'm wondering if the maker would sell the fretboard
components for the purpose of retrofitting -- a full custom classical guitar
isn't inexpensive, unfortunately.

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 8:04 AM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I modified a guitar to make it microtonal in 2007 (you can see a photo of
> it at www.johnsmusic7.com). I ripped out the existing frets, filled the
> slots with resin and cut new slots using a special fret saw I bought from
> Stewart-MacDonald. I also got the fret wire from the same company (go to
> www.stewmac.com).
>
> As regards calculating the fret positions here's my formula
> (1 - (of/ff))*y which is the distance from the nut to the fret.
>
> 'y' is the theoretical scale length which should be the distance between
> the nut and the saddle on the lighest string. The saddle should be in the
> correct position when you measure 'y' (i.e. the frequency of the 12th fret
> harmonic should be the same as the frequency of the note produced when
> pressing the string just behind the 12th fret). The actual scale lengths
> will be slightly longer on thicker heavier strings but ignore this and just
> use the 'theoretical' scale length for all strings. You can adjust the
> saddle *after* the guitar has been fretted and strung.
>
> The 'of' stands for 'open frequency' and the 'ff' stands for 'fretted
> frequency'.
>
> So if the scale length 'y' is, say, 62cm, the open frequency (of the
> string) is, say, 345Hz and the frequency of the fretted note is, say, 567Hz
> then the distabce from the nut to the fret is
> (1 - (345/567))*62cm = 0.3915344*62cm = 24.2751328cm.
>
> I've seen a guitar with moveable frets on the net, I think it was on the
> Huygens-Fokker site. I forget the name of the man with the guitar but the
> guitar was called a "Vogt guitar" if you want to try googling it.
>
> John.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "christopherv"
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > I just purchased a used Fender Squire strat copy ($60) in order to make a
> microtonal electric. My intent is to use the Dante Rosati method of super
> gluing wire to use as frets. (Which I found out about via Andrew Heathwaite)
> >
> > So does anyone have any suggestions - and one thing I need to find is the
> microtonal guitar fret placement calculator.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > PS - anyone know anything about this reference from the evil wikipedia?
> >
> > In order to perfectly solve all intonation problems of guitars; or allow
> guitarists to use a variety of different musical temperaments (or to play
> microtonal music) it is necessary for the frets on the guitar to be
> adjustable. Work in this field has already been done in the 19th century,
> when Thomas Perronet Thompson (1783–1869) wrote a work on the "Enharmonic
> Guitar"[30], with ideas which were used by Panormo[31]. Lacote also built a
> "guitare enharmonique"[32] with movable frets.
> >
> > PPS - here is the guitar
> >
> > http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=401&t=1
> >
>
>
>